Maybe the time will come when we learn the secret behind his Terastal manipulations and deny him these immunity schemes - your request is granted.
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Evil Incineroar Has to Die
- Thread starter Adeleine
- Start date
A tangent, but there's something special about Kyogre still launching the strongest unboosted special nuke after 22 years of powercreep.
Kids tend not to use boosting moves. And if you were a kid back when RSE dropped, this thought experiment reminds us why Kyogre made us feel like a god.
Kids tend not to use boosting moves. And if you were a kid back when RSE dropped, this thought experiment reminds us why Kyogre made us feel like a god.
Do effects with 100% chance of occurring count as 'luck-based'? Can't think of an example where it'd matter but just asking in case.
If we have a sand stream Pokemon (or snow warning if we allow pre gen-9 hail), do we count the chip if we force a tera type that isn't immune to the relevant weather?
If so (and we're allowing hail over snow), Abomasnow should just reach over the 33.3% mark after chip damage from hail. A Tera Ice in the following scenario would lead to more damage from Abomasnow.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Grass Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 95-112 (24.1 - 28.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO.
Following the idea of using Z-Moves from Chameleon these all clear the 33.3% mark:
-1 252+ Atk Steely Spirit Tera Steel Perrserker Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Incineroar: 131-155 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO (was mentioned earlier but without the Tera Steel)
-1 252+ Atk Water Bubble Tera Water Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Incineroar: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO (Liquidation)
252+ SpA Adaptability Tera Ice Porygon-Z Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Incineroar: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 21.6% chance to 3HKO (Blizzard)
Also Basculegion without using Z-Moves:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Rock Basculegion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Incineroar: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO.
Edit: Just realised it says 33.3% minimum, oh well, this one works though
252+ Atk Tera Water Crawdaunt Hydro Vortex (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Incineroar: 157-185 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Hyper cutter blocks intimidate)
If we have a sand stream Pokemon (or snow warning if we allow pre gen-9 hail), do we count the chip if we force a tera type that isn't immune to the relevant weather?
If so (and we're allowing hail over snow), Abomasnow should just reach over the 33.3% mark after chip damage from hail. A Tera Ice in the following scenario would lead to more damage from Abomasnow.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Grass Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 95-112 (24.1 - 28.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO.
Following the idea of using Z-Moves from Chameleon these all clear the 33.3% mark:
-1 252+ Atk Steely Spirit Tera Steel Perrserker Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Incineroar: 131-155 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO (was mentioned earlier but without the Tera Steel)
-1 252+ Atk Water Bubble Tera Water Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Incineroar: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO (Liquidation)
252+ SpA Adaptability Tera Ice Porygon-Z Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Incineroar: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 21.6% chance to 3HKO (Blizzard)
Also Basculegion without using Z-Moves:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Rock Basculegion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Incineroar: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO.
Edit: Just realised it says 33.3% minimum, oh well, this one works though
252+ Atk Tera Water Crawdaunt Hydro Vortex (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Incineroar: 157-185 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Hyper cutter blocks intimidate)
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I just want to note because I forgot last night (I remembered it but apparently forgot to edit the post) for some reason my mind forgot Electric resiste Grass, so I put that there, but since Electric also has a resist rather than only an immunity IDK why it wouldn't be included LOL
I'm a dumbasssss
we're supposed to kill him not help him!
Ok so I need a bit of guidance here
How would Evil Incineroar deal with Komala's Sleep Talk?
would he magically know what Komala decides to do or would he be unable to predict what eepy man is going to do
(because if he can't we have a 115 Base Attacker with the potential to do 1x damage)
How would Evil Incineroar deal with Komala's Sleep Talk?
would he magically know what Komala decides to do or would he be unable to predict what eepy man is going to do
(because if he can't we have a 115 Base Attacker with the potential to do 1x damage)
I'm pretty sure no matter what Incineroar has the set that will take the least damage
For a strategy to be sufficiently not-luck-based, it needs to have a greater than 50% chance of meeting whatever damage threshold you put out. Whether Sleep Talk is choosing between two moves or three, the chance it lands on its most effective option is not high enough to meet that threshold, capping at 50% exactly if choosing between two. Short answer: I don't think Sleep Talk will help you.
Long answer:
Let's say you have a Choice Band Komala with Sleep Talk, Giga Impact, Superpower, and Knock Off.
Evil Incineroar knows you will click Sleep Talk, but he does not know which move you will select. He knows each move has a 1/3 chance of being selected. Given his priorities of Survive > Minimize damage taken, he will pick the counterplay option that causes him to take the lowest expected damage, assuming this option has a zero risk of him being OHKOed. We would conceptualize "lowest expected damage" as an expected value, an average, a mean. Let's work through a simple example to make sure we're on the same page when it comes to expected value.
Let's say that, for whatever unknown reason, Incineroar holds no item and changes to Tera Electric.
There is a 1/3 chance he will eat Giga Impact, a a 150 BP STAB move. We can factor in STAB to say it's equivalent to a 225 BP move.
There is a 1/3 chance he will eat a Superpower, a 120 BP non-STAB move.
