Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Just look at how many people gave veti's post a like: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...on-v4-gouging-fire-is-banned.3732644/page-535

It is more well-liked than nearly every pro-ban Kyurem post in recent times, and Storm Zone notably gave veti's post a love, meaning he would almost surely vote DNB if not enough time is given for players to adapt/innovate.

yeah and ctc's anti-ban post was one of the most liked posts in the second gouging suspect thread but look how the vote turned out. forum likes are not the metric we should be using to determine suspect tests. also, sz has been very loudly anti-ban since the first kyurem suspect and his posts on it may have even been the deciding factor for the suspect's failure, so i don't think there's gonna be an "if" attached to his vote

 

[Heatranator]

Just look at how many people gave veti's post a like: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...on-v4-gouging-fire-is-banned.3732644/page-535

It is more well-liked than any pro-ban Kyurem post in recent times, and Storm Zone notably gave veti's post a love, meaning he would almost surely vote DNB if not enough time is given for players to adapt/innovate.

3 love reacts and 11 like reacts.... Yeah, I'm sorry but that's not enough grounds to say that we should delay a kyurem suspect by 3 weeks. And mind you, this is ignoring basically every other post in this discussion thread being Pro Ban Kyurem, which honestly shows more that we should go forward with a kyurem suspect as soon as possible (though forums are of course, not the best metric to determine what people think should be banned, surveys are ofc).
Also SZ is one top player, are we discounting like, every other top player who has said they find Kyurem broken. Like, 3.8 on the OLT score is pretty high, which was just below Gouging.

 

[Venuesaur]

Just look at how many people gave veti's post a like: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...on-v4-gouging-fire-is-banned.3732644/page-535

It is more well-liked than nearly every pro-ban Kyurem post in recent times, and Storm Zone notably gave veti's post a love, meaning he would almost surely vote DNB if not enough time is given for players to adapt/innovate.

Literally people just like shit that a prominent player posts bro. Also... you're right, there are people who are dnb for kyurem. That's your entire argument and the problem is that there will ALWAYS BE people who are dnb for something. You're ignoring that suspects actually allow people to argue with others and that often people change their minds by the end of these suspects.

You have not explicitly stated your stance on Kyurem (although I'm assuming its for a ban), and I understand that on some level you may be afraid of being wrong. However, you need to actually take a stance at some point, and you can't always push things off because it might not go the way you hope it will. Again, you have spent more time in this thread getting scared that people will be dnb about Kyurem then actually explaining why they should ban it, and this is kind of sad. If you honestly believe something, you should argue for it, not try to masquerade your fear about something via trying to seem tactical or strategic. Not only does it not work, it is not the point of a suspect. Something should get suspected when it's controversial and it received 3.8 on the last survey and has been complained about nonstop since was suspected the first time. I absolutely assure you it's significantly controversial, certainly enough for a suspect, considering its score on survey's has not gotten lower, and the sheer amount of support for a suspect for kyurem voiced by people within the last however many pages of this thread. Again, if YOU PERSONALLY think something is broken or suspect worthy, then you should be asking for a suspect instead of trying to seem strategic or tactical, because that just isn't going to work. if kyurem doesn't get banned again, then that sucks, but I hate to tell you this, but we can wait for 2 weeks, a month or 3 months and it still might not get banned, and that's something you're going to need to accept.

 

[RS25802580]

Just look at how many people gave veti's post a like: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...on-v4-gouging-fire-is-banned.3732644/page-535

It is more well-liked than any pro-ban Kyurem post in recent times, and Storm Zone notably gave veti's post a love, meaning he would almost surely vote DNB if not enough time is given for players to adapt/innovate.

Counterpoint: CTC’s DNB comment on the recent Gouging Fire suspect thread got more likes than most pro-Ban comments (33 total), and yet the suspect outcome was a landslide Ban vote.

Counting a post’s likes isn’t the same as counting opinions. Many people might like a post simply because they respect someone going against the grain, or because they like who the commenter is, rather than fully agreeing.

