Serious The Politics Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m well aware as is Medeia (they detailed it in their post already). I don’t give a shit about the reason. I would think you of all people who was expressing the importance of party unity and backing Biden mere weeks ago would understand why it doesn’t matter the reason and that you vote for your party’s signature legislation and don’t rely on opposition votes to pass it.

There are enough reasons to dislike the squad without disingenuous attacks like them being against Biden’s agenda. BIP was not the signature legislation; BBB was. BIP became signature because of this exact scenario. And I can confidently name three of those Republicans who voted yes are local to me, and in NY & NJ (metro NYC especially) where we get pennies back on the dollar federal funding, nothing will tank your political career faster, regardless of party, then voting against money for NY/NJ bridges and tunnels. It is a fucking death sentence. (Aka, the Speaker counts these votes before bringing it up for a vote. They did not need squad votes to pass BIP)

Edit: Manchin was never going to vote for the combined package either, to be clear. You get what you can get with narrow majorities. I hate Manchin too, but pretending anything else was ever going to happen is a fantasy.

You’re looking at it in hindsight, and mischaracterizing what was a specific negotiation strategy as some sort of betrayal.
 
Both before and after the two parts were decoupled, Manchin "negotiated" the entire episode in bad faith. Anyone with eyes could see that in real time.

He objected to the total cost maybe a dozen times and even after it was lowered to the cost he wanted, he then found other reasons to vote no, including citing an entirely inaccurate, hypothetical CBO score of the cost (not the actual bill's real score). The only proposal he put forward included provisions that the other Senate roadblock Sinema had already said she wouldn't vote for, meaning it wasn't a real proposal and just an opportunity to try to pass the buck for BBB's failure on Sinema instead of him.

The provision he objected to the most was the extension of the child tax credit which just shows what a villain he is. If he couldn't back the part of the bill that is an unambiguous moral good because of the cost, he was never voting for the whole package.
 
There are enough reasons to dislike the squad without disingenuous attacks like them being against Biden’s agenda. BIP was not the signature legislation; BBB was. BIP became signature because of this exact scenario. And I can confidently name three of those Republicans who voted yes are local to me, and in NY & NJ (metro NYC especially) where we get pennies back on the dollar federal funding, nothing will tank your political career faster, regardless of party, then voting against money for NY/NJ bridges and tunnels. It is a fucking death sentence. (Aka, the Speaker counts these votes before bringing it up for a vote. They did not need squad votes to pass BIP)



You’re looking at it in hindsight, and mischaracterizing what was a specific negotiation strategy as some sort of betrayal.


Yeah i actually forgot about that Manchin guy trying to Torpedo Build Back Better to get passed at all, so the Squads move was fine i guess in retrospect, however i will stand that the Squad and supporters should not just blame AIPAC money as the sole cause for the most recent losses since their movement has been on a decline for a while before anything that happened since October 7th.
 
Yeah i actually forgot about that Manchin guy trying to Torpedo Build Back Better to get passed at all, so the Squads move was fine i guess in retrospect, however i will stand that the Squad and supporters should not just blame AIPAC money as the sole cause for the most recent losses since their movement has been on a decline for a while before anything that happened since October 7th.

I think this is fair. Raikoulover described the situation on BBB exactly right, but progressives definitely need to reflect on how an org like the squad can keep and hold power.

I can agree that it's not just AIPAC money, and that the Squad has been in a bit of decline. Their mission is hard, and it doesn't even necessarily get easier the more the Democrats actually pass popular progressive policy, or choose more progressive leaders like Walz.

Justice Democrats were founded on the principle that the squad would be populist fire brands, adversarial to the Dems and able to push for progressive policy and gain electoral power through their popularity and accountability to the people by not taking corporate pac money etc. etc.

In practice though, in order to get anything done, they of course needed to build relationships, get committee assignments, and play ball with the party. In many cases, I think that the actual Squad members themselves have walked this tightrope much more wisely than those who envisioned their mission had. That said, ultimately the left and the progressive base ARE an essential key to power for them regardless; as long as they refrain from the corrupt dollars, they must have the attention and energy of the left behind them in order to defend their electoral viability.

On one hand I think that a group of young outsider democrats who have knee capped themselves in financing have done an incredible job to be as resilient as they have-- it took THIS much money and power and time for their enemies to eliminate any of them; and the biggest 3 of AoC, Ilhan, and Tlaib are still there.

It probably is time though, for the squad and those who support them to take stock of what it will take for a group like them to continue to succeed-- now balanced on the hard trifecta of:
1) Needing energized support of the broader progressive base
2) Needing to work with Dems to win WITH Dems to deliver the policies progressives want (that we all want)
3) Needing to somehow differentiate themselves and retain differentiation from normal Dems when the party as a whole is moving left in many ways

It's also possible to be a sufferer from success. I hate to make an analogy to the right, but Nick Fuentes has a harder time making himself out as a crazier Nazi when Charlie Kirk just out and becomes an open Nazi.
 
