OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[YubelVT]

Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned

^ that is part of every Smogon ruleset. If your opponent reports you for using this strategy on the ladder, you will get DQ’d. If you bring this to a tournament, you will automatically lose.

This is not really a tiering question at all, but moreso if we can find a way to more proactively enforce the Endless Battle Clause for these cases which I can try to look into. This whole thing isn’t limited to Sand Attack either, it could also be forced by paralysing and trapping a mon with limited attacking pp although it’s obviously a little harder that way / maybe requires more luck. Regardless, intentionally forcing endless battles is already against the rules and not a concern in tournaments. For now, on the ladder, I’d encourage ppl to just report opponents who use this if they’d like to save some time and enjoy free ELO.

(Vap be cool)

A few things
1. Sand Attack was an issue well before this was discovered and made consistent, because it (had the chance to) enable Ninjask pass to just ignore every single phazer other than Haze Gengar and Perish Song Celebi/Misdrevous. There's literally zero reason to keep accuracy lowering moves legal because all they have ever done is enable unhealthy things.
2. What the fuck was the point of the soundproof ban now that Ninjask players have discovered Octillery? Just fucking ban Ninjask and suddenly 50% of the problems with this tier are gone.
3. Ladder and tournament are not the same thing, you people (tournament organizers and members of the oh so helpful oldgen council) need to recognize that, transition tournaments to best of 3 (there's not a single good argument against doing this), and then split policy from there.

One last thing, the oldgen council's phobia of complex bans is fucking ridiculous. The ONLY reason Aldaron's Proposal is looked back on harshly is because it was short sighted and only targeted rain. If that targeted sun and sand too, it wouldn't have been so bad. Complex bans will not turn away the new player (and quite frankly, if anyone is turned away because they can't use baton pass on ninjask or something, fuck them). Frosslass had ZERO reason to be banned in DPP. NInjask has ZERO reason to not be banned in ADV. Even if a ban on speedpassing as a whole is the correct decision (which is a more complex ban than banning Ninjask), the fact that your fucking policy minded bureaucrats don't let tiers attempt nuanced approaches to things is inherently a problem.

modedit by vapicuno: please keep things professional, and please keep your language civil thank you. Failure to comply will result in infractions (in other words, please be nice). I have removed the offending material but there is still language and tone in this post that really shouldn't be in the adv metagame forum.

 

[vapicuno]

Imo its very weird to ask a player to not play a battle optimally even if it involves going for a tie. Stalemates arent illegal to go for in chess and the endless battle clause with clearly defined rules for who wins and loses should not be illegal to go for as well.

Indeed, it would be nice to get some clarity on this since it's not a commonly encountered issue. I have an example to share.

I once played a special spam dug p2 mirror, but I got my dug trapped first. As dug was my only cm check, I thought I would probably end up losing if I continued. Thus, I sent p2 into p2, we paralyzed each other, and ended up tying the game because of the endless struggle war.

This raises two issues
1) Should one be disqualified for playing optimally by forcing an endless battle?
2) Even if so, is it reasonable for moderators to decide in such cases that engaging in the endless battle is a conscious decision?

To elaborate on (2), I could have alternately have made the decision to send in p2 because p2 was my best way to beat opposing p2 since it could paralyze all my remaining offensive mons, and I was trying to fish for full paralysis to take it down. It wouldn't be fair to get disqualified from such a genuine intention.

 

[spookysocialist]

I mean, the fact of the matter is that all it takes in gen 3 is a pokemon on each side that have a defense boosting move that isn't bulk up like iron defense or cosmic power. These obviously are incredibly rare but it's more to just bring up the point that in a generation with proportional struggle damage endless battles can actually just happen by something as innocuous as running cosmic power jirachi.

Also sand attack dugtrio has a legit niche in allowing it to not be dead weight vs last mon setup it can't reliably damage, by setting up 6 sand attacks you can set up much better odds vs the last mon setup.