What’s more accurate is seeing the overwhelming number of pro-Ban comments, many from influential players, which was something also observed in the Gouging suspect.

 

[Avira]

Counterpoint: CTC’s DNB comment on the recent Gouging Fire suspect thread got more likes than most pro-Ban comments (33 total), and yet the suspect outcome was a landslide Ban vote.

Counting a post’s likes isn’t the same as counting opinions. Many people might like a post simply because they respect someone going against the grain, or because they like who the commenter is, rather than fully agreeing.

What’s more accurate is seeing the overwhelming number of pro-Ban comments, many from influential players, which was something also observed in the Gouging suspect.

In the last 10 pages of the thread, the vast majority of the people calling for an immediate Kyurem suspect are those who have never gotten reqs for an OU suspect test this generation or any generation. Yes, I know there is an appetite among even skilled players for suspecting Kyurem, but by far the most outcry around Kyurem is from less-skilled (or experienced) players, which was the inverse for Gouging Fire, where less-skilled players were more likely in favour of not suspecting Gouging Fire whereas the players most likely to get reqs wanted Gouging Fire gone ASAP. That suggests that a Kyurem suspect's results would be nowhere the overwhelming 90+% majority that Gouging Fire had, so there is a reason to try to time the Kyurem suspect well to get a ban result.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

In the last 10 pages of the thread, the vast majority of the people calling for an immediate Kyurem suspect are those who have never gotten reqs for an OU suspect test this generation or any generation. Yes, I know there is an appetite among even skilled players for suspecting Kyurem, but by far the most outcry around Kyurem is from less-skilled (or experienced) players, which was the inverse for Gouging Fire, where less-skilled players were more likely in favour of not suspecting Gouging Fire whereas the players most likely to get reqs wanted Gouging Fire gone ASAP. That suggests that a Kyurem suspect's results would be nowhere the overwhelming 90+% majority that Gouging Fire had, so there is a reason to try to time the Kyurem suspect well to get a ban result.

forgive me for doubting you, but your last tiering prediction was that gouging fire would be a dnb due to low turnout from the pro-ban side. after a result that different from your projections, i think it'd be prudent to re-evaluate the method you're using to make predictions before going around claiming things about a kyurem suspect that isn't even guaranteed to be happening

 

[Avira]

forgive me for doubting you, but your last tiering prediction was that gouging fire would be a dnb due to low turnout from the pro-ban side. after a result that different from your projections, i think it'd be prudent to re-evaluate the method you're using to make predictions before going around claiming things about a kyurem suspect that isn't even guaranteed to be happening

Don't make shit up, DaddyBuzzwole. After you said Gouging Fire would be banned by a 90+% majority, I said I saw it being banned by a smaller margin than that (won't quite reach that stratosphere was what I said), so, no, my last prediction was not that the result would be DNB. I know you're always looking to make some wisecrack, but you should at least get your info right before doing so.

 

[Heatranator]

Don't make shit up, DaddyBuzzwole. After you said Gouging Fire would be banned by a 90+% majority, I said I saw it being banned by a smaller margin than that (won't quite reach that stratosphere was what I said), so, no, my last prediction was not that the result would be DNB. I know you're always looking to make some wisecrack, but you should at least get your info right before doing so.

This is for both the gouging suspect and the volcarona suspect, both of which you were 'scared' that the mon was going to be DNB, which was proven wrong twice.
So DBZ is actually right in this case, and getting snappy at him will do nothing except make you look like a fool.

 

[Avira]

The proof is here that I indicated that I knew Gouging Fire would be banned (won't quite reach that stratosphere was what I said):

Post in thread 'np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 13 - Through the Fire and Flames'

Sep 6, 2024

last week when the thread went up
realistically, the vote will probably take a day or two, so it's likely we'll know the result sometime on sunday. in my personal opinion, though, the community consensus on the mon seems to be pretty strong—by my count there was about as much pro-gouging sentiment expressed in this as there was pro-bloodmoon sentiment in that thing's thread—so there's the possibility that we get an extremely one-sided vote, in which case we might be done by the end of saturday

I believe you're exaggerating the degree of pro-ban sentiment for Gouging Fire in...