Last edited:
The squad has basically demonstrated why, as expected, working within the democratic party will not function as a strategy. They will continue to compromise, but it will never be enough because only total fealty to the party establishment will be tolerated. It is a party completely of and for the ruling class. Similar to how you can be pro-Israel and still be relentlessly opposed by AIPAC, unlike 'progressives,' these forces will not make compromises


Also, on the topic of Tim Walz, here is a great interview from yesterday. A Minnesota Palestinian activist explains meeting Tim Walz, his relationship to Israel, and how as governor he has not just rhetorically, but materially benefited Israel and its genocide

 
Last edited:
Bush and Bowman both literally voted against the Dems signature piece of legislation
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/05/poli...ats-voted-no-republicans-voted-yes/index.html
And Bush was also under a criminal investigation too
https://apnews.com/article/cori-bus...nvestigation-70beaae928bcc72b7ecbcdd207a7377d

I think the outside spending is opportunistic and gross but to think her losing her primary is primarily to do with israel is suspect af without data to back that up.
Another factor is Bowman and Bush were both absentee congresspeople by all accounts, especially compared to Tlaib and Omar, whose constituent services both are very responsive and well regarded. Retail politics matter, and I expect Omar and Tlaib to not lose a primary for quite a while for this reason.
 
Another factor is Bowman and Bush were both absentee congresspeople by all accounts, especially compared to Tlaib and Omar, whose constituent services both are very responsive and well regarded. Retail politics matter, and I expect Omar and Tlaib to not lose a primary for quite a while for this reason.

They also (along with AOC) are fine in their respective districts, where as Bowman for sure was not and Bush probably not.


Marc Lamont Hill is a clown. He campaigned against Clinton in 2016 and admitted to being “okay with Trump winning.”
 
Bowman also was damaged goods from the fire alarm saga. Not that a lot of people probably cared that he pulled it, but they certainly cared that he tried to weasel his way out of it instead of just owning what he did. The video came out and didn't remotely match his story of it being accidental.

Then on top of that, earlier this year it came out that he's a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, while representing a district covering NYC suburbs. "Bad fit" for the district is an understatement.
 
As we've discussed here, to be fair it wasn't the district he started with-- which had him representing much poorer neighborhoods in the Bronx. And he still swept the areas in the district like that.

Westchester's #1 export is white collar professional managerial labor to Manhattan. When I got here and looked around, and found out Bowman was my representative-- I was just "wait what?"
 
In practice though, in order to get anything done, they of course needed to build relationships, get committee assignments, and play ball with the party.
Do you actually think the party gives a fuck about them?

Every one of the establishment gatekeepers is a monster, in both political parties. They are not good faith people, they won't work with progressive senators or whatever because that'd go against their cause, and their cause is against the progressive senators.

They are gatekeepers specifically to guide the party away from progressivism and towards the company's and military's profits. These were people that were willing to go with Biden until a month ago because they actually thought what was going to be a corpse would beat Trump, and he'd be a guy who was already part of the establishment.

That's the reason people like AOC/Bernie stayed with Biden until the very end. No matter what happens, if they are wrong, they are on the chopping block- progressives need to stay in line on things like that even when it's not in anyone's interest.

Look at Labour in UK as an example, shutting down Corbyn so hard and spending practically an entire election cycle to slander a progressive, that a person was lynched in the street because he isn't white this week, and the most Starmer can say is "they're thugs", while they and the Tories still have similar policy on tons of things including immigration.

Establishment. Democrats. Aren't. Negotiable. They do not care. They do not want to compromise. They are ACTIVELY OPPOSED to progressivism; it is not just "electoral pragmatism". I do not know how else to stress this. It is not a relationship, outside of the fact that the progressive Senators have to do anything they can to prove their use to the party, else they be ousted quickly.

The only reason we got this far is because it was the most convenient. The election is soon, they actually started seeing Trump as a threat, and they are willing for this to get out of Trump. Which, keep in mind, Trump was a PART OF THE STRATEGY, that is having an opponent that was so bad they didn't have to have good policy to win!

I don't know how many times this has to be explained, they do not like progressives! They are ideologically opposed to progressivism!

Why would they leave a ladder that upends their entire ideology easily within their own party. Superdelegates, AIPAC, corporate funding, lobbying, propaganda against themselves, funding Conservatives, anything goes as long as they can try to keep the progressives out while still winning with neoliberalism.

Start locally. Local and state level is the best we have right now. Walz VP is great, but fundamentally Kamala and Walz can, at best, try to do a little and be a part of long-term change.

