Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Bold School]

So I was playing around lowish ladder with some garbage experimental non-team (seriously, don't run this) to test some things. Somehow, I accidently did the impossible. I made somebody rage quit in OU from Iron Boulder. Iron Mid As Heck Boulder.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2201094707-zfzvg06x6ojlmqp2rqiej32epuo6yklpw

For the record, nothing in that game or my team construction should be taken seriously. I just thought it was funny.

But on a more serious note, I also wanted to get the conversation started. Is there a place for Iron Fraud in OU?

My feelings have consistently been heck no. So I thought I'd try Choice Band on it for some immediate "power" that is still kinda lacking, but at least doesn't require a set up move first. My experience has been so far that it isn't good. And Adamant is trash because your speed tier is still not enough to outrun Ogerpon. But it at least feels slightly better than BE speed and SD. Maybe if one had it on an actually properly constructed team, it could function as a bit of a wallbreaker with Mighty Cleave + coverage? Or something?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I’ll be away for the weekend at a VGC regional, but there’s a chance for a suspect early next week. There’s also a chance we have a survey instead. Still being discussed.

I hope the Kyurem suspect song is ice ice baby or into the unknown

Both feel appropriate for the embodiment of the bittercold itself

 

[Avira]

No real comment otherwise on the usual "let's discuss unbanning an Uber for some reason" song and dance that seems to always happen this gen after a suspect, failed or not, other that in the unlikely event that Palafin-Hero was somehow balanced now-press X to doubt--it would still be pretty goddamn ugly. And isn't beauty the real factor people should be looking at given Gouging Fire's ugly self was finally banned after two suspects and given that Kyurem's ugly self is probably and predictably on the chopping block again? /s

I know this is sarcasm, but Gouging Fire absolutely isn't ugly. It's my favourite Fire-type Pokemon ever with a fantastic design. And most people who purchased the actual games (I am not one of those people) want to trade their Gouging fire for another Gouging Fire, showcasing how incredibly popular it is among the Pokemon fandom. Gouging Fire is peak in aesthetic design as well as competitive prowess.

To be on topic, Palafin-Hero is underexplored due to being in the meta for I believe under a week, and Taunt + Bulk Up and Choice Band aren't all it can do, and I believe it'd still be unhealthy and quite possibly broken if it were to be dropped back into OU.

 

[Cyber-DJ]

Large yap session ahead, with a TL;DR at the bottom

If I have the time for reqs, i'll gladly vote Ban. Between it's set variety and freeze fishing nonsense, I see little reason to keep it in OU. It's so much harder to build in OU while Kyurem is around.

Dice DD, Mixed DD, Boots Attacker, Specs, SubProtect, and whatever frankenstein combinations inbetween, it's such a hassle to deal with this monster. I've both won and lost games I shouldn't just because either my opponent or myself simply couldn't guess which set Kyurem has in time, and even if you can, that's sometimes not even enough! Genuinely despise the presence Kyurem has had in the tier and have for months. I get the feeling some will say that Kyurem isn't the problem, that Tera or Tera Blast is what pushes it over the edge, and while I can see the train of logic (i'm on the fence as to wether Kyurem is too much even in Teraless, but that's theorycrafting at that point), there's likely not gonna be a Tera Blast suspect, and even if there was, i'm betting my freedom of speech that TB won't recieve enough support from the community to get banned, so we're stuck with the next best option, which is banning Kyurem.

I'm all for letting the meta settle, but I feel like for once, not much will change, at least this time. Without Gouging Fire, Grasses get a bit better, but that's not rocking the boat or anything of the sort. And please, for the love of OU, STOP SAYING WE SHOULDN'T BAN POKEMON ONLY BECAUSE THEY'LL BE BAD IN UBERS! And please, don't say that Kyurem isn't broken because it's fine without Tera, because that argument can be tossed to everything that was OU legal at one point. I doubt anyone in this thread will bring that up seriously, but I needed to get that off my chest before someone mentions it, since i've got a gut feeling that'll be something some people have to dispute.