• Avira

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That is it for me regarding this conversation. I will never respond to any of Heatranator and DaddyBuzzwole's posts again for lying out their asses as they're just on a witchhunt for anyone who doesn't 100% agree with them on everything. Anyone else I have replied to before that I am still okay with, but I am not going to let DaddyBuzzwole derail another thread.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Don't make shit up, DaddyBuzzwole. After you said Gouging Fire would be banned by a 90+% majority, I said I saw it being banned by a smaller margin than that (won't quite reach that stratosphere was what I said), so, no, my last prediction was not that the result would be DNB. I know you're always looking to make some wisecrack, but you should at least get your info right before doing so.

The proof is here that I indicated that I knew Gouging Fire would be banned (won't quite reach that stratosphere was what I said):

Post in thread 'np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 13 - Through the Fire and Flames'

Sep 6, 2024

last week when the thread went up
realistically, the vote will probably take a day or two, so it's likely we'll know the result sometime on sunday. in my personal opinion, though, the community consensus on the mon seems to be pretty strong—by my count there was about as much pro-gouging sentiment expressed in this as there was pro-bloodmoon sentiment in that thing's thread—so there's the possibility that we get an extremely one-sided vote, in which case we might be done by the end of saturday

I believe you're exaggerating the degree of pro-ban sentiment for Gouging Fire in...

• Avira

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• 
• 

That is it for me regarding this conversation. I will never respond to any of Heatranator and DaddyBuzzwole's again for lying out their asses as they're just on a witchhunt for anyone who doesn't 100% agree with them on everything.

first off, you're on record saying verbatim that you were "nervous that low turnout will prevent gouging fire from getting banned". second, you're falsely claiming that i said gouging fire would be banned by a 90+% majority. what i said, and what you screenshotted, was that there was a possibility we got a one-sided vote, and that public support for gouging in that thread was about the same as public support for bloodmoon in its thread. nowhere did i say it would be a similar voting margin to bloodmoon, or assert anything with confidence, i just brought up the possibility. third, even if i had said the exact words you put in my mouth, those words were right, and you were wrong. at least come up with a lie that makes you look good

I am not going to let DaddyBuzzwole derail another thread.

in case you haven't been paying attention, the last several pages have been people talking about the merits of a pokemon that isn't in the tier and will never be in the tier. that is derailing. this is discussion about a future kyurem suspect, its potential timing, and its possible results, all of which are under the purview of "meta discussion". or at least it was, until you came in here and started accusing people of "making shit up", trying to use forum likes as evidence for your points, not keeping people's names out of your mouth, and all sorts of other wack shit

 

[Heatranator]

That is it for me regarding this conversation. I will never respond to any of Heatranator and DaddyBuzzwole's again for lying out their asses as they're just on a witchhunt for anyone doesn't 100% agree with them on everything.

Okay, this is just ridiculous. Multiple, multiple people have told you "hey, maybe stop doomposting because it doesn't accomplish anything" and you have just doubled down with flimsy arguements because a few people have said "hey, we should delay the suspect test" even when the vast majority of people in this thread and top players have said they want to ban kyurem.
Also how the hell are we lying out of our asses, seriously. You are on record for saying that you "are nervous that low turnout will prevent gouging fire will be banned" and "we will be getting a DNB verdict", both of those were wrong. Having a tantrum because somebody called you out on something (neither me or dbz were the ones who started this, so knock that shit off that we are after you) is frankly dumb.

 

[Joycap]

if kyurem survives a second suspect test, i urge the council to quickban pressure as a workaround. the only other casualties for that are the deoxys forms and frankly i'd rather see them go than kyurem stay. yes, this would be a blatant abuse of power and go against tiering philosophy, but getting kyurem out of here is more important than democracy or protocol

Me, as someone who has contemplated banning Supreme Overlord in place of banning Kingambit:

...At least that's what I would say, and yet I turn the page and... what the hell happened here?