There's a reason most outlets kept asking for other VPs rather than Walz, and why Bloomberg posted a video today arguing that Walz is a detriment to the election- because they don't like him. The constituency likes him, but they don't.

If Kamala actually cares, she can get the ball rolling especially as that old generation is starting to literally die, but as is she is still also beholden to the same people as the gatekeepers within her party.
 
Can you guys not be like weird automatons like the right? Believe it or not, these are human beings we're talking about in politicians and not everything is logical or optimized or even purely explainable by lenses of power or economy.

Those things explain a LOT, and no analyses of anything makes sense without considering material condition, without considering dialectics of opposing interests. That said, there is such a thing as human nature, and actions taken for reasons explainable as human reasons.

It's possible for the left to become slowly humanized in the eyes of liberal voters and leaders, for MSNBC wine moms and pundits who were ruthless against Bernie to come to humanize AoC especially when being in the trenches together against Trump. It's possible that working together, and also hearing progressive voices and sentiments rise up from their own kids that hearts and minds change. Look these things can work in the opposite direction as well as 1000% Biden's mind humanizes Israelis and not Palestinians.

But Pelosi and Obama pushing Harris to choose Walz doesn't come from some calculus for Empire or because they want or hate socialism (maybe they really want to win and think he's best?)-- but guaranteed it's most likely it's as simple as that they like him, there is a relationship and trust, and that's what clinched things. And as part of the base, I want to signal my approval-- I don't want to be the cool kid at school who just has to be right and hates, everything, but use CARROT as WELL as stick, and give elected officials human reason to believe that if they do good things the base WILL appreciate it and will appropriately stroke their egos. There's no reason to not be happy right now about the Walz pick.

And listening to those comments from Governor Walz about the situation around the protests, I hear real confliction-- real, human emotion and remorse. It makes me like him and trust his judgement even more.

And if you can't see that, or hear that, or make room in the analysis to consider those normal human forces... frankly that's just weird.
 
Last edited:
But Pelosi and Obama pushing Harris to choose Walz doesn't come from some calculus for Empire
This is funny because Obama and Joe Biden were ferocious fighters for The Empire (trademark) and corporate interests, and Pelosi has always been like that, too.


It's possible for the left to become slowly humanized in the eyes of liberal voters and leaders, for MSNBC wine moms and pundits who were ruthless against Bernie to come to humanize AoC especially when being in the trenches together against Trump. It's possible that working together, and also hearing progressive voices and sentiments rise up from their own kids that hearts and minds change. Look these things can work in the opposite direction as well as 1000% Biden's mind humanizes Israelis and not Palestinians.
The point here is that the progressives have to actually work their ass off to get 1% of the broad appeal, and that is by design- from the party. Bernie Sanders worked his ass off going in front of FOX News crowds (who he showed that he could literally convince at times), campaigning with little corporate donating, getting hated on by both Democrats and Republicans in almost equal fury, especially their media.

Superdelegates were objectively a major part in the anti-Democratic process of the primary, and even after that, he backed Hillary Clinton. After Clinton lost, an entire major Liberal theory (especially online) is that people voting for Bernie Sanders lost Clinton the campaign (which is dumb).

Again, we see in places such as the UK that the liberal party will do everything in its power to prevent progressives from becoming the major nominee.

It is not by "chance" and it's not just some individuals making some some plan in good faith. It is deliberate.

Screenshot_20240807_191926_YouTube.jpg


oh wow dat's crazy they're already trying to make walz out to be an issue
 
This is funny because Obama and Joe Biden were ferocious fighters for The Empire (trademark) and corporate interests, and Pelosi has always been like that, too.



The point here is that the progressives have to actually work their ass off to get 1% of the broad appeal, and that is by design- from the party. Bernie Sanders worked his ass off going in front of FOX News crowds (who he showed that he could literally convince at times), campaigning with little corporate donating, getting hated on by both Democrats and Republicans in almost equal fury, especially their media.

Superdelegates were objectively a major part in the anti-Democratic process of the primary, and even after that, he backed Hillary Clinton. After Clinton lost, an entire major Liberal theory (especially online) is that people voting for Bernie Sanders lost Clinton the campaign (which is dumb).

Again, we see in places such as the UK that the liberal party will do everything in its power to prevent progressives from becoming the major nominee.

It is not by "chance" and it's not just some individuals making some some plan in good faith. It is deliberate.

View attachment 655627

oh wow dat's crazy they're already trying to make walz out to be an issue
I want to be clear here so:

I don't think Walz, or even Kamala inherently are these deeply establishment people. Nor do I think Obama was in 2008, though I believe Biden was- a man who was talking about how we need Israel to have our own middle-east state decades ago.

