Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Avira]

From the survey responses, Darkrai was the only mon whose numbers from the qualified demographic of survey takers differed significantly from that of the general playerbase. It shows Darkrai is significantly more effective at the tour level and high ladder than other parts of the ladder. While I don't think it has enough support for a ban right now, it's probably the closest we'll get to a ban if there is a suspect test. It'll be interesting over the course of a suspect test to see whether players optimize using Darkrai further or whether more common and splashable counterplay (No, I don't consider Muk-Alola splashable. Zamazenta is the main reason Darkrai isn't an even bigger issue right now) arises.

 

[BobbyHill]

Yeah it’s a bummer, but 3.4 is still a pretty notable score. I think balance will be down bad for quite awhile though. The question of “what can switch into Kyurem?” remains unanswered.

I seriously agree with you on Kyurem. It's the mixed sets that push it over the edge. DD Loaded Dice with Icicle Spear, Freeze Dry, and either Earth Power or Tera Ground Blast is nasty stuff. For what it's worth, it got the second-highest survey score after Darkrai so hopefully that amps up discussion a bit.

 

[EpicGuy321]

I don't know why I gave Darkrai a 2 on the survey, if I could go back in time I'd have given it a 5. 135 spatk and 125 speed by itself is nuts considering that is more than Valiant (and Darkrai doesn't need +1 to outspeed important stuff), AND that Darkrai is actually pretty bulky for its offenses. Beating this mon basically means sacing 2 guys to scout and KO or having to take chip on Zamazenta/sac a mon then go Zamazenta. Oh and it can tera poison to flip all of its weaknesses before hitting you with a Sludge Bomb. Also, Deoxys-Speed is the only mon that outspeeds Darkrai and can hit it for SE post-tera.

Darkrai also resists Sucker Punch from Kingambit, and post-tera also resists Grassy Glide. Not only is the mon fast, but it can resist the two most common forms of priority in the tier.

Maybe we can start running Lokix?

 

[EpicGuy321]

Yeah it’s a bummer, but 3.4 is still a pretty notable score. I think balance will be down bad for quite awhile though. The question of “what can switch into Kyurem?” remains unanswered.

Glowking + a flyer, which is on like every balance team?

edit: well it's not that simple if Glowking gets chipped

 

[Anchor9]

The sad part of all this is that Tinkaton does extremely well into the current broken threats. It can wall Darkrai, punish Choice Specs Kyurem and wall some of the DD sets while crippling both these Mons with Thunder Wave, or just KO them with its STABs. It can wall Gliscor with Air Balloon and force it out with Ice Hammer. It has the Speed tier to use Encore. Like it’s so fast it outspeeds Lando-T! It can Encore Raging Bolt and Kingambit. It can Encore and Thunder Wave Gholdengo of all things thanks to Mold Breaker!!! Honestly if Tinkaton got Recover the Meta would be saved.

 

[BobbyHill]

Glowking + a flyer, which is on like every balance team?

edit: well it's not that simple if Glowking gets chipped

Specs tears through Glowking. Which everyone seems to forget. As you said, if Gking takes chip, it’s in trouble. Kyurem can be paired with another power special attacker (like Bolt) which can wear down Gking. Boots sets, mixed sets, and physical sets punish Gking switch ins. Glowkings pivot move giving Kyu a defensive boost is also not very cool.

AV Glowking or Crown are prob the best answers. But if “Gking + a flyer” were enough, balance would be good.

kyurem can def be beaten with proper sequencing hazards, and offensive play. But balance really struggles to handle it.

 

[Avira]

Darkrai only barely got more support. I think between the two getting a suspect, personally I would go Kyurem again because Kyurem is definitely more limiting on teams even if darkrai is a guessing game sometimes, Kyurem I think if banned would cause more change and progression in the metagame personally and feels like it would be a more impactful suspect but we shall see where we go from here since both are defnitely around the same score and both seem like the same problem level, but I think another Kyurem suspect might be the move as banning it is more likely to change things than banning darkrai as not much really changes if we get rid of darkrai in comparison.