On another note - as far as Kyurem is concerned, let us put this into perspective: Iron Bundle abuses Freeze-Dry in an... admittedly different way, but is still banned because that move pushes it over the edge (or at the very least, it did). And yet IB has far less coverage than Kyurem does, and even debatably shares a few answers with all the recent Palafin discussion (Zamazenta comes to mind (?), and Volcanion stonks shoot up). IB was the mon I was alluding to in an earlier post, namely if there ever is a TB ban, so at that point, either both stay or both go. I absolutely wouldn't mind.

 

[ausma]

I think in terms of building a schematic of action, I think something like Kyurem -> A month or two, ideally lapsing during a major tournament -> Survey would make the most sense. If and when Tera Blast stands out the most, then making a policy thread on Tera Blast with a good margin of time in between action would make the most sense. To be clear this is extremely tentative, my own opinion, and not reflective of the council's opinions/plans.

Most people here are already pretty aware of how much I detest Tera Blast and how emphatic I would be to have it gone, but I feel as though its divisive nature and the general misunderstanding of people's grievances with it in the metagame would not lead to a very successful suspect at this time. IMO a Tera Blast suspect is one of those things where people need to be on the same page with why it's being put in the spotlight, or else it will just lead to most people looking at it, the concept of taking action, and the state of the metagame in a big vacuum.

Ubers UU's suspect on Tera Blast would not at all capture how a suspect would pan out here due to it being an entirely separate metagame and having a much smaller playerbase, but the fact it saw less than 50% ban votes provides some evidence that the paradigm regarding its dynamic with the formats it's most present in trends against action, typically in favor of targeting the more obviously broken things that make use of it in a more directly impactful way. This was evident with Ubers UU's council quickbanning Dawn Wings Necrozma after the test, and many people in the suspect thread directly citing it as the problem instead of Tera Blast, which certainly affected (at least a little bit) how some people voted. I believe something similar happened with Kyurem and Volcarona earlier this generation when more obvious targets were at large, leading some people to either become hesitant on addressing them or misunderstand the pro-ban sentiment against these Pokemon.

Oftentimes, a pro-ban mindset tends to evaluate specifically on the basis of if something is broken and actively warping the tier with little cost to the user as opposed to if something is subtle, deeply rooted, and unhealthy; and it's worth noting that Tera Blast is leagues from conventionally broken due to its major drawbacks. Given that there are arguably still numerous problem children in the tier, I am fairly confident in saying that people are going to be far more hesitant on acting against Tera Blast and instead focus their sights on these more obvious problems that make use of the move, understandably; though, this discrepancy would most likely impact how Tera Blast by itself is evaluated and lead to a suspect where people are all looking at the issue not from different lenses, but different fields altogether.

To be 100% clear, this is not at all a dock against pro-Tera Blast users, but I mention this moreso to illustrate that I don't think most pro-Tera Blast and anti-Tera Blast users are yet on the same page regarding the general basis of pro-ban and anti-ban sentiment -- which makes me worry that a suspect happening sometime soon will yield a result that doesn't reflect the core of the problem -- and that prioritization can affect voting mentality. This is why I'm in the camp of opening a policy review thread when Tera Blast becomes the most standout target, since it would give the community and the council an opportunity to publicly revisit the discussion of Tera, and for anti- and pro-Tera Blast campaigners to clarify their stances/ensure everyone understands one another so an eventual test would have all the cards on the table. If this happens and Tera Blast survives, then I would have nothing to complain about; that's what suspects are for. I only mention this because I want the suspect to look at Tera Blast from the root up, instead of other elements of the format and misunderstandings about each side's arguments complicating how people view and approach the issue.