The only actual problem that sand attack has in regards to tiering, the only time people have ever called for any kind of sand attack ban, is when it is combined with baton pass. Just like 10 million other things that people want banned when combined with baton pass. Maybe it's time we actually look at the common denominator here.

 

[YubelVT]

I mean, the fact of the matter is that all it takes in gen 3 is a pokemon on each side that have a defense boosting move that isn't bulk up like iron defense or cosmic power. These obviously are incredibly rare but it's more to just bring up the point that in a generation with proportional struggle damage endless battles can actually just happen by something as innocuous as running cosmic power jirachi.

Also sand attack dugtrio has a legit niche in allowing it to not be dead weight vs last mon setup it can't reliably damage, by setting up 6 sand attacks you can set up much better odds vs the last mon setup.

The only actual problem that sand attack has in regards to tiering, the only time people have ever called for any kind of sand attack ban, is when it is combined with baton pass. Just like 10 million other things that people want banned when combined with baton pass. Maybe it's time we actually look at the common denominator here.

Sand attack dugtrio requires you to both give up an important move on Dugtrio and run an item that isn't choice band on Dugtrio. You can also do this with screech. Like the hypothetical niche you brought up both sucks and can also be done with another move. You're also missing the point being made here in that sand attack makes Ninjask pass (which is already annoying as shit and needs to go) unbearable and forces you to run Skarmory. Skarmory is a great pokemon, but I don't want to feel forced to use him on every team so I don't get cheesed, and even that's not guaranteed because the Ninjask players have discovered Octillery. Sand Attack needs to die, Ninjask needs to die, baton pass in its current state (other than Ninjask [and arguably speed passing as a whole but my opinion on that could be entirely based on salt]) is completely fine in gen 3.

 

[Siglut]

This seems pretty solvable to me - mod the current endless battle clause to tie the game if it is in a loop where neither side takes damage and at least one side is a) out of pp on current mon and b) incapable of switching. No more forced 1k turns nonsense and if you send twave p2 on opposing twave p2 well the game is gonna tie a little faster.
I'm certain the same tired ninjask arguments that get posted every week in here are gonna convince people this time. Keep it up

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned

^ that is part of every Smogon ruleset. If your opponent reports you for using this strategy on the ladder, you will get DQ’d. If you bring this to a tournament, you will automatically lose.

This is not really a tiering question at all, but moreso if we can find a way to more proactively enforce the Endless Battle Clause for these cases which I can try to look into. This whole thing isn’t limited to Sand Attack either, it could also be forced by paralysing and trapping a mon with limited attacking pp although it’s obviously a little harder that way / maybe requires more luck. Regardless, intentionally forcing endless battles is already against the rules and not a concern in tournaments. For now, on the ladder, I’d encourage ppl to just report opponents who use this if they’d like to save some time and enjoy free ELO.

Well, I reported the guy that used the strategy to a moderator, and the latter said that they couldn't punish him because they didn't consider that he forced and Endless Battle.

 

[Star]

Well, I reported the guy that used the strategy to a moderator, and the latter said that they couldn't punish him because they didn't consider that he forced and Endless Battle.

Well if it was this strategy, then they were wrong, but obviously human error with moderators is always gonna be possible when we don't have an automated solution. I've already started the discussion with the PS team about getting this use-case included in Endless Battle Clause so ideally we can just get that implemented soon and it will be a non-issue on ladder as well.

 

[Eeveeto]

All this talk just to avoid banning the elephant in the room, which has always been Arena Trap...

 

[Tree69420]

Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned

^ that is part of every Smogon ruleset. If your opponent reports you for using this strategy on the ladder, you will get DQ’d. If you bring this to a tournament, you will automatically lose.

