Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

You know how terribly disingenuous it is to go to an OM which has wildly different metagame and power levels and go "see X is banned here. Clearly broken!!!" is? And as was pointed out above me, other abilities that are normally meager in standard metagames are also banned there. S0 please if you're gonna argue, make an argument with points that is actually relevant to this tier.
normally i'd agree with you, but in this specific case i think it's worth bringing up. the thing about those abilities is that they're only "normally meager" because the mons they're attached to are shit. the abilities themselves are broken when freed from their mons and given the opportunity to be on a more optimal thing. that's what i consider "broken" in ability terms. good as gold happens to already be on the most optimal mon for it—an extremely splashable spinblocker and mortalspinblocker. i genuinely think ghold would be a fine mon and an excellent addition to the tier without the ability, but there's no way to separate the two
 
And in the same meta, stakeout, innards out and neutralising gas are also banned. It may seem like comparing an om to SV OU is a little bit silly because they are completely different metas that only share a few traits with each other.
Good as gold is a really amazing ability, and potentially (and that's a big potentially) broken, but let's not act like it's stopping people from removing hazards. The derth of removal options is what is stopping people from removing them, as we have 4 options total (5 if you count glim, but that dies so fast so I don't count it). Banning ghold will only make corv better and even then not by a whole lot. The other defogger are either trash (like Scizor trying to defog is insane) or already bypass ghold (like talon or geezing).

damn daddybuzzwole he dropped u in fight night and now on the forums.... it's getting crazy bros
 
Mental herb raging bolt on sun teams to stop waterpon and valiant from ruining your sweep with encore.
Just wait until I pull with taunt to ruin their careers
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Got uh... got a link to that? Would love to see it (big salty kong fan here)

Also speaking of Garganacl, wow it feels like it's been on fire lately. It's been surging in prevalence and usage, and it feels like it's only possibly gonna get to be more so if people keep exploring it as they have been. Anyone got any unusual sets for Garg, or just any general sets you think are the best right now?
Glowking laughs of the face of Garg as it freely chillys out and bring out bad ground types. This is assuming no eq garg, which is rare to see from my experiences.
 
Got uh... got a link to that? Would love to see it (big salty kong fan here)

Also speaking of Garganacl, wow it feels like it's been on fire lately. It's been surging in prevalence and usage, and it feels like it's only possibly gonna get to be more so if people keep exploring it as they have been. Anyone got any unusual sets for Garg, or just any general sets you think are the best right now?
i think the most unusual set i've seen sorta-kinda-work is tera ghost curse. that was a long time ago and i doubt it can still survive in a more modern ecosystem, but ghost curse and salt cure do a lot of damage together, curse works well on garg pre-tera too, and the self-damage isn't as devastating when you have recovery. i think the set is kind of bad and it's more of a testament to how good salt cure is that even a set like this can hold its own. i also once fought an eject button garg that was presumably some sort of anti-pult "haha you can't click uturn and now valiant comes in for free" option (not sure why they were using garg and valiant on the same team), but i didn't have a pult on my team so it didn't work
 
I'm going to reiterate something I said before whenever the Cheese Man came up: even if Gholdengo is not broken or the most pressing thing in the tier, I fundamentally hate this Pokemon because by design it's made to have nothing besides the most boring and linear type of counterplay imaginable. Let me reiterate that GaG is part of the package, not the whole reason, but this doesn't mean I think the ability is fair either (Magic Bounce is a similarly strong ability held back by a very limited user pool).
  • Gholdengo is immune to any form of reliable status infliction (procs are low odds, GaG blocks targetted moves, and its typing renders its immune to Toxic Spikes)
  • Gholdengo is immune to non-Damage Phazing moves (and of those that "work" only Dragon Tail is remotely relevant)
  • Gholdengo is immune to Taunt in combination with Nasty Plot and Recover so it's never locked out of snowballing or a long-game option
  • Gholdengo is a Special Attacker so no momentum loss from Lando's Intimidate
  • Gholdengo has a SR resistance and reliable recovery so Chip damage rarely sticks
  • Gholdengo has a Signature that is just "Overheat but less crippling" plus one of the most spammable STAB types on its other move
  • Gholdengo's typing makes it resist or ignore 2/3 of the type chart, and 1/4 of its weaknesses only really exist on itself and a mon that really doesn't want to come in against it.
The only real way to play against a Gholdengo and make progress (as opposed to "not dying" like Blissey or certain stall answers) is to shove it with big numbers so it has little time to act in the first place. You can't hit it with status to put it on a timer, can't chip away at it and outheal it, can't interrupt its ability to set up. The only way to make progress against a Gholdengo team while Ghold is out is if you can threaten to KO Ghold directly attacking. Ghost/Steel is a useful typing both offensively and defensively as Aegislash has shown in the past, but now here's Aeglislash trading mixed attacking for not having to juggle Sword Form's bulk, a relevant increase in speed, the means to heal itself, and just ignoring a category of moves outright.