TL;DR: Kyurem has way too much set variety to be answered consistently, and restricts teambuilding and certain team archetypes in a negative way with little positives to show for it, hence i'll vote ban if I get the chance.

 

[Cyber-DJ]

I encourage everyone to give this video a watch:

Only solidified my stance on Kyurem tbh

 

[EpicGuy321]

Palafin may very well be balanced. It has to switch once in a hazard meta (though not at bad as DLC 1), or if it runs boots it has no lefties. It's walled by Sinistcha, and it probably doesn't beat Zama unless tera Ghost. It couldn't really utilize Tera Blast like Gouging Fire did (best one is probably Fairy). Honestly doesn't seem too hard to deal with. The thing I'd worry about is maybe it could be too hard on offensive structures and could shift the meta a bit towards the defensive side. I think people might be too focused on its stats. I'm going to be honest here, I started typing out why Palafin would be broken, got 10 words in and changed my mind.

VS

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

I know this is sarcasm, but Gouging Fire absolutely isn't ugly. It's my favourite Fire-type Pokemon ever with a fantastic design. And most people who purchased the actual games (I am not one of those people) want to trade their Gouging fire for another Gouging Fire, showcasing how incredibly popular it is among the Pokemon fandom. Gouging Fire is peak in aesthetic design as well as competitive prowess.

To be on topic, Palafin-Hero is underexplored due to being in the meta for I believe under a week, and Taunt + Bulk Up and Choice Band aren't all it can do, and I believe it'd still be unhealthy and quite possibly broken if it were to be dropped back into OU.

With you mentioning how palafin is underexplored I decided to try make this weird mixed set.

Palafin-Hero @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Normal / Water / Fairy / Dragon / Fire
EVs: 12 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Flip Turn / Wave crash / Grass Knot
- Boomburst
- Throat Chop /Close Combat
- Jet Punch

Choice scarf flip turn can give good turn momentum but can be replaced with wave crash for great damage or grass knot for the bozo. Tera normal Boomburst is funni. Throat Chop for ghosts but close combat can be used for more breaking power. Jet Punch is Jet Punch. Tera normal for once again boomburst, Tera water is for stab, Fairy for a chance against dragons or smth, and Dragon and Fire Tera to annoy grass types.

 

[Cyber-DJ]

Palafin may very well be balanced. It has to switch once in a hazard meta (though not at bad as DLC 1), or if it runs boots it has no lefties. It's walled by Sinistcha, and it probably doesn't beat Zama unless tera Ghost. It couldn't really utilize Tera Blast like Gouging Fire did (best one is probably Fairy). Honestly doesn't seem too hard to deal with. The thing I'd worry about is maybe it could be too hard on offensive structures and could shift the meta a bit towards the defensive side. I think people might be too focused on its stats. I'm going to be honest here, I started typing out why Palafin would be broken, got 10 words in and changed my mind.

VS

My gripe with Palafin is it's potential set variety and utility moves. 50 Shades of Bulk Up and Choice Band are the big ones, but let's be honest, Palafin's gonna have the stats to do a lot more than that. Throw in Grass Knot to screw Dondozo. You've earned it. Want to mess with Raging Bolt? How about Encore. Zamazenta and Toxapex pose trouble? Tera Psychic Zen Headbutt. Never forget that you can use Flip Turn. Never forget that Tera Blast is also a thing for the few mons who can consistently answer it.

I'm not against testing Palafin, but I have my doubts that it'll be fine in the tier. Not much harm in dropping it. We just ban it again if it's a problem, but still. Would rather have Palafin be given a first impressions run in some tour games first, then use that as a jumping off point of sorts for the community at large.

My headcanon is that Palafin's gonna end up being too much for OU with a mix of Tera and either utility or mixed attacks, but hey... it's just a theory...