This is not really a tiering question at all, but moreso if we can find a way to more proactively enforce the Endless Battle Clause for these cases which I can try to look into. This whole thing isn’t limited to Sand Attack either, it could also be forced by paralysing and trapping a mon with limited attacking pp although it’s obviously a little harder that way / maybe requires more luck. Regardless, intentionally forcing endless battles is already against the rules and not a concern in tournaments. For now, on the ladder, I’d encourage ppl to just report opponents who use this if they’d like to save some time and enjoy free ELO.

its like not an endless battle? the opponent just has to crit multiple struggles in a row which is just rng and if we dont want rng to decide games like that then why is sand attack legal in the first place
plus sand attack on jask is dumb af anyways i dont see a single competitive reason to why accuracy dropping should be legal, weve had tournaments run without it (shoutout revival) with no complaints

 

[YubelVT]

All this talk just to avoid banning the elephant in the room, which has always been Arena Trap...

Arena Trap is completely fine in Gen 3. The problem in every single one of these equations is accuracy lowering moves. It's accuracy lowering moves that invalidate all but 4 phazers (Last time I talked about phazing I forgot skarmory has an ability and isn't just a fatass), it's accuracy lowering moves that allow these people to make the trapper switching even work. Every single time it's the accuracy lowering moves. As unfortunate as Vap's P2 ditto example is, that's also an extremely niche interaction that requires some extremely unfortunate RNG and sand to not be in play at all, which, as we all know, is not common at all. As annoying as Arena Trap can be to face, it's not broken in this generation. Gen 3 is unique in that it's the only generation where Arena Trap is completely fine. Anyone who says Arena Trap is banworthy in generation 3 really doesn't know what they're talking about, and that is regardless of how good at mons you are otherwise.

also: erm oneliner much? *nerd emoji finger pointing up emoji*

 

[Darkk]

Well if it was this strategy, then they were wrong, but obviously human error with moderators is always gonna be possible when we don't have an automated solution. I've already started the discussion with the PS team about getting this use-case included in Endless Battle Clause so ideally we can just get that implemented soon and it will be a non-issue on ladder as well.

Bro you are literally OGC leader just ban sand attack / flash / accuracy modifier evasion moves. No one gonna miss it. If endless battle still a problem then address afters. Theres no downside to removing BS evasion / accuracy strategy


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141622576-ieajroyx52g8s31yv9iyydtyo5fue23pw

This replay is some of the most vile thing I have seen in a while, which is saying a lot cuz I just seen Blunder gameplay in WCoP

 

[Kahila911]

This seems pretty solvable to me - mod the current endless battle clause to tie the game if it is in a loop where neither side takes damage and at least one side is a) out of pp on current mon and b) incapable of switching. No more forced 1k turns nonsense and if you send twave p2 on opposing twave p2 well the game is gonna tie a little faster.
I'm certain the same tired ninjask arguments that get posted every week in here are gonna convince people this time. Keep it up

Well if it really is brought up every week it may be worth examining the reason

All this talk just to avoid banning the elephant in the room, which has always been Arena Trap...

Yes, but the only things with Arena Trap are Digglet, Trapinch and Dugtrio, two of which are bad and the last one struggling to do damage without being extremely commital with a Choice Band set, unlike later gens where it can use Life Orb or Expert Belt, or gets buffed to 100 base attack in SM

 

[YubelVT]

This seems pretty solvable to me - mod the current endless battle clause to tie the game if it is in a loop where neither side takes damage and at least one side is a) out of pp on current mon and b) incapable of switching. No more forced 1k turns nonsense and if you send twave p2 on opposing twave p2 well the game is gonna tie a little faster.
I'm certain the same tired ninjask arguments that get posted every week in here are gonna convince people this time. Keep it up

What are the ninjask arguments you speak of? And why are they wrong? Indulge us peons if you think we're wrong

 

[Sevenor3]

what makes sand attack competitive if things like sand veil or snow cloak are deemed uncompetitive? one is called "evasion" and the other is called "accuracy" and they both result in the same effect of moves that should not be missing, missing. nobody would miss it, and its in line with our tiering of not allowing evasion boosting (in this case its accuracy instead of evasion but truthfully if a council member told me accuracy dropping was ok because you could switch out i'd request for them to be removed). cacturne is kinda chill as the spiker with the best offensive prescence too, so we lost more by banning sand veil than we ever will by banning sand attack
if sand veil isnt ok then sand attack isnt ok. ban sand attack and we can be done.

