Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[bellchime]

Good morning. I'm here to also add to the posts before mine that are in favour of action regarding Ogerpon-H. I have historically been against banning Hearthflame, but the first week of 1v1 Premier League VIII has definitely shifted my opinion, as it forced me to take a much more in depth look at the tier. I don't usually make more in-depth posts about the tier like this, but I definitely think that Hearthflame makes this post necessary. I will be making two relatively short arguments towards why Hearthflame should be banned before I have to go to class, which leaves out a lot to say about the strengths of this Pokemon, but it's what I have time for right now.

I'd like to begin by presenting the SV usage stats for Week 1 of 1v1 Premier League VIII. The arguments I will make will draw heavily from Week 1's usage stats, as I think that is the highest level of play that we have seen as of right now.

Week 1 Usage Stats

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Primarina          |   24 |  22.22% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |   22 |  20.37% |  45.45% |
| 3    | Gouging Fire       |   20 |  18.52% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Pecharunt          |   18 |  16.67% |  44.44% |
| 5    | Regidrago          |   15 |  13.89% |  53.33% |
| 6    | Hoopa-Unbound      |   13 |  12.04% |  46.15% |
| 7    | Corviknight        |   12 |  11.11% |  75.00% |
| 8    | Iron Crown         |   11 |  10.19% |  63.64% |
| 8    | Landorus-Therian   |   11 |  10.19% |  36.36% |
| 10   | Ursaluna           |   10 |   9.26% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Goodra-Hisui       |    9 |   8.33% |  55.56% |
| 12   | Raging Bolt        |    8 |   7.41% |  37.50% |
| 12   | Azumarill          |    8 |   7.41% |  25.00% |
| 14   | Volcarona          |    7 |   6.48% |  42.86% |
| 14   | Annihilape         |    7 |   6.48% |  42.86% |
| 14   | Urshifu            |    7 |   6.48% |  28.57% |
| 17   | Volcanion          |    6 |   5.56% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Iron Valiant       |    6 |   5.56% |  16.67% |
| 19   | Registeel          |    5 |   4.63% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Meowscarada        |    5 |   4.63% |  60.00% |
| 21   | Dragapult          |    4 |   3.70% |  75.00% |
| 21   | Landorus           |    4 |   3.70% |  75.00% |
| 21   | Sylveon            |    4 |   3.70% |  75.00% |
| 21   | Manaphy            |    4 |   3.70% |  75.00% |
| 21   | Cresselia          |    4 |   3.70% |  75.00% |
| 21   | Moltres-Galar      |    4 |   3.70% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Zapdos             |    4 |   3.70% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Tyranitar          |    4 |   3.70% |  25.00% |
| 29   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    3 |   2.78% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Sneasler           |    3 |   2.78% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Garchomp           |    3 |   2.78% |  66.67% |
| 29   | Metagross          |    3 |   2.78% |  66.67% |
| 29   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |    3 |   2.78% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Heatran            |    3 |   2.78% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Torterra           |    3 |   2.78% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Tinkaton           |    3 |   2.78% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Porygon-Z          |    3 |   2.78% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Ninetales-Alola    |    3 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Darkrai            |    3 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Haxorus            |    2 |   1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Bellibolt          |    2 |   1.85% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Scizor             |    2 |   1.85% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Iron Moth          |    2 |   1.85% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Zapdos-Galar       |    2 |   1.85% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Whimsicott         |    2 |   1.85% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Iron Hands         |    2 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Rillaboom          |    2 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Roaring Moon       |    2 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Chien-Pao          |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Mamoswine          |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Skeledirge         |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Espathra           |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Enamorus           |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Walking Wake       |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Iron Boulder       |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Sableye            |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Kyurem             |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Empoleon           |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Great Tusk         |    1 |   0.93% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Zarude             |    1 |   0.93% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Latias             |    1 |   0.93% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Greninja-*         |    1 |   0.93% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.93% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Arcanine           |    1 |   0.93% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Klefki             |    1 |   0.93% |   0.00% |

Argument 1: We need to weaken Fire-types.
One of the things I try to take a look at each week are trends based on typing. By combining the SV Bo7 and SV Bo5 slots, and gathering all the replays, we have ended up with a total of 51 replays in Week 1. In these 51 replays, we have seen a total of 62 Fire-types. Of these 62 Fire-types, 42 of them, which is more than 2/3rd, are either Ogerpon-H or Gouging Fire. The remaining twenty of the Fire-types consist of Volcarona, Volcanion, Heatran, Iron Moth, Skeledirge, and Arcanine. Out of this list, I think Ogerpon-H is the problem because of the secondary typing. Grass-type allows it to invalidate so many of the regular checks to Fire-types by giving it a STAB Wood Hammer or Power Whip into Water-, Rock, and Ground-types, but gives it weakness to Flying- and Poison-types. However, the most used Flying-type is Corviknight, which does not appreciate an Ivy Cudgel, while the most used Poison-type is Pecharunt with 18 uses, which is one of the best answers to Ogerpon-H, but the second most used is Sneasler, with a grand total of three uses. Even though there's a good number of ways to beat Ogerpon-H with some reliability, there's a lot of somewhat good matchups that it can just tech through, which I'll cover later on.

