Serious The Politics Thread

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No, of course not. But maybe it would be more interesting if you asked that question of liberals/progressives who subscribe to the 'lesser evilism' voting strategy.

Well you see most people left of the Republicans are actually quite excited over the new potential candidates. Maybe if you expanded your viewpoints to more than one single issue you could join the excited party instead of hand-waving literally every single thing that happens as "supporting fascist state repression".

A few weeks ago we were crawling towards guaranteed defeat with Biden and suddenly everything flipped over with Harris / Walz and yet still every single time you post it's hyper focused on the Palestine issue. Despite the fact that Harris / Walz are probably a better pick for that specific issue, and 100x better than Trump. I get you're frustrated but in all likelihood the war will end before the next election anyway and a serious path to peace isn't a cease fire, it's actual good faith negotiations. Just relax a bit and look on the bright side that the rights of literally everyone not a cis / straight white male is potentially at less risk than it was a few weeks ago.
 
Listen if you just ignored the palestinian genocide youd be a lot happier about our politicians. this is a moral flaw of yours and not at all a complete failure of electorialism

So mad!

Nah I'm still gonna vote for the Democrats because not only is their track record better on Palestine, it's better than the alternative party in virtually every single thing I consider important. In fact with Biden dropping out and Walz being selected the Democrats treatment of those issues looks even better.

Israel is a wealthy country with it's own arms industry and extensive stockpiles of weapons in case of a 4th Arab war. Even if the US completely shut off literally all aid to Israel it wouldn't stop what they're doing. If you seriously give a shit about Palestine the best thing you can do is stop posting watermelons on Instagram and live in the real world where the best chance to serious long term peace is probably the Democrats winning. At least then there's a teeny tiny chance that they can negotiate something. Hey Israel and Egypt went from war every 15 years to permanent peace. Nothing is impossible.

But hand waving every fucking comment as "supporting Democrats = supporting genocide" is so unhelpful and toxic that it accomplishes absolutely zero in terms of helping Palestine.
 
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Nah I'm still gonna vote for the Democrats because not only is their track record better on Palestine,

their track record of unambiguous support to israel while sometimes saying they're going to do something and not doing anything? Saying that the palestinian genocide is gonna be the same so you should vote for x and y other reasons is at least more accurate and realistic than this.

If you seriously give a shit about Palestine the best thing you can do is stop posting Watermelons on Instagram and live in the real world where the best chance to serious long term peace is probably the Democrats winning.

1. Can you guys go one day without projecting a random leftist that you completely own onto someone youre talking to. I don't even use instagram.
2. I disagree, I don't think the dems will push the needle in any meaningful way to help palestine, they have no incentive and the fact that blue voters will immediately brush off any talk about it as either a psyop, being unwilling to compromise or unrealistic gives them even more fuel to Not Give A Shit even more than they already do.

Also idk why you feel the need to defend your vote and moralize on why its very progressive. I don't care about dem voters or abstains or any voting/anti voting campaign, I'm talking about the failures of the dem party and the american system on itself, you as an individual do not matter
 
I don't see the USA Empire ending anytime soon, there is no significant support for this among the population (most benefit from it, if only the morale boost from living in the most powerful country on Earth) and even if there was an anti-imperialist president, they would be rendered useless very quickly by the US establishment.
 
Meanwhile, Western countries are appalled at Israeli Finance Minister's comments on how the west "won't let us starve 2.3 million people"...

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich implied on Monday that he believes blocking humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip is “justified and moral” even if it causes two million civilians to die of hunger, but the international community won’t allow that to happen.

“We bring in aid because there is no choice,” Smotrich said at a conference in Yad Binyamin hosted by the right-wing Israel Hayom outlet. “We can’t, in the current global reality, manage a war. Nobody will let us cause 2 million civilians to die of hunger, even though it might be justified and moral, until our hostages are returned.

“Humanitarianism in exchange for humanitarianism is morally justified — but what can we do? We live today in a certain reality, we need international legitimacy for this war.”

Smotrich asserted that barring humanitarian aid from Gaza was more likely to get all the hostages being held by Hamas released, as opposed to the current hostage-for-ceasefire deal that is being negotiated and only ensures the release of some.