 

[Kahila911]

what makes sand attack competitive if things like sand veil or snow cloak are deemed uncompetitive? one is called "evasion" and the other is called "accuracy" and they both result in the same effect of moves that should not be missing, missing. nobody would miss it, and its in line with our tiering of not allowing evasion boosting (in this case its accuracy instead of evasion but truthfully if a council member told me accuracy dropping was ok because you could switch out i'd request for them to be removed). cacturne is kinda chill as the spiker with the best offensive prescence too, so we lost more by banning sand veil than we ever will by banning sand attack
if sand veil isnt ok then sand attack isnt ok. ban sand attack and we can be done.

* And Mud Slap, Flash, Kinesis, Octazooka, Smokescreen and Muddy Water

 

[YubelVT]

what makes sand attack competitive if things like sand veil or snow cloak are deemed uncompetitive? one is called "evasion" and the other is called "accuracy" and they both result in the same effect of moves that should not be missing, missing. nobody would miss it, and its in line with our tiering of not allowing evasion boosting (in this case its accuracy instead of evasion but truthfully if a council member told me accuracy dropping was ok because you could switch out i'd request for them to be removed). cacturne is kinda chill as the spiker with the best offensive prescence too, so we lost more by banning sand veil than we ever will by banning sand attack
if sand veil isnt ok then sand attack isnt ok. ban sand attack and we can be done.

Sand Attack is probably competitive to people because you do have to lose momentum in order to lower the accuracy where Sand Veil is just present. That argument is very stupid and very wrong because you can say the same thing about ohko moves and evasion boosting moves.

 

[Siglut]

What are the ninjask arguments you speak of? And why are they wrong? Indulge us peons if you think we're wrong

The ninjask arguments are the ones that have been posted in here by you and others. I think they are wrong because ninjask is not remotely good. My experience playing against it (with skarm teams that obviously are good vs it as well as spikeless no phaze offense that people complain about being an automatic loss) is that it is not very hard to beat. The accuracy drop set isn't even the best set on a terribly unviable mon.

This endless battle thing is a more convincing reason than ninjask pass to ban accuracy drop moves, but given that it's already a violation of endless battle clause we just have an enforcement problem rather than a rule-changing problem. To address a more recent comment you made, I personally (I do not in any way speak for the council or anyone with authority) do not see sand attack as "competitive," but it is an interesting option to prevent setup or cripple an opposing lastmon. This might sound callous, but there's a reason our tiering is done by experienced players, and it's because we should not be banning or clausing out strategies that new players have a hard time with when they actually have some legitimate use in high-level play.

 

[Sevenor3]

The ninjask arguments are the ones that have been posted in here by you and others. I think they are wrong because ninjask is not remotely good. My experience playing against it (with skarm teams that obviously are good vs it as well as spikeless no phaze offense that people complain about being an automatic loss) is that it is not very hard to beat. The accuracy drop set isn't even the best set on a terribly unviable mon.

This endless battle thing is a more convincing reason than ninjask pass to ban accuracy drop moves, but given that it's already a violation of endless battle clause we just have an enforcement problem rather than a rule-changing problem. To address a more recent comment you made, I personally (I do not in any way speak for the council or anyone with authority) do not see sand attack as "competitive," but it is an interesting option to prevent setup or cripple an opposing lastmon. This might sound callous, but there's a reason our tiering is done by experienced players, and it's because we should not be banning or clausing out strategies that new players have a hard time with when they actually have some legitimate use in high-level play.