Argument 2: Ogerpon-H has incredible Set Variability, Tech Options, and Neutral Matchups.
Ogerpon's strength over the rest of the Fire-types in the meta also comes from its insane set variability. While I don't think that setguessing Ogerpon-H is near impossible, I think that the sheer amount of possible sets makes Ogerpon harder to setguess than it really should be. I'm not going to go too deep into this point because RTM put more time into it than I am willing to put, but his post really does highlight Ogerpon's strenghts really well regarding this. Even outside of the main sets, Ogerpon has many ways around somewhat decent checks. Landorus, for example, is considered one of the better answers into Ogerpon-H, but Ogerpon can lure a Life Orb or Choice Scarf Landorus with a SpD Trailblaze set like the following.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame @ Hearthflame Mask 
Ability: Mold Breaker 
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 252 SpD / 184 Spe 
Careful Nature 
- Trailblaze 
- Wood Hammer 
- Ivy Cudgel 
- Encore

I am actually just leaking something I wanted to use in PL this week atp, so I'm really hoping that council takes a look at this. While this cannot beat Specs, it allows you to just slap an Encore + Disable Pokemon next to it, like Iron Valiant, which further lures Landorus. Even amongst the Pokemon that RTM did not list out, there's ways to let Ogerpon-H tech for them due to the sheer amount of options it has with its strong STABs and incredible movepool for 1v1, and like RTM, I don't consider that the opportunity cost argument works as well here as it did with many Pokemon that were on the chopping block in the past. I consider matchups in which typing does not play a large role neutral matchups. Again, RTM made a list of what it can beat with its main sets, which I encourage people to take a look at and consider how large of a swath of the metagame that Ogerpon-H can beat, even with neutral or disadvantaged type matchups.

Ogerpon-H is incredibly strong to me and has crossed the line at which I consider a Pokemon broken. Even though this is relatively short and undetailed, as I don't have the time to make a full length post about Ogerpon-H, I'm strongly on the ban Ogerpon-H train and would prefer to see it quickbanned into resuspected, as I think it creates an incredibly unhealthy PL meta.

 

[luser]

I am not 100% familiar with what non-setcomp sets ogerpon-h runs, so i'm underestimating its capabilities in the rest of the post. I also refuse to read 1v1cord so idk if im repeating what people have said there.

Can I interest you in some sound or multihit moves?

Which sound move? Hyper voice sylveon does not win. Specs hyper voice raging bolt does not win (50/50s subseed). Bug buzz volcarona does not win. Uproar porygon-z does not win. Only mon on the setcomp who wins using a sound move is 252/252+ def torch song + blast burn skeledirge.

Which multihit move? Rock blast rhyp does not win. No single ttar set wins (most die to superpower, choples not killing so 50/50). Tachyon iron crown loses. Maushold rarely kills counter (too lazy to do the full math rn, 6.3% to kill with no crits, 35% to crit at least once, 10% to miss, and 1 crit + lowroll the rest does not kill so id guess ~30% generously). Icicle spear + scale shot baxcalibur has to 50/50 (icicle spear loses to counter sets, scale shot loses to rock tomb sets) Dual wingbeat staraptor?? Thank god tier saved

Yeah but you can only play one set at a time, so this doesn't mean anything.

Thanks for the insight! This is actually true of every mon, but some mons are still broken despite this limitation!

If u were to actually read rtms post u would see that not only can it pretty flexibly "tech" 85/101 mons, but that even its basic sets beat almost half of the metagame. There is very little opportunity cost in running say, spd superpower ogrepon for porygon-z because you can be confident that it will still beat corv, iron crown, non-custap prim, spectrier, etc. Compare it to other techy mons like ss togekiss, which while it can basically beat any mon on the vr, has to run dumb shit like wacan agility counter roost charm or choice specs incinerate in order to beat other top mons. Ogerpon can beat almost the entire vr using viable sets.

It would be nice if your post had some examples in it instead of sweeping generalizations. Somehow in your post about pokemon you do not name a single other pokemon.
- STABLEPRINCE

 

[fruan]

Uproar porygon-z does not win.

I do want to note that unless ogerpon is running superpower pz is extremely favored for anyone that knows how to ev a little bit. I agree that ogerpon is annoying generally, though its individual sets have never really impressed me but that is just me. It is extremely versatile, maybe even too much, and would be in favor of a suspect.

Last thing: please be more transparent in how suspects are done in the future. The regidrago suspect both ended a day early with no repercussions (human error is okay, but just saying /shrug is a bit...). It also included complementary tours that were not announced in the main suspect thread and that many people had no way of knowing about unless they were on when they were being held. I hope that there can be much clearer communication between the playerbase and TLs in the future.

edit: I've said it before, and I am still in favor of species clause removal. I think it raises the skill building ceiling and overall makes the tier more fun.

 

[BigChuchu]

It would be nice if your post had some examples in it instead of sweeping generalizations. Somehow in your post about pokemon you do not name a single other pokemon.

