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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-13-heian-alien.3747913/
Darkrai is being re-tested, don't forget to get your reqs! ^^
Darkrai is being re-tested, don't forget to get your reqs! ^^
every one of my builds has no sturdy dark resist. please ban darkrai so my absolute boy hisiuan samurott can claim A tier like he deserves. 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2168745228-hgcu1ewawi5firxlu5k2ykza2ita3s7pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2168745228-hgcu1ewawi5firxlu5k2ykza2ita3s7pw
We should have just banned sleep to be honest. Because I get why we didn't with this technically being a petmod (And I mean I get the argument on them not banning sleep, but I think that has proven to be a mistake.) but sleep is still uncompetitive and probably should have been suspected instead. Because sleep on its own enables a lot of BS that probably shouldn't be able to happen.
I think suspecting darkrai over sleep is the wrong call, because in more offensive gens like this one sleep has proven time and time again that it is broken.
And honestly considering that natdex has more counterplay into Darkrai than SV does when you take sleep out of equation, I personally think this was the wrong call on the part of the council/community. But, I guess we shall see how the suspect goes.
Like if we ban darkrai, what is from stopping other mons from abusing sleep? Valiant is just gonna start slotting in hypnosis to do similar things.
Like I know we didn't get much support on a sleep ban, but with sleep being controversial I think it was worth bringing up considering the current suspect
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Although i do agree we should have banned sleep, i think this thread about sleep clause in NDOU provides useful context. That being said, the petmod argument was never a good one anyway since the existence sleep clause has absolutely nothing to do with natdex mechanics, and even if one assumes it does i'd argue sleep clause would remain the most questionable mechanic choice in the format. In my opinion, we should at least start gen10 without sleep clause.
Sleep hasn't really been an issue in National Dex and, in terms of relevant users, it's only on the more specific, niche and fishy variants of Darkrai or Iron Valiant (Amoonguss and Tangrowth also use sleep in here and in lower tiers but they aren't considered a problem). Darkrai itself is the issue ever since Zamazenta was banned and Z-Hypnosis is just trying to fish a bunch of sleep turns (in order to setup enough Nasty Plots) and having the right matchup where it can usually get away with Dark Pulse + Ice Beam (let's go gambling!) but it's inconsistent.
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Darkrai isn't even broken because of Z-Hypnosis IMO, since that's a huge gamble and sometimes amounts to very little especially when you factor in the 4MSS Darkrai gets with Focus Blast and Sludge Bomb coverage; it's just the overcentralisation it causes with offense teams alike that makes it unhealthy for the tier, as well as certain sets like Nasty Plot 3A sometimes being unwallable for defensive structures. Personally I've never been a fan of tiers that only have offensive teams work and not much else, and Darkrai only encourages this in NDOU, which is why I think it should be banned. It's not necessarily broken i.e too strong or too fast, but while it is fast and strong, there is very little reason to not use it, and therefore, very little reason not to run offensive structures, since Darkrai has effectively zero defensive utility barring the niche Will-O-Wisp Knock Off sets (which from what I've seen are extremely rare and according to other sources they're pretty bad in this tier compared to SV OU), especially compared to Ogerpon-W who at least is useful against opposing Rain structures, even if they both have very similar problems with their power, speed and set versatility.
Why is
getting suspect tested? Imo it's quite ok in the meta with many checks and only bs set is z hypnosis which is cheese and besides that Darkrai is quite manageable. Mainly 
, 
, 
, 
, 
and some more. All of the above mentioned mons live a hit/out speed and threaten back with stab. Also z hypnosis sets get 4mss kinda hard since your last slot is a fight between sludge bomb, ice beam and focus blast; all of which are necessary for coverage
Why is
Well this link you quoted explains why it's being suspect tested.
As for those mons living hits:
Mtar goes down to z focus blast, specs focus blast, +2 focus blast, or normal focus blast after a small amount of chip.
Mega lop can't switch into darkrai more than 1-2 times and it just goes down if it catches a stray focus blast.
Bulky mega scizor gets 2hkod by specs dpulse, and as for non-specs sets, dpulse into z focus blast or z dark pulse is likely to ko in the case of the z focus blast, and guaranteed in the case of the z dark pulse. And if it NPs while you switch into msciz then either z move just ohkos straight up.
Mmedi just dies to two dark pulses, specs or not, so that can't switch in at all.
Scarf lele's taking just under 50% from a dpulse so if rocks are up it's probably only switching in once. If it isn't scarf, it just dies to +2 sludge bomb, dark pulse into z dark pulse, or dark pulse into sludge bomb.
And threatening it back:
Mtar only has a small chance to ohko darkrai after sand chip if it manages to hit stone edge.
Mlop does threaten it back with outspeeding and ohkoing.
Msciz is only doing ~40% with bp, CC is ~70% chance to ohko but that gets outsped so it can't switch in in the scenarios where Msciz gets 2hko'd.
Mmedi doesn't really threaten it offensively because fake out into bullet punch doesn't come close to ko'ing darkrai and it just gets outsped if it uses anything other than prio.
