CAP Buff 5 - Part 2 - Kitsunoh Buff Discussion

[shnowshner]

I've grown to prefer more modest packages versus high-power ones for Kitsunoh, which boils down to not wanting another big meta shift when we just got through Chuggalong's process, not wanting to dramatically alter what Kit does and seeks to accomplish, and the general idea that Buff Processes are often a losing race against time. That last point feels especially relevant given how much Pyroak dominated the meta post-buff, the need to tone it down after until it was just good, and the present SV landscape where saying it has a niche is definitely some D2 Astro-level copium since nobody actually uses it.

A smaller-scope package that wants Kitsunoh to fall into a more specific role feels appropriate. My ideology for buffs is that they shouldn't have the mon break into higher echelons of viability, just enough that some players would be able to see genuine value in them.

+ 15 HP
+ 8 Attack
+ 7 Spe
+ Fluffy
- Iron Fist
-5 SpD

I enjoy this package because it leans into giving Kitsunoh more stats to compete with, in a broad sense. Fluffy doesn't halve damage from every Physical attack in the game, but it works on enough that you'll find plenty of switch-in opportunities: in return, the being even more vulnerable to Fire reinforces a key weakness that Tera isn't even guaranteed to solve. Combined with access to Wisp and Sap, this looks to turn Kitsunoh into a strong physical deterrent, but still lacks meaningful ways to progress versus bulkier targets like Gliscor, Garganacl, Venomicon, Mollux, and Clefable. Knock Off is one of your best options for most of these and its not a tool unique to Kitsunoh nor a move you'd always fit.

+20 Speed
+10 Defense
+10 Attack
+ Magician
- Iron Fist

Magician is really cool for focusing on the Air Balloon interaction and our access to U-Turn. Along with appreciated boosts to stats, this makes Kitsunoh far more appealing as a mon that can use its typing + temporary Ground immunities to aid in safely switching in, and then proceeding to use its wide movepool to cripple the opponent while Magician can be used to take away their item. Having U-Turn and pseudo-Knock Off in a single button is pretty cool.

+10 Atk
+10 Spe
+Encore
+Heatproof
- Iron Fist

This is a very simple package that lets Kit utilize the already good typing to even better effect, namely shoring up the 1v1 versus Pokemon that can run Fire coverage to get past checks like Chugg, Gking, Hatt, whereas the boost to stats lets you serve better in matchups you'd want to be winning in. I would like to see this developed more in what's trying to be accomplished, as Heatproof is a really cool ability with Tera around but this doesn't make Kitsunoh that valuable as a Tera target.

+7 speed
+7 def
+6 attack
+tough claws
- iron fist

Another simple one, this doesn't do anything fancy, just makes Kitsunoh another option for a decently fast Physical attacker with wide coverage options, a fairly spammable STAB in Shadow Strike, and plenty of disruption/support options.

+14 Attack
+18 Speed
+Trace
+Encore
+Upper Hand
-Iron Fist

This is maybe my favorite sub out of them all. It solves our lacking immediate presence issue not only with significant stat boosts, but Trace is a great way to significantly improve a ton of matchups without overtly skewing the shape of the metagame, as we can utilize the benefits of strong abilities like Levitate, Regenerator, Magic Guard, and Good as Gold, without explicitly having them. Earthflax does a great job exploring the many avenues of play this provides so just read his post. Upper Hand is a meme though what the hell are you cooking.


If I have time I would like to submit a Package myself last-second but I'm already 4 minutes past when I like to leave for work and some meathead is gonna merge without looking and block traffic on the Capital Beltway so I gotta go.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Final Submission
Thank you for taking the time to review. Opportunist dropped as it seems like the biggest offender, and I think trying to make Kit able to work against Equi is a big ask - I think Parting Shot can effectively do this with the forced stat drop and bringing in something like the book. Looking into the scouting role, I think Cursed Body provides good potential as an alternative to Frisk and gives more opportunities for a safe switch.
Dragapult would need to run Scarf and roll the dice on getting OHKO'd if it wanted to enter speed wars - but it not even a guaranteed OHKO even if Kit has taken chip from Hazards, so I think that's a hard switch. Tidy Up offsets the Loss of Iron Fist slightly in the space it forces from the increased speed tier, at the expense of slightly less immediate power against other match ups.