 

[Moyashi]

The thing I'd worry about is maybe it could be too hard on offensive structures and could shift the meta a bit towards the defensive side.

Offense has more tools vs this than defense does. Besides that, we're IN an offensive meta. If the meta shifts towards defensive, in what universe is this a bad thing? Palafin's BU set was a defensive team's nightmare. I don't know why people are STILL coming back to this topic, and the general topic of unbans from Ubers when we still have problems to look into first.

The idea of testing Fin again isn't the worst, but the timing isn't right.

 

[Moisture99]

I don't think anyone is saying we should be suspect testing Palafin right now, but that it's something worth looking into eventually, probably after Kyurem and hopefully Tera Blast.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I’ll be away for the weekend at a VGC regional, but there’s a chance for a suspect early next week. There’s also a chance we have a survey instead. Still being discussed.

If nintendo kidnaps you for being OUTL who will take your place?

 

[Rekka's Backend]

My feelings have consistently been heck no. So I thought I'd try Choice Band on it for some immediate "power" that is still kinda lacking, but at least doesn't require a set up move first. My experience has been so far that it isn't good. And Adamant is trash because your speed tier is still not enough to outrun Ogerpon. But it at least feels slightly better than BE speed and SD. Maybe if one had it on an actually properly constructed team, it could function as a bit of a wallbreaker with Mighty Cleave + coverage? Or something?

Hear me out, here's a set I used in passing for a time that felt strangely 'good' to use:

Iron Boulder @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying / Water / Steel / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mighty Cleave
- Earthquake
- Sacred Sword
- X-Scissor / Iron Head / Psychic Headbutt / Tera Blast

I used this for a time when I was very tired of select flying threats like Moltres/Zapdos. Just absolutely shits all over them while fulfilling the role of a tanky SPD wall that still hits pretty hard. I found it very 'funny' into Gilscor at the time, as if they protect you mighty cleave, and if you want to be a psycho you can Tera Ice or Water and TB them into the unfunny zone. It's coverage is actually pretty solid, and I found it also shit on Iron Moth assuming it hadn't gotten a sub up yet. Or Garg with ID.

It was fun, not the most consistent thing in the world but its sheer SPD let it do funny things while still hitting hard. Booster Energy sets while good feel like a one trick pony a lot of the time.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If nintendo kidnaps you for being OUTL who will take your place?

while finch is gone i'm in charge

 

[viivian]

If nintendo kidnaps you for being OUTL who will take your place?

When Finchinator joins the battle, Grimmsnarl is in charge of OU. Grimmsnarl: "Leave it to me!"

 

[ausma]

If nintendo kidnaps you for being OUTL who will take your place?

me; hostile takeover

 

[Avira]

Palafin may very well be balanced. It has to switch once in a hazard meta (though not at bad as DLC 1), or if it runs boots it has no lefties. It's walled by Sinistcha, and it probably doesn't beat Zama unless tera Ghost. It couldn't really utilize Tera Blast like Gouging Fire did (best one is probably Fairy). Honestly doesn't seem too hard to deal with. The thing I'd worry about is maybe it could be too hard on offensive structures and could shift the meta a bit towards the defensive side. I think people might be too focused on its stats. I'm going to be honest here, I started typing out why Palafin would be broken, got 10 words in and changed my mind.

