Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I want to echo the above post, too many people refuse to branch out into other tiers. I think this comes from the idea that lower tiers are inferior, when they’re actually just a different group of mons to use with a different meta. There’s nothing making you only play ou, if you don’t like it try something else! I personally don’t mind ou but branching out and trying uu, ru, natdex, and oldgens keeps the game fresh for me.
i do respect the people who play lower tiers, but i personally have a lot of trouble getting into them. it's nothing to do with their quality—in fact, i think most of them are better metas than this one—but i don't like that they can be, and often are, thrown into chaos and anarchy at the whims of higher tiers. for example, let's say you're playing uu and there's some really good and healthy glue mon that holds together the entirety of the meta. everything's fine and dandy, no problems, things are going swimmingly, then a bunch of people in ou start using it. bam, suddenly your glue's gone and there's nothing you can do about it. and the further down you go, the higher the chances are of this happening because the more tiers are above you to potentially snatch up your meta staples like it's crab fishing season. don't get me wrong, i'm not proposing we change the process or anything, it works fine, i'm just not really a fan of the uncertainty
 
i do respect the people who play lower tiers, but i personally have a lot of trouble getting into them. it's nothing to do with their quality—in fact, i think most of them are better metas than this one—but i don't like that they can be, and often are, thrown into chaos and anarchy at the whims of higher tiers. for example, let's say you're playing uu and there's some really good and healthy glue mon that holds together the entirety of the meta. everything's fine and dandy, no problems, things are going swimmingly, then a bunch of people in ou start using it. bam, suddenly your glue's gone and there's nothing you can do about it. and the further down you go, the higher the chances are of this happening because the more tiers are above you to potentially snatch up your meta staples like it's crab fishing season. don't get me wrong, i'm not proposing we change the process or anything, it works fine, i'm just not really a fan of the uncertainty
That’s totally valid, but if there’s any time to get into lower tiers it’s now. The less frequent tier shifts mean they have a little more stability.
 
i do respect the people who play lower tiers, but i personally have a lot of trouble getting into them. it's nothing to do with their quality—in fact, i think most of them are better metas than this one—but i don't like that they can be, and often are, thrown into chaos and anarchy at the whims of higher tiers.
Isn't that literally svou. Also what y'all thoughts on :primarina: as a wallbreaker/setup mon
 
Has anyone else encountered the issue of, when attempting to build balance in this generation, the team just tends towards BO, by virtue of the threat saturation that has to be accounted for in the builder?

I'm by no means the best teambuilder, and it's likely down to an issue on my part, but I'm just curious if anyone has had a similar experience, and if so, how did you overcome it?
 
Has anyone else encountered the issue of, when attempting to build balance in this generation, the team just tends towards BO, by virtue of the threat saturation that has to be accounted for in the builder?

I'm by no means the best teambuilder, and it's likely down to an issue on my part, but I'm just curious if anyone has had a similar experience, and if so, how did you overcome it?
Yes! That is actually my issue. It's hard not to turn to BO when you need to wipe these threats out. I'm not even sure what balance is anymore.

i do respect the people who play lower tiers, but i personally have a lot of trouble getting into them. it's nothing to do with their quality—in fact, i think most of them are better metas than this one—but i don't like that they can be, and often are, thrown into chaos and anarchy at the whims of higher tiers. for example, let's say you're playing uu and there's some really good and healthy glue mon that holds together the entirety of the meta. everything's fine and dandy, no problems, things are going swimmingly, then a bunch of people in ou start using it. bam, suddenly your glue's gone and there's nothing you can do about it. and the further down you go, the higher the chances are of this happening because the more tiers are above you to potentially snatch up your meta staples like it's crab fishing season. don't get me wrong, i'm not proposing we change the process or anything, it works fine, i'm just not really a fan of the uncertainty
Haha! Too true. It's exactly those uncertainties that I appreciate about lower tiers.

The only thing tethering me to this tier is Meow. And maybe the bear.
 