-Iron Fist
+Cursed Body
+Parting Shot
+Tidy Up
+33 Spd

 

[lezzy cuttlefish]

I'm personally not a huge fan of the encore route. It's a good strategy that would ensure kit sees play - but the most interesting thing about the mon right now is how odd its existing utility options are for its type! Adding one more that is likely to outright outclass the others feels like it leaves a lot on the table to me.

I also don't much like opportunist. Because of Kit's relative frailty and vulnerability to types commonly used as stab by the tier's setup mons, it's just too much of a fishing strategy for my liking. Too much prediction roulette, like how often are we going to get Hemo's bulk up and how often are we gonna eat a flare blitz?

 

[spoo]

+35 Speed
- 5 SpA
+7 Defense
+Magician
-Iron Fist

Breaking the DSB (Dragapult Speed Barrier™) is a little scary for my optics brain, but I do think there's a significant difference between 145 and 150 (where the sub was previously) just in terms of the initial gut reaction from seeing a high number on your screen. I enjoy this sub a lot more now, it feels like one of the more cohesive packages that have been subbed. I think I slightly prefer the version of this package with less Speed and more bulk, but both are solid. Magician is very cool here, especially since we already have a decent proof of concept for a build like this with Tinkaton in OU. Tink is mostly useful now for its defensive profile vs Darkrai, but even before that mon was legal, you'd see people running Pickpocket Balloon Tinkaton to steal items from foes like Kingambit and Great Tusk. I'm wondering if Pickpocket is actually better than Magician here? The target list is much smaller since you can't just Magician an item away from legit anything, but it's also probably harder for the opponent to control; like, there's not much someone can to do stop you from stealing their Argh's boots if you switch in on Knock Off, whereas if you're Magician they can just switch out their Venom into something else with an item that they're comfortable losing. Kinda just thinking out loud, I'm not really sure myself tbh but food for though. Could also prob go +2 SpA instead of -5 so you sit at 550 BST.

+25 special defense
+14 speed
+Purifying Salt
-Iron Fist

Very reasonable and straightforward sub with a great ability. Giving it a unique defensive profile and leaning into special bulk definitely helps set it apart from something like physdef TWave Gholdengo. +14 instead of +16 Speed is interesting but I think I actually agree with not outspeeding Darkrai and Weavile on this package. +13 is also an option if you'd rather tie with Meow than Cresceidon - tying with Cres will probably be relevant more often since it's a more common mon, but tying with Meow is very frustrating since that matchup heavily depends on who moves first. So yea idk just pick your poison. Out of the subs that improve Kitsunoh's defensive matchup spread though, I think this one's among my favorites.

+15 Attack
+3 Defense
+28 Sp. Defense
+8 Speed
+Magic Bounce
-Limber
+Encore
+Roar

Honestly I think +Magic Bounce would be enough by itself. This ability is incredibly powerful and has given truly awful mons like Espeon and Xatu niches in OU before. HO archetypes like Psyspam/Sash spam, certain aggressive Sun builds, or even just offenses that stack multiple Rock weak mons like Gouging Fire + Kyurem would benefit massively from another good Magic Bounce user. Kitsunoh's incredible defensive typing, especially when paired with Air Balloon, would let it switch into most rockers (big exception is Garg) with little to no risk, and between utility moves like Wisp/Memento/U-turn/Wish/Defog/etc I think it's got more than enough going for it to differentiate itself from Hatterene. This package feels like a good moment to remind ourselves that we're not aiming to be strong at the end of this buff, just viable with a decent niche, and Magic Bounce definitely provides a niche.