VS

As I demonstrated with my calc last night, Palafin is not walled by Sinistcha at all:

252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 158-188 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Here's the set:

Palafin-Hero @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water/Dragon/Grass/Fairy/Electric/Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat/Tera Blast Fairy, Electric, or Grass
- Ice Punch
- Jet Punch
- Wave Crash

Basically, only physically defensive water-resists and Zamazenta switches into this if you don't pop Tera on Palafin, and if you just use Choice Band Tera Water Wave Crash in rain, none of them beat it. Meowscarada is picked off at 78% in rain by Jet Punch.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 285-336 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Grass/Electric Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-302 (47.5 - 56.5%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 228-270 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 330-390 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 370-436 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada in Rain: 230-271 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 225-265 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 250-296 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 168-200 (43.2 - 51.5%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Electric Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 164-194 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Close Combat vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 165-195 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Rain: 186-219 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sure, the Punching Glove set requires prediction to use, but it is effective into a lot of OU. And if you don't want to predict, just use Palafin in rain and get a free KO every time it comes in if your opponent doesn't have a Water-immune Pokemon. Palafin will be unbelievably stupid in OU as long as Tera is legal. It was THE premier Tera abuser back when it was in the tier, and it probably will be again if it is dropped back into OU.

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

As I demonstrated with my calc last night, Palafin is not walled by Sinistcha at all:

252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 158-188 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Here's the set:

Palafin-Hero @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water/Dragon/Grass/Fairy/Electric/Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat/Tera Blast Fairy, Electric, or Grass
- Ice Punch
- Jet Punch
- Wave Crash

Basically, only physically defensive water-resists and Zamazenta switches into this if you don't pop Tera on Palafin, and if you just use Choice Band Tera Water Wave Crash in rain, none of them beat it. Meowscarada is picked off at 78% in rain by Jet Punch.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 285-336 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Grass/Electric Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-302 (47.5 - 56.5%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 228-270 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 330-390 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 370-436 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada in Rain: 230-271 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 225-265 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 250-296 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 168-200 (43.2 - 51.5%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Electric Palafin-Hero Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 164-194 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Close Combat vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 165-195 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Rain: 186-219 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sure, the Punching Glove set requires prediction to use, but it is effective into a lot of OU. And if you don't want to predict, just use Palafin in rain and get a free KO every time it comes in if your opponent doesn't have a Water-immune Pokemon. Palafin will be unbelievably stupid in OU as long as Tera is legal. It was THE premier Tera abuser back when it was in the tier, and it probably will be again if it is dropped back into OU.

I second on what Avira said. And it'll cause more rain shenanigains and maybe cause a weather wars 3? Where torkoal has to be used so palafins breaking power is hindered, but only temporary I must say. As palafin can easily ko tork/bring back pelipper in for rain again.

 

[Joycap]

while finch is gone i'm in charge

me; hostile takeover

Y'alls mods are not beating the forum dictatorism allegations, are you? (if anything, I vote njnp to be Finch's replacement for the proceedings).

OK but as to not make this a one-liner, I'd like to spend a bit of time discussing what makes a *good* defensive Tera typing. In an earlier post discussing Tera Blast, I mentioned that I believe defensive tera types to be healthy for the meta, but offensive ones because of TB are bloated to the same extent as quote "bannable moves" where there is too much of a discrepancy between abusers that are banable/broken because of it, and those that simply don't care. Below that post, Finch replied to my 'POV' comment with the statistical summary of the subject of my above inquiry into defensive Tera's, and my recent fundamental punching bag: Garganacl - to whom I will use as the basis for this example (...even though my umbrage is with Salt Cure, but people seemed to gloss over that point).