Has anyone else encountered the issue of, when attempting to build balance in this generation, the team just tends towards BO, by virtue of the threat saturation that has to be accounted for in the builder?

I'm by no means the best teambuilder, and it's likely down to an issue on my part, but I'm just curious if anyone has had a similar experience, and if so, how did you overcome it?

Same here. I always feel like my team is closer to BO (sometimes even HO) or bulky (sometimes even stall, semi-stall) because there are just so many things to consider in teambuilding.

"I need things to check X". "Oh wait, what if X teras and threatens my mon back / sets up in front of me?"

Just the thougt of going through that process makes teambuilding tiring for me. I have always stucked with 1 team. Not because I love it or anything, it's just building a new team feels terrible because whenever I try to test it, it will always miss out something.
 
I say this without sarcasm - you sound like you'd be much happier with the lower tiers, where the extremes aren't nearly so extreme. Try UU, where Lokix - a first route bug! - is one of the primary gatekeepers.

Perhaps I may try. I may consider going back to gen 8 OU too. Yeah, Lele still claims a kill when it goes in and Toxapex has Knock, Scald and 16PP Recover, but it also means slower wallbreakers like Crawdaunt and Nidoking can still switch in, do something good and then switch out.
 
Isn't that literally svou
not exactly. here, it's all voluntary what mons do and don't get removed from or added to the tier. we don't have to worry about arceus-bug crashing through the ceiling all of a sudden and having to deal with that for a day, or losing tusk or ting-lu or lando just because they're good glue in ubers too. meanwhile, uu had to unban and reban iron hands like four times because we kept stealing skeledirge
 
Isn't this applicable to most of the offensive threats in this gens tier? I don't see how this is any different from a team randomly getting blanked by like...taunt Roaring Moon. Unless you run full stall the offensive threats in this tier will always have a set that will sweep you unless you take it out before it sets up or is in a winning position. I don't see how Kyurem is any more or less of a problem with this logic than Gouging, Ogre, etc. Subtect is the new hotness but its definitely has enough answers and stopgaps where its not even an auto win against the teams its supposed to prey on. If you get frozen thats unlucky but thats pokemon. its a hax ass, luck based game inherently.

because with taunt roaring moon you at least have some defensive options to get around it on balance or bulky offense (i.e. sticky barb clefable, bulky landorus-T) and it's also important to note that this set is completely hardstopped by kingambit. with sub kyurem you can just PP stall all your would-be switch-ins and repeatedly fish for freeze behind a sub. this set literally uses kyurem's so-called checks as setup fodder. not only that but you still have to worry about running into mixed or DD or choice specs which also have very limited counterplay. taunt RM wishes it could destabilize bulkier playstyles as effortlessly as kyurem does
 
because with taunt roaring moon you at least have some defensive options to get around it on balance or bulky offense (i.e. sticky barb clefable, bulky landorus-T) and it's also important to note that this set is completely hardstopped by kingambit. with sub kyurem you can just PP stall all your would-be switch-ins and repeatedly fish for freeze behind a sub. this set literally uses kyurem's so-called checks as setup fodder. not only that but you still have to worry about running into mixed or DD or choice specs which also have very limited counterplay. taunt RM wishes it could destabilize bulkier playstyles as effortlessly as kyurem does

How is it hard stopped by gambit? DD/taunt/Knock/xxx last move can be anything like earthquake/brick break/tera blast. I wouldn't say it hard stops it and you can't exactly switch it boosted RM and assume it wont click one of those moves.

The most bullshit aspect of that Kyurem set is the freeze chance. Its quite a few things that can be built to literally just boost and sit on it but unfortunately they can be frozen, which is bullshit but once again. Pokemon at its core is a game of trying to curtail the bad luck the game is going to eventually give you.
 