I can't make a strong case that Gholdengo is busted or making the game unhealthy, but this is one of the most unfun Pokemon I have ever seen in a Metagame. Nothing about playing with or against this thing feels fulfilling, and making comparisons to past-Gen Lando or the one to Gen 2 Snorlax feels very off the mark to me. Besides the difference in how Old Gens handle tiering, a major aspect of those mons is that they play by the same rules as the tier around them and compress roles to enable other options as you tailor them, where Ghold just kind of walls out and shuts down playstyles as options. Like, what presence exists in the tier that Gholdengo contributes to keeping healthier (Hazard Control isn't fixed with it gone, but it isn't any better while this thing's here either, so I'm striking that from the conversation entirely)?
 
Interstellar Exploration

I've done some poking around with the Stellar Tera type on a few pokemon and I think it has a little more use than just using scarf Enamorus :enamorus: or serperior :serperior:. Tera is still a stupid mechanic, but this Stellar variant with Tera Blast is a nice way to mitigate the BS variance of lategame tera garbage in games that you otherwise have won.

Here are a few examples of its application in ascending order of Spiciness:

Specs / Metronome Enamorus :Enamorus:
Enamorus @ Metronome
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tera Blast
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Superpower / Substitute (i think sub is better bc of that stupid giraffe)

Scarf Stellar is the most common application on Enamorus, but when you boost up the power you just blast through pretty much everything atfer a single boost. This is a set for Sticky Web teams. If you want to run choice specs, then I'd recommend going Timid. This pokemon I usually nickname "IHATETERA" or "Killer T" for its cytotoxic properties against absolutely pathogenic and unexpected Tera types on things like :Garganacl: :kingambit: :zamazenta:. With Modest, you kill :slowking-galar: with Terablast into earth power. Metronome really gets cooking against fat teams, where you can get free subs vs Gliscor and then go to town.

Adamant Booster Valiant :Iron-valiant:
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Tera Blast

This is a disturbingly powerful breaker. I've posted a team about it before here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...pon-cornerstone-adamant-valiant-1900.3739266/ (I forgot the password to that account. not trying to hide my identity lol.)
+2 Booster CC is disturbingly powerful:
252+ Atk Quark Drive Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 244-288 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Quark Drive Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 442-522 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Quark Drive Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Primarina: 327-385 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


...however, it is really annoying when the fighting weak thing goes tera ghost. Do you click CC and lose, or click Knock Off and lose if they don't tera? hmm great generation. anyway, just click +2 stellar tera blast and it dies, even if it hits neutrally!
+2 252+ Atk Quark Drive Tera Stellar (First Use) Iron Valiant Tera Blast (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 318-374 (93.2 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
yeah....tera flying that you supreme clown.

+2 sneak kills dragapult ez pz

Stellar LO Gholdengo :gholdengo:
Gholdengo @ Life Orb
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Psyshock
- Tera Blast
- Nasty Plot

Q: On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you hate playing vs stall?
A: Yes.