Scarf lele does threaten to outspeed and ohko mtar with mblast, but if it isn't scarf it dies before it can threaten it (if it hard-switched in and took a dpulse or something).
Also in the case of z-hypno, none of these mons outspeed it.
That's my take on this at least, none of these offensive checks can do anything consistently and there aren't really any great defensive checks to it.
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Why is
Mega Tyranitar is shaky as a check since it folds to both Fightinium Z Nasty Plot, Specs Focus Blast. MLop is an emergency switch only as it fears Focus Blast and can only switch in two times maximum (specs dark pulse does 38% minimum) while other coverage moves cross 50% damage on it. Mega Scizor needs to be heavily bulk invested, and is 2HKOd by specs Dark Pulse while also dropping to +2 Z Fighting. Plus, if you're running a Bulky Scizor without bug stab (classic SD tends to run knock+bullet punch alongside roost+SD) then even unboosted Darkrai can overwhelm it with hazards and repeated Dark Pulses, needing just one flinch to break through it. Not sure why MMedi is here because it doesn't check Darkrai at all, being both too frail and too slow, not switching into it. Of Lele sets, only scarf Lele checks Darkrai offensively and it's still shaky, given it can't comfortably switch into Dark Pulse and fears Sludge Bomb.
Regarding Z Hypnosis, you really only need Dark Pulse+Focus Blast as the two form perfect neutral coverage. Remember, if Hypnosis lands whatever switches into Darkrai, Darkrai has potential to get TWO nasty plots, and from there the game can potentially be over right there if you don't have some very specific response (like a CB Tera Normal Dragonite on fast offense).
Darkrai can be a challenge to consistently account for, between the power of Specs and Z sets alone, and I think there's room to discuss the nonsense of Z Hypnosis stealing games purely off RNG (I think the set actually becomes more frustrating because you have to naturally account for Specs/Z already, which makes surprise Hypnosis devastating when it shows up), as well as how frustrating it can be for that awful 20% flinch to kick in and let Darkrai BS past slower but sturdy bulky checks like Toxapex or Heatran, opening the rest of the team up to its menace.
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imo darkrai still isnt banworthy; sleep is. sure most of the mons i mentioned above are quite shaky to check it but the meta as of rn could check/counter it though there are prob some tech that i forgor
Whether or not sleep needs the boot (I would have rather have gotten rid of it earlier but the support wasn't there) isn't relevant. We're judging Darkrai as is now in this metagame, which does include sleep. And for the record, sleep isn't even a breaking point for Darkrai even if I do believe it's an aggravating aspect because of the RNG heavy nature. It's the danger of its versatility and prime two sets.
It's entirely possible (though I don't know how likely) people will come up with new, practical counterplay to Darkrai that ends up making it feel more balanced, but as of now this is why it's being suspected.
ndou chatroom is dead, so i guess i'll yap here
darkrai sus!
personally, i'm on banning darkrai. ever since the ban of zama, which was darkrai's most consistent check, it has rampaged the tier due to how potent it is. boasting a very hard to resist STAB alongside a very respectable 135 SpA makes this monster extremely hard to check defensively. most specially defenses pieces, like gking and iron crown, are blasted by darkrai's STAB, and other resists such as mtar and ting lu never like tanking a focus blast. there is little to none defensive counterplay to this mon, as its nearly unwallable with its strong STAB alongside its colorful coverage in sludge for fairies like clef and tera glisc/crown, while also having focus blast in its arsenal. near nothing in the tier can comfortably switch into specs, which at least can be outplayed using tera despite still being incredibly scary nonetheless. however, i see darkrai's issue being nasty plot. if darkrai successfully pulls off a nasty plot, there is near nothing that can stop it from taking a kill, and it oftentimes mean using your tera or having to sack something to revenge it. however, this doesn't mean switching in your speed control is a good play either; darkrai is able to take sizable chip on speed control like mega-lopunny and urshifu, which despite both resisting dark pulse still cant switch into it consistently. moreso, you have to worry about scarf sets even when you have your speed control in to revenge it, as not only can this mean mega-lopunny being focus blasted to death, but it can also cripple its already limited defensive answers with trick. in general, the plethora of possible sets darkrai can run, alongside near unresistable STAB and nasty plot z sets in its belt means that its almost always punching huge holes in teams. this mon genuinely puts so much pressure on the builder that(alongside other reasons, of course) offenses have become more of a prevalent playstyle and bulkier builds have suffered a lot recently due to defensively unstoppable powerhouses like darkrai.
i dont think banning sleep was the right play. while z hypnosis sets can certainly be annoying to deal with, i find the bigger issue with darkrai to be how incredibly strong it is. not only does hypnosis take up a slot, breaking off important coverage in dropping either sludge or fblast, it is pretty luck reliant and is cheesy at best. more consistent sets like choice specs more contribute to how strong it is due to its unwallable nature.
yo, goated name change btw!