“Everyone wants to bring the hostages back, but the deal only gets a minority of hostages and condemns the majority and therefore it’s not right and not moral and it endangers the nation,” he said, adding that he was against releasing terrorists from Israeli prisons in exchange for hostages.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotr...tarve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/

...but also do absolutely nothing to prevent what is a man made, humanitarian disaster in which dozens of people are killed by missiles, bombs and snipers every single day, with children literally starving to death and disease including ones we'd almost eradicated as a planet (polio) now starting to get into the population of Gaza.

And in my country, England, Great Britain, I am delighted that counter protestors and the police have effectively undermined the racist, anti-immigration and islamaphobic rioting of the "far right" (read racist thugs).

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024...ti-racism-rallies-in-uk-after-far-right-riots
 
Meanwhile in Catalonia Police is now searching for separatist party leader Carles Puigdemont to arrest him, after Spanish Supreme Court upheld the original arrest warrant despite Amnesty Law offered by Spanish PM in May. Puigdemont already fled to Brussels years ago when Spanish government wanted to arrest him and he just returned this morning in Barcelona to hold a speech for the first time in years. Spanish TV journalist Jordi Evole even said to this new events jokingly: "Well, the new season of Lupin is not bad."
 
MrHands said:
Well you see most people left of the Republicans are actually quite excited over the new potential candidates. Maybe if you expanded your viewpoints to more than one single issue you could join the excited party instead of hand-waving literally every single thing that happens as "supporting fascist state repression".
I am an old lady and I am painfully uncool, I'm afraid. I find it hard to catch on to the new trends anymore!

The bubbling excitement over the Democratic party right now is one of these temporary trends. It is perfectly understandable, and I get the emotional need people have to feel some form of hope. I am not about false hope though, and I don't believe in lying to people. It's fine to have some fun, but reality will still be waiting there when you are ready.

On that note, here is a recent clip that I won't really comment on other than to say that it makes me angry:


Also, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with 'hyperfocusing' on a literal genocide being overseen by the United States, a country many people in this thread actually live in. I don't think it's reasonable to criticize anyone for posting about it



What's your preferred voting strategy?
To the extent that we engage with people in the United States through the electoral process, it must be tied to forms of organizing that exist outside of the electoral sphere. This is my #1 thing by far.

For this reason, I am probably most happy with things like the Uncommitted Movement and some third parties. I do not think that these things are perfect. But they have pretty good potential to take people who are maybe only politically activated during election time, and move them towards forms of engagement that are tied to some kind of positive, anti-imperialist political project--not "just vote harder for the lesser evil until the day you die."

A key piece of this is that we must not accept any strategy which demands that we lie to people or to ourselves about reality. I know I have been railing on this point a lot lately. I think it's an important point, because a common refrain from liberals and progressives is "oh but we can do both, you know! We can push people to vote for democrats and also do other organizing work!"

Okay, fair enough, you certainly can do both of those things. But can you do them without lying about extremely pertinent and urgent matters, misleading people into dead-ends? As has now been evinced countless times in this thread, the answer is no.

I use the word "lying" a bit loosely here, but I feel that I need a word with some bite to it. I don't think people are lying in an intentionally malicious way, but they are using the emotionally charged atmosphere of electoral politics as an excuse to reject or deny reality as it actually exists. Then they make these demands on others who don't 'join in on the fun.'

There is no possible way of reading through the posts in this thread without concluding that this is happening. Most recently, I have posted accurate, relevant information about Tim Walz, including criticisms from Palestinian activists in Minnesota and information about his documented violent repression of anti-racist protesters. In response to this, I am told that Tim Walz was polite and kind in how he discussed his violent repression of anti-racist protesters, and that he should be respected for this. This is a lie which denies reality. In fact, Tim Walz smeared protesters as being '80% outside agitators' as an excuse to attack them. There is not a single person in this thread who would support Walz's actions if they had been committed directly by Trump, other than Trump voters themselves.

Now if I criticize this, which I have, some respond with concerned questions about how I may vote. This feels a bit surprising. Why should some criticism of Tim Walz, which I repeat is not just accurate but actually really important to know about, prompt anyone to worry about my personal voting strategy in any way?