Another pokemon that I use on Sticky Web teams that just flattens stall. Make it Rain is really not all that, so may as well pick a useful move. It 6-0s that :garganacl: RMT in case you want to grief the griefers. LO Hex is disgustingly powerful if you have status support. With this set, you can:
  • OHKO Clodsire with Tera Psyshock
  • 2HKO Clodsire that Tera Darks
  • OHKO Bulky Gambit with +2 Stellar Tera
I think you can run a similar set with Darkrai. or any of the other fast offensive stuff with a +2 boosting move.

Got these "working" as high as low 1900s. I'll append some replays here in a bit.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2131083113?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2126165999?p2


Triple Stellar Webs: :Ribombee::Enamorus::Glimmora::Iron valiant::Iron moth::gholdengo:
I don't think this team itself is all that great - it gets wrecked by a single fire bunny or dragonite, but you can give it a try. Sad that pickpocket balloon :tinkaton: is the only real counterplay that webs has to cinderace.
Specs Enamorus Webs: :Ribombee::Gholdengo::Enamorus::Samurott-hisui::Raging bolt::zamazenta:
SD Samurott with sucker punch is pretty savage. Raging Bolt is the best pokemon in OU to me.

Have fun matchup fishing!
 
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FUCK YEAH; I AM TOP 10 IN THE LADDER LETS GOOOOOOO

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Gonna leave it at that. I know the moment I want more, is the moment the I am getting punished and then the tilt happens. Had to crawl myself back up from the 1800s after some tilt for just ONE missplay that cost the whole game. T.TLuckily I pulled myself together.


Also I have seen a bunch of Sinistcha's on high ladder lately. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2132402691.

I guess it is a good Zama and Tusk check and even serves as a good win-con late-game it seems. Is there anything else I missed that makes the traits of this mon really good?
 
FUCK YEAH; I AM TOP 10 IN THE LADDER LETS GOOOOOOO

Gonna leave it at that. I know the moment I want more, is the moment the I am getting punished and then the tilt happens. Had to crawl myself back up from the 1800s after some tilt for just ONE missplay that cost the whole game. T.TLuckily I pulled myself together.


Also I have seen a bunch of Sinistcha's on high ladder lately. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2132402691.

I guess it is a good Zama and Tusk check and even serves as a good win-con late-game it seems. Is there anything else I missed that makes the traits of this mon really good?
Please teach me your ways TwT (I've only ever peaked to the 1600s)
 
FUCK YEAH; I AM TOP 10 IN THE LADDER LETS GOOOOOOO

Gonna leave it at that. I know the moment I want more, is the moment the I am getting punished and then the tilt happens. Had to crawl myself back up from the 1800s after some tilt for just ONE missplay that cost the whole game. T.TLuckily I pulled myself together.


Also I have seen a bunch of Sinistcha's on high ladder lately. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2132402691.

I guess it is a good Zama and Tusk check and even serves as a good win-con late-game it seems. Is there anything else I missed that makes the traits of this mon really good?

I think you got it down to a T. It spinblocks, it checks some of the most common physical attackers while being a great wincon that neuters special attackers once it gets its CM ball rolling. The thing can outright end a game if given a couple turns, no questions asked

-

I feel like my request was buried under the memes, so let's try again

What are some of the best tera abusers this gen? Assuming you'll tera it almost every time, which ones go crazy? Garg is one ofc, Gambit is another. What are some interesting picks?
 
I think you got it down to a T. It spinblocks, it checks some of the most common physical attackers while being a great wincon that neuters special attackers once it gets its CM ball rolling. The thing can outright end a game if given a couple turns, no questions asked

-

I feel like my request was buried under the memes, so let's try again

What are some of the best tera abusers this gen? Assuming you'll tera it almost every time, which ones go crazy? Garg is one ofc, Gambit is another. What are some interesting picks?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Ampharos Dazzling Gleam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 434-512 (106.6 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I think you got it down to a T. It spinblocks, it checks some of the most common physical attackers while being a great wincon that neuters special attackers once it gets its CM ball rolling. The thing can outright end a game if given a couple turns, no questions asked

-

I feel like my request was buried under the memes, so let's try again

What are some of the best tera abusers this gen? Assuming you'll tera it almost every time, which ones go crazy? Garg is one ofc, Gambit is another. What are some interesting picks?
Honestly, gliscor seems like it needs to tera constantly. Yes, it can work amazingly non-tera'd but with the amount of ice/water moves flying around, it constantly has to watch out.
Another one is dragonite, as it needs tera normal to get those to rolls to truely clean and tera normal provides that.
 