i agree with you, z hypnosis isnt what makes darkrai broken. defensive structures in general suffered a lot this gen with how many offensive threats are in the metagame. it's already hard to deal with iron valiant's 400 possible sets, sword dance hsam's unstoppable spikes and superior offensive typing, dragon dance dragonium z gouging's immense breaking capabilities, etc. the meta has never really been in favor of fatter teams and i wish that wasnt the case. i dont necessarily think that darkrai mainly caused the rise in offensively oriented teams, but i'd appreciate a more balanced meta nonetheless
i'm gonna comment more so on the second part of your post here
there are no checks. what checks? fighting resists like mlop and shifu have noticably low defensive stats and can barely take a choice specs dark pulse. all other resists, including tera-influenced ones like tera fairy gliscor all get blown away by darkrai's coverage, which further boosts its capability to break. mtar gets OHKOd by focus blast, and mlop can't even switch into dark pulse let alone focus blast. msciz and mmedi dont even resist dark pulse in the first place, and the only lele set that can somewhat handle darkrai is assault vest, which at best trades for it. z hypnosis isn't the set that's broken imo
there is virtually nothing that can stop darkrai's potency to bulkier builds as of the meta right now, and its somewhat contributed to the shifting of a more offensive-oriented one that i don't support. banning this thing would clear up restraints on teambuilding alongside balancing the tier and... of course. clearing the way for my goat HISIUAN SAMUROTT to take #1 spot for best dark type. for A tier dont hate...!
darkrai sus!
personally, i'm on banning darkrai. ever since the ban of zama, which was darkrai's most consistent check, it has rampaged the tier due to how potent it is. boasting a very hard to resist STAB alongside a very respectable 135 SpA makes this monster extremely hard to check defensively. most specially defenses pieces, like gking and iron crown, are blasted by darkrai's STAB, and other resists such as mtar and ting lu never like tanking a focus blast. there is little to none defensive counterplay to this mon, as its nearly unwallable with its strong STAB alongside its colorful coverage in sludge for fairies like clef and tera glisc/crown, while also having focus blast in its arsenal. near nothing in the tier can comfortably switch into specs, which at least can be outplayed using tera despite still being incredibly scary nonetheless. however, i see darkrai's issue being nasty plot. if darkrai successfully pulls off a nasty plot, there is near nothing that can stop it from taking a kill, and it oftentimes mean using your tera or having to sack something to revenge it. however, this doesn't mean switching in your speed control is a good play either; darkrai is able to take sizable chip on speed control like mega-lopunny and urshifu, which despite both resisting dark pulse still cant switch into it consistently. moreso, you have to worry about scarf sets even when you have your speed control in to revenge it, as not only can this mean mega-lopunny being focus blasted to death, but it can also cripple its already limited defensive answers with trick. in general, the plethora of possible sets darkrai can run, alongside near unresistable STAB and nasty plot z sets in its belt means that its almost always punching huge holes in teams. this mon genuinely puts so much pressure on the builder that(alongside other reasons, of course) offenses have become more of a prevalent playstyle and bulkier builds have suffered a lot recently due to defensively unstoppable powerhouses like darkrai.
i dont think banning sleep was the right play. while z hypnosis sets can certainly be annoying to deal with, i find the bigger issue with darkrai to be how incredibly strong it is. not only does hypnosis take up a slot, breaking off important coverage in dropping either sludge or fblast, it is pretty luck reliant and is cheesy at best. more consistent sets like choice specs more contribute to how strong it is due to its unwallable nature.
yo, goated name change btw!
i agree with you, z hypnosis isnt what makes darkrai broken. defensive structures in general suffered a lot this gen with how many offensive threats are in the metagame. it's already hard to deal with iron valiant's 400 possible sets, sword dance hsam's unstoppable spikes and superior offensive typing, dragon dance dragonium z gouging's immense breaking capabilities, etc. the meta has never really been in favor of fatter teams and i wish that wasnt the case. i dont necessarily think that darkrai mainly caused the rise in offensively oriented teams, but i'd appreciate a more balanced meta nonetheless
Why is
i'm gonna comment more so on the second part of your post here
there are no checks. what checks? fighting resists like mlop and shifu have noticably low defensive stats and can barely take a choice specs dark pulse. all other resists, including tera-influenced ones like tera fairy gliscor all get blown away by darkrai's coverage, which further boosts its capability to break. mtar gets OHKOd by focus blast, and mlop can't even switch into dark pulse let alone focus blast. msciz and mmedi dont even resist dark pulse in the first place, and the only lele set that can somewhat handle darkrai is assault vest, which at best trades for it. z hypnosis isn't the set that's broken imo
there is virtually nothing that can stop darkrai's potency to bulkier builds as of the meta right now, and its somewhat contributed to the shifting of a more offensive-oriented one that i don't support. banning this thing would clear up restraints on teambuilding alongside balancing the tier and... of course. clearing the way for my goat HISIUAN SAMUROTT to take #1 spot for best dark type.
for A tier dont hate...!
gonna hatendou chatroom is dead, so i guess i'll yap here
darkrai sus!