Yeah, I've been there before. I can list my own counters and the typical reaction will be "lmao these mons suck". So no thanks, I'll keep them for myself. (Hint: they're probably not in the VR!)

I'm a ladder player, so I base my opinion on my extensive ladder experience. Those Ogerpon sets in the compendium do not reflect what you encounter on the ladder, for example Play Rough and Superpower have less than 5% usage, also TIL Ogerpon can learn Zen Headbutt (slashed in the setcomp, but never ever seen one). So yeah, on paper Ogerpon-H can indeed tech everything. In practice, does it really use all its tools?

However! I can totally appreciate that tournament players have a totally different perspective on the matter. To these, Pecharunt and Regidrago are fine while Ogerpon ruins their gaming experience. To me, it's the opposite. C'est la vie. ✌

 

[Mishlef]

Yeah, I've been there before. I can list my own counters and the typical reaction will be "lmao these mons suck". So no thanks, I'll keep them for myself. (Hint: they're probably not in the VR!)

I'm a ladder player, so I base my opinion on my extensive ladder experience. Those Ogerpon sets in the compendium do not reflect what you encounter on the ladder, for example Play Rough and Superpower have less than 5% usage, also TIL Ogerpon can learn Zen Headbutt (slashed in the setcomp, but never ever seen one). So yeah, on paper Ogerpon-H can indeed tech everything. In practice, does it really use all its tools?

However! I can totally appreciate that tournament players have a totally different perspective on the matter. To these, Pecharunt and Regidrago are fine while Ogerpon ruins their gaming experience. To me, it's the opposite. C'est la vie. ✌

How can there ever be discussion if you say something without proof or backup to your claims, if you fail to provide proof then your posts are less than useless they instead become misleading to people who take you at your word. The burden of proof remains on you if you’re going to make a statement regarding the ability of certain mons to beat ogerpon. Additionally ladder experiences generally aren’t substantially relevant to the discussion about ogerpon especially since it’s subjective.

Edit: removed something which could be interpreted as elo shaming my b

 

[Felucia]

Yeah, I've been there before. I can list my own counters and the typical reaction will be "lmao these mons suck". So no thanks, I'll keep them for myself. (Hint: they're probably not in the VR!)

I would encourage you to post the mons anyway since it helps us have a constructive discussion, and with this the discussion reaches a very awkward dead end instead. I would hope that in turn people acknowledge your effort and put in their own effort to take your suggestions seriously and not blindly dismiss them subjectively.

Additionally ladder experiences generally aren’t substantially relevant to the discussion about ogerpon especially since it’s subjective.

I do want to quickly give my 2 cents on this: A ladder player's perspective isn't any more objective or subjective than a tour player's, nor is there anything wrong with subjectivity in these conversations (the conclusions we draw from our information are subjective after all). In the end, whether we use statistics to back up our claims (objective), or attempt to argue our interpretation of those statistics (subjective). As long as we're contributing meaningfully to the tiering process and move the discussion forward, it doesn't matter which facet of 1v1 you're from. We are all 1v1 players, and all input is appreciated provided it follows the posting guidelines.

 

[Murm]

Going to drop my thoughts on what's being discussed right now.

Honestly I'm pretty neutral on this guy, I think there's good points on both sides. Its natural typing fits the tier super well, handling fairies, steels, and waters all easily. It hits incredibly hard with its effective base 153 attack, and in this slower, bulkier metagame, 110 speed is amazing, allowing it to run more bulk which can be very hard to deal with. While it has a lot of amazing base matchups, I will say many of its matchups are very set dependant, but its not as bad as something like prehome Annihilape. Overall, I'm just for doing whatever the community wants, which seems to be either a suspect test right now, or a QB into retest after PL.

Very silly mon, while the hax aspect is annoying, I don't think that's the reason to ban it. I am personally on the side of banning Pecharunt, since it has a surprising amount of set versatility to beat most of the current checks. I would go into more, but I don't want to spoil anything for PL, so :c.

:species-clause: I'm very against removing Species Clause. I haven't heard any great arguments for it outside of the silliness aspect of it, which for a competitive tier isn't a great reason, and when picking against a team with multiple of the same mons, it often takes the skill out of picking. Obviously this doesn't come up very often, but in my opinion there isn't a good reason to make the tier 1% worse for the silly factor of species clause. HOWEVER, I would be for a Forms Clause, since most forms are very different mons. This actually allows a lot of creative building routes, while not really effecting picking. I will say it might be a little iffy when it comes to mons like Dudunsparce and Maushold (which I know aren't metagame staples or anything but I'm using them as examples) that have multiple forms that only effect the appearance, but at least for now, I don't believe this would effect much at all.

 

[BigChuchu]

I would encourage you to post the mons anyway since it helps us have a constructive discussion, and with this the discussion reaches a very awkward dead end instead. I would hope that in turn people acknowledge your effort and put in their own effort to take your suggestions seriously and not blindly dismiss them subjectively.

