SP isn't consistent because there aren't consistent abuser of it. Hatterene is still one of the few that CAN use the strategy. But also no lol, Magwould still be horribly broken so long as we're in a Tera metagame. And I'd question if no tera would even make it less palleatable.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
SP isn't consistent because there aren't consistent abuser of it. Hatterene is still one of the few that CAN use the strategy. But also no lol, Magwould still be horribly broken so long as we're in a Tera metagame. And I'd question if no tera would even make it less palleatable.
...
I actually agree with this last line. When Magearna was here, I saw it was broken but for me it was less broken than it was in SS. Magearna could use Tera as an extra tool to be more unpredictable, but thing is, just like Gliscor or Scizor for example, any of the 18 Tera types made it defensively worse than the base dual typing it has. Opponents meanwhile could run Tera Fire to wall any Magearna set that wasn,t Tera Ground/Water. Without Tera, other Mons lose way more than Magearna (who also would have less Fire types to worry about).
I actually agree with this last line. When Magearna was here, I saw it was broken but for me it was less broken than it was in SS. Magearna could use Tera as an extra tool to be more unpredictable, but thing is, just like Gliscor or Scizor for example, any of the 18 Tera types made it defensively worse than the base dual typing it has. Opponents meanwhile could run Tera Fire to wall any Magearna set that wasn,t Tera Ground/Water. Without Tera, other Mons lose way more than Magearna (who also would have less Fire types to worry about).
The thing about banning a "part" of a Pokémon (I think the exceptions are Last Respects and Shed Tail, which tbh, without those moves the Pokémon that have these moves are inexistant in OU, so it's a "gift" to lower tiers) is that it opens a can of worms we don't want to enter.
Like, it would start up discussions like "let's unban Lugia but it can't use Multiscale" "Let's unban Genesect but it can't use uturn" or shit like that. On paper one or two bans can be cool and all (and tbh I could kinda agree with those bans if it's on an early gen on a really bad spot) but in current gen? It's the Pandora's box
Like, it would start up discussions like "let's unban Lugia but it can't use Multiscale" "Let's unban Genesect but it can't use uturn" or shit like that. On paper one or two bans can be cool and all (and tbh I could kinda agree with those bans if it's on an early gen on a really bad spot) but in current gen? It's the Pandora's box
You're right in that aspect. I was more trying to talk about how typing wise Hydregion is outclassed by roaring moon in just typing alone. Like although it's water, grass, fire, and ghost resist, roaring moon is just better overall if you want that typing so much. You do bring up a point about Darkai and I'll make sure to add it in. Thanks!
I was like, OK, then if Magearna is reintroduced then Kyurem would be specially oriented most of the time so that's more control over the situation, and then I saw
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
However I must say that after the great "Oh shit Kyurem has Body Press" kerfuffel of a couple weeks ago I haven't seen a significant shift in opinions, everyone seems to be waiting for the storm but without knowing where it's coming from
I will admit that I only suggested Mag bc it's like top 5 fav mons design-wise for me, but then again so is Skymin, so I guess my criteria ain't the best one.
I will say tho, whenever I get risky and started bringing shitty teams and lose ELO I pop my ol' Psyspam + SP Cresselia team and go back to 1400 immediately so that will be my SP user of choice for the rest of the gen lol
I was playing lots of ADV UUBL last month for RoA and I enjoyed it massively, and this month I've been grinding USUM UU, and although I've been a strong Tera supporter and still am, there's something about knowing about type matchups with certainty lol
I assume its not what you think, smogon doesnt "nerf" things for gamefreak, stuff gets put in tiers based on the balancing of gamefreak, so removing an integral move of oger's kit is basically balancing it for gamefreak and not just banning an uncompetitive move because of its mechanics (stuff like bp, shed tail and last respects are just undeniably stupid and can turn a relatively bad pokemon into uber level, and so its a special case there, where the move is banned not the pokemon.) Theres nothing particularly special about ivy cudgel its just one of the many things in oger's kit that makes it great. Banning is meant to be as simple as possible and just dissecting ogers kit to make it balanced is not how its really done here. Similar to what achohermano said, we could technically bring any mon to ou power level by just nerfing it by banning moves abilities on it etc, which is a massive can of worms and just not how smogon tiering is done.