personally, i'm on banning darkrai. ever since the ban of zama, which was darkrai's most consistent check, it has rampaged the tier due to how potent it is. boasting a very hard to resist STAB alongside a very respectable 135 SpA makes this monster extremely hard to check defensively. most specially defenses pieces, like gking and iron crown, are blasted by darkrai's STAB, and other resists such as mtar and ting lu never like tanking a focus blast. there is little to none defensive counterplay to this mon, as its nearly unwallable with its strong STAB alongside its colorful coverage in sludge for fairies like clef and tera glisc/crown, while also having focus blast in its arsenal. near nothing in the tier can comfortably switch into specs, which at least can be outplayed using tera despite still being incredibly scary nonetheless. however, i see darkrai's issue being nasty plot. if darkrai successfully pulls off a nasty plot, there is near nothing that can stop it from taking a kill, and it oftentimes mean using your tera or having to sack something to revenge it. however, this doesn't mean switching in your speed control is a good play either; darkrai is able to take sizable chip on speed control like mega-lopunny and urshifu, which despite both resisting dark pulse still cant switch into it consistently. moreso, you have to worry about scarf sets even when you have your speed control in to revenge it, as not only can this mean mega-lopunny being focus blasted to death, but it can also cripple its already limited defensive answers with trick. in general, the plethora of possible sets darkrai can run, alongside near unresistable STAB and nasty plot z sets in its belt means that its almost always punching huge holes in teams. this mon genuinely puts so much pressure on the builder that(alongside other reasons, of course) offenses have become more of a prevalent playstyle and bulkier builds have suffered a lot recently due to defensively unstoppable powerhouses like darkrai.
i dont think banning sleep was the right play. while z hypnosis sets can certainly be annoying to deal with, i find the bigger issue with darkrai to be how incredibly strong it is. not only does hypnosis take up a slot, breaking off important coverage in dropping either sludge or fblast, it is pretty luck reliant and is cheesy at best. more consistent sets like choice specs more contribute to how strong it is due to its unwallable nature.
yo, goated name change btw!
i agree with you, z hypnosis isnt what makes darkrai broken. defensive structures in general suffered a lot this gen with how many offensive threats are in the metagame. it's already hard to deal with iron valiant's 400 possible sets, sword dance hsam's unstoppable spikes and superior offensive typing, dragon dance dragonium z gouging's immense breaking capabilities, etc. the meta has never really been in favor of fatter teams and i wish that wasnt the case. i dont necessarily think that darkrai mainly caused the rise in offensively oriented teams, but i'd appreciate a more balanced meta nonetheless
i'm gonna comment more so on the second part of your post here
there are no checks. what checks? fighting resists like mlop and shifu have noticably low defensive stats and can barely take a choice specs dark pulse. all other resists, including tera-influenced ones like tera fairy gliscor all get blown away by darkrai's coverage, which further boosts its capability to break. mtar gets OHKOd by focus blast, and mlop can't even switch into dark pulse let alone focus blast. msciz and mmedi dont even resist dark pulse in the first place, and the only lele set that can somewhat handle darkrai is assault vest, which at best trades for it. z hypnosis isn't the set that's broken imo
there is virtually nothing that can stop darkrai's potency to bulkier builds as of the meta right now, and its somewhat contributed to the shifting of a more offensive-oriented one that i don't support. banning this thing would clear up restraints on teambuilding alongside balancing the tier and... of course. clearing the way for my goat HISIUAN SAMUROTT to take #1 spot for best dark type.
I have recently returned to Natdex earlier this month. In my experience is extremely unhealthy. Many people are quick to point out it’s just the z hypnosis set would say that is a very annoying set. However, it’s strong speed tier being 125 which is just as fast as 
mind you allows it to outspeed a lot of the meta naturally. Having great stab in dark and a 135 spa to boot. Great coverage like sludge bomb to make sure you are reluctant to go into your fairies like 
, 
and , even 
post tera for example. Focus blast ensuring fat steels like 
want no part either. Nasty plot sets overall whether its z hypnosis or darkium z are just straight up diabolical. Thats not even to mention the occasional scarf which puts it at a advantageous speed tier outspeeding the likes of with booster which is really painful when something like speed tier is your best speed control. Some might say “but and can revenge kill bro” and I’ll say yeah good luck trying to sack a Mon for you to force it out and come back in to claim another kill. Overall, the sheer coverage and speed tier in conjunction with nastyplot and its respectable stab feels too much for the tier. Once it gets that nasty plot it makes sure you will pay in kind.
is extremely unhealthy. Many people are quick to point out it’s just the z hypnosis set would say that is a very annoying set. However, it’s strong speed tier being 125 which is just as fast as mind you allows it to outspeed a lot of the meta naturally. Having great stab in dark and a 135 spa to boot. Great coverage like sludge bomb to make sure you are reluctant to go into your fairies like , and , even post tera for example. Focus blast ensuring fat steels like want no part either. Nasty plot sets overall whether its z hypnosis or darkium z are just straight up diabolical. Thats not even to mention the occasional scarf which puts it at a advantageous speed tier outspeeding the likes of with booster which is really painful when something like speed tier is your best speed control. Some might say “but and can revenge kill bro” and I’ll say yeah good luck trying to sack a Mon for you to force it out and come back in to claim another kill. Overall, the sheer coverage and speed tier in conjunction with nastyplot and its respectable stab feels too much for the tier. Once it gets that nasty plot it makes sure you will pay in kind.