• Qualified: 3.5 / 5
• General: 3.1 / 5

Darkrai received lots of support, rating higher than any other Pokemon listed among the qualified demographic. It is going to be at the forefront of our discussions in the immediate future.

• Qualified: 3.4 / 5
• General: 3.3 / 5

Kyurem received the second most support, trailing only Darkrai. It is obviously still a strong option in the metagame and we will see where the future takes it with regards to tiering.

I don't know about you, but this clearly reads to me that Darkrai is almost certainly the next suspect test. I also believe banning Darkrai will absolutely have a larger effect on the meta than banning Kyurem will, making Darkrai the right suspect target.

 

[Avira]

Darkrai's are higher sure, but the scores are still very close amongst qualified players. Kyurem being a 3.4 and Darkrai being a 3.5 is a relatively small margin of difference, as having a roughly 0.1 difference is a pretty small margin all things considered. Point being they both could easily have action down the line and will both be at the forefront from here on out. Also the unqualified scores on Kyurem are higher so do with that info as you will. Point being they are extremely close in terms of support for action

Finchinator has repeatedly cited that they only use the data from the qualified pool of survey takers to make a decision on tiering action. There are plenty of times when the OU council outright ignored the numbers from the general playerbase, and I suspect this time will be no different. Finchinator already deliberately said that Darkrai is at the forefront and didn't do so for Kyurem, so trying to spin them as both being at the forefront is not true.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Finchinator has repeatedly cited that they only use the data from the qualified pool of survey takers to make a decision on tiering action. There are plenty of times when the OU council outright ignored the numbers from the general playerbase, and I suspect this time will be no different. Finchinator already deliberately said that Darkrai is at the forefront and didn't do so for Kyurem, so trying to spin them as both being at the forefront is not true.

Okay I get the point, he did say darkrai is at the forefront. You have a point, still insane how it was a 0.1% margin between kyurem and darkrai as far as the qualified playerbase to be honest. Darkrai may be at the forefront but kyurem is literally right behind it in terms of support.

 

[PastaMechKaku]

0 Atk Big Nugget Kyurem Fling (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%)

This 'mon is so unserious. I thought it running DD with no physical moves was the most insane stunt it could pull. Part of me almost wants this thing to stay just to see what kind of wack-ass 4'th move it will whip out. Like, is bro going run Glaciate to screw with offense by lowering their speed? Is it going to throw up a screen during its downtime to keep vomiting attacks? Truly ignorant privilege being able to fuck around with its 4'th move cause the other 3 are just that broken together.

 

[Magcargo]

The sad part of all this is that Tinkaton does extremely well into the current broken threats. It can wall Darkrai, punish Choice Specs Kyurem and wall some of the DD sets while crippling both these Mons with Thunder Wave, or just KO them with its STABs. It can wall Gliscor with Air Balloon and force it out with Ice Hammer. It has the Speed tier to use Encore. Like it’s so fast it outspeeds Lando-T! It can Encore Raging Bolt and Kingambit. It can Encore and Thunder Wave Gholdengo of all things thanks to Mold Breaker!!! Honestly if Tinkaton got Recover the Meta would be saved.

Indeed, Tinkaton is awesome. That being said, I sometimes wish it were a bit better. Imagine if it had a little bit more bulk, Spikes, recovery options like a strong Draining Kiss or Pain Split, and even a pivoting option like Volt Switch - that would be pretty cool. This Pokemon would no doubt save the metagame and make OU great again.

Thankfully, this dream Pokemon is no mere fiction - its just one-two unbans away from saving our metagame. Lets hope the council aims to ban Stored Power + Tera Blast and bring Magearna home.

If there was any time we needed her defensive talents, it would be now.

I'm pretty glad that the general community views are pretty aligned with my views on the metagame. I haven't been playing as much recently but I try to sneak a few games in everyday at the mid 1800s so I'm somewhat still in the loop with the metagame.