It is because the 'lesser evilism' voting strategy pushed by Democratic elites is exactly the opposite of the electoral strategy that I described earlier. Its goal is to disengage people from any real movements for change. It is actively hostile to the idea of people grappling with the reality around them. It's just as MrHands said: let's all just "join the excited party," no curiosity, no accountability, just vibes. Do we want to gain any knowledge about the person we're planning to elect to rule the country? No thanks, let the celebration continue! Do you have an issue with a little thing like genocide? Lol, how naive, don't you know that there is no alternative to this hell? Anyway, it's party time, and we can just smear you as a Trump supporter anyway (see clip above).

So personally, if you vote for Harris, I do not have some beef with you. I would also not be with you on that, but I can understand. My point with this post is that it is essential for us to properly understand the 'lesser evilism' strategy itself and the complacency it produces and is intended to produce. Critically, it is not a consequence-free strategy as it is typically portrayed. Ask yourself how it may become more difficult to reach someone with genuine anti-imperialist messaging in the future if they spent months being influenced into being 'Walz-pilled' or whatever by people calling themselves 'leftists.'
 
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The argument of “the other guy would be worse, vote for us” is one of those intellectually bankrupt arguments that needs ending.

And yes, if it wasn’t obvious from human history 0 - AD 2024, genocide, colonialism, imperialism and supremacism is bad, stop supporting it.

These are not difficult principles. It isn’t a difficult issue.

If you are a decent human being, you’re against all of the above.

If you’re pro rule of law and international law, your position on Gaza/West Bank and Israel is abundantly clear. The evidence is obvious and more numerous than in any other “conflict”.

So Harris playing that line of thinking, from an outsider looking in, is going to be problematic for her at best, and for those who the one issue on the table is Gaza at the minute - that is going to turn them away from her at the moment she actually needs their support.
 
Idk why Twitter is going "Kamala is just a candidate she can't do anything about Gaza except try to win the Presidency"

Did they forget she is VP to the fucking President literally right now? She is LITERALLY in the Presidential administration as we speak, she is not just A Candidate.

Obviously that doesn't make her the President but if Biden was able to drop down due to pressure, they should also be able to get the following done:

Calling for a ceasefire isn't enough. End aid now.

If you know they are going to bomb civilians and you fund the bombs, you are guilty. Period.
 
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also i'm gonna be so fr: "oh netanyahu this" "netanyahu that"

Motherfuckers we are the United States of fucking America we dispose of foreign leaders like it's Our Olympic Sport

What are you Talking About, we have the CIA overthrow elections like it's Nothing, or straight up kill them

"The United States of America simply has no tools to deal with foreign world leaders that disagrees with them" ??????????????

If our government actually disliked him he wouldn't have been in our fucking country two weeks ago DESPITE AN ICC ARREST WARNING BY THE WAY
 
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lilyhollow Thank you clarifying what you were trying to get at. Kamala Harris’ comments there are thoroughly cringe.

Also not speaking for all lesser evil voters, but I agree that it’s not without consequence— being able to rely on it is what allowed Clintonism to thrive in the first place. The idea that it’s electorally effective to as the liberal party court big money while spitting on/establishing dominance over the left and unions. This relationship allowed for the degradation of many programs and labor’s power.

Two added nuances there though… one being that, as seen in 2016, a loud vocal anti-Hillary leftist coalition that allowed a Trump win lead to the Dems to going Balistic on the left, not court the left even if the Bernie Busters were actually marginal. A withhold vote or 3rd Party vote movements can have an opposite affect in certain contexts.

Second being that I think spitting on the base is not without consequence for the Democrats either. Depending on the context… the fascist
bour·geoi·sie will never support the Dems > GOP making the right wing Dem’s aspirations difficult. If you destroy your allies on the left, long term you weaken the party’s power.

And when we reach this point, there is even a genuine portion of the bourgeoisie terrified of Trump and willing to allow the Dems to make concessions to the left.

Gaza is an especially interesting case because the situation simply CANNOT improve without the U.S.