Now, something I noticed about these statistics is that Tera Fairy and Tera Water far eclipse Tera Ghost in their usage, and this puzzled me at first, as Tera Ghost removes Garg's fighting weakness in the same vein that Tera Fairy does, and gives you an Emergency stop to the likes of Dragonite and Zamazenta (two things I've made use of myself), turning the new Ghost weakness into a neutrality all the while (I get you don't want to be taking 65+% from Ghold' Shadow Ball, I'll get back to this in a sec). Looking at the analysis, Gholdengo is cited as a justification for Tera Water, whereas the influx of Dragons in the tier means that Tera Fairy... is allowed to be Tera Fairy. And I do get that, if it weren't for overlapping weaknesses (more on that a bit later), Tera Fairy is debatably the most slappable defensive Tera Type on anything that doesn't mind the precaution, because sods law: something else on your team will be Tera-ing for offensive purposes (Kingambit, R.Bolt, Kyurem for as long as it survives in this tier... your example will vary). But that's where you might be looking at my 'overlapping weakness' comment and thinking 'well, Garg didn't have any business with Grass and Steel types anyway' or 'Steel isn't really an offensive typing' (erstwhile citing Gholdengo as a source for the latter, and forgetting that Salt Cure is the move that single-handedly flips a matchup that thing had no business beating, Tera be damned). As for what business this thing had - I do get that Tera's in this instance are built for more specialised interactions. But one of the things I've noticed about recent suspects (to wit, Tera was the first one) is that the game of 'chicken' you end up being forced to play with your Tera type seemingly fails to be a DNB argument a lot of the time, which implies to me that either something else on your team Tera'd, or that you over-specialised for those specific MUs.

Either that, or I've just spent the last 1/2 hr overexplaining 'whatever your team needs', idk.

 

[Ruft]

Y'alls mods are not beating the forum dictatorism allegations, are you? (if anything, I vote njnp to be Finch's replacement for the proceedings).

OK but as to not make this a one-liner, I'd like to spend a bit of time discussing what makes a *good* defensive Tera typing. In an earlier post discussing Tera Blast, I mentioned that I believe defensive tera types to be healthy for the meta, but offensive ones because of TB are bloated to the same extent as quote "bannable moves" where there is too much of a discrepancy between abusers that are banable/broken because of it, and those that simply don't care. Below that post, Finch replied to my 'POV' comment with the statistical summary of the subject of my above inquiry into defensive Tera's, and my recent fundamental punching bag: Garganacl - to whom I will use as the basis for this example (...even though my umbrage is with Salt Cure, but people seemed to gloss over that point).

Now, something I noticed about these statistics is that Tera Fairy and Tera Water far eclipse Tera Ghost in their usage, and this puzzled me at first, as Tera Ghost removes Garg's fighting weakness in the same vein that Tera Fairy does, and gives you an Emergency stop to the likes of Dragonite and Zamazenta (two things I've made use of myself), turning the new Ghost weakness into a neutrality all the while (I get you don't want to be taking 65+% from Ghold' Shadow Ball, I'll get back to this in a sec). Looking at the analysis, Gholdengo is cited as a justification for Tera Water, whereas the influx of Dragons in the tier means that Tera Fairy... is allowed to be Tera Fairy. And I do get that, if it weren't for overlapping weaknesses (more on that a bit later), Tera Fairy is debatably the most slappable defensive Tera Type on anything that doesn't mind the precaution, because sods law: something else on your team will be Tera-ing for offensive purposes (Kingambit, R.Bolt, Kyurem for as long as it survives in this tier... your example will vary). But that's where you might be looking at my 'overlapping weakness' comment and thinking 'well, Garg didn't have any business with Grass and Steel types anyway' or 'Steel isn't really an offensive typing' (erstwhile citing Gholdengo as a source for the latter, and forgetting that Salt Cure is the move that single-handedly flips a matchup that thing had no business beating, Tera be damned). As for what business this thing had - I do get that Tera's in this instance are built for more specialised interactions. But one of the things I've noticed about recent suspects (to wit, Tera was the first one) is that the game of 'chicken' you end up being forced to play with your Tera type seemingly fails to be a DNB argument a lot of the time, which implies to me that either something else on your team Tera'd, or that you over-specialised for those specific MUs.

Either that, or I've just spent the last 1/2 hr overexplaining 'whatever your team needs', idk.