I ended up voting 2 on everything but bolt, which was a 1, and zamazenta, which feels like 3 just because it's so consistent at cleaning out games but even thinking a little more on it I feel like I probably should have given it a 2. The metagame feels pretty good overall and all structures are appearing decently often and I'm not finding that many games are won through cheese unless said cheese is some absurd rng. My enjoyability was a 9 and competitiveness was 8 as a result.

As far as other suggestions, I meant to suggest the sun lion but I forgot about it but it's whatever just because the meta feels really good rn.

As far as innovations with the surveyed pokemon to keep an eye out for, adamant waterpon is what physical kyurem wishes it was, with stupid power and also just happens to outspeed +speed kyurem by 2 points. Taunt darkrai also seems underutilized ime, especially given that it lets it really abuses typical switch-ins like ting-lu, slowking-g and clod while offering a great way to shut down suicide leads.

This last one is just theorycrafting so it gets it's own paragraph but, for kyurem, I remembered that fling kyu-b was used in gen 8 ubers to muscle past ndm so, what if kyurem used fling to beat glowking? Boots kyurem causes a lot of trouble for balance builds by forcing a lot of pivoting around it's moves and glowking tends to be the answer to the special boots set. Since ice beam does 25-30%, this fling calc, 0 Atk Big Nugget Kyurem Fling (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%), is absolutely huge since it lets it beat it's most splashable counter 1v1 90-something% of the time. Obviously you lose the longevity of boots but a more aggressive structure could use this to bust glowking for zama or val, ghold takes 48-58 for bold and 78-92 for offensive which ensures both get knocked out after the switch or, at the very least, heavily crippled + losing the balloon before tossing kyurem. It doesn't hit anything else but what's important is it doesn't need to since beam/freeze/ep hits the rest of the tier.

Big Nugget Fling seems interesting. A big issue I have with a lot of mixed Kyu tech is that it just thuds into various Fairies / Fairy-Teras, with the main annoying one being Garg. That being said I think you could possibly use this with Tera Steel Flash Cannon to also nuke Garg, which would be pretty cool. Tera Steel Flash is doing over 60% to Garg, so you can safely click it against that, and go for the big Fling on Gking. Issue is that you are screwed against Blissey, which would be annoying.

 

[RS25802580]

Yeah it’s a bummer, but 3.4 is still a pretty notable score. I think balance will be down bad for quite awhile though. The question of “what can switch into Kyurem?” remains unanswered.

AV Iron Crown or AV Scizor backed by Mola Wish support is what I’m going to build with next. Glowking gets messed up bad by mixed sets. I’ve recently been running into Loaded Dice Icicle Spear + 3 Special Attacks Kyurem that seems designed to bait in and destroy Glowking to clear the way for Valiant in the back.

 

[NoelYoshi]

SV OU tiering survey results are up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-10157039

Enjoyment and competitiveness up noticably, Darkrai and Kyurem get most support, and some funny honorable mentions

Not to derail the thread, but a request in regards to surveys. Commonly in the past, when survey scores were released, the distribution of recorded scores and responses were provided to show the full data set of responses. Can we return to this? I think it would be beneficial to the community's knowledge and affirm the authenticity of the survey practice to see the full range of scores.

 

[Finchinator]

Can we return to this? I think it would be beneficial to the community's knowledge and affirm the authenticity of responses to see the range of scores.

The distribution was only that of unfiltered responses from Google Docs -- this included the respones of hundreds of spammers, trolls, people without accounts, etc. rather than qualified data

Now that we swapped to forum based surveys, it is a lot easier to generate data and have reliable figures + saves hours of combing through trolls, but it comes at the cost of those sleek (albeit normally unreliable) distribution graphics. I can likely replicate it with something similar in Excel though -- that should be easy and I will think about it next time.