Alright. Some of my personal consistent Ogerpon-H counters are: Psychic Noise Wyrdeer, Rock Slide Kleavor, Dual Wingbeat bulky Scyther, Flame Charge Bulk Up Tauros-Fire, WP Agility Articuno. (Yes, they beat other stuff too.) I have other mons I have theorycrafted but haven't extensively tested yet (Hyper Drill Boomburst Dudunsparce? stay tuned)

Now, I KNOW those won't beat EVERY SINGLE variant of Ogerpon-H, and this is not what I'm after. I am not building to cover the moves with 6% usage (see screenshot below from June stats). But overall I have more freedom building vs Ogerpon-H than I have vs Regidrago (who you never know will be special or physical) or Pecharunt (who can haxx you to death).

Some calcs

@ Eviolite
252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Scyther: 254-300 (74 - 87.4%)
Enough health left for a Spiky Shield damage
76+ Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

@ Life Orb
252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kleavor: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%)
112+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kleavor Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 377-447 (103.5 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
NUKED

@ whatever, ideally Sitrus or Colbur
252+ SpA Wyrdeer Psychic Noise vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%)
252+ SpA Wyrdeer Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 238-282 (65.3 - 77.4%)
-1 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 240 Def Wyrdeer: 144-171 (41.4 - 49.2%)
(admittedly not the best counter if Knock Off becomes more prevalent)

@ Leftovers. Too much hassle to calc, but basically Flame Charge for speed control, Intimidate + Bulk Up + Leftovers, hit with Body Press. Without any super effective attack Ogerpon can't do much.

@ Weakness Policy + Agility
252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 112 HP / 144+ Def Articuno: 294-348 (84.2 - 99.7%)
+2 252 SpA Articuno Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 320-380 (106.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(the strat loses vs the 6.657% of Rock Tomb users, ok)

Shell Smash
252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Cloyster: 254-302 (83.8 - 99.6%)
+2 40+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (4 hits*) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 368-440 (101 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*assuming the first hit breaks sub

Dual wingbeat staraptor?? Thank god tier saved

Unironically a good idea, thanks for the suggestion.
252 Atk Reckless Choice Scarf Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 392-464 (107.6 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[LittEleven]

thoughts on hearthflame at the moment, it's inarguably one of the best Pokemon in the metagame for being able to pick which matchups it wants to win at a point, but i think it doesn't detract from the ability to play skilfully, even while it is very centralizing in nature. with multiple sets being tailored to beat it

part a) reliance on additional moves/sets for its major matchups:

Opposing Hearthflame: Leech / SD / Rock Tomb / Counter sets all have odds split between each other in a healthy enough way where the mirror requires setreading on preview and not blindly sacking or praying to win speed ties etc; all sequences are equal but some sequences are more equal than others, with some sets being to optimize their matchups for the mirror better than others atm, specifics of which can be worked out with access to a calc. As long as setreading remains viable for this Pokémon, you can work out what your matchup with opposing Hearthflames is on preview, and pick accordingly.

Gouging Fire: Charm can be somewhat reliable as a way to deal with Gouging (though running it comes at the cost of losing two moveslots in some otherwise favorable matchups, Cudgel + Power Whip is fair enough as STAB moves that are strong enough to cover base matchups, loss comes with some other). Rock Tomb + Encore / Taunt / Counter are all sequence specific problems that happen with sets, and don't have 100% lines for either Pokémon; Gouging is favored vs most common sets and can EV to avoid the outs of some of these sets too (e.g tomb/encore) if the team really requires it.

Wellspring: pretty symmetric matchup unfortunately, similar to the Hearthflame section minus the tomb sets gaining an advantage; Power Whip is neutral to Wellspring but rarely to the point of changing the matchup vs an equivalent Hearthflame set. Same points there apply

Regidrago: Pretty poor matchup for Hearthflame, teching it is doable but with bad odds and sacrifices a lot of EVs to do so; discourages band Drago for the most part but this matchup is in drago's favor (spdef leech isn't that bad at beating scarf e.g and Play Rough can beat some sets depending on if they are required to use Scale Shot to outspeed)

Pecharunt: Same story here, something that you can tech with Hearthflame with less optimal odds (ada sd + knock but you have to not proc malignant confusion etc), it's mostly reliable vs other sets with the caveat that leech can win sometimes

Hoopa-Unbound: Set dependent but the most popular Hoopa sets deal with Ogerpons that don't account for Hoopa specifically. Teching Hoopa is reliant on having a lot of bulk along with U-turn, for the most part, as between Scarf/Band Hoopa threatens KOs on most Ogerpon sets with Gunk Shot (Scarf beats sets without defensive investment, Band beats raw Counter eved for Scarf); so beating this consistently is a bit iffy, special sets are usually less of a problem for Hearthflame but are less run in this metagame at the moment.