+ 18 Speed
+ Encore
+ Opportunist
- Iron Fist

I don't really agree that we should be ringing alarm bells at the prospect of Opportunist Kitsunoh. Realistically speaking, I don't think Kitsunoh is ever countersweeping anything? Maybe if it copies a Chugg omniboost or Cawm BD (lol) vs a very weakened team? I assume this buff package ends up running something like Wisp, Encore or Sap, U-turn, Strike or Mash, and probably max HP / Speed - and like, with uninvested 103 Atk and a single attacking option, countersweeps are just never happening. I could see dropping U-turn or Wisp for a second attacking move and choosing to run Attack investment, but even then, it feels like an overblown fear. This is doubly true when looking at the actual setup mons in the tier that Opportunist is useful against; even your "safest" opportunities like Chuggalong, Zama, Dragonite, and Kyurem have coverage to punish a hard switch, and if we keep going down the list of Hemogoblin, Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Oger-W, Gouging Fire, etc... switching into any of these to try copying a boost is incredibly risky for obvious reasons. If there's any real worry about Opportunist, it's probably that Kitsunoh's mere presence in a game naturally invites a lot of 50/50s. With all that said, though - I really like this buff package, and I think it does a fantastic job at carving out a clear and useful niche without dramatically upturning Kitsunoh's pre-existing design.

+18 Spe
+20 HP
+8 Atk
+Regenerator
-Iron Fist

I briefly touched on this already but this package is sorta concerning to me both from an optics and meta POV; Steel/Ghost + Regen is like a top 3 defensive typing with a top 3 defensive ability, and then with nearly 50 extra BST thrown on, I feel like neither my emotional state or the metagame is really equipped to deal with this package. I think this would rightfully raise a lot of eyebrows outside the CAP bubble and almost definitely leave a larger impact than desired on the meta, which, again, is hardly the goal of these buff processes. Perhaps other people feel differently though - this is just my personal read of the situation.

+7 speed
+7 def
+6 attack
+tough claws
- iron fist

In some ways I really appreciate the honesty of a package like this - it's not trying to make Kitsunoh anything that it's not. At the same time, though, I feel like that's sort of the problem. Even with Tough Claws and slightly buffed stats, I'm not sure why I'm putting this Kitsunoh on a team. Offensively it's still hard outclassed by the other Ghosts in the tier, and defensively this package offers very little to help remedy Kit's real issues. I can't quite tell what Kitsunoh would run with a buff like this - maybe some sort of choiced AOA or 3a + Trick set? Or some utility set, similar to what Kitsunoh wants to run right now but effectively can't? Maybe some hybrid set with 3a and Defog or Wisp? None of these sound great to me honestly. It feels like this buff only addresses the power creep that's taken place over the years, and not the fact that Kitsunoh's current toolkit is aimless and incoherent in this meta. This package makes Kitsunoh better, but not different, and I do think we need to make Kitsunoh at least a little bit different.

+ Rage Fist
+ 8 HP
+ 8 Attack
+ 1 Speed
- Strength Sap
- Pain Split
- Wish

Rage Fist is goofy but I don't hate it. I admittedly have a hard time gauging the optics implications of handing out a move so inherently strong that it would've been outright banned from OU if not for a somewhat rigid tiering framework; like, it feels more acceptable and on-theme than something like Regen or Levitate, but I could also just be misreading the vibe lol. Who knows. Either way, I think this package probably works quite well in practice, and I appreciate how minimally it changes Kitsunoh's underlying design while still being effective.

+10 HP
+7 Atk
+7 Spe
+Levitate
-Poltergeist
-Strength Sap

Super torn about this one... I think Levitate is the single most effective and impactful change that Kitsunoh could receive, more so than even Regenerator, so it's very tempting to me. Kitsunoh suddenly gets damn good at removing hazards and has an incredible niche in the tier as a result. Still, I think it runs into similar issues as the Regen package where the optics of making a mon with the god-given defensive profile of Steel/Ghost + Levitate are just a bit much, as well as the metagame impact probably being larger than ideal. I at least appreciate that this sub gets rid of recovery and is pretty conservative with the stat buffs. This package definitely works, it just scares me a little.