Ninjask is dogshit into any team with phazing, but can borderline insta win into some other teams. Its not overpowered or even good, people just dislike its presence since it punishes otherwise solid teams fairly arbitrarily, and steers the tier even further into TSS domination

 

[Siglut]

can borderline insta win into some other teams

What are these other teams? You don't have to tell me I don't actually want to get into a drawn-out argument over this. My experience in playing this tier tells me that ninjask is very beatable with just about any team. If the team you're using is automatically losing vs ninjask every time, you should consider changing the team or learning that matchup better.

 

[YubelVT]

The ninjask arguments are the ones that have been posted in here by you and others. I think they are wrong because ninjask is not remotely good. My experience playing against it (with skarm teams that obviously are good vs it as well as spikeless no phaze offense that people complain about being an automatic loss) is that it is not very hard to beat. The accuracy drop set isn't even the best set on a terribly unviable mon.

This endless battle thing is a more convincing reason than ninjask pass to ban accuracy drop moves, but given that it's already a violation of endless battle clause we just have an enforcement problem rather than a rule-changing problem. To address a more recent comment you made, I personally (I do not in any way speak for the council or anyone with authority) do not see sand attack as "competitive," but it is an interesting option to prevent setup or cripple an opposing lastmon. This might sound callous, but there's a reason our tiering is done by experienced players, and it's because we should not be banning or clausing out strategies that new players have a hard time with when they actually have some legitimate use in high-level play.

Ninjask players have discovered Octillery dude, those teams can very easily get into a position where phazing is restricted to 3 pokemon, 2 of which are tiered as OU. Also, you are part of the problem where tournaments and ladder are being treated as the same thing when they really are not. Ninjask adds nothing to the tier other than an unhealthy matchup fish strategy and accuracy lowering moves add legitimately nothing to the tier. There is no reason for either of them to be legal. Also, for the record, Vapicuno should be on the council over Star and is maybe the most overqualified player on the entire forum to be on the Gen 3 OU council

 

[Celdanami]

Also, you are part of the problem where tournaments and ladder are being treated as the same thing when they really are not. Ninjask adds nothing to the tier other than an unhealthy matchup fish strategy and accuracy lowering moves add legitimately nothing to the tier. There is no reason for either of them to be legal.

I'm going to put my 2 cents in before this spirals into some onesided narrative. Ninjask is a part of the game, get over it. I don't play this team style, but I like facing it. The fact that such a fringe team archetype with statistically low usage and success rates is causing this kind of outcry is frankly confusing. If you're bothered by a team that consistently loses to the commonly found 2 phasers on a team, set up mons like metagross, or common structures like V5, then maybe this issue is a you thing. This mon has like, 2% usage or something ridiculously low? This pokemon is not dominating the game with omnipresent, overpowering, unbeatable strats.

ADV OU has an entirely unique team archetype that forces fast and dynamic gameplay. I think this is a sign that the game is healthy. I appreciate that ADV offers players willing to take on the risk, the chance to 'put all their chips in one basket'. I like the creativity in the builder this affords. I like the game play where each player must make the correct play in order to either continue or end the speed pass sequence. If you argue that ninjask teams are all linear, then I don't know what to say other than that take is just wrong. Each player has a variety of lines they can take and they have the choice of when to reveal those lines: bluffs, fakeouts, pivots, traps, and proactively hiding information. Ninjask teams enable otherwise unviable mons, strategies, and reward creative team building on both sides. And yet, they are simply ruined by the presence of two phasers, commonly found OU mons, and a laundry list of good moves found on good pokemon.

And most importantly, I love playing arcanine, which sits on these ninjask teams for days and I don't want one of this mon's few niches gone from ADV lol.

Ninjask is uncompetitive cheese that sees no high-level use? It has limited counterplay?