Also what y'all thoughts on :primarina: as a wallbreaker/setup mon

Prim is a very good mon with a lot of viable sets, from an AV pivot, to choice specs, to a Calm Mind setup mon. As for wallbreaking, the primary advantage Prim has flor that is anti-healing. Psychic Noise can be made Water STAB with Liquid Voice, making it a further problem for many defensive mons. You can hit many of the glue Ground type mons super effectively while also being able to hit Dark and Tera Dark mons with the anti-heals.

The main mons that counter this strat are Wellspring and the rarer Water Absorb Clodsire. Clod is easier to deal with due to how passive it is. Wellspring is the harder to deal with of the two, since it can come in and force you into a situation where something probably dies. Wellspring is also bad for slow Flip Turn pivots because it steals the momentum and provides an immediate threat. There is also the potential for Encore on Water STAB or even CM. Therefore, my advice for anybody using Flip Turn or Liquid Voice Psychic Noise as a crutch on Prim is to have a team that can deal with Waterpon. But otherwise, it is a really good mon.

My personal favorite Prim strat is Calm Mind with Psychic Noise, Draining Kiss, and Stored Power. You get Water/Fairy STAB for anti-healing/healing and Stored Power allows you to hit Clod and most other walls very hard. And even if it wind up being Tera Dark/Water Absorb, you still hit it with STAB Draining Kiss. If it is not either of those things, Psychic Noise and/or Stored Power can take it out.

Ironically, considering our prior conversation, CM Prim can be one of the better Covert Cloak mons. In addition to dumping on Garg, you tend to have an advantage against other CM setup mons. Psychic Noise would not stop you from healing with Draining Kiss, but you could likely do the same to them. There is also Darkrai. While it having Poison coverage is dangerous, you can use Tera Steel and not necesarrily need to worry about it. The cloak will prevent any hax, making Prim a fairly reliable check. Tera Steel cloak also allows you to potentially be a soft check to Kyurem without needing to worry about Freeze.

Has anyone else encountered the issue of, when attempting to build balance in this generation, the team just tends towards BO, by virtue of the threat saturation that has to be accounted for in the builder?

I'm by no means the best teambuilder, and it's likely down to an issue on my part, but I'm just curious if anyone has had a similar experience, and if so, how did you overcome it?

I have had similar problems of intended balance teams morphing to BO. Additionally, I also experienced the problem of some of my teams leaning too much towards HO. I realized that my issues primarily stemmed from what glue mons I was looking at. When I looked at mostly threats and/or used Zama too much as a crutch, my teams leaned more towards HO or at least some sort of offense. When I looked more towards building around cores of slower paced walls like Moltres, Glowking, Gliscor, or Fat Luvdisc, I was able to bring the teams back more towards balance. Another key for me was finding some walls with sustain rather than stuff like Tusk or Bolt, which while having bulk and also often working very well on balance, cannot make a long term defensive core by themselves due to lack of sustain. This isn't to say you cannot use mons like that. I often do use Tusk and Bolt as glue mons. They just cannot be the entire defensive core. A balance team needs to be able to last longer term than an offense team.

So the key for me was to make sure my defensive cores had enough sustain in them and that I wasn't just adding an offensive way to deal with everything.

Of course, you also need to add enough offense to make it a balance in more limited slots. But I find myself having grown more naturally offensive minded this gen or maybe in general. So I had to force myself to think slower paced on purpose. Perhaps other people are different. If you or anyone reading this struggles adding offense without turning the team more towards that direction, I would just encourage you do be a lot more picky about the offensive mons you do use because balance has more limited slots for everything.
 
Prim is a very good mon with a lot of viable sets, from an AV pivot, to choice specs, to a Calm Mind setup mon. As for wallbreaking, the primary advantage Prim has flor that is anti-healing. Psychic Noise can be made Water STAB with Liquid Voice, making it a further problem for many defensive mons. You can hit many of the glue Ground type mons super effectively while also being able to hit Dark and Tera Dark mons with the anti-heals.