Primarina / Iron Crown / Metagross: You can lose to these if you're too experimentative with speed / move choices but you can make Hearthflame more/less reliable into all 3 through picking right sets or moves (Spiky for Prim, speed for Crown / encore), Meta can beat standard Fast sets that sequence incorrectly)

other matchups:
Haxorus / Chomp: Oger can make these matchups a soft 50/50 by including Play Rough, which can help, but can't make it a primary answer to either of these mons, both of which have a place in the metagame outside simply beating Hearthflame; and win with a correct setread

Skeledirge: matches up into both Hearth/Wellspring well, in dirge's favor even with Knock Off, though it can get outsequenced on that set, there's no reliable way for Oger to gain a winning adv here

Lando-T: forces non choiced Lando into certain moves for reliability vs Counter (loses to wellspring most of the time)

Faster Pokemon: due to a stable speed tier w/ lack of held item and inability to use resist berries, Hflame can be beat by strong faster mons (chien pao, pult, gren, boulder etc) or by relevant strong scarfers (arcanine-h, with little in terms of counterplay that isn't prepared for in the builder, through bulking them. This in turn reduces some of its other relevant matchups

There's a bunch more conditional answers/sets that won't be listed that beat Hearthflame in a pinch as long as you're not building with the expectation that they are the end-all be-all answers to click if you think Hearthflame is being clicked, it's common sense that designing a mon to be anti-hearthflame but losing to some variants means you only bring them if you can beat the other hearthflame variants with the rest of your team.

Hearthflame in my opinion has a variety of viable sets that require additional moves and identities, that stop them from being splashed around or making them harder to distinguish. Historically strong mons from past metagames have had similar effects (ORAS Zard-X, SM Dragonite, SS Togekiss somewhat) where while there are "worse" Pokémon that can be brought that beat most-all variants of them, they aren't mandated to be run as long as you account for the Pokémon through your sets (since it has to give up moveslots/evs/items to be a winning set, and that's reflected in the teams brought, with teams allowing Hearthflame to be more flexible on preview performing better). Only having its STAB moves isn't usually enough to secure its top matchups, and with its mirror being an important matchup to keep in mind at any point when building with it, it promotes better building and less leaning into the rock paper scissors aspect of 1v1 that it normally can feel like.

b) Wellspring's effect:
Since Archaludon's ban (and before its ban, as a partner in crime), Hearthflame/Wellspring have had mostly interchangeable sets, with upsides in using both (better mu spread for hearthflame, less preparedness for the equivalent in wellspring), but with the given data (swiss poffs + lt + 2 weeks of PL) it's hard to say that people have been relying on Pokémon that both set variants with singular sets, and with a lack of observational proof, it's hard to prove this fact until the meta changes (which can very well happen in a suspect setting). The former two tours had more manageable usage of the pair, and while they're exclusive, they're both top mons that demand slightly different cores to be bringable, and are revealed on preview meaning with good building you will know fully what to expect when you load into one

c) Metagame
I personally don't think the meta is at an unhealthy point yet, week 1/2s SV usage is pretty representative of the idea that there are multiple top mons with Hflame being one of them, without having teams that are silly, and several Hflame games indicating its 4mss along with its reliance on EVs for matchups. It is a top tier Pokémon with the highest number of non-linear matchups, but that's not something I found unhealthy while building teams for this tier. I think its best cores are with dragons like Regidrago, but there's no partner that imo makes its pairing too overbearing or lets Hearthflame flexibly use multiple sets, and while teams made that way can avoid common 3-0s, there will always be Pokemon that take advantage of an established meta that revolves around that. I think trying to fix a metagame (through volatility) by banning a core component of it, especially when it's been an established meta for around 2.5 months and there are still new techs being discovered, isn't something I would prefer doing during concurrent major tournaments (LT, PL), but I am in favor of people expressing their opinions after a suspect on the same, as a compromise for the same.

thanks for your time, have a nice day

 

[413X]

how do I find regidrago spreads (sry im new here ;-;)

this website is rly cool!!!

 

[delemon]

Hii

gm
ban tera from sv 1v1

hiii

 

[bellchime]

Hi there, I don't make posts often here but there's been something that's been bothering me so...

So I played a bo7 series for 1v1PL yesterday. I don't really build too much or anything, but I was trying to prep with the teams in my builder that felt the best to use for me because I had a lot going on in the past week, so I looked at my builder...

So uh. That's a good bit of Gouging Prim. I got told that in my 1v1PL game, I bought Gouging Fire four times, and each time I brought it, I won, which honestly is a bit scary. I bought five Primarina too but they did not win me every game I brought them in... food for thought.

So anyways I did not look at the entirety of that image the first time...

So why am I posting this?


Gouging Fire is really strong. Like... extremely strong for this meta. It's really bulky and can use Booster Energy to boost its Attack without any drawback. It's a Fire + Dragon type, which gives it good offensive typing, and it has a pretty monstrous stat spread of 105/115/121/65/93/91, which makes it a little bit slower than some Dragon-types, but it gets Dragon Dance, Scale Shot, and Flame Charge if it wants to boost its Speed. Attack Booster is obviously the go-to set here because while 115 Attack is nice, it's not Hoopa Unbound or Haxorus levels of Attack, but access to Dragon Dance fixes that pretty easily. Attack Booster stops it from using any other item, but it gives it an effective attack stat of about 155-165 based on your investment.