So for better there’s no choice but to go through the U.S.
Our country and Israel have proven that nothing will change without US leaver.
 
Imagine being a Palestinian and the whole fate of your nation, your friends, your family, your livelihood, your home, your life…is not in your hands, but in the hands of the United States, declaring an “ironclad commitment” to Israel?

Whatever you may think about the Israel/Palestine conflict, nobody here surely can justify the killing of nearly 40,000 people and 2.3 million dispossessed of their homes and livelihoods?

Every single day I watch the news across a range of nations. BBC, MSNBC, Al Jazeera, France 24, etc etc. Even taking into account the Western and other biases, the vast majority agree that what Israel is doing right now is wrong.

The United States is writing itself into history in the worst possible way here - ironclad commitmment should not include an ironclad commitment to allow state sponsored murder to take place.

If the ICJ in years to come declares this was a genocide - and I personally think it’s the big push at the end of a very prolonged genocidal series of incidents against the Palestinians - then I can see the big changes in the world coming thick and fast against the United States. Arguably that’s already coming as many countries start to change to the dollar and align themselves with China and Russia.
 
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I don't see the USA Empire ending anytime soon, there is no significant support for this among the population (most benefit from it, if only the morale boost from living in the most powerful country on Earth) and even if there was an anti-imperialist president, they would be rendered useless very quickly by the US establishment.
The average empire lasts around 250 years. America is 248 years old.
 
^ It's of course impossible to make specific predictions about these things, but the United States does seem to be in decline and its ability to bully and control other nations is slipping away. Sadly it will not go out quietly, though, and it will probably only escalate its violence as it becomes more desperate. We can also see that happening with Israel itself right now.

---


A couple of updates. This is Kamala Harris' national security advisor:




This is the US State Department spokesperson supporting the idea of Israel assassinating Yahya Sinwar, Hamas' new head who is now their lead negotiator with Israel for a ceasefire (I posted information about him earlier). These demonic freaks somehow always find a way to surprise me:





Edit: Here is a quick third one:

Ambassadors from at least six countries, including the U.S. and the U.K., to Japan will skip Nagasaki atomic bombing ceremony following Israel's disinvitation


Translation: Six major powers and EU send letter to Nagasaki city: "High-ranking officials will have difficulty participating if Israel is excluded"
 
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The average empire lasts around 250 years. America is 248 years old.
This isn't a great reference point. I was suspicious of the claim, and I found it's from a 1978 book (i.e. when the social sciences were much less rigorous than they are today) by an author without formal historical or academic training. At the end of the day, what we (and historical contemporaries) define as an "empire" in the first place is a whole entire complex conversation that was seemingly given poor justice – apparently the Roman Republic was counted as an empire, but a distinct empire from the Roman Empire? What I mean to say is, how we define as an "empire" for this conversation is unpredictable and somewhat arbitrary, so any surface-level mathematical average becomes pretty meaningless. Like, just to show how deep the rabbit hole goes:

Interpretation 1: the "Roman Empire" (The Roman Civilization?) lasted from the founding of the city of Rome (625 BCE) to the end of the last successor state of the "Byzantine Empire" (1475). In other words, the Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years.

Interpretation 2: Large changes in the structure, location, administration, scope, etc. of Rome mean that we should count its various sub-entities, successors, and rump states across time as separate empires. This includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the Roman city state, The Roman Republic, the Roman Empire, the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Empire of Nicaea, the Empire of Trabzon, the Despotate of Epirus, the Despotate of the Morea, and the Empire of Thessalonica. Through an alternate interpretation of semantics, I've split one empire into 10+, cratering the "average empire length" by an order of magnitude.

-

Another type of problem is that one could easily argue that the United States / the West / the United States and Western Europe / etc. arrangement is not an "average empire" for various reasons, and/or it will reach a non-average length.

At any rate, it's more valuable to dive into the specifics of empires, but it's also hard for people to forecast events that they are contemporary with. We've surely heard ridiculous claims of eternal USA life and failed past predictions of USA collapse.
 
Liberal Twitter is going mask off with its absolute hatred for the left side of the party, basically seeing genocide as a "minor annoyance" and saying that people who are protesting Gaza are paid by Russia or something.