The main mons that counter this strat are Wellspring and the rarer Water Absorb Clodsire. Clod is easier to deal with due to how passive it is. Wellspring is the harder to deal with of the two, since it can come in and force you into a situation where something probably dies. Wellspring is also bad for slow Flip Turn pivots because it steals the momentum and provides an immediate threat. There is also the potential for Encore on Water STAB or even CM. Therefore, my advice for anybody using Flip Turn or Liquid Voice Psychic Noise as a crutch on Prim is to have a team that can deal with Waterpon. But otherwise, it is a really good mon.

My personal favorite Prim strat is Calm Mind with Psychic Noise, Draining Kiss, and Stored Power. You get Water/Fairy STAB for anti-healing/healing and Stored Power allows you to hit Clod and most other walls very hard. And even if it wind up being Tera Dark/Water Absorb, you still hit it with STAB Draining Kiss. If it is not either of those things, Psychic Noise and/or Stored Power can take it out.

Ironically, considering our prior conversation, CM Prim can be one of the better Covert Cloak mons. In addition to dumping on Garg, you tend to have an advantage against other CM setup mons. Psychic Noise would not stop you from healing with Draining Kiss, but you could likely do the same to them. There is also Darkrai. While it having Poison coverage is dangerous, you can use Tera Steel and not necesarrily need to worry about it. The cloak will prevent any hax, making Prim a fairly reliable check. Tera Steel cloak also allows you to potentially be a soft check to Kyurem without needing to worry about Freeze.



I have had similar problems of intended balance teams morphing to BO. Additionally, I also experienced the problem of some of my teams leaning too much towards HO. I realized that my issues primarily stemmed from what glue mons I was looking at. When I looked at mostly threats and/or used Zama too much as a crutch, my teams leaned more towards HO or at least some sort of offense. When I looked more towards building around cores of slower paced walls like Moltres, Glowking, Gliscor, or Fat Luvdisc, I was able to bring the teams back more towards balance. Another key for me was finding some walls with sustain rather than stuff like Tusk or Bolt, which while having bulk and also often working very well on balance, cannot make a long term defensive core by themselves due to lack of sustain. This isn't to say you cannot use mons like that. I often do use Tusk and Bolt as glue mons. They just cannot be the entire defensive core. A balance team needs to be able to last longer term than an offense team.

So the key for me was to make sure my defensive cores had enough sustain in them and that I wasn't just adding an offensive way to deal with everything.

Of course, you also need to add enough offense to make it a balance in more limited slots. But I find myself having grown more naturally offensive minded this gen or maybe in general. So I had to force myself to think slower paced on purpose. Perhaps other people are different. If you or anyone reading this struggles adding offense without turning the team more towards that direction, I would just encourage you do be a lot more picky about the offensive mons you do use because balance has more limited slots for everything.
Great write-up, and thank you for the thoughtful response! I've found myself naturally tending towards Zama, Glowking, and Sinistcha, when attempting to build balance, and I've not been able to structure my team cohesively enough to stand up long-term and cover the various threats that plague the tier, without leaning towards stuff like Bolt and Gouging Fire (hence the ~500 ELO drop on my current ladder account lol)
 
Isn't this applicable to most of the offensive threats in this gens tier? I don't see how this is any different from a team randomly getting blanked by like...taunt Roaring Moon. Unless you run full stall the offensive threats in this tier will always have a set that will sweep you unless you take it out before it sets up or is in a winning position. I don't see how Kyurem is any more or less of a problem with this logic than Gouging, Ogre, etc. Subtect is the new hotness but its definitely has enough answers and stopgaps where its not even an auto win against the teams its supposed to prey on. If you get frozen thats unlucky but thats pokemon. its a hax ass, luck based game inherently.