+14 Attack
+18 Speed
+Trace
+Encore
+Upper Hand
-Iron Fist

Trace is cool, but I'm not sure if it's entirely practical. Walling Libra for eternity and being generally good into Oger-W - and to an extent, stealing Regen from Slowking-G (if we're okay with getting paralyzed) - are probably the biggest boons here, and the rest of the stuff just feels like window dressing. The stat buffs and Encore also go a long way, so I think this package probably lands us in the right strength zone that we're aiming for - it just feels a little random to me compared to some other more targeted approaches like quziel's or kenn's, and I'd say the risk of undershooting is nonzero. Also bro what is upper hand doing here

+14 Atk
+10 Spe
+Encore
+Heatproof
- Iron Fist

I like this one for the same reasons I like the Purifying Salt package. I'm a little worried that it's not quite impactful enough, though; I think for most Fire-types like Gouging Fire, Heatran, Mollux, etc, the matchups are still losing for us, with the same being true into other mons that carry non-STAB Fire coverage like Stratagem and Chuggalong. Maybe we'd eat a hit from these mons where we didn't before, but the matchup as a whole doesn't fundamentally change. Even for Hemogoblin, one of the matchups we'd improve the most on paper, I'm not actually sure we win the 1v1 without both Encore and Strength Sap if we switch in on Flare Blitz. We do beat Cinderace if we have Strength Sap, which is cool.

+ 20 HP
+12 Atk
+16 Speed
+ Encore
+ Perish Body
- Iron Fist

I think if there were different contact attackers in the meta then this would be very cool. Kitsunoh briefly ran Perish Song on one popular stall team at the end of SS to deal with certain bulky setup mons like CM Reuniclus and Tapu Fini, so the idea isn't completely unproven. Unfortunately, Perish Body in SV just doesn't quite fill that same niche; when it comes to contact attackers that want to stay in for multiple turns, generally for setup purposes, there aren't many to begin with and we kinda just lose to most of them, with Zama being the one notable exception. Dope idea but I think for this meta it wouldn't be too useful.

Sorry I didn't cover every package I was getting tired. Some of my preferences would shift around with further edits to the packages, but these are my current favorites:
Tier 1 quziel (Magician), kenn (Opportunist)
Tier 2 cuttlefish (Purifying Salt), DPM (Rage Fist), Earthflax (Trace)
Tier 3 Buns (Tough Claws), mystery duck (Heatproof), Sceptic (Perish Body), Brigtel (Levitate)
Tier 4 dex (Regen), ryan (Magic Bounce)

 

[kenn]

Final Submission

+ 8 Attack
+ 11 Defense
+ 18 Speed
+ Encore
+ Opportunist
- Iron Fist

+8 Attack allows Kitsunoh to OHKO Iron Boulder with Shadow Strike after Stealth Rock damage. +11 Defense allows Kitsunoh to live 252+ Dragonite's Earthquake from full. +18 Speed allows Kit to outspeed +1 Dragonite as well as Weavile and Darkrai. Encore + Opportunist has fantastic synergy as Kitsunoh can outspeed most things, Encore them into their set up move, and set up alongside them. Encore also has just great general utility due to Kit's fantastic support movepool.

This buff package aims to disrupt the offensive nature of not just the meta, but this whole generation because there is a ton of setup sweepers that are really good at what they do and Kit being able to "steal" those boosts flips the momentum easily and forces mons to take heed before they go clicking their setup move.

Set

Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Air Balloon
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- Encore
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp / Close Combat / Earthquake / any sort of coverage

I decide to repost this with the slight changes I made adding in a small Attack buff alongside a decently sized Defense buff to help Kitsunoh be team worthy should Opportunist not get the opportunity to shine.

 

[the mystery duck]

Final Submission #2

+2 Spe
+Flash Fire
- Iron Fist

The increase in speed is for outrunning mons in the base 110 crowd. Flash Fire improves Kitsunoh's defensive typing for both switch-ins and 1v1 matchups, like Chuggalong and Hemogoblin.