For the immediate future, I support a Kyurem suspect. Gouging Fire leaving the tier is great and loosens the pressure on the tier for sure, but frankly it was so blatantly absurd that its effects on teambuilding were less obvious (barring that goofy Dachsbun stall) and generally spread thin across numerous checks in the builder compared to most things to where metagame development isn't really going to trend in a very obvious or meaningfully anti-Kyurem direction. So in justifying a suspect, I don't really think we need a survey? Kyurem is still doing the same things it's always done, and in some ways, Gouging Fire leaving the tier actively benefits some of its sets and bolsters their variance (namely Dragon Dance ones). I don't think a suspect should happen right this second, but sometime in the next week or two feels reasonable enough if Kyurem has yet to relent its pressure.

 

[Tio Chico]

Since the beginning of February, when Kyurem was not banned even with a 58% support.
At the time, one of the main DnB arguments was the need for Kyurem to counter Rain/Sun that dominated the ladder. Now both Torkoal and Pelipper are not even in OU, Archaludon was banned next, then Volcarona which was one of the best Kyurem ''counters''. The beginning of the OLT brought us the SubProt set, and Freeze-Dry has never stopped being a problem, with a coverage that not even Tera Blast can provide.
Kyurem has been on the rise since February when it was already broken and if there is an exception to the "rule" of waiting a 2 week period for the metagame to adapt, it should be Kyurem.

I was not won over by Ausma's arguments, because I was never exactly against his position on Tera Blast, but I have changed my POV on this. Not even Baton Pass had an outright ban, so the only way we can have a chance at a metagame without Terastal is by gradually de-characterizing it until other players can see its other negative effects. If in a future I'm until present and the opportunity arises, I will take a pro-ban stance.


Supreme Overlord with 135 atk and 100/120/80 bulk makes this Pokémon Broken.
Sucker Punch + Terastal type change makes this Pokémon unhealthy, with unthought-out and only guessable interactions between opponents. We've had enough of seeing Kingambit endgames. Is Encore enough? Please don't. Just wait for someone to start using Mental Herb.
Kingambit is centralizing, it can fit as the last slot in anything other than hard stall. There's no reason not to use it. One could argue that bans and more bans will only take away the diversity of the tier, but when something is too good to be unused and forces counterplay with more than one Pokémon, we are trading a variety on paper for a practical loss in diversity.
It encourages Broken x Broken. I see several anti-Zamazenta posts and several players saying that it can even be broken, but it is a necessary evil. This Pokémon, like Kyurem, has been DnB in the past and is in a growing development and is out of control, but it will have little support if Kingambit remains.
Pre-DLC, Kingambit was DnB even with 55% support for banning it.

After Kyurem and then the adaptation period, I call attention to Kingambit being a problem for the tier.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Since the beginning of February, when Kyurem was not banned even with a 58% support.
At the time, one of the main DnB arguments was the need for Kyurem to counter Rain/Sun that dominated the ladder. Now both Torkoal and Pepipper are not even in OU, Archaludon was banned next, then Volcarona which was one of the best Kyurem ''counters''. The beginning of the OLT brought us the SubProt set, and Freeze-Dry has never stopped being a problem, with a coverage that not even Tera Blast can provide.
Kyurem has been on the rise since February when it was already broken and if there is an exception to the "rule" of waiting a 2 week period for the metagame to adapt, it should be Kyurem.

I was not won over by Ausma's arguments, because I was never exactly against his position on Tera Blast, but I have changed my POV on this. Not even Baton Pass had an outright ban, so the only way we can have a chance at a metagame without Terastal is by gradually de-characterizing it until other players can see its other negative effects. If in a future I'm until present and the opportunity arises, I will take a pro-ban stance.


Supreme Overlord with 135 atk and 100/120/80 bulk makes this Pokémon Broken.
Sucker Punch + Terastal type change makes this Pokémon unhealthy, with unthought-out and only guessable interactions between opponents. We've had enough of seeing Kingambit endgames. Is Encore enough? Please don't. Just wait for someone to start using Mental Herb.
Kingambit is centralizing, it can fit as the last slot in anything other than hard stall. There's no reason not to use it. One could argue that bans and more bans will only take away the diversity of the tier, but when something is too good to be unused and forces counterplay with more than one Pokémon, we are trading a variety on paper for a practical loss in diversity.
It encourages Broken x Broken. I see several anti-Zamazenta posts and several players saying that it can even be broken, but it is a necessary evil. This Pokémon, like Kyurem, has been DnB in the past and is in a growing development and is out of control, but it will have little support if Kingambit remains.
Pre-DLC, Kingambit was DnB even with 55% support for banning it.