Of course, Gouging Fire's Attack Booster sets are what we first think of when we see it on preview or something, but what really sets it apart is the sheer versatility of other sets that it can run. I made a set for Gouging Fire that beats Ursaluna by using a combination of Substitute and Reversal to OHKO it when Gouging Fire gets low on HP. Finally got to see it get revealed (shoutouts Kala chasmah) and it did finally do its job. This set does not even need Liechi Berry to do that, so it still maintains matchups against things Volcanion (if it's not Sitrus or Choice Scarf) and stuff. Still has Flare Blitz / Outrage. All that. Loses to Iron Crown which kinda sucks but it's like trading out that matchup for another one. The reason I'm bringing this up is that Ursaluna is a pretty nice counter against other sets. Similar thing with Primarina, which I saw a Special Defense Booster set (cool set btw Nuxl) beat yesterday, but Clear Amulet is also another probably more well known way of doing this. Haxorus is good at beating it until it pulls out a Speed Booster set. Anyways, a lot of conventional answers to Gouging Fire just end up struggling. Low Kick Iron Valiant can be pretty easily beat with some sets with the correct EV spread. Yeah. It just techs a lot without losing all too much (except for against Choice Band Haxorus ig bc Speed Booster is not great imo) and is just generally strong with its best sets.

It's just pretty hard to go wrong with Gouging Fire, and it pairs super well with probably the next-best mon right now, being Primarina. I think Pecharunt and Regidrago still should see some action as well, but I think Gouging Fire is the best place to start.

I do want to invite people to share thoughts on Gouging Fire because one user shouting into the void doesn't do anything to start getting the tiering ball rolling, especially after council has been dissolved, but I hope that we can start looking at taking tiering action for 1v1, as this feels like a metagame that is somewhat annoyingly overcentralized around a select few Pokemon.

 

[bern]

Hi there, I don't make posts often here but there's been something that's been bothering me so...

So I played a bo7 series for 1v1PL yesterday. I don't really build too much or anything, but I was trying to prep with the teams in my builder that felt the best to use for me because I had a lot going on in the past week, so I looked at my builder...

View attachment 660384

So uh. That's a good bit of Gouging Prim. I got told that in my 1v1PL game, I bought Gouging Fire four times, and each time I brought it, I won, which honestly is a bit scary. I bought five Primarina too but they did not win me every game I brought them in... food for thought.

View attachment 660387

So anyways I did not look at the entirety of that image the first time...

So why am I posting this?


Gouging Fire is really strong. Like... extremely strong for this meta. It's really bulky and can use Booster Energy to boost its Attack without any drawback. It's a Fire + Dragon type, which gives it good offensive typing, and it has a pretty monstrous stat spread of 105/115/121/65/93/91, which makes it a little bit slower than some Dragon-types, but it gets Dragon Dance, Scale Shot, and Flame Charge if it wants to boost its Speed. Attack Booster is obviously the go-to set here because while 115 Attack is nice, it's not Hoopa Unbound or Haxorus levels of Attack, but access to Dragon Dance fixes that pretty easily. Attack Booster stops it from using any other item, but it gives it an effective attack stat of about 155-165 based on your investment.

Of course, Gouging Fire's Attack Booster sets are what we first think of when we see it on preview or something, but what really sets it apart is the sheer versatility of other sets that it can run. I made a set for Gouging Fire that beats Ursaluna by using a combination of Substitute and Reversal to OHKO it when Gouging Fire gets low on HP. Finally got to see it get revealed (shoutouts Kala chasmah) and it did finally do its job. This set does not even need Liechi Berry to do that, so it still maintains matchups against things Volcanion (if it's not Sitrus or Choice Scarf) and stuff. Still has Flare Blitz / Outrage. All that. Loses to Iron Crown which kinda sucks but it's like trading out that matchup for another one. The reason I'm bringing this up is that Ursaluna is a pretty nice counter against other sets. Similar thing with Primarina, which I saw a Special Defense Booster set (cool set btw Nuxl) beat yesterday, but Clear Amulet is also another probably more well known way of doing this. Haxorus is good at beating it until it pulls out a Speed Booster set. Anyways, a lot of conventional answers to Gouging Fire just end up struggling. Low Kick Iron Valiant can be pretty easily beat with some sets with the correct EV spread. Yeah. It just techs a lot without losing all too much (except for against Choice Band Haxorus ig bc Speed Booster is not great imo) and is just generally strong with its best sets.

It's just pretty hard to go wrong with Gouging Fire, and it pairs super well with probably the next-best mon right now, being Primarina. I think Pecharunt and Regidrago still should see some action as well, but I think Gouging Fire is the best place to start.