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252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 460-544 (122.9 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ok I realized I am wrong by about a billion miles. What I thought was a "check" actually gets ohkoed by focus blast. gets ohkoed after some hazard/teamate chip and sludge bomb is a roll to ohko . Scarf outspeeds other threats like and ohkoes them and stab dark pulse hits hard. Even though it's speed ties with fucking some part of me still thinks that it still isn't banworthy bc the meta could change and evs reinvested
Ok I realized I am wrong by about a billion miles. What I thought was a "check" actually gets ohkoed by focus blast.
gets ohkoed after some hazard/teamate chip and sludge bomb is a roll to ohko . Scarf outspeeds other threats like and ohkoes them and stab dark pulse hits hard. Even though it's speed ties with fucking some part of me still thinks that it still isn't banworthy bc the meta could change and evs reinvestedNot tryna stir up bs but I've found to either be inconsistent or I suck(I've never made it past mid 1300s) but genuinely. While plot sets are great, there better setup sweepers(eg. 
, 
, etc.) and choiced sets while strong almost always specs is the viable one since scarf lacks power. I genuinely think I suck(skill issue I'm so funny) but imo specs is the only viable set. That isn't to say is bad it just sorta made me rethink the suspect
to either be inconsistent or I suck(I've never made it past mid 1300s) but genuinely. While plot sets are great, there better setup sweepers(eg. , , etc.) and choiced sets while strong almost always specs is the viable one since scarf lacks power. I genuinely think I suck(skill issue I'm so funny) but imo specs is the only viable set. That isn't to say is bad it just sorta made me rethink the suspect
I'd like to preface that this is not an April Fools post, so please remove any preconcieved notion you formed when you opened the thread. This post is NOT funny.
Lugia, wh're has't thee been?
I'd like to adress the positives of susepecting Lugia before diving deeper. Unrelated to competitve but I do beleive that most people would like to see this Pokemon placed in a meta where it's genuinely viable. Lugia hasn't been viable in official metagames since ORAS Ubers and at best a niche pick for stall. In unofficial metagames, Lugia has been a stall staple in Mega Rayquaza metagames but again, only on stall. Lastly before diving deeper into the subject, I think we can all agree that Lugia will eventually be susepcted at some point in the future. It may not be this gen, but the power creep progression since generation 5 and nerfs to it's recvoery and indirectly it's typing, all indicate a suspect test in the future.
Poach'd eggs and tea wilt suffice. Once we stoodeth beside the sh're
There has never been a better time for a Lugia suspect. The meta game is fairly stable and Lugia is the weakest it's ever been. The two most oppressive Pokemon in the tier right now are unianimously SD Wellspring and ID Press Zamazenta. Both are checked by Lugia. I think if theres a chance for a healthier option to deal with both of these Pokemon in one slot, we should take it seriously. I'm not quite sure what set the community is stressed about, perhaps they feel that Lugia is just too bulky and is unreasonable for certain playstyles to build for. The biggest obstacle in Lugia's path to OU is Tera. Many will even go as far to say that without Tera, it would already have been suspected in this tier. So, is it as bad as people think? Well, maybe. Of course we can be certain about this hypothetical until actual testing but one thing is clear already. Lugia is extremely prone to forms of chip damage. Status, Hazards and Sandstorm. U-Turn is also much more common in OU than it is in Ubers, which means that preserving Multiscale is harder than ever before. Fortunately for Lugia, it still has Pressure. Which is a great ability in it's own right but it also means Lugia is much less tanky than the calcs show. Before moving onto the next part of the argument, I want to clarify the point made about Tera. Lugia will be extremely Tera reliant, which will serverly limit team options. The next thing I want to point out is Lugia's impact on team archetypes. Lugia very clearly excells verses Offense because of it's outstanding mixed bulk and great support move pool. Lugia is very difficult to OHKO and can blanket check almost any Pokemon in the game with Tera. Offense can run taunt on their setup sweepers to prevent Lugia from phasing out threast or deny toxic stalling with roost. However not all Pokemon can afford to run taunt which will likely have a negative impact on Offense regardless. Lugia seems to be an improved Vincune with Substitue, Protect, Calm Mind + Pressure on Bulky Offense teams. With the advatge of higher bulk, Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunity and higher base speed, on paper it looks like a very good win condition. Stall is in a healthy spot right now. There is a growing fear that by dropping an Uber that is synonymous with stall, it will make stall overpowered. I actually do believe stall will become really strong and possibly overpowered. Lugia, even with pressure is a blanket check to many of OUs strongest breakers and stall structures perfectly compliment Lugia and enable it to function it's designated role. However, Lugia is still Tera reliant and can make certain match ups awkward when multiple Pokemon nned their Tera. I find this issue situational on stall and not something competent players will have to fear. Lastly, I'll talk about Balance. Lugia's passivitiy will be easiest for Balance to exploit, however it is also extremely difficult for Balance to break this Pokemon. That's all I have to say for now, please inform me if I'm missing anything, I am glad we finally have the oppurtunit yto formally discuss this topic after it has lingered in the air all generation.