In the forums, at least, it seems you will be hard pressed to find people defending Kyurem. I don’t really see any compelling DNB arguments being made. We’ll have to see what the survey vote is.
Body Press is one tool in Boots Kyurem’s arsenal but it can just as easily run Scale Shot instead to break AV Glowking and get a speed boost.
Special Kyurem is the posterchild of “Anti-4MSS” in that it gets everything it wants in three moves and the last one is just gravy.
I have seen people running physical Dragon Dance Kyurem with Freeze Dry to kill Dozo/Mola. DD Kyurem doesn’t really need Scale Shot at all. Tera Blast Ground, Icicle Spear, Freeze Dry is all it needs to take on almost the whole meta outside of one-time checks like Balloon Steels (which can lose to Tera Blast Fire if that ever becomes popular).
Kyurem is just too versatile. Any individual set would be alright but the combination of Specs, Boots, and DDance possibilities makes it a bit too much to prepare for and difficult to predict. I think a Kyurem ban would be a good step to reduce the strain on many teams in the builder.
No yeah I'm 100% with u on this, boot the grey dragon, but I mean that, even if our little echo chamber there's uproar, so was there uproar last time. I don't know if another suspect would work at all. It seemed super clear that it was going to get banned last time and it wasn't that close. Same w GFire.
This is the most frustrating thing to me personally. I've run into a lot of Kyurem's and nearly every single one has had a different set; There's mainstays of course like Ice Beam/Freezedry and then Ground, but the last two slots are fucking anything. It makes it incredibly difficult to go "okay I need my SPA/Steel type" or "alright I need something thats a bit bulkier with tera" to try and survive its potential hit.
I ran into a Tera Ghost team that legitimately just played around it being healed and revived back to back. Was it a bit gimmicky? yeah, but did it fucking suck cuz the bastard hits so hard everytime it comes back on the field? Oh, you know that answer
Anyways, on a funnier note, one big reason I love Mandibuzz lately:
+1 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mandibuzz: 236-278 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
At which point it then OHK's back with Foul Play. Another funny one is Mandibuzz being tanky enough to live a +1 Moon which if you land a toxic prior lets you effectively sit there and wall it, or mash Foul Play if you suspect it'll Dragon Dance again. Very fun pokemon, too bad about gold though
It's about whether or not Ivy Cudgel is broken or not on enough Pokemon to justify banning that instead of the mon. I'm aware of this. My argument was it was broken on 3 out of 4 Ogerpons. However, most people don't think it's broken enough on Cornerstone for this to be warranted.
As for what makes Ivy Cudgel strong, most high crit moves and many physical attacking moves in general hover around 80 BP or less and/or have drawbacks like lower accuracy for Stone Edge and Crahammer or two turns for Sky Attack. Leaf Blade and Attack Order are at 90 power, but also with typings that have many natural resistances. And even then, Grass Cudgel is still stronger BP than Leaf Blade with no drawbacks.
Something like Rock Ivy Cudgel is a 100% Stone Edge that gets further boosted in power by the corresponding mask item.
Liquidation is a go to physical Water STAB, at base 85 power with a chance at a 20% defense drop. Watefall is 80 BP with a 10% flinch chance. Aqua Tail is 90 BP and only 90 accuracy. Crabhammer is 100 BP, 90% accurate, and with a high crit chance that is only distributed to a very limited number of pokemon in the first place. Water Ivy Cudgel is 100 BP, 100% accurate, and a high crit chance. It is vastly superior to the other physical attacking Water moves.