After Kyurem and then the adaptation period, I call attention to Kingambit being a problem for the tier.

My mate, it is 2024. We are about to have Legends of Kalos and the tier is infested with a bunch of mons that abuse Tera much better.
Every argument about Kingambit always has "but Tera" kind of argument. Then why exactly is Gambit a problem, but not Tera?
Mental Herb Gambit is non-existent. You waste a slot of item for your Gambit to either get chipped to hell or lose to basically every other physical walls in the tier (Corviknight, Skarm, Tusk, Dozo...).
If you consider Zamn to be necessary evil, then why do you even consider Gambit to be broken? Zamn isn't just a sole Gambit check. It blankets every physical threat in the tier, as well as pretty much every special attackers that aren't faster than it. It can also make use of tera, in fact, even better than Gambit because it actually has the good stat to abuse it.
In pre-Home meta, which didn't have as many broken threats as DLC2 meta, it wasn't banned. Now do you suggest that you ban it while the tier is infested with a bunch of fast hard-hitting mons that can set up?

 

[Finchinator]

rn. In most tiers on Smogon, it’s presence would be enough for a qb vote

Just pointing out that this is insane cap. It literally was suspected and remained unbanned. No tier ever would quickban something after it was voted to stay in the tier.

It would always be another suspect.

 

[Joycap]

No tier ever would quickban something after it was voted to stay in the tier.

It would always be another suspect.

Yeah... uh...

Announcement Post in thread 'Galarian Darmanitan, Ash-Greninja, Mega Metagross, Tornadus-T, and Urshifu-S are now banned from National Dex'

Jul 4, 2020

From the tier’s inception, Mega Metagross has been a dominant Pokemon thanks to its incredible stats, substantial movepool, fantastic ability, and strong defensive traits. it constrained teambuilding to the degree that all teams must have at least two ways of dealing with it. After Mega Blastoise’s ban, Mega Metagross started to tap in to its movepool, notably using Toxic to cripple otheriwise solid checks like Mega Slowbro, Alomomola, Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, and Hippowdon. Once poisoned, these Pokemon would struggle to stave off a...​

• Solaros & Lunaris

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• 
• 

"To summarize, by the time the voting period concluded, 12 voters had not cast their vote. More than 60% of those who did cast votes voted to ban Mega Metagross. However, when taken as a percentage of all qualified voters, Mega Metagross did not meet the proper ban threshold" ~ @Hogg

Timing discrepancy between suspect unban and QB: less than two months.

[Curb your enthusiasm theme plays]

 

[Finchinator]

Yeah... uh...

Announcement Post in thread 'Galarian Darmanitan, Ash-Greninja, Mega Metagross, Tornadus-T, and Urshifu-S are now banned from National Dex'

Jul 4, 2020

From the tier’s inception, Mega Metagross has been a dominant Pokemon thanks to its incredible stats, substantial movepool, fantastic ability, and strong defensive traits. it constrained teambuilding to the degree that all teams must have at least two ways of dealing with it. After Mega Blastoise’s ban, Mega Metagross started to tap in to its movepool, notably using Toxic to cripple otheriwise solid checks like Mega Slowbro, Alomomola, Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, and Hippowdon. Once poisoned, these Pokemon would struggle to stave off a...​

• Solaros & Lunaris

• 
• 
• 

Timing discrepancy between suspect unban and QB: less than two months.

[Curb your enthusiasm theme plays]

National dex is not an official tier and is subject to an entirely different, far more lax set of rules. They quickban half a dozen things at a time on numerous occasions and have so many more Pokemon than us.

Please do the bare minimum of research and due diligence. You will not find a single example in OU (or UU-PU) history of a quickban overturning a suspect.