There is a 1/3 chance he will eat a Knock Off, a 65 BP (no item) non-STAB move.
We can say the expected value / average / mean outcome is a generic move of the following base power:
1/3*225 + 1/3*120 + 1/3*65. Put this in your calculator to get an outcome of about 137. In other words, the "average outcome" here is pretty similar to taking a Superpower. STAB Giga is way stronger than non-STAB Superpower, 65 BP Knock is way weaker, and Superpower is exactly as strong as itself, so this outcome makes sense.
Let's return to our Sleep Talk, Giga Impact, Superpower, and Knock Off set. Learning how Evil Incineroar would respond here is a bit tricky and not obvious. For our math-loving friends, it's an optimization problem of the roughly the following form, where we need to minimize the following outcome. (The following form can be modified to be more generalizable to other situations.)
⅓*150*1.5*T1*I1 + ⅓*120*T2*I2 + ⅓*65*T3*I3
T(N) and I(N) represent the influence of Evil Incineroar's Tera Type and Item, respectively. This Tera Type and Item are the same across all three parts of the calculation – because Evil Incineroar doesn't know what move Sleep Talk will call, and because sets can't be changed after hitting the "Battle! button" he can't just prepare separate counter-sets for each called move and pick the appropriate one. However, the Tera Type and Item he chooses may interact differently with all three components of the calculation. Suppose he chose Steel as his Tera Type and Chilan Berry as his item. T1 = 0.5, because Steel halves damage by resisting Giga Impact, and I1=0.5, because Chilan Berry halves Giga Impact's damage. T2 = 2 and I2 = 1; Tera Steel makes Evil Incineroar weak to Fighting, and Chilan Berry doesn't matter here. T3 = 1 and I3 = 1.5; Tera Steel has no influence on Knock Off's damage, so it just multiplies by 1, and Chilan Berry makes Knock Off stronger by giving Komala an item to knock off.
For... various reasons... I will not attempt an exact calculus-based optimization and instead will present a reasonable, more intuitive guess on what Evil Incineroar might get up to in this scenario. Tera Ghost makes Evil Incineroar weak to Knock Off, but he becomes immune to the two strongest moves, so that's probably worth it too. Chilan Berry seems worth it, because halving Giga Impact's enormous power is more impactful than raising Knock Off's paltry power. However, because Tera Ghost nullifies Giga Impact anyway, avoiding Chilan is better to minimize Knock Off damage. In fact, because the only situation Evil Incineroar takes damage here is "eat a Dark-type Knock Off while Tera Ghost", the Colbur Berry is actually the optimal item because it will activate.
Given Evil Incineroar's tendency to minimize damage dealt, I will use my damage equation to see if this item/Tera combination seems like a reasonable guess for what he will do in this situation.
⅓*150*2.5*0*1 + ⅓*120*0*1 + ⅓*65*2*0.5
This equation sums to about 22. In other words, because Evil Incineroar is using the best strategy available, our Sleep Talk, Giga Impact, Superpower, and Knock Off set is about as effective as one hit of a neutral Bullet Seed. Clearly, our set is not a winner. But it gets worse. The only way this set does any damage at all in this situation is if it hits the ⅓ chance and lands on Knock Off. However, since its chance to deal Knock Off damage is less than (½ + 1), it is deemed too luck-reliant to count. The only damage threshold this set can hit without excessively relying on luck is... literally zero damage. I promise not all Sleep Talk sets will be this dismal and atrocious, but I don't think they will succeed.
Long answer:
Let's say you have a Choice Band Komala with Sleep Talk, Giga Impact, Superpower, and Knock Off.
Evil Incineroar knows you will click Sleep Talk, but he does not know which move you will select. He knows each move has a 1/3 chance of being selected. Given his priorities of Survive > Minimize damage taken, he will pick the counterplay option that causes him to take the lowest expected damage, assuming this option has a zero risk of him being OHKOed. We would conceptualize "lowest expected damage" as an expected value, an average, a mean. Let's work through a simple example to make sure we're on the same page when it comes to expected value.
Let's say that, for whatever unknown reason, Incineroar holds no item and changes to Tera Electric.
There is a 1/3 chance he will eat Giga Impact, a a 150 BP STAB move. We can factor in STAB to say it's equivalent to a 225 BP move.
There is a 1/3 chance he will eat a Superpower, a 120 BP non-STAB move.
There is a 1/3 chance he will eat a Knock Off, a 65 BP (no item) non-STAB move.
We can say the expected value / average / mean outcome is a generic move of the following base power:
1/3*225 + 1/3*120 + 1/3*65. Put this in your calculator to get an outcome of about 137. In other words, the "average outcome" here is pretty similar to taking a Superpower. STAB Giga is way stronger than non-STAB Superpower, 65 BP Knock is way weaker, and Superpower is exactly as strong as itself, so this outcome makes sense.
Let's return to our Sleep Talk, Giga Impact, Superpower, and Knock Off set. Learning how Evil Incineroar would respond here is a bit tricky and not obvious. For our math-loving friends, it's an optimization problem of the roughly the following form, where we need to minimize the following outcome. (The following form can be modified to be more generalizable to other situations.)