Honestly, gliscor seems like it needs to tera constantly. Yes, it can work amazingly non-tera'd but with the amount of ice/water moves flying around, it constantly has to watch out.
Another one is dragonite, as it needs tera normal to get those to rolls to truely clean and tera normal provides that.
I'm not so sure about Gliscor - losing immunity to spikes can fuck him so much. Usually building around Gliscor infers having a teammate that can take the heat instead, but I see what you mean. I'm running extra ice coverage just for the bastard lol
I agree on Dragonite, but I don't think it exponentiates its danger level like Garg and Gambit. I'm sure there's some NU shitmon out there we fully forgot that can take over if it has perma access to the shiny button
 
What are some of the best tera abusers this gen? Assuming you'll tera it almost every time, which ones go crazy? Garg is one ofc, Gambit is another. What are some interesting picks?
I feel like one that flies under the radar a lot is :hydrapple:. Whether it's an offensive regenerator set like mimilimi's hydrapple fat running tera ground to turn would-be checks like Slowking-Galar and Clodsire into mincemeat, or a defensive sticky hold one like SupaGmoney's hydrapple stall that somehow manages to turn Tera Ice into a strong defensive profile that can also answer annoyances like Swords Dance Gliscor, this thing has proven that it can really get going once it sheds the annoying weaknesses of its Grass/Dragon typing and gives itself the coverage it needs, and with underexplored options like Body Press, Pollen Puff, Hydro Pump, and most of the underutilized Tera Blast types, I'm confident that there are still more sets to be discovered with this mon that we haven't gotten to yet. I truly believe that Hydrapple has a strong place in OU with how beneficial Tera is to its gameplan, being able to flip the script and get free Nasty Plots or a random unexpected coverage move to decimate your opponent's best check.
 
Ghold is not banworthy right now or even close. The Defog blocking arguments have been bad for a while now. We see people noting Good as Gold is banned in AAA or ignoring the general lack of Defog distribution, prevalence of Boots, etc. — the ability itself is very strong, but not broken unless the abuser makes it broken. Ghold is a strong Pokemon, but it’s not close to broken levels offensively and its utility doesn’t push it over. I am so tired of reading the same lazy arguments repeatedly for months without any awareness of metagame context.
 
You can for sure make an argument for things like Ogerpon-W, Kyurem, or Darkrai being too much. I will happily listen to those and intend to include things like these two, Dragapult, Kingambit, Moon, Zama, etc. in future discussions and on future surveys, but nothing is blatantly broken now and the borderline things aren’t getting in the way of the tier being playable.

It’s important to not grow passive and eventually I expect some tiering action (probably in June depending on what gets support), but it’ll ultimately be in the hands of the public, not quickbans or anything like that.

Really don’t see a need for more extreme or non-Pokemon action either. Stuff like Booster and Tera Blast aren’t breaking the tier right now.
 
You can for sure make an argument for things like Ogerpon-W, Kyurem, or Darkrai being too much. I will happily listen to those and intend to include things like these two, Dragapult, Kingambit, Moon, Zama, etc. in future discussions and on future surveys, but nothing is blatantly broken now and the borderline things aren’t getting in the way of the tier being playable.

It’s important to not grow passive and eventually I expect some tiering action (probably in June depending on what gets support), but it’ll ultimately be in the hands of the public, not quickbans or anything like that.

Really don’t see a need for more extreme or non-Pokemon action either. Stuff like Booster and Tera Blast aren’t breaking the tier right now.
y'know, i've seen (and made) a lot of complaints about waterpon and kyurem, but almost none about post-hypnosis darkrai, so seeing all three of them in the same sentence here came as a bit of a surprise to me. i haven't really considered darkrai to be broken per se since the hypnosis days, and even that was more a matter of uncompetitiveness than anything else, but i'm definitely open to changing my mind on it. anyone reading this who thinks darkrai is overly oppressive or banworthy, i'm interested in hearing your opinion as to why
 
Alright I've seen it twice on mid high ladder now so I've gotta talk about it

:sv/Iron Crown:
Iron Crown @ Choice Scarf
- Psychic Noise
- Volt Switch
- Tachyon Cutter
- Focus Blast?

This thing is super annoying. As speed control goes it's not the fastest but notably things that do outspeed it like Booster Valiant aren't naturally killing it in one shot. Psychic Noise is just so damn annoying vs balanced teams, eliminating leftovers, preventing mid ground roosts on expected resisted attacks, and synergizing really well with Volt Switch by punishing incoming grounds. Crown naturally threatens a ton of opposing leads, being able to volt switch out of things like sash Dragapult and Darkrai, clearing Glimmora and Ribombee like they weren't even there, and can even win a 1v1 match vs Landorus (probably). 122 SpA is not even bad as well, so these moves hit decently hard and can make a lot of progress. It can even conceivably run Psyshock in the last slot to match up well vs stalls with blissey and clodsire. The only thing it really loses to wholesale is like Ting Lu, which for some reason I have been seeing a lot less of. It also almost never needs to use tera due to its strong natural typing which comes with a ton of resistances. However you could always slot tera blast of a random type in the last slot and probably never really miss the other moves since the main three cover so much of the meta.
 
I took and long break and am now back but still feel like this is always the convo: threat saturation is an issue, but nothing is broken enough to ban, skill curb remains super high but mid ladder players don’t really matter to the council, no one is quiteeee happy with the meta but there’s not real fix, etc.

You can for sure make an argument for things like Ogerpon-W, Kyurem, or Darkrai being too much. I will happily listen to those and intend to include things like these two, Dragapult, Kingambit, Moon, Zama, etc. in future discussions and on future surveys, but nothing is blatantly broken now and the borderline things aren’t getting in the way of the tier being playable.

It’s important to not grow passive and eventually I expect some tiering action (probably in June depending on what gets support), but it’ll ultimately be in the hands of the public, not quickbans or anything like that.

Really don’t see a need for more extreme or non-Pokemon action either. Stuff like Booster and Tera Blast aren’t breaking the tier right now.
 
skill curb remains super high but mid ladder players don’t really matter to the council
This is an incredibly unfair interpretation of things. I spend hours every single week communicating with people and making sure tiering is more accessible than ever to anyone who wishes to follow regardless of origin, experience, competency, etc.

And from a sheer tiering perspective, reqs are always gatekept by certain GXE and availability. This is done by design and for good reason. That’s a constant that goes well before this generation and more people are getting reqs than ever, so it’s silly to use this as a gripe now.

As for the tier itself, the same tools for counterplay are available to everyone. Some people play more and adapt easier while others learn over time — that’s all fine. But this happens in every tier and doesn’t suddenly spite players, but rather it rewards activity and being involved. Not sure what to say beyond I really disagree with this sentiment.
 
Ghold is not banworthy right now or even close. The Defog blocking arguments have been bad for a while now. We see people noting Good as Gold is banned in AAA or ignoring the general lack of Defog distribution, prevalence of Boots, etc. — the ability itself is very strong, but not broken unless the abuser makes it broken. Ghold is a strong Pokemon, but it’s not close to broken levels offensively and its utility doesn’t push it over. I am so tired of reading the same lazy arguments repeatedly for months without any awareness of metagame context.
I think if we do discuss ghold it needs to be based on how much better spinners would be without it and how unhealthy it actually is as a mon if any action comes it's way because I think that might be worth discussing a little bit in a dedicated thread or something

Because ghold may not be a broken mon in any sense, it certainly isn't a healthy one either as I and many others have said
 
If you’re wondering why I haven’t been posting as much high-quality content lately, its because my enjoyment for the tier has lowered.

Reason 1: Matchup Fishing
My main issue with the tier is its matchup fishy nature. Throughout my experience fighting some of the best players on the ladder, I find that for like 55% to 70%, the game is decided on matchups. In this gen its never been easier to 6-0 teams with just a single mon.

Here’s an example.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2128398664?p2

In theory, my opponent’s team has multiple counter measures to Moth, the main one being Future Sight Gking and Sucker Samu, but then I just reveal Tera Dark and it was just over. They may have just preserved their Garg, but there was no telling if it was Tera Dark or the standard Tera Ground.

Surprise tech has always been a thing, but in Gen 9, you could outright lose the game because of it. I’ve even ran into someone using Scarf or Sash Cinderace, just to fuck with Treads leads and Boosters. No reason to run it over ol’ reliable Boots unless you specifically were fishing for HO teams.

There’s something off about it and I couldn’t pinpoint the exact reason why the tier is matchup fishy. The Volc ban eased things but Gen 9 OU still feels like a game of Rock Paper Scissors eerily similar to Gen 5 among other similarities it has with the tier. While it is possible to account for multiple matchups, we run into the next problem with the tier.

Reason 2: Building Difficulty

Teambuilding is always a difficult process of making, testing, and revamping, but SV OU is imo the most difficult to build in. The tier has several fantastic glue mons like Zama, Gambit, Pult, Gking, etc, but with the amount of threats in the tier, it feels difficult to make the most of your slots.

Unless you’re running Stall, HO, or Weather. Most good SV OU teams need to have..

A breaker

Something speedy

Priority cause not having it screws you over most of the time

A rocker

A knock user cause then Boots Spam rolls over you

A Ghost resist cause Pult/Ghold will make your day miserable

A Steel cause Kyurem will ruin you

1 or more pivots cause it makes your life easier

An Electric immune cause Bolt

A Ground immune cause Earthquake and HLR are spooky

A Fairy check

A Wogre check

A Fire resist cause otherwise Cinderace clicks Pyro for free

A way to deal with Tspikes cause of Glimmora

And make sure you have a check to the rest
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etc

Oh and if you’re not running Boots spam, HO, or BO, you need hazard control cause you might get 6-0d by Webs.

This doesn’t seem all bad until you realize you often can’t fit everything you need.

Everytime I build something that isn’t HO, I often end up scrapping it or completely reworking it cause there’s so many flaws. I always end up with same generic team structures like a standard Boots Spam, Cinder/Lando/Gking/Gambit/Zama team, or run BO. Part of all this is contributed to the fact that there’s so many boxes to check and so few options to do so.

Another part is that Tusk, is not as reliable or splashable as it was in previous metas.

:sv/great tusk:

While obviously still fine, it feels awkward to slap on teams. The first reason is that it overlaps with the mons you want to run, mainly Lando and Zama. You could run both but you end up with 2 Water weak/Fairy weak mons with similar roles. This wouldn’t be a problem if Tusk didn’t lose to 90% of the fucking metagame. The things it does check its inconsistent at doing so. Dnite, Gambit, and G-Fire all Tera through it, Raging Bolt OHKOs Tusk with Pulse if it doesn’t have any bulk investment and 1v1s anyways with Tera Fairy. Guess what, Zama and Lando also check these mons and more with better consistency. Around that point I just say fuck it and either run Lando + Cinder or just run no removal at all. Tusk has a 4MSS, wanting Bulk Up to actually beat Tera Gambit and G-Fire 1v1, Knock Off, or Rocks. So you end up needing 1 or 2 extra slots just for that. Tusk almost always needs Boots because Webs just 6-0s it anyways, but it would love having Helmet to punish Gambit/Zama/Dnite or Lefties for recovery, which means you need secondary hazard control for Webs anyways. Tusk has a hard time investing in bulk because it needs to power and speed to consistently vs Ghold, hence why the only good Tusk set is offensive. Unless we see a new meta altering set for Tusk that shoots it back up to top 3 status, I consider Tusk to be overrated with a meta that’s unkind to it. Teams that rely on Tusk to spin are difficult to pilot, let alone build, because it doesn’t do enough defensively compared to other Grounds or Zama.

This meta’s issues are problems with no clear solutions. The random movepool cuts and power level being higher than in previous gens made things a mess, but I think there is a direction we can go to make things better. There are two mons I would like to see get suspected.

:sv/ogerpon-wellspring:

This is the most broken mon in the tier rn and several players agree. Wogre is the single best breaker in OU off of a great speed tier for its role and having a 0 drawback base 100 power Water STAB that crits for some reason cause fuck balance ig. You can straight up spam Cudgel most of the time because Water types are scared of you, its free chip vs Dragons, and Wogre can pair itself with mons that punish Grasses who don’t even reliably check it btw besides Amoonguss. Sinistcha dies to +2 Knock and needs to land a burn to beat it, Serperior isn’t real anymore, Rilla takes over 40% from Pwhip and doesn’t OHKO back without Tera, and Wo-Chien dies to U-Turn. Before you say Hydrapple

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 410-484 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

and this shit does nothing back.

You can even run Trailblaze + Encore which 6-0s some offenses.

Suspecting Wogre after or during WCOP is the best course of action rn, because removing it makes checking everything else easier. Wogre’s checks like Dnite, Zama, and Pult are needed for other things, hence they can be preserved in a game-to-game basis.

:sv/gliscor:

This is a controversial take, but this shit is broken. The utility sets are fine, there’s several mons in the tier that take advantage of it, but it’s the SD sets that push it overboard. It lacks the immediate power of Wogre or Kyurem but it outlasts all its checks and has plenty of opportunities to come in. Name a longterm check to this……You can’t. Either they don’t punish Gliscor significantly enough, or they get worn down by Knock + hazards. Even Skarm/Corv lose longterm since Gliscor can stay in the game long enough to burn their Roost pp. Gliscor is so tanky on the physical side that it can just dump points into SpD for Hexpult, Moonblasts, and random special hits that otherwise 2HKO you. Your best response to Gliscor is to run Corv + fast mon with Ice moves or bring Encore (or run HO). That is if Gliscor doesn’t decide to just go for the win with Tera Normal or Water or Fairy. This is made harder by the fact you can’t predict if it is SD. You could pivot into something like Wogre, then it just Toxic’s it or sets up hazards. Gliscor is a contributing factor to the MU fishy nature of SV OU, because its matchup vs offense isn’t great but it farms the hell out of Balance and Stall. While Gliscor provides benefits to the tier defensively, but the dynamic it creates harms the meta in the long run.

There are other mons some players have argued for a suspect, but those are the two main ones I think we should get out of the way. I’ve been back and forth with Zama, but imo it fixes more problems in the builder than it creates. Its too soon to act, but we should have this discussion until the time comes to take action.

:swole:Stay strong OU
 
So nothing is broken,

but there is a huge problem with the tier.

Though unless something is so blatantly obviously broken high end players won’t budge. Which matters a lot because not only are their opinions weighted higher than other players, but they also tend to be the only players capable/driven to get reqs. If that’s the case thoughevery suspect test will end like Kyurem/Gouging Fire.

There is a problem with the tier though.

Several of the “glue” mons of the tier have a whole host of unhealthy elements to their kits. Sweeping teams on preview, forcing teambuilding concessions, creating unfun game patterns, but since they've been around since the beginning of the tier or are there to check other "glue" mons no one dares touch them. You can go on for hours about how they're bad for the tier, but because they bring one healthy element to it it has become a "Git Gud" mentality surrounding them. No problems here!

Though if we're being honest there is something wrong with the tier.
 
Though unless something is so blatantly obviously broken high end players won’t budge.
This is so silly. We have had bans with 2 of the last 4 suspects and more than ever throughout the generation. And it’s not even close.

I said after the Gouging Fire suspect that there would be more suspects and bans despite people thinking the community was resisting change. And look what happened in the next suspect? A big ban that freed up things.

So when you have the person in charge literally this morning say a survey is coming and action is possible in June + mentioning a few possible candidates, why is it someone’s default reaction to going doomer and implying nothing will happen??? Like do you guys actually want to enjoy your hobbies or are we just going to fear monger for the hell of it now?
 
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