- thebestever543 aka MMxLegend
I'd like to preface that this is not an April Fools post, so please remove any preconcieved notion you formed when you opened the thread. This post is NOT funny.
Lugia, wh're has't thee been?
I'd like to adress the positives of susepecting Lugia before diving deeper. Unrelated to competitve but I do beleive that most people would like to see this Pokemon placed in a meta where it's genuinely viable. Lugia hasn't been viable in official metagames since ORAS Ubers and at best a niche pick for stall. In unofficial metagames, Lugia has been a stall staple in Mega Rayquaza metagames but again, only on stall. Lastly before diving deeper into the subject, I think we can all agree that Lugia will eventually be susepcted at some point in the future. It may not be this gen, but the power creep progression since generation 5 and nerfs to it's recvoery and indirectly it's typing, all indicate a suspect test in the future.
Poach'd eggs and tea wilt suffice. Once we stoodeth beside the sh're
There has never been a better time for a Lugia suspect. The meta game is fairly stable and Lugia is the weakest it's ever been. The two most oppressive Pokemon in the tier right now are unianimously SD Wellspring and ID Press Zamazenta. Both are checked by Lugia. I think if theres a chance for a healthier option to deal with both of these Pokemon in one slot, we should take it seriously. I'm not quite sure what set the community is stressed about, perhaps they feel that Lugia is just too bulky and is unreasonable for certain playstyles to build for. The biggest obstacle in Lugia's path to OU is Tera. Many will even go as far to say that without Tera, it would already have been suspected in this tier. So, is it as bad as people think? Well, maybe. Of course we can be certain about this hypothetical until actual testing but one thing is clear already. Lugia is extremely prone to forms of chip damage. Status, Hazards and Sandstorm. U-Turn is also much more common in OU than it is in Ubers, which means that preserving Multiscale is harder than ever before. Fortunately for Lugia, it still has Pressure. Which is a great ability in it's own right but it also means Lugia is much less tanky than the calcs show. Before moving onto the next part of the argument, I want to clarify the point made about Tera. Lugia will be extremely Tera reliant, which will serverly limit team options. The next thing I want to point out is Lugia's impact on team archetypes. Lugia very clearly excells verses Offense because of it's outstanding mixed bulk and great support move pool. Lugia is very difficult to OHKO and can blanket check almost any Pokemon in the game with Tera. Offense can run taunt on their setup sweepers to prevent Lugia from phasing out threast or deny toxic stalling with roost. However not all Pokemon can afford to run taunt which will likely have a negative impact on Offense regardless. Lugia seems to be an improved Vincune with Substitue, Protect, Calm Mind + Pressure on Bulky Offense teams. With the advatge of higher bulk, Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunity and higher base speed, on paper it looks like a very good win condition. Stall is in a healthy spot right now. There is a growing fear that by dropping an Uber that is synonymous with stall, it will make stall overpowered. I actually do believe stall will become really strong and possibly overpowered. Lugia, even with pressure is a blanket check to many of OUs strongest breakers and stall structures perfectly compliment Lugia and enable it to function it's designated role. However, Lugia is still Tera reliant and can make certain match ups awkward when multiple Pokemon nned their Tera. I find this issue situational on stall and not something competent players will have to fear. Lastly, I'll talk about Balance. Lugia's passivitiy will be easiest for Balance to exploit, however it is also extremely difficult for Balance to break this Pokemon. That's all I have to say for now, please inform me if I'm missing anything, I am glad we finally have the oppurtunit yto formally discuss this topic after it has lingered in the air all generation.
I don't think what makes lugia broken in this tier is as a stall mon or bulky pivot or anything - it's as a calm mind sweeper. There's pretty much nothing that can beat it consistently with calm mind sets due to it's immense bulk, and with screens up and a weakness policy it would create more problems for the tier than it fixes. Not to mention it would make darkrai even better which isn't something the tier needs right now.
I think there's more of an argument for something like magearna since it actually solves some of the issues with darkrai and some other strong breakers like raging bolt or with tera, gouging fire as well. The only question is if the meta can really handle the sweeper sets and sadly I really don't think it can.
(also zamazenta has been banned for quite a while..)
I concur with the post above mine. Although Lugia
I'd like to preface that this is not an April Fools post, so please remove any preconcieved notion you formed when you opened the thread. This post is NOT funny.
Lugia, wh're has't thee been?
I'd like to adress the positives of susepecting Lugia before diving deeper. Unrelated to competitve but I do beleive that most people would like to see this Pokemon placed in a meta where it's genuinely viable. Lugia hasn't been viable in official metagames since ORAS Ubers and at best a niche pick for stall. In unofficial metagames, Lugia has been a stall staple in Mega Rayquaza metagames but again, only on stall. Lastly before diving deeper into the subject, I think we can all agree that Lugia will eventually be susepcted at some point in the future. It may not be this gen, but the power creep progression since generation 5 and nerfs to it's recvoery and indirectly it's typing, all indicate a suspect test in the future.