I'd argue there is a multitude of reasons Tera Ghost is less common than Water and Fairy on Garganacl:

• Giving up Garg's Ghost resistance is a big deal, as it tends to be the dedicated Ghost resist on most teams it finds itself on.
• Dark weakness is major con, with how common (and threatening) offensive Dark-types are (Kingambit, Roaring Moon, Darkrai, Samurott, Weavile, etc.).
• Curse (the Garg variant that is the most likely to Tera) is antisynergistic with Tera Ghost. There may be some niche scenarios where you would like to use Ghost Curse, but in the vast majority of cases losing your setup move is worse, especially with how common phazing is.
• All the pros associated with Water/Fairy (less common weaknesses)

I will say that Tera Ghost can be very good on the right team, as blocking Rapid Spin and Body Press is a big deal, which is why it's the most common Tera Type after Water and Fairy after all.

 

[viivian]

Y'alls mods are not beating the forum dictatorism allegations, are you? (if anything, I vote njnp to be Finch's replacement for the proceedings).

i hate to break it to you buddy but no one cares about your proceedings and "democracy". we want a leader who bans people just for sharing an opinion they disagree with. that's the type of leadership that this community so desperately needs. "b-but i just think lugia wouldn't be so bad in OU!" you will never see your family again.

 

[Joycap]

I hate to break it to you buddy but no one cares about your proceedings and "democracy". we want a leader who bans people just for sharing an opinion they disagree with. that's the type of leadership that this community so desperately needs. "b-but i just think lugia wouldn't be so bad in OU!" you will never see your family again.

This is why 'Representatives' don't represent you (this post was made by The Daily Beagle)

Also I don't recall Lugia being my example, but hey, post TB ban, I might return to the lab :P
It's almost Christmas again, after all (*hint, hint*).

On another note...

I'd argue there is a multitude of reasons Tera Ghost is less common than Water and Fairy on Garganacl:

• Giving up Garg's Ghost resistance is a big deal, as it tends to be the dedicated Ghost resist on most teams it finds itself on.
• Dark weakness is major con, with how common (and threatening) offensive Dark-types are (Kingambit, Roaring Moon, Darkrai, Samurott, Weavile, etc.).
• Curse (the Garg variant that is the most likely to Tera) is antisynergistic with Tera Ghost. There may be some niche scenarios where you would like to use Ghost Curse, but in the vast majority of cases losing your setup move is worse, especially with how common phazing is.
• All the pros associated with Water/Fairy (less common weaknesses)

I will say that Tera Ghost can be very good on the right team, as blocking Rapid Spin and Body Press is a big deal, which is why it's the most common Tera Type after Water and Fairy after all.

Mostly agree with this reply, but I just want to say that what Garg beats and what Salt Cure beats are almost two different things. Kingambit is kinda a weird example to bring up despite it's ubiquity for this reason, as Salt Cure sort of exorcises a 'better Tera' from it lest it be weakened, and max Def / Helmet means you can take an SO hit in a pinch (very rarely is Garg ever weakened, even given the PP nerfs (and no, I don't run the Curse set personally, but I won't take it away from people who do. I've even seen Tera Flying on ladder from it before)).

 

[658Greninja]

Palafin is an interesting case because imo it wouldn’t be broken in this meta.

When Palafin was legal, we had way less Water resists. Options were limited to stuff like Dozo and Amoonguss since stuff like Toxapex were nerfed heavily, so it ended up being banned.

Offensive Checks


Defensive Checks
(tera water)

Wogre is by far the biggest check to Palafin, being immune to Jet Punch and Encoring it. Raging Bolt, Rillaboom, and Primarina aren’t longterm checks but they can usually 1v1 it. Pult can take a hit and/or wisp it back. Grasspon who’s very common on bulkier teams, can Encore Palafin and doesn’t mind Jet Punch.

On the defensive department. Mola uses Tickle/Chilling Water more over Scald due to being more effective into Moon and Dnite, this also means it’s the best defensive check to BU Taunt Palafin. Garganacl will often Tera and commonly its Tera Water which eats whatever Palafin throws at it. Sinistcha avoids a 3HKO from unboosted Ice Punch and retaliates with Strength Sap or Matcha.