 

[Brambane]

Hello everyone, below is the final slate:

FINAL SUB
+12 Speed (110 to 122)
+7 Defense (85 to 92)
+6 Attack (103 to 109)
+Tough Claws
-Iron Fist

A direct buff to Kitsunoh’s physical prowess, this change simply improves what Kitsunoh already does by making it faster and stronger. It doesn’t try to reinvent Kitsunoh, but updates it to the higher power level of the current generation. Tough Claw Shadow Strike is a threat to most switch-ins, and Kitsunoh has Close Bombat and U-turn to answer the rest. This spread is balanced by a lower Speed, leaving it purposely vulnerable to offensive pressure from Meowscarada, Cresceidon, and Darkrai. If you want Kitsunoh to lean in on attacking with its signature move and strong coverage, this is a strong direction for the CAP.

Final Submission
+14 Attack (103 to 117)
+18 Speed (110 to 128)
+Trace
+Encore
+Upper Hand
-Iron Fist

Trace gives Kitsunoh flexible and fun outplay potential. While inconsistent by nature, stealing Levitate or Regenerator is excellent for Kitsunoh, and if you can some in on Levitate Equilibra’s Earth Power then you have Encore. The Attack and Speed buffs with Encore add consistency to an ability that can feel difficult to utilize in some match-ups, creating an all-around strong package. Outspeeding Darkrai gives Kitsunoh an edge when it doesn’t switch directly in on the threat. Upper Hand is also here to tilt some poor player that thinks their Kingambit has the game on lock.

Final Submission
+8 Attack (103 to 111)
+11 Defense (85 to 96)
+18 Speed (110 to 128)
+Encore
+Opportunist
-Iron Fist

Similar to the previous buff package, this spread has consistency from 128 Speed and Encore. Instead of Trace, it leans in on Opportunist to dissuade or react to set-up sweepers. Opportunist gives Kitsunoh a unique defensive and offensive utility for teams, making set-up moves more risky. The Speed buff really lays the pressure on Darkrai, who doesn’t want to eat U-turn or Close Combat. With an overall strong stat increase and potential game-flipping ability, these changes definitely push Kitsunoh in a bold new direction that completely reinvents its role.

Final Submission
+25 Special Defense (80 to 105)
+14 Speed (110 to 124)
+Purifying Salt
-Iron Fist

Recapturing some of Kitsunoh’s defensive glory, Purifying Salt doesn’t make Kitsunoh an answer to Ghost-types but helps even the match-up. The extra Special Defense is relevant considering that Gholdeno and Dragapult lean in on special Ghost STAB. The intentional lower Speed is a good balancing point for the higher bulk, keeping Darkrai a bigger threat against Kitsunoh. Overall, this buff package doesn’t challenge or outcompete anything in the format, but simply makes Kitsunoh better with more bulk, Speed, and defensive utility from switching into most status moves.

Final Submission 2:
+20 Speed (110 to 130)
+10 Defense (85 to 95)
+10 Attack (103 to 113)
+ Magician
- Iron Fist

Magician has niche applications alongside consumable items like Air Balloon, effectively yoinking Leftovers and Heavy-Duty Boots off of common Pokemon like Equilibra or Venomicon. The main thing about this buff package is the generally strong stat buff. This package stands out with high Speed and decent Attack, while ticking up Defense to make Kitsunoh a better defensive CAP against Zamazenta and other physical sets. Kitsunoh has always thrived with leveraging its Speed and with the highest Speed on the slate, this package intends to follow-up on that gameplan.

---

There has been a variety of support and fair critique in the thread and I thank everyone who contributed to the conversation. I ultimately decided to remove a Regenerator option and add an Opportunist option based on discussion from this thread and Discord. I also went with the slower Magician option since outspeeding Dragapult, while potentially not broken, redefines a lot of how we look at Speed in the CAP metagame and a slower spread was a more measured option. Overall, it has been clear that our community has identified that Kitsunoh needed notable staff buff and an ability that either emphasized the strengths it already has or reinvents the Pokemon's utility for a team. I hope this slate helps us create a more viable, fun, and interesting Kitsunoh for the community to enjoy.

Thank you to everyone who participated!