⅓*150*1.5*T1*I1 + ⅓*120*T2*I2 + ⅓*65*T3*I3
T(N) and I(N) represent the influence of Evil Incineroar's Tera Type and Item, respectively. This Tera Type and Item are the same across all three parts of the calculation – because Evil Incineroar doesn't know what move Sleep Talk will call, and because sets can't be changed after hitting the "Battle! button" he can't just prepare separate counter-sets for each called move and pick the appropriate one. However, the Tera Type and Item he chooses may interact differently with all three components of the calculation. Suppose he chose Steel as his Tera Type and Chilan Berry as his item. T1 = 0.5, because Steel halves damage by resisting Giga Impact, and I1=0.5, because Chilan Berry halves Giga Impact's damage. T2 = 2 and I2 = 1; Tera Steel makes Evil Incineroar weak to Fighting, and Chilan Berry doesn't matter here. T3 = 1 and I3 = 1.5; Tera Steel has no influence on Knock Off's damage, so it just multiplies by 1, and Chilan Berry makes Knock Off stronger by giving Komala an item to knock off.
For... various reasons... I will not attempt an exact calculus-based optimization and instead will present a reasonable, more intuitive guess on what Evil Incineroar might get up to in this scenario. Tera Ghost makes Evil Incineroar weak to Knock Off, but he becomes immune to the two strongest moves, so that's probably worth it too. Chilan Berry seems worth it, because halving Giga Impact's enormous power is more impactful than raising Knock Off's paltry power. However, because Tera Ghost nullifies Giga Impact anyway, avoiding Chilan is better to minimize Knock Off damage. In fact, because the only situation Evil Incineroar takes damage here is "eat a Dark-type Knock Off while Tera Ghost", the Colbur Berry is actually the optimal item because it will activate.
Given Evil Incineroar's tendency to minimize damage dealt, I will use my damage equation to see if this item/Tera combination seems like a reasonable guess for what he will do in this situation.
⅓*150*2.5*0*1 + ⅓*120*0*1 + ⅓*65*2*0.5
This equation sums to about 22. In other words, because Evil Incineroar is using the best strategy available, our Sleep Talk, Giga Impact, Superpower, and Knock Off set is about as effective as one hit of a neutral Bullet Seed. Clearly, our set is not a winner. But it gets worse. The only way this set does any damage at all in this situation is if it hits the ⅓ chance and lands on Knock Off. However, since its chance to deal Knock Off damage is less than (½ + 1), it is deemed too luck-reliant to count. The only damage threshold this set can hit without excessively relying on luck is... literally zero damage. I promise not all Sleep Talk sets will be this dismal and atrocious, but I don't think they will succeed.
If it makes Evil Incineroar wish he never accepted the battle it's all worth it
edit: -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Komala Giga Impact vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Tera Dark Incineroar: 254-300 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
fear the koala.
(if you're wondering why this is so high it's because I forgot about that stupid berry!)
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I use attract on evil incineroar. Falling in love makes evil incineroar reconsider what they're doing with their life and renouncing their evil ways resulting in a OHKO to their evilness
Incineroar's gentlemanly nature does not seem to extend to offering his opponent any Ethers or Leppa Berries.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy Sylveon Trump Card vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tera Poison Incineroar: 197-232 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also tera Z moves are crazy so several calcs can be improved with them
252+ SpA Tinted Lens Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tera Rock Incineroar: 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If this thread has taught me anything it's that Komala needs Fire Punch
He's autodidactic, Evil Incineroar just spent a lot of time in the library as a kid. His upbringing in an environment that allowed for intense social ostracisation among kids set him down this Evil path.
So far, I am the only person who has been able to defeat him, using the power of drugs and therapeutic conversations with friends
he doesn't even need to tera Dark to be immune to that one
Strategy for Submission. Put him into a fighting game he's never played before against me. I will pick a top tier and guide him towards playing mid-tier and very complicated characters, and then after about half an hour, I will tell him I need to go to bed when in reality I will be sharing the replays with various discord servers.
I think his optimal item would be Wise Glasses, letting him intuit the metagame of the game you've chosen and choose a character that happens to have a winning matchup against your main.
...or he'll pick a top tier
gently prodding incineroar to approach my f-hime from the air by spamming 236a
There is a Fire type Mon that is more evil than evil Incineroar:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tera Rock Incineroar: 93-110 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
The actual minimal damage is 36,1%, since there is trapping damage from Magma Storm.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tera Rock Incineroar: 93-110 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
The actual minimal damage is 36,1%, since there is trapping damage from Magma Storm.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Komala Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Chilan Berry Tera Fairy Incineroar: 127-150 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Finally, Komala can chill with the best of them.
In the less evil category.
Finally, Komala can chill with the best of them.
In the less evil category.
Komala doesn't have Scrappy or anything similar, so Incineroar can just Terastallize Ghost to become immune to the attack
E: realized it was about Less Evil Incin, not Evil Incin