 

[Finchinator]

The fact that anyone suggests a quickban on the table is pretty much an instant tip that they need to take a step back and think this through.

Imagine trying your hardest to get reqs on the first Kyurem test and voting fairly only to have the entire vote and result overturned without getting a chance to participate again. This defeats the entire suspect process. This is the most simple tiering principal.

It wouldn’t be approved by higher ups and it certainly wouldn’t be approved by tier leadership. It’s just foolish.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

National dex is not an official tier and is subject to an entirely different, far more lax set of rules. They quickban half a dozen things at a time on numerous occasions and have so many more Pokemon than us.

Please do the bare minimum of research and due diligence. You will not find a single example in OU (or UU-PU) history of a quickban overturning a suspect.

National dex sometimes even bans stuff for meta progression (See Zamazenta-H as a good example of that), which is not something that would happen in a normal OU tier, action is a lot swifter and hasty in natdex as a way to put it.

Action is slower but more thorough and careful in SV OU when comparing. Personally I think I prefer this approach the SV council has taken but I think natdex’s course of action with brokens is valid too

 

[Joycap]

National dex is not an official tier and is subject to an entirely different, far more lax set of rules. They quickban half a dozen things at a time on numerous occasions and have so many more Pokemon than us.

And before you say it - please enlighten me on how a week between given bans is "enough time", somehow not subject to arbitration, or even what your definition of enough time is actually supposed to be? Cheers.

Please do the bare minimum of research and due diligence. You will not find a single example in OU (or UU-PU) history of a quickban overturning a suspect.

I don't see the fact that ND "isn't an official tier" as relevant to this discussion, when the foundation of ND's approach to tiering policy is largely copied from the 'main' tiers (or at the very least, is born out of what would have been if coding cuts / dexit wasn't a thing). If you're going to resort to equivocation and arguing semantics, I think you can do better than this.

Still...

The fact that anyone suggests a quickban on the table is pretty much an instant tip that they need to take a step back and think this through.

Imagine trying your hardest to get reqs on the first Kyurem test and voting fairly only to have the entire vote and result overturned without getting a chance to participate again. This defeats the entire suspect process. This is the most simple tiering principal.

It wouldn’t be approved by higher ups and it certainly wouldn’t be approved by tier leadership. It’s just foolish.

Props for admitting that this would be a mistake, I guess? Even if you and the rest of council have been actively hypocritical about far worse in the name of a 'healthy metagame'...

 

[Finchinator]

If I had a dollar for every time this dude posted a meme that made no sense and acted like he knew better than the tiering guidelines, I would have two dollars.

This isn't a lot, but it's weird that it's happened twice.

 

[Finchinator]

Props for admitting that this would be a mistake, I guess? Even if you and the rest of council have been actively hypocritical about far worse in the name of a 'healthy metagame'...

What mistake? I voted ban and we conducted suspects on this the same way we have numerous others, but the point is process here. You literally have spent posts confusing things, spewing misinformation, and comparing things that are not comparable at all.

I have asked you to lurk more multiple times now. You are fresh off of a ban and numerous posting violations. Why keep posting when your posts are not based in reality and instead based in being critical over things outside of your own understanding? I mean what the hell are we even doing here

 

[Joycap]

What mistake? I voted ban and we conducted suspects on this the same way we have numerous others, but the point is process here. You literally have spent posts confusing things, spewing misinformation, and comparing things that are not comparable at all.

The thing that I highlighted? Eh, who am I kidding, we're evidently talking past each other at this point...

If not engaging with the point I'm trying to make is how you sleep at night, I won't stop you. Got a pet mod and lower tiers I'd rather be settling into anyway.

Oh, and small edit: it's not "this isn't a lot", it's "which isn't a lot". Just putting that on the table.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The fact that anyone suggests a quickban on the table is pretty much an instant tip that they need to take a step back and think this through.

that's one possibility. another possibility is that maybe the thing people are suggesting to quickban is a massive unaddressed problem and people are fed up with it. only way to find out is a survey, and i'm fine waiting for that (although i'd prefer the fast-suspect option)