Having a normal one I guess.

"Save your protesting for after she wins the election!"

Why the fuck would protests after she win matter. Brother, she would be President, the President doesn't have to give a shit. By the time she would have to care (next election cycle), Israel will have destroyed Gaza in its entirety, backed by our tax dollars.
 
I am beating a dead horse but I want to come back here and say: It's bleak to see people sidelining palestines genocide with a simple "single issue voter" sentence, while then preaching about protecting anyone who isnt "cis, white or het". How minorities on the global south become an annoying thorn and just hypothetical arguments that commies like to use, and are not worth of the same fevor that minorities in the empire get from leftists. Are we not human enough to consider, unless it can make your candidate look good?

I wonder how it would feel if i flipped the script and called trans rights and the fact the two options would continue removing them, single issue voting and that if they stopped caring about it for a second they could celebrate wirh us. Maybe if you stopped looking at just that issue you'd achieve real change. Come live in the real world with us instead of posting trans rights art on instagram. This new candidate is better for the trans issue anyway - even if they put trans women in male prisons and have argued for "protecting kids from drag" - so the only way to improve is to vote for them, be realistic.
 
Genocide used to be the ultimate shame of a nation. At the minute Smotrich is wearing it as a badge of honour. The fascists are in control of Israel - make no mistake. And as a consequence of that, also in control of the United States and the survival of around 5 million Palestinians as well in Gaza and the West Bank.

For anyone associated with Palestine, it’s frightening. And if you’re Jewish and not aligned with Israel, the rhetoric coming from Israel is familiar and also frightening.

The thing I am staggered by, every day, is that normally genocidal nations tend to try and cover up the fact they’re committing a genocide. In Israel this week and last week, the current topic of debate is whether rape should be used on Palestinian prisoners as a legitimate action by the state. No, I‘m not making this up:

https://decripto.org/en/video-of-th...n-prisoner-by-israeli-army-soldiers-released/

There is actual footage of this. Footage.

You think it can’t get worse and it then it does. Every single day.

If this was happening to Americans, or Brits, how angry would we be? Would we not be up in arms over this?

But this is a daily occurrence for Palestinians.
 
Disgusting statement by Phil. I do agree that the time to pressure Harris hard is now.

But I think you can’t be effective just going ballistic. You look better if you can show a good faith effort was made to demand promises.

As soon as Biden dropped out, Rashida Tlaib demanded an audience with Kamala and assurances. It would be great if she could come forth asap on whether she could get that or anything productive from it. If not I’d fully support protests going nutz
 
You people do understand that voting for Harris/Walz doesn't mean not participating in education/organization/agitation right, and also isn't a ringing endorsement of everything they've ever done and supported, right? Do you think it's easier to operate as a leftist in America under a progressive-leaning regime or under a Republican regime?

Also not gonna lie, having a total lack of empathy for marginalized groups in America because marginalized groups in the global south have it worse is a bit fucking gross and makes me question whether you actually believe in intersectionalism at all if it doesn't directly benefit you. Interesting that transphobic concern trolling is fine as long as it's an ostensible leftist doing it.
 
You people do understand that voting for Harris/Walz doesn't mean not participating in education/organization/agitation right,
I addressed this point thoroughly in my response to your question about my voting strategy
 
Also not gonna lie, having a total lack of empathy for marginalized groups in America because marginalized groups in the global south have it worse is a bit fucking gross and makes me question whether you actually believe in intersectionalism at all if it doesn't directly benefit you. Interesting that transphobic concern trolling is fine as long as it's an ostensible leftist doing it.

1. I am a trans woman
2. Literally what part of that said that I think minorities in america deserve it. What part of "I am asking to be viewed the same way as american minorities in concern and worth" means that I want you guys to die or whatever.
Do you think my hypothetical is my desire of trans americans to get karma'd for being #american or whatever, instead of pushing back on viewing global south minorities as a lesser concern than american minorities. Why is calling trans issues a single issue voter problem in a hypothetical I don't even agree with concern trolling, but not the actual arguments of palestine being a single issue voter problem just part of reality and [insert derailing about voting kamala anyway]
 
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