I do want to invite people to share thoughts on Gouging Fire because one user shouting into the void doesn't do anything to start getting the tiering ball rolling, especially after council has been dissolved, but I hope that we can start looking at taking tiering action for 1v1, as this feels like a metagame that is somewhat annoyingly overcentralized around a select few Pokemon.

so like i was talking with clerica yesterday and i wanted to make a post of this kind cuz when i made a self scout i discovered this exact same train of thought.

yeah i used a lot of gouging prim this guy is kinda brokey.

when it comes to actual counters to gouging fire there's very little to talk about, haxorus? haban, try to hit 4 scale shots cuz if you outrage you get burnt by bulwark, ursaluna? fricking subversal if you wanna, primarina? spdef booster noble roar i saw eli use that against drip and it fricking won. the point is that the mon is pretty damn versatile and can flip its matchups way better than we thought at first, and it was thanks to PL that we began instigating on these options.

i'm in favor of a gouging fire suspect but like honestly who isn't atp, everyone wants to see what people think about this guy, it might be too versatile for its own good, it might not be, time will tell, but imo it's not an iron valiant case where "oh it can beat like every non-poison or fairy with the right set" no, this guy can tech it all and we've seen it in action, and sure you can run a dedicated counter but that's just one mon, when you wanna see you might just get 3-0d by the other, you wanna run like chople ursa? prim is right there ready to hydro cannon your bear. wanna run haban walking wake? primstare. this is also what makes it so good to pair it with prim. prim is just so damn good at covering its weaknesses to dragon, ground and rock, while gouging can deal with prim's grass-types on top of some electric- and poison-types like raging bolt and pecharunt if you run eq. very little actually counters goug-prim and the reason behind this is goug's versatility and prim's capabilities.

(global combos usages before the oger-h ban)

tl;dr suspect gouging it can tech a lot of mons.

 

[Felucia]

I do want to invite people to share thoughts on Gouging Fire because one user shouting into the void doesn't do anything to start getting the tiering ball rolling, especially after council has been dissolved, but I hope that we can start looking at taking tiering action for 1v1, as this feels like a metagame that is somewhat annoyingly overcentralized around a select few Pokemon.

Even without a council there can still be tiering action in 1v1, but we do need to hear everyone's voice now more than ever. UM leadership and I don't have the full extent of knowledge necessary to make informed decisions about SV tiering, so we'll be relying on the community to help guide us. With that said, if there's sufficient support for tiering action, UM leadership and I will work out a way to still make it happen.

I may post my own thoughts on later but they haven't changed a whole lot from last time I talked about it so I'm not sure if I have much to add

 

[Murm]

So I don't actually have too many new things to bring up with Gouging Fire, I will say that I think Clear Amulet is really nice for Prim over Spdef Booster to avoid Icy Wind Encore but other than that, yeah its pretty broken, I 100% support a suspect. I wanted to show my support for this but I also wanted to take this opportunity to talk about a few other problematic mons.

This dude is so versatile for having such few options. It can beat almost anything, and it just feels awful to play against. Offensive sets also need more exploration, for instance I made this set early on in PL which can turn a lot of its spookier matchups on their heads all at once. Something to keep an eye on as we go on.

WP Pecha

Pecharunt @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpA / 40 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Recover / Whatever you really only need the first three moves

Nasty Plot helps against Steels, you can also run Acid Spray (probably as the last move). Iirc you want the special attack, it tanks Specs PZ while optimizing HP, its a solid set to beat so many things that normally beat it.

I'm just going to link my previous post on this dude, that post covers most of my thoughts on this broken little dude. Its just so bulky while being able to be so strong due to its ability, I would love a retest at some later point.

This dude has been broken since Scream Tail got banned, no clue how its lasted for this long. I've been saying this whole time people just need to experiment more with it, and while I've mainly touched offensive sets, there have been so much success with Low Kick Encore Disable. Encore Disable sets just force so many 50/50s, and Valiant can adapt to fit any meta. Keep an eye on this dude, and keep experimenting and pushing this mon further.

I might do another post at a later point to say more, especially if people have questions I'm down to talk more about these dudes.

 

[fake tom numbers]

Pecharunt @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpA / 40 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Recover / Whatever you really only need the first three moves

Nasty Plot helps against Steels

fast taunt
wp, spatk booster, specs
plot t1 loses to scarf, sball t1 loses to wp
acid draco
pecha autowins anyways?
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 216 HP / 40 SpD Pecharunt: 210-248 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
sd
metal sound, specs, mirror coat
metal sound
+2 252+ SpA Pecharunt Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 294-346 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

What steels are you talking about? What does this set actually beat that other sets don't? I am very confused.

Gouging is fine, if you build around different mons that aren't gouging prim hoodra corv oger pecha ursa etc then you will make teams that can beat gouging very easily. The only reason people aren't building with different mons is because a certain regi forces you to run a very specific counter on all of your teams, thus making your team have to 50-50 every match versus meta teams unless you're cteaming. (Compare rtm's PL run vs Bo's PL run, if u dont cteam or u dont run boring cores u go negative)

 

[armaldlothearmaldo]

I'm utterly uniformed on the current meta, and I have no stake in this since I don't play 1v1. However, with all the changes happening in 1v1 tier, things might matter for the tier.

With that in mind, could someone explain to ignorant people like me what has fundamentally changed about Gouging Fire itself since the previous discussions about the pokemon concluded it was a healthy meta force? I haven't watched PL or LT or Swiss, so I don't actually know. Based on the discussion here, a few more techs have become apparent. However, I remember looking at Gouging Fire's ability to tech back in March and concluding it just wasn't helpful: each change in its moveset lost more matchups than it gained. For instance, I had a substitute-reversal set in my builder, but never used it. Reversal seemed like too narrow a tech because it didn't help against anything other than regular Ursaluna.