 

[BobbyHill]

AV Iron Crown or AV Scizor backed by Mola Wish support is what I’m going to build with next. Glowking gets messed up bad by mixed sets. I’ve recently been running into Loaded Dice Icicle Spear + 3 Special Attacks Kyurem that seems designed to bait in and destroy Glowking to clear the way for Valiant in the back.

Scizor is def the move. If it got roost, it would be perfect

 

[NoelYoshi]

The distribution was only that of unfiltered responses from Google Docs. [...] I can likely replicate it with something similar in Excel though -- that should be easy and I will think about it next time.

Thanks for the response. I realize that it's a small thing in the grand scheme and I may be in a minority of people who actually care about such a thing, but I truly do think that it would be beneficial for the full assessment and discussion of the responses and the metagame overall to replicate this, so I hope that it's something that time can be deemed worth for.

Back to your regularly scheduled metagame thread

 

[littensalt]

Yeah it’s a bummer, but 3.4 is still a pretty notable score. I think balance will be down bad for quite awhile though. The question of “what can switch into Kyurem?” remains unanswered.

its very interesting that if you take both qualified and general scores and match them equally then kyurem beats out darkrai by a singular point(6.7 v 6.6), but im pretty sure qualified voters opinions count slightly more ?maybe im wrong or misinformed but i feel like thats a good guess to make, that extra point on darkrais qualified side and the 2 point difference of general support is what gets darkrai more attention than kyurem despite it in theory being the higher one numbers wise

	Kyurem	Darkrai
Qualified	3.4	3.5
General	3.3	3.1

 

[EpicGuy321]

The sad part of all this is that Tinkaton does extremely well into the current broken threats. It can wall Darkrai, punish Choice Specs Kyurem and wall some of the DD sets while crippling both these Mons with Thunder Wave, or just KO them with its STABs. It can wall Gliscor with Air Balloon and force it out with Ice Hammer. It has the Speed tier to use Encore. Like it’s so fast it outspeeds Lando-T! It can Encore Raging Bolt and Kingambit. It can Encore and Thunder Wave Gholdengo of all things thanks to Mold Breaker!!! Honestly if Tinkaton got Recover the Meta would be saved.

Tinkaton usage would double if it was just two base Speed higher, 94 is so unfortunate

 

[Avira]

its very interesting that if you take both qualified and general scores and match them equally then kyurem beats out darkrai by a singular point(6.7 v 6.6), but im pretty sure qualified voters opinions count slightly more ?maybe im wrong or misinformed but i feel like thats a good guess to make, that extra point on darkrais qualified side and the 2 point difference of general support is what gets darkrai more attention than kyurem despite it in theory being the higher one numbers wise

	Kyurem	Darkrai
Qualified	3.4	3.5
General	3.3	3.1

The general playerbase score does not count whatsoever, so even if the general playerbase rated Kyurem a 4 or higher, Darkrai would still have priority with regards to tiering action.

 

[Anchor9]

Tinkaton usage would double if it was just two base Speed higher, 94 is so unfortunate

If Tinkaton could offensively check Gliscor and Kyurem due to a higher Speed stat, that would be insane. Gamefreak is dumb.

 

[Bold School]

Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip
- Encore

I want to say a two things. First, I love that you are looking at Cornerstone. It is highly underrated. I have my own recent team with a Cornerstone. Great mon. Great showcase.

Second, I love your posts. But I cannot love them and vote the way you do it. So I skipped voting to give your post some love. I didn't care too much about this particular vote, so it was worth the sacrifice. Eventually, I to want to see you do that Wake set. This would have been my vote.

 

[Anchor9]

I want to say a two things. First, I love that you are looking at Cornerstone. It is highly underrated. I have my own recent team with a Cornerstone. Great mon. Great showcase.

Second, I love your posts. But I cannot love them and vote the way you do it. So I skipped voting to give your post some love. I didn't care too much about this particular vote, so it was worth the sacrifice. Eventually, I to want to see you do that Wake set. This would have been my vote.

When did I post that?