Poach'd eggs and tea wilt suffice. Once we stoodeth beside the sh're
There has never been a better time for a Lugia suspect. The meta game is fairly stable and Lugia is the weakest it's ever been. The two most oppressive Pokemon in the tier right now are unianimously SD Wellspring and ID Press Zamazenta. Both are checked by Lugia. I think if theres a chance for a healthier option to deal with both of these Pokemon in one slot, we should take it seriously. I'm not quite sure what set the community is stressed about, perhaps they feel that Lugia is just too bulky and is unreasonable for certain playstyles to build for. The biggest obstacle in Lugia's path to OU is Tera. Many will even go as far to say that without Tera, it would already have been suspected in this tier. So, is it as bad as people think? Well, maybe. Of course we can be certain about this hypothetical until actual testing but one thing is clear already. Lugia is extremely prone to forms of chip damage. Status, Hazards and Sandstorm. U-Turn is also much more common in OU than it is in Ubers, which means that preserving Multiscale is harder than ever before. Fortunately for Lugia, it still has Pressure. Which is a great ability in it's own right but it also means Lugia is much less tanky than the calcs show. Before moving onto the next part of the argument, I want to clarify the point made about Tera. Lugia will be extremely Tera reliant, which will serverly limit team options. The next thing I want to point out is Lugia's impact on team archetypes. Lugia very clearly excells verses Offense because of it's outstanding mixed bulk and great support move pool. Lugia is very difficult to OHKO and can blanket check almost any Pokemon in the game with Tera. Offense can run taunt on their setup sweepers to prevent Lugia from phasing out threast or deny toxic stalling with roost. However not all Pokemon can afford to run taunt which will likely have a negative impact on Offense regardless. Lugia seems to be an improved Vincune with Substitue, Protect, Calm Mind + Pressure on Bulky Offense teams. With the advatge of higher bulk, Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunity and higher base speed, on paper it looks like a very good win condition. Stall is in a healthy spot right now. There is a growing fear that by dropping an Uber that is synonymous with stall, it will make stall overpowered. I actually do believe stall will become really strong and possibly overpowered. Lugia, even with pressure is a blanket check to many of OUs strongest breakers and stall structures perfectly compliment Lugia and enable it to function it's designated role. However, Lugia is still Tera reliant and can make certain match ups awkward when multiple Pokemon nned their Tera. I find this issue situational on stall and not something competent players will have to fear. Lastly, I'll talk about Balance. Lugia's passivitiy will be easiest for Balance to exploit, however it is also extremely difficult for Balance to break this Pokemon. That's all I have to say for now, please inform me if I'm missing anything, I am glad we finally have the oppurtunit yto formally discuss this topic after it has lingered in the air all generation.
is usually labeled as being exclusive to stall if it were to drop I disagree with that notion. As stated above the cm sweeper variant of lugia I could see being very obnoxious and a Mon that could potentially have elite offensive prowess coming off its base 90 spa and bonkers flying stab like aeroblast. Furthermore, this is bolstered by the fact it has massive defensive stats to begin with a whopping 106/110/154 and then there is multi scale. The design of this Mon would allow it to be on bulkier teams but I could also see it on screens fully abusing its multi scale ability. Moreover, although you give up coverage I could see sub cm being a thing too and being that fast and bulky I definitely see it pulling that off. Does it provide a nice defensive profile to stuff like and 
? Perhaps but I see this Mon being a nuisance to opposing balances and bulky offense teams if we were to let it in. For instance it can beat defensive mons commonly found in Bulky offense/balance builds builds such as 
is it invincible? Probably not but in ou? Sounds about annoying as hell . Anyways wildfire out.
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> The meta game is fairly stable and Lugia is the weakest it's ever been. The two most oppressive Pokemon in the tier right now are unianimously SD Wellspring and ID Press Zamazenta. Both are checked by Lugia. I think if theres a chance for a healthier option to deal with both of these Pokemon in one slot, we should take it seriously. I'm not quite sure what set the community is stressed about, perhaps they feel that Lugia is just too bulky and is unreasonable for certain playstyles to build for. The biggest obstacle in Lugia's path to OU is Tera. Many will even go as far to say that without Tera, it would already have been suspected in this tier.
Considering it was briefly asked about last gen in a tera-less metagame and still shot down, no. This isn't SV OU, Lugia's only "weaker" through halved recovery PP but otherwise has all its great moves. And the recovery nerf matters little when its so fat as is. Others have pointed it out, but CM Tera Lugia is a dumb concept for an OU tier like this. Also, let's not tread towards the idea of unbanning things from Ubers just to try and contain problematic issues (btw, Zama has been banned for a while now why mention it). The tier, outside Darkrai and Wellspring, is in a pretty good spot and the last thing we should be doing is adding some obnoxious super fat wincon that just teras and beats whatever it wants. Would it be super crazy broken? No but it'd be obnoxiously centralizing and I'd rather we remove what issues that do exist instead of introduce more.
Considering it was briefly asked about last gen in a tera-less metagame and still shot down, no. This isn't SV OU, Lugia's only "weaker" through halved recovery PP but otherwise has all its great moves. And the recovery nerf matters little when its so fat as is. Others have pointed it out, but CM Tera Lugia is a dumb concept for an OU tier like this. Also, let's not tread towards the idea of unbanning things from Ubers just to try and contain problematic issues (btw, Zama has been banned for a while now why mention it). The tier, outside Darkrai and Wellspring, is in a pretty good spot and the last thing we should be doing is adding some obnoxious super fat wincon that just teras and beats whatever it wants. Would it be super crazy broken? No but it'd be obnoxiously centralizing and I'd rather we remove what issues that do exist instead of introduce more.