Significantly higher set variance. Unlike the other mons you listed which are tethered to one attack stat, Kyurem effectively runs physical and special (and mixed) sets.
 
not exactly. here, it's all voluntary what mons do and don't get removed from or added to the tier. we don't have to worry about arceus-bug crashing through the ceiling all of a sudden and having to deal with that for a day, or losing tusk or ting-lu or lando just because they're good glue in ubers too. meanwhile, uu had to unban and reban iron hands like four times because we kept stealing skeledirge
This is hilarious. I was so pissed in Sun/Moon UU because that stupid mushroom wouldnt stay his ass in OU.
 
Here are imo 3 mons that are kinda underused rn;

:ogerpon: has so much potential due to being able to hold an item and getting perm speed from tera. Personally, boots pivot sets with encore look promising

sd :gliscor:. I haven't seen usage stats at all but I feel that sd :gliscor: kinda underrated due to how hard it is to put on teams(there better setup options and saccing hazards for sd feels kinda ehh)

The aforementioned :primarina:. Like what someone said above, it's a great pivot with either av or boots, specs or setup with cm. Imo an insane abuser of tera and with psychic noise/liquid voice psychic noise, it's a great answer to stall(also I haven't found :clodsire: to be an issue since unaware let's you blow past with water stab and water absorb let's you boost to oblivion)
 
"Zamazenta is oppressive and versatile, but it's healthy because it counters problematic things like Kingambit.
Kingambit is probably broken and has unwanted 50/50 and reverse sweeps with low skill involved, due to the volatility of Terastal combined with Sucker Punch. But it's necessary for unhealthy things like Gholdengo.
Gholdengo is unhealthy, but it's a necessary evil for things like Zamazenta."


Personally, I'd like to see all 3 of them burn in hell, they're too centralizing.

Gliscor is certainly annoying, but the current powercreep is still enough to defeat it, removing Gliscor from the tier would be the final nail in the coffin to make Stall completely unviable. It shouldn't be a priority at the moment.

The least controversial path seems to be Kyurem and Gouging not Fine.

Tera Blast is just the tip of the iceberg called Terastal, I deeply dislike it, but I disagree with addressing it separately from the mechanics.

OLT Cycle 1 was exciting, despite the unpleasant endgames with Kingambit. Cycles 2 and 3 were pretty lukewarm. I hope for a more exciting Cycle 4 again.
 
i do respect the people who play lower tiers, but i personally have a lot of trouble getting into them. it's nothing to do with their quality—in fact, i think most of them are better metas than this one—but i don't like that they can be, and often are, thrown into chaos and anarchy at the whims of higher tiers. for example, let's say you're playing uu and there's some really good and healthy glue mon that holds together the entirety of the meta. everything's fine and dandy, no problems, things are going swimmingly, then a bunch of people in ou start using it. bam, suddenly your glue's gone and there's nothing you can do about it. and the further down you go, the higher the chances are of this happening because the more tiers are above you to potentially snatch up your meta staples like it's crab fishing season. don't get me wrong, i'm not proposing we change the process or anything, it works fine, i'm just not really a fan of the uncertainty

I used to adore lower tiers when they had more stability. The monthly huge changes are a little silly imo. I don’t think usage should be the only thing considered. I’d love if lower tiers actually had more control over their metagames.
 
Why not everyone ? Or an separate survey, it’s can be a good idea ig
We had another survey recently and I’d expect a general one coming in a month or two, too. We just like spacing them out a bit more as they were used a bit too frequently earlier this generation, leading to diminished returns. Right now, we are focused on what current and informed players think
 
Please survey them over Tera Blast.

It seems the discussion is being guard railed towards Kyurem and Gouging despite council and top players also mentioning Tera Blast.

Please see what our current and informed players think. They may still prioritize gouging and i can accept that but please survey
i don't believe a tera blast ban has the popular support it'd need at the moment. there are a handful of top players who are very vocal about their distaste of it, and their opinion is valid, but nearly all discussion of problematic things has been mentioning kyurem and gouging as the biggest problems. that's why those things in particular are being targeted, not because people are trying to "guard rail" discussion towards them
 
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