Benefits to Retesting Palafin

Strong priority is a valuable asset for teams, but our options aren’t perfect. Gambit and Bolt could be Encore’d, Tera Ghost is more common which makes E-Speed Nite less consistent vs offense, Rilla’s Glide has several resistances on offense these days, and Scizor/Lokix are difficult to fit. Palafin has strong 60 BP priority coming off its monstrous 160 Atk. Palafin isn’t far off from Waterpon who has perfect coverage, a better speed tier, and close-to-the same power level thanks to the mask. Since the tier has adapted to it, they would have no problem with Palafin in virtue of them sharing the same checks.

However

I don’t think it’s the right time to retest Palafin. First we need to deal with the things oppressing the tier, such as…


The Sub-Tect set alone is enough to warrant a suspect. Counterplay with Glowking, Tinkaton, Crown, and fast rkillers gets thwarted with this set being able to Tera Ground or Pressure stall to win the matchup. I got reqs with help from a Kyurem semi-stall, and it’s comically easy to PP stall stuff like Glowking or Iron Crown. Freeze Dry and Earth Power is perfect coverage vs anything that isn’t a shitmon like Bronzong. Thanks to Pressure it can also stall out half of Encore’s PP so even with Encore Oger or Valiant you won’t beat it long term. Not to mention Kyurem is able to fish for freezes cuz of Freeze Dry’s 32 PP. The reason for so much HO is because Sub-Tect Kyurem stomps on every other team that isn’t packing Tera Steel Latios, SpD Corv, Blissey, or some shit like AV Mola. The set variety it has makes the now-banned Gouging Fire blush. Specs, Mixed, physical DD, mixed DD, Sub-DD, etc. These sets have different checks which teams simply have to accept they’ll lose to one of them, but Sub-Tect is what pushes it over the edge.

 

[Deleted User [52440]]

I probably have more "quit talking about freeing ubers" posts than I do sweeps with Kingambit this gen. Here's another:

Quit talking about freeing ubers.

Because this thread gets derailed repeatedly by it? Have you read the last 497 pages? And even if it’s “discouraged”, we have still been incredibly lenient and allowed it to happen to the point that theorymon of Ubers has taken up a substantial chunk of the thread.

So like, are we allowed to talk about freeing ubers or do we have to guess which ones are ok to talk about? Do we just wait until the mods discuss the topic? Where is this energy for Palafin in the last 2 pages? Heaven forbid someone brings up Lugia again lol.

Anyways, suspect away until the meta is more enjoyable and more stable, then feel free to suspect uber mons. No one can fully predict the consequences of bringing down a high power level mon (See Darkrai) and we might have to just end up banning it again which would waste everyone's time instead of suspecting things the community immediately has issues with (Kyurem as an example).

 

[BolTingBlazie]

“b-but i just think lugia wouldn't be so bad in OU!" you will never see your family again.

Yeah dropping Lugia in the gen where it can get out of its bad defensive type is a dumb idea for very obvious reasons. I was in favor of a test a while ago until I realized how dumb it would be if it could just get out of the one thing that would hold it back. I’d be down if there is no tera next gen though.

But yeah the palafin discussion was fun at first but we clearly should deal with Kyurem first before we pivot back to Palafin who yeah, is definitely the only uber that could feasibly be tested but is still questionable whether or not it would be fine. Darkrai and Zamazenta are only just weak enough to be OU, so I think before we have a potential headache on our hands we should get our current grievance in Kyurem out as others have said.

 

[MC Squared]

On the defensive department. Mola uses Tickle/Chilling Water more over Scald due to being more effective into Moon and Dnite, this also means it’s the best defensive check to BU Taunt Palafin.

It's awesome to see Chilling Water being a viable move now to use considering it's always been shat on as the worse version of Scald when it was always meant to be an alternative with extreme distribution