It may be that in the current meta, the ability to tech one or two matchups, even at the cost of several others is well worth it. However, I would question whether that means Gouging Fire is problematic or if that means the meta has problems, which are two very different things. It could be, of course, that new techs and a rise in defensive Gouging Fires do actually make it a problematic pokemon; however, as a now-outsider, that's not immediately apparent.

 

[Murm]

With that in mind, could someone explain to ignorant people like me what has fundamentally changed about Gouging Fire itself since the previous discussions about the pokemon concluded it was a healthy meta force?

Hearthflame has been banned for a little bit now, and with it gone, Gouging Fire no longer is constricted to running very specific sets for it. Wellspring is still around, and can do things with Charm, but Gouging Fire has ways around it (Amulet, Substitute 50/50s, etc.). Basically now Gouging Fire has much more freedom to run all kinds of different sets. The last move on Attack Booster sets can be so many different things, Clear Amulet Noble Roar sets can beat a lot of normal checks like Primarina, and there's still so much exploration to be done with other items. Also, Gouging Fire just conceptually is an extremely strong mon, with amazing bulk, great typing which allows it to hit most of the meta hard with just its STABs, and while its Speed and Attack are a tiny bit low compared to other top tiers, Dragon Dance and its bulk makes up for it, along with the option of Attack Booster.

 

[deddd]

Goug is rly strong but I dont think its the most problematic mon in the tier and banning it seems like it wouldnt really help(a certain ogerpon fellow would prob be banworthy after that) + opportunity cost for not running atk booster is like horrendous
atk booster gives you:
raging bolt(and other bulky dragons)
cress(slight 50/50 but if u run fast u just kinda defeat reflect)
random spatkers like volcanion, sylv(is terrible but a somewhat rel mu anyways)
urshifu odds(if u run bswipe)
some iron val
etc.
but dont worry! you can drop all of these mus and more to um defeat primarina!!
Honestly the other gouging sets r like really really situational and the bigger problem is just like evs + 4th moveslot but like this shit literally a modern day mega + evs wise generally u want bulky goug which means stuff like pz or hax beat u p consistently

That aside I think the more problematic mon in the tier is regidrago
It
1. Offers genuinely nothing in the tier(doesnt keep anyone in check really at all)
2. Forces you to run fairies(they are like all garbage besides prim and iron val) or steels(viables r like corvi icrown sometimes metagross)
3. a lot of stronger players dont even like bringing it despite it being a S- mon b/c it turns previews into coinflips + its sets dont even do that much

Now you might say oh dragos fine in ss(debatably altho i dont play ss so cant say much here) though but the difference is ss has real fairies(all tapus r viable, prim, sylv, aroma, garde, etc) while sv has ival and prim(diancie is oki but generally every other fairy sucks giga ass and is rarely something youd want to run)
Banning drago would free up slots to check gouging more freely so ppl dont just run prim as their check -> its now much easier to afford a slot to smth like landot, manaphy ,tusk, orb ursa, balloon pecha, etc to solidly beat gouging b/c the fairies n steels that r forced onto teams bc of drago make it so gouging just kinda 2-1s most teams by default

 

[Felucia]

Gouging Fire is now banned from 1v1

We'll be allowing the metagame to stabilise for a few weeks before looking into potential further tiering action if the need is (still) there. During this time, any discussion about the state of the metagame and helping us figure out how to navigate a post-gouging world is greatly encouraged and appreciated.

Gouging Fire will remain legal in the ongoing 1v1 Masters tournament for the duration of this week.

 

[Opchurtle100]

yay

 

[delemon]

yippee

 

[excitedly ava]

havent touched this format in a sec but scrolling through recent posts i see that prim is a prominent mon, less so following the gouging ban but still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless. knowing this i present to you the stupidest set ever:

Spoiler

lol (Iron Moth) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute

air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p

edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar

 

[joan of arc]

havent touched this format in a sec but scrolling through recent posts i see that prim is a prominent mon, less so following the gouging ban but still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless. knowing this i present to you the stupidest set ever:

Spoiler

lol (Iron Moth) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute

air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p

edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar

first of all hi this is my new account. second of all u should invest in spe over spd. the evs kinda suck tbh but yeah

 

[LemonLime78]

havent touched this format in a sec but scrolling through recent posts i see that prim is a prominent mon, less so following the gouging ban but still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless. knowing this i present to you the stupidest set ever:

Spoiler

lol (Iron Moth) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute

air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p

edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar

Welp, other one got taken down, so I'll take a second stab at this with actual criticism.

First, I don't see this beating iron hands. Even one with barely any investment is doing 60-70% minimum with supercell slam (t1 fake out into either supercell or eq), which gives no chance to morning sun with eq spam.

Second, I don't see this beating stuff that air balloon offensive moth and/or air balloon salazzle wouldn't. Moth with protect already beats prim very comfortably by sludge waving into prot, salazzle can pull the exact same strat but faster and against steels/poisons.

Also, literally no reason whatsoever for spA investment. Just put it in def or speed.