"Baton pass is severely nerfed. Ninjask used to be kind of busted." Of note in this game, the speed is roared out and the subsequent magneton is dug trapped, demonstrating punishing counterplay that decides the game's outcome in a swift, decisive sequence.

Ninjask is not fun? It's not creative?

The highest viewed video on the channel. A hype match with insane team building. The commentators piss themselves laughing as the game unfolds. "How many times are you going to click Giga Drain?!" "This is highly illegal, what you two are doing!" "Thank you for blessing us [with this replay]."

This was from a quick search. I'm sure if I went digging I'd find plenty more examples, both on the ladder and in tournament.

I can accept that there are some uncompetitive aspects of Ninjask teams. Although I did not like the swagger simple ban, I accept it because it addresses one of those aspects of Ninjask teams. I would also accept action taken on sand attack. But action on Ninjask entirely? That's stupid and I hope I've outlined why. Action on speed boost would also be stupid #protectyanma.

TLDR: I like facing Ninjask teams. Jask teams create unique and engaging gameplay that feels very different than the standard tss vs tss. I like that the weight of my decision making feels greater every single turn. I like that the outcome is decided by risk management and proactive gameplay. 100% accuracy lowering moves are stupid. And most importantly, don't fuck with Arcanine's one good MU c:

 

[Kahila911]

Ninjask is a part of the game, get over it. I don't play this team style, but I like facing it.

Yeah bro so is Latios, yet we banned that

For a real arguement, Celdanami, I believe you're ignoring the point that the accuracy dropping moves are what are deemed uncompetitive, which is only exacerbated by Ninjask teams being so reliant on getting that pass on something that can KO stuff before you can Roar or KO it yourself. These moves, in Gen 3 affect phazing moves such as Roar or Whirlwind, lowering their accuracy to 75%, which, as any person who has used Aerodactyl before can attest to, can make or break a game.

 

[YubelVT]

I'm going to put my 2 cents in before this spirals into some onesided narrative. Ninjask is a part of the game, get over it. I don't play this team style, but I like facing it. The fact that such a fringe team archetype with statistically low usage and success rates is causing this kind of outcry is frankly confusing. If you're bothered by a team that consistently loses to the commonly found 2 phasers on a team, set up mons like metagross, or common structures like V5, then maybe this issue is a you thing. This mon has like, 2% usage or something ridiculously low? This pokemon is not dominating the game with omnipresent, overpowering, unbeatable strats.

ADV OU has an entirely unique team archetype that forces fast and dynamic gameplay. I think this is a sign that the game is healthy. I appreciate that ADV offers players willing to take on the risk, the chance to 'put all their chips in one basket'. I like the creativity in the builder this affords. I like the game play where each player must make the correct play in order to either continue or end the speed pass sequence. If you argue that ninjask teams are all linear, then I don't know what to say other than that take is just wrong. Each player has a variety of lines they can take and they have the choice of when to reveal those lines: bluffs, fakeouts, pivots, traps, and proactively hiding information. Ninjask teams enable otherwise unviable mons, strategies, and reward creative team building on both sides. And yet, they are simply ruined by the presence of two phasers, commonly found OU mons, and a laundry list of good moves found on good pokemon.

And most importantly, I love playing arcanine, which sits on these ninjask teams for days and I don't want one of this mon's few niches gone from ADV lol.

Ninjask is uncompetitive cheese that sees no high-level use? It has limited counterplay?

"Baton pass is severely nerfed. Ninjask used to be kind of busted." Of note in this game, the speed is roared out and the subsequent magneton is dug trapped, demonstrating punishing counterplay that decides the game's outcome in a swift, decisive sequence.

Ninjask is not fun? It's not creative?

The highest viewed video on the channel. A hype match with insane team building. The commentators piss themselves laughing as the game unfolds. "How many times are you going to click Giga Drain?!" "This is highly illegal, what you two are doing!" "Thank you for blessing us [with this replay]."