 

[Heatranator]

I want to say a two things. First, I love that you are looking at Cornerstone. It is highly underrated. I have my own recent team with a Cornerstone. Great mon. Great showcase.

Second, I love your posts. But I cannot love them and vote the way you do it. So I skipped voting to give your post some love. I didn't care too much about this particular vote, so it was worth the sacrifice. Eventually, I to want to see you do that Wake set. This would have been my vote.

You may have uhh, done the wrong person. It's actually GummyRowlets that does them.
Though it is nice that you like the sets they do.

 

[RS25802580]

I think Scizor deserves a shoutout as an amazing check to Kyurem, Darkrai, Deoxys, Valiant and more.

What makes Scizor really stand out right now is that it’s a potent AV user that packs all of Steel’s best resists while (unlike Glowking/Iron Crown) maintaining a crucial neutrality to Dark and Ground.

Scizor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire/Dark/Fighting/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This AV set turns Scizor into a potent Spdef pivot with a great matchup against many of OU strongest special attackers. It also packs great utility with Bullet Punch and Knock Off. 136 Speed EVs outpaces standard Gambit, Skarm, and Corv.

Good Matchups:


252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Scizor: 94-111 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Scizor always kills with a Close Combat followed by a Bullet Punch

Unlike Glowking, Scizor also wins against mixed Kyurem variants


252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Scizor: 85-102 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 238-280 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then finish it off with a Bullet Punch


252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 232-274 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 368-436 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Other mons that Scizor beats:

While Scizor is not reliant on Tera, the Tera Type is quite customizable. Tera Fire gives you a burn immunity to beat Wisp Pult. Tera Dark boosts Knock Off to beat Ghold. Tera Fighting gives extra assurance against boosted Darkrai and strengthens the power of Close Combat.

Good Partners:
AV Scizor doesn’t like hazards chip so anything that keeps hazards off the field is appreciated. Hatterene has a good matchup against common bulky setters that trouble Scizor like Gliscor and Skarm.

Provides Wish support to keep Scizor healthy and forms a potent slow pivot core.

 

[Roshino]

View attachment 641603
I think Scizor deserves a shoutout as an amazing check to Kyurem, Darkrai, Deoxys, Valiant and more.

What makes Scizor really stand out right now is that it’s a potent AV user that packs all of Steel’s best resists while (unlike Glowking/Iron Crown) maintaining a crucial neutrality to Dark and Ground.

Scizor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire/Dark/Fighting/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This AV set turns Scizor into a potent Spdef pivot with a great matchup against many of OU strongest special attackers. It also packs great utility with Bullet Punch and Knock Off. 136 Speed EVs outpaces standard Gambit, Skarm, and Corv.

Good Matchups:


252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Scizor: 94-111 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Scizor always kills with a Close Combat followed by a Bullet Punch

Unlike Glowking, Scizor also wins against mixed Kyurem variants


252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Scizor: 85-102 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 238-280 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then finish it off with a Bullet Punch


252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 232-274 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 368-436 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Other mons that Scizor beats:

While Scizor is not reliant on Tera, the Tera Type is quite customizable. Tera Fire gives you a burn immunity to beat Wisp Pult. Tera Dark boosts Knock Off to beat Ghold. Tera Fighting gives extra assurance against boosted Darkrai and strengthens the power of Close Combat.

Good Partners:
AV Scizor doesn’t like hazards chip so anything that keeps hazards off the field is appreciated. Hatterene has a good matchup against common bulky setters that trouble Scizor like Gliscor and Skarm.

Provides Wish support to keep Scizor healthy and forms a potent slow pivot core.

Scizor fucks

Quick add-on: Banded Scizor straight up OHKOs all of the threats listed. (more prediction reliant but Tera Steel enables some impressive endgame sweeps)

Bonus partner: Glowking. Future Sight + Banded U-turn is a fucking nasty douple tap. The only type that resists both is Steel. It also is very low commitment so it'll punch holes into some structures since they will have no answer. Psychotic stuff.