But I believe in corruption, and I believe in gatekeepers. I don't think electibility doesn't matter, but at the core I do believe this:

If the oldfuck gatekeepers were choosing between Bernie Sanders and Trump winning? Like Labour in the UK, it'd be a closer toss up than you think.
 
I want to be clear here so:

I don't think Walz, or even Kamala inherently are these deeply establishment people. Nor do I think Obama was in 2008, though I believe Biden was- a man who was talking about how we need Israel to have our own middle-east state decades ago.

But I believe in corruption, and I believe in gatekeepers. I don't think electibility doesn't matter, but at the core I do believe this:

If the oldfuck gatekeepers were choosing between Bernie Sanders and Trump winning? Like Labour in the UK, it'd be a closer toss up than you think.

Oh no, all of that is right. 2016 Democrats definitely would rather pick Trump over Bernie. Biden's comments about Israel from back then-- you almost have to applaud how openly the man wore Empire on his sleeve at the time.

But I don't think that 2024 Democrats, in party or voting populace, are the same as 2016.

And I didn't mean that there aren't cynical decisions-- Empire, Power, Material Condition, that Economics lens of the world explains maybe 80% of everything. And when I say Economics I mean not in the narrow markets/economies analysis but in the broad truly human social science sense of the word, where Economics is the study of human decision making when assuming humans are rational actors optimizing to self-interest and pursuit of "Value". Economics explains a LOT.

But, Economics without psychology, without including the lens that views human scenarios carried out by the emotional meat bags, barely evolved Squirrels that we are, does tend to miss the mark because we're not automatons and things like Relationships, Trust, Emotional Attachment, Humanization, etc. etc. do influence things a lot.

Neither the party nor the country see Bernie or his politics the same way as they did as in 2016. Tim Walz would not be the VP pick if the Democrats were the same Party as then.
 
Last edited:
Oh no, all of that is right. 2016 Democrats definitely would rather pick Trump over Bernie. Biden's comments about Israel from back then-- you almost have to applaud how openly the man wore Empire on his sleeve at the time.

But I don't think that 2024 Democrats, in party or voting populace, are the same as 2016.

And I didn't mean that there aren't cynical decisions-- Empire, Power, Material Condition, that Economics lens of the world explains maybe 80% of everything. And when I say Economics I mean not in the narrow markets/economies analysis but in the broad truly human social science sense of the word, where Economics is the study of human decision making when assuming humans are rational actors optimizing to self-interest and pursuit of "Value". Economics explains a LOT.

But, Economics without psychology, without including the lens that views human scenarios carried out by the emotional meat bags, barely evolved Squirrels that we are, does tend to miss the mark because we're not automatons and things like Relationships, Trust, Emotional Attachment, Humanization, etc. etc. do influence things a lot.

Neither the party nor the country see Bernie or his politics the same way as they did as in 2016. Tim Walz would not be the VP pick if the Democrats were the same Party as then.
I still don't necessarily agree with you on all of this, but I understand your perspective more and I can see what you mean.
 
Chou Toshio said:
And listening to those comments from Governor Walz about the situation around the protests, I hear real confliction-- real, human emotion and remorse. It makes me like him and trust his judgement even more.
Tim Walz deserves our praise for calling in the national guard to attack protesters (protesting against the 2020 racist police killing of George Floyd by Minneapolis police)? Am I to understand that, in the future, if there is another uprising against the racist police murders of Black people that continue in this country, you will support and even praise politicians who use the police and military to violently suppress such protest--so long as they do so in a polite and elegant manner?
 
He deserves respect for reading the room, for listening to others, for asking the state's attorney general to directly prosecute Chauvin and put him away for 21 years, and almost immediately move to press his almost evenly split state legislature to pass major police conduct reforms that he signed into law. And yes, also making a decision ultimately on how to handle his duty to safety for his citizenry.

“This call to a special session is not a call just from me. It's that primal scream you heard from people on the streets demanding justice, demanding it now and demanding us step into this moment.” --Tim Walz

We don't have to like it all, but we don't have to cherry pick either.
 
Last edited:
I don't really see any cherrypicking. I'm quite satisfied with my criticisms of Walz and I'm also satisfied with your response. It does lead me to conclude that you will support fascist state repression as it escalates in the future, so long as it is executed by democrats with polite and likeable personalities.
 
I don't really see any cherrypicking. I'm quite satisfied with my criticisms of Walz and I'm also satisfied with your response. It does lead me to conclude that you will support fascist state repression as it escalates in the future, so long as it is executed by democrats with polite and likeable personalities.

If Trump publicly stated he would support Palestine by cutting aid to Israel to zero would you vote for him.
 
No, of course not. But maybe it would be more interesting if you asked that question of liberals/progressives who subscribe to the 'lesser evilism' voting strategy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top