Obviously, there are other factors at play here and my argument is going nowhere. But to suggest there is nothing particularly special about Ivy Cudgel is wrong. It's better than virtually every other physical attacking move of all its types.
yeah, magearna is just a really fucking stupid mon no matter how we slice it. no tera? cool, it still has arguably the single best defensive type combination and fairy stab with ground coverage, and its opponents won't be able to use tera to change their terrible matchups against it to slightly-less-terrible-but-still-terrible matchups. no stored power? cool, it still has the specs breaker sets, and the cm setup sets, and the shift gear mixed setup sets, and the defensive pivot sets, and the spikes sets, and the defensive-pivot-and-spikes sets, and a million bullshit niche things like trick choice and screens and eject pack trick room and weakness policy and the list just keeps going and going like the fucking energizer bunny. if people really wanna use magerna they can just go to uubers where it's a top-tier mon and use it there
Better than the basic attacking moves widely available but plenty of signature moves are about as strong, and it isnt an undeniably uncompetitive mechanic of a move, it just hits slightly harder, the move is not distinctly broken enough to warrant a specific ban instead of the mon itself is what im saying. And i was saying that imo cornerstone not being broken with it, is not the reason why its a bad idea. Its that in concept we shouldnt be attempting to balance mons by removing things from their kit (unless very specific cases where the move is undeniably broken on any pokemon, or uncompetitive) , the mon should just be banned if they're broken.
Last edited:
been using magnezone but sadly stuck in 1600s.
I think it's a positive testament to your skill and Magnazone'a capabilities to even get that far.
Not really kicking ass since I've been floating around 1500-1600 for a while now, but there are two Mons I've been going back and forth on my teams
Both Milotic and Vaporeon fill this unique niche of annoying SpDef wall with Scald and Flip Turn access.
Vaporeon doesn't have Recover, instead having to play slowly running Wish/Protect + Flip Turn which is similar to Alomomola, though much tankier on the special side. Regenerator is much better, but Mola can't go SpDef without AV. Water Absorb is a hell of an ability too - it entirely cockblocks enemy Flip Turns, as well as turning the Walking Wake matchup into a breeze because their safe button (Hydro Steam) is now useless. Water Absorb allows for some weird shit Tera-wise like Ground to fuck with Raging Bolt, or Fairy if you really want to make Wake miserable lmao
Milotic is a bit more straightforward with Recover and access to stuff like Ice Beam to surprise Gliscor, or Haze to blank Gholdengo, or even Whirlpool if you really want to safe turn and generate some funny check-mate scenarios. I really like running Competitive on it to heavily punish Defog. Enemy Corviknight Defogs in front of what seems like a passive bulky pivot and suddenly Scald + Ice Beam 2hkos their entire team. And yeah, webs.
Last edited:
I mean, I just take issue with the idea that Ivy Cudgel only hits slightly harder. It's more than that, particularly when you factor in bonus multipliers like the masks off of already higher BP. I do agree that there are no other special mechanics, besides maybe slight but ultimately unremarkable consideration for the crit chance, where it could warrant a ban from a pure mechanic standpoint. In this case, you are right but perhaps missing my initial point.
Waterpon is a wallbreaker, which is under suspect due to a number of factors, but mostly the power. Moves like Last Respects do get potentially removed if the power level becomes too problematic. But Rage Fist notably didn't because Primeape wasn't deemed as broken with it. This is also why Houndstone was initially banned instead of Last Respects before Basculegion proved the move was broken, even though it was probably obvious in a vacuum that Last Respects was uncompetitive nonsense. Then Houndstone was unbanned.
It is examples such as these why I felt the discussion had precedent and was warranted to consider if Ivy Cudgel was broken on enough of the Ogers. This was obviously not seen as the case by most. However, this is why I have that Cornerstone sticking point.