Considering it was briefly asked about last gen in a tera-less metagame and still shot down, no. This isn't SV OU, Lugia's only "weaker" through halved recovery PP but otherwise has all its great moves. And the recovery nerf matters little when its so fat as is. Others have pointed it out, but CM Tera Lugia is a dumb concept for an OU tier like this. Also, let's not tread towards the idea of unbanning things from Ubers just to try and contain problematic issues (btw, Zama has been banned for a while now why mention it). The tier, outside Darkrai and Wellspring, is in a pretty good spot and the last thing we should be doing is adding some obnoxious super fat wincon that just teras and beats whatever it wants. Would it be super crazy broken? No but it'd be obnoxiously centralizing and I'd rather we remove what issues that do instead of introduce more.
Why do you want
I'd like to preface that this is not an April Fools post, so please remove any preconcieved notion you formed when you opened the thread. This post is NOT funny.
Lugia, wh're has't thee been?
I'd like to adress the positives of susepecting Lugia before diving deeper. Unrelated to competitve but I do beleive that most people would like to see this Pokemon placed in a meta where it's genuinely viable. Lugia hasn't been viable in official metagames since ORAS Ubers and at best a niche pick for stall. In unofficial metagames, Lugia has been a stall staple in Mega Rayquaza metagames but again, only on stall. Lastly before diving deeper into the subject, I think we can all agree that Lugia will eventually be susepcted at some point in the future. It may not be this gen, but the power creep progression since generation 5 and nerfs to it's recvoery and indirectly it's typing, all indicate a suspect test in the future.
Poach'd eggs and tea wilt suffice. Once we stoodeth beside the sh're
There has never been a better time for a Lugia suspect. The meta game is fairly stable and Lugia is the weakest it's ever been. The two most oppressive Pokemon in the tier right now are unianimously SD Wellspring and ID Press Zamazenta. Both are checked by Lugia. I think if theres a chance for a healthier option to deal with both of these Pokemon in one slot, we should take it seriously. I'm not quite sure what set the community is stressed about, perhaps they feel that Lugia is just too bulky and is unreasonable for certain playstyles to build for. The biggest obstacle in Lugia's path to OU is Tera. Many will even go as far to say that without Tera, it would already have been suspected in this tier. So, is it as bad as people think? Well, maybe. Of course we can be certain about this hypothetical until actual testing but one thing is clear already. Lugia is extremely prone to forms of chip damage. Status, Hazards and Sandstorm. U-Turn is also much more common in OU than it is in Ubers, which means that preserving Multiscale is harder than ever before. Fortunately for Lugia, it still has Pressure. Which is a great ability in it's own right but it also means Lugia is much less tanky than the calcs show. Before moving onto the next part of the argument, I want to clarify the point made about Tera. Lugia will be extremely Tera reliant, which will serverly limit team options. The next thing I want to point out is Lugia's impact on team archetypes. Lugia very clearly excells verses Offense because of it's outstanding mixed bulk and great support move pool. Lugia is very difficult to OHKO and can blanket check almost any Pokemon in the game with Tera. Offense can run taunt on their setup sweepers to prevent Lugia from phasing out threast or deny toxic stalling with roost. However not all Pokemon can afford to run taunt which will likely have a negative impact on Offense regardless. Lugia seems to be an improved Vincune with Substitue, Protect, Calm Mind + Pressure on Bulky Offense teams. With the advatge of higher bulk, Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunity and higher base speed, on paper it looks like a very good win condition. Stall is in a healthy spot right now. There is a growing fear that by dropping an Uber that is synonymous with stall, it will make stall overpowered. I actually do believe stall will become really strong and possibly overpowered. Lugia, even with pressure is a blanket check to many of OUs strongest breakers and stall structures perfectly compliment Lugia and enable it to function it's designated role. However, Lugia is still Tera reliant and can make certain match ups awkward when multiple Pokemon nned their Tera. I find this issue situational on stall and not something competent players will have to fear. Lastly, I'll talk about Balance. Lugia's passivitiy will be easiest for Balance to exploit, however it is also extremely difficult for Balance to break this Pokemon. That's all I have to say for now, please inform me if I'm missing anything, I am glad we finally have the oppurtunit yto formally discuss this topic after it has lingered in the air all generation.
in this tier? While yes it is incredibly shitty in Ubers(if you want a bulky psychic type just use 
) it contributes more to spam which we don't need and rn the meta imo is peak dark type period. Maybe I don't actually understand what your hinting at and what the state of Ubers is like rn I don't think would be good in ndou outside of screens cm sets and would basically become a 
carbon copy but just bulkier. It would need a metric fuckton of hazard removal if it wants policy and boots kinda means no free +2 whenever you get hit super effectively through screens and multiscale. Say it with me; 
SYNDROME