This was from a quick search. I'm sure if I went digging I'd find plenty more examples, both on the ladder and in tournament.

I can accept that there are some uncompetitive aspects of Ninjask teams. Although I did not like the swagger simple ban, I accept it because it addresses one of those aspects of Ninjask teams. I would also accept action taken on sand attack. But action on Ninjask entirely? That's stupid and I hope I've outlined why. Action on speed boost would also be stupid #protectyanma.

TLDR: I like facing Ninjask teams. Jask teams create unique and engaging gameplay that feels very different than the standard tss vs tss. I like that the weight of my decision making feels greater every single turn. I like that the outcome is decided by risk management and proactive gameplay. 100% accuracy lowering moves are stupid. And most importantly, don't fuck with Arcanine's one good MU c:

You almost have an argument but remember the soundproof ban? May as well not even happen. 220+ Octillery at +2 outspeeds the entire tier and base 105 Special Attack is extremely workable. You don't even need to run timid, Modest Octillery at 252 speed outspeeds everything except Jolteon and Aerodactyl at +2 as well. Combine this with a successful subpass and it suddenly defeats zapdos, which otherwise destroys it. Yes, suicune can beat it 1v1, but that becomes extremely hairy the moment a layer of spikes hits the field.

TLDR: there's no reason to ban a shit pokemon in Octillery when we can ban the problem with all but like 2 of the baton pass nerfs in Ninjask. Also Arcanine fucks up the OU steels something fierce and all 3 are pretty common

 

[Siglut]

remember the soundproof ban? May as well not even happen.

Re this and you saying octillery shuts down my argument as well. 1 the soundproof ban was not because exploud was too good at sweeping it was because Mr mime could shut down roars mid-chain. 2 octillery doesn't really solve anything with 0 spatk boosts and it should be limited to at most 2 speed boosts, where it still gets outrun by aero unless it's timid. I mean this thing has 105 base spatk it's not really cream of the crop out here.

If your team loses to speed boosted octillery you were gonna lose to starmie anyway. If you traded away something that could stop octillery and then you lost it's your own fault.

 

[YubelVT]

Re this and you saying octillery shuts down my argument as well. 1 the soundproof ban was not because exploud was too good at sweeping it was because Mr mime could shut down roars mid-chain. 2 octillery doesn't really solve anything with 0 spatk boosts and it should be limited to at most 2 speed boosts, where it still gets outrun by aero unless it's timid. I mean this thing has 105 base spatk it's not really cream of the crop out here.

If your team loses to speed boosted octillery you were gonna lose to starmie anyway. If you traded away something that could stop octillery and then you lost it's your own fault.

Couple things
1. I'm fully aware of why Soundproof was banned, Octillery is just the new recipient for these jask teams and, in my opinion, you should not be forced to run haze on gengar or perish song on celebi/gengar in order to not get cheesed/put into a position where you can't out whatever they pass to next.
2. Banning Ninjask would improve the team comp diversity of the tier because you wouldn't be forced into Skarmory, Celebi, or Gengar in order to not get cheesed. Don't get me wrong, all 3 are great pokemon, but I do not want to have to put at least one of them (and dedicate at least one moveslot on the latter two) to not get cheesed.
3. All of the teams I've ever built bar like 5 have lead Zapdos, and most of those have been roar (not just for ninjask but for lead electrics too). However, Skarmory is the ONLY roar user immune to Toxic, and again, I don't want to be forced to use Skarmory to not get cheesed.

Ninjask teams don't encourage diverse gameplay, they have one gameplan and you, the opponent, are forced into one response. Most people agree that this just isn't fun. (Celda I love you I think you're sick but ADV Revival showing ninjask gameplay doesn't not make it uncompetitive cheese) Sand Attack, which is banworthy in its own right, only adds to this uncompetitive mess of a playstyle by making it even more volatile and forcing Skarmory, Celebi, and Gengar again to consistently not get cheesed.