So I saw finch talking on a podcast about the possibility of a solgaleo test, and considering when ausma had a room tournament that it was just good and not overbearing it could be okay. But considering how good iron crown is, Solgaleo could be too much since it is just iron crown deluxe in a lot of ways.
Definitely would be down for solgaleo to have a test since there is a good chance it could be fine but I am a little skeptical of whether it would be fine or not because again, solgaleo is effectively Iron Crown deluxe
Definitely would be down for solgaleo to have a test since there is a good chance it could be fine but I am a little skeptical of whether it would be fine or not because again, solgaleo is effectively Iron Crown deluxe
Last edited:
Well, the movelist is part of what makes a Pokémon, and you got tiering rules down very well - the way to prove that Cudgel is problematic (and end up in a ban) is if all Pokémon with access to it end up being broken with it. Cornerstone is strong, but not broken or even top tier with Cudgel. Base Ogerpon is not even OU with Cudgel, so this kinda falls apart, you know?
Iron Boulder has Mighty Cleave which is REALLY fuckin good but since the Pokémon carrying it isn't cracked it's not even up to consideration. A very fringe example is Cotton Guard - give it to any OU-worthy Mon and it would break the tier in half, but it wouldn't cause the move to be banned: the target is on the Pokémon breaking it instead - the move is proven to be fine on Altaria and others, so the hammer falls upon the abuser.
So if my brain is working right, it falls in this order of events for Wogerpon/Cudgel:
There is a broken mon running around.
Is its high power level in large part caused by access to a move? Yes, Wogerpon with Waterfall would be MUCH less dangerous.
Is the move available to other Pokémon? Yes. All 4 formes have it.
Are other users broken with the move as well? No. Hearthflame would be as busted if it had Flare Blitz or any decent fire-type attack. Cornerstone and Base are not top tier despite access to the move and the same stats, with typing and Ability differences.
That should be enough to cover it but there is one more thing gluing the whole thing: Wogerpon does not have Water-type attacks other than Ivy Cudgel. Without Cudgel, Wellspring does not even have a Water STAB. Banning moves has precedent, but it is the exception - restricting Pokémon is the default. Banning Wellspring is much less complex, and it doesn't neuter other formes that aren't guilty of war crimes.
Personally, I wouldn't appreciate Solgaleo's presence in OU. With all the set variety it will have (Choice Band, Mixed Attacker, CM Special Attacker, Teleport Pivot), it will be hard to account for all the possible sets. While its excellent bulk will make it good for trading against the enemy team's threats (especially with Tera), I don't think this will be worth it given the headaches Solgaleo likely will create in the builder.
I believe tiering action should focus on what is already in OU rather than introducing yet another centralizing threat to the meta. I remember when people were talking about Darkrai being mid, and some were even calling it a UUBL mon, and now it has proven itself to one of the best breakers in the tier. Volcarona proved to be broken once again, so I'm glad that it was banned, but it goes to show that dropping Uber Pokemon to OU doesn't always make teambuilding easier.
I believe tiering action should focus on what is already in OU rather than introducing yet another centralizing threat to the meta. I remember when people were talking about Darkrai being mid, and some were even calling it a UUBL mon, and now it has proven itself to one of the best breakers in the tier. Volcarona proved to be broken once again, so I'm glad that it was banned, but it goes to show that dropping Uber Pokemon to OU doesn't always make teambuilding easier.
Last edited:
There's Assault Vest Primarina and Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui, but both are shaky if switching into a supereffective attack from Expert Belt Darkrai (Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast respectively). There's also Assault Vest Iron Hands, but it's also shaky if Darkrai is carrying Psyshock. Special Defense Dondozo is also a reasonable option against Darkrai although you'd be compromising your match-up against physical attackers. Special Defense Tinkaton can switch in and use Thunder Wave on Darkrai to cripple it, but it's not reliable. Otherwise, you have to rely on outoffensing Darkrai with Booster Energy or priority. It's best to beat Darkrai with offensive pressure than trying to wall it.
Last edited: