Serious The Politics Thread

[S.A.C. Martin]

Just to give a big shout out to the BBC for doing absolutely no reporting on the UNGA Palestine/Israel resolution which overwhelmingly passed today. Just business as normal for the BBC. No reporting on anything of consequence that isn’t something that can be perceived as pro Israeli. Bravo. What what and all that.

No really, it is frustrating that such a bastion of news reporting in the UK is so openly incapable of having any kind of balanced or rational reporting on the subject of Palestine. Seems impossible. Thank god for channel 4 then.

 

[cala_aa]

If you aren't already convinced about Israel's complete disregard for international law and its intent on making the Levant its own fascist playground, I am in complete disbelief. By completely ignoring the ongoing Palestinian genocide, the Western world has given Israel the green light to do whatever it pleases, and I fully believe that the Israeli pager attack is just the start. At this point, I'm convinced that Israel could conduct something the likes of a pager attack on American soil, and America wouldn't waver its support.

 

[Cancel cult]

or do you just like to see yourself type

this is rich coming from you. true or not, people do believe Hamas is a terrorist organisation. now, what you should do if you see someone believing misinformation is give them well documented sources that state otherwise, which you do. what you should not do is accuse them of being a facist, which is something you have spectacularly failed at. you've made your assessment of me clear, so allow me to make mine. I think you are someone who wants to do the right thing, and goes to great lengths to back up their claims. I also think that you are unable to consider the possibility that you are wrong, and that your knee-jerk response to someone disagreeing with you is to label them a facist. and since you want me to cite sources so badly, then I think I just might in this situation.

Fuck it I'm ready for the discourse, Teh's hilarious

View attachment 670082

exibit a
I don't know what happened between you and boo, but imma be real, he is not at all the kind of guy I'd peg as a bigot. I don't know why he's banned, but I have seen some concerning behaviors from him, all of them reinforcing my belief that he is exactly who he says he is, someone who has dedicated significant time and effort to researching and outing facists. I don't believe for a second that he is what you claim he is. what I do believe, however, is some of the claims he's made against you. he's said that you misconstruct facts to paint your native. this, I don't believe. I don't think you are the type of person to do such a thing. he's also said you have a habit of grandstanding, and that your views of things are incredibly one sided, and oh boy, this fits you to a tee. any time anyone on this thread even shows the slightest bit of criticism for Hamas, you instantly call them an israel supporting facist. I think you construct a narrative in your head where you are the righteous all knowing truth speaker, and that anyone who disagrees with you is a spy sent by Israel to kill you and everyone you love. you've said the word facist so much that I've practically gone numb to you saying that. If you can point to a single example, just one, where you say you were wrong about something in this thread, then I will delete this post and publicly appoligise. but I don't think there exists an example of that, and I don't think there ever will be. I dont think you will take anything I say here seriously, but I hope against all hope that you do. I don't think you are a bad person, but I do think that you have gotten into a disastrous habit of villanising anyone who disagrees with you, and this will only ever lead to you being stuck in a feedback loop of only information that supports things you already believe. I genuinely worry about you. I know you carry with you a lot of anger, and I know that it has probably served you well, but I hope someday you can learn to let it go, because I doubt that anger has done much for your mental well being.

the vast majority of boo's posts are still visible in this thread. while searching through a thread for specific conversations is difficult (u have to like remember the precise wording someone used to be able to find a specific post), searching all the posts from a particular user is very easy. instead of speculating on the basis of 'first impressions', why dont you investigate the facts first. search the thread for posts from boo836 or whatever the username is i forget, and read them for yourself. (and maybe next time, investigate the facts before speaking rather than afterward.)

i think using the template teh made for joking around about tiering users as evidence for anything is pretty silly. (but also i often do not pay attention to peoples profile pics here so i cant identify most of the users anyway lol). as for actual posts with content, i have not seen a single instance where sabelette described a position someone took as fascist in a way that i thought was remotely unreasonable (it might be worth noting here that some people use fascist in narrower ways than others, like for me i dont rly worry much about the technical definition and am fine grouping eg any genocide apoligism within the term fascism. but some people are more rigid about the terminology and eg would not describe mainstream amerikkkan politics as fascist, not bc they are minimizing the genocidal character of such but they just wont use the word fascist in any context where there is bourgeois democracy (elections).) if you disagree then u can express that i guess tho it also seems kinda out of the bounds for this thread, especially when we have been barred from discussing political conflicts in smogon but we are allowed to have conversation(s) interrogating all the posts of a random individual user? and like why is this your concern. are we going to have entire conversations about the details of every user's engagement with this thread and speculation about "what it means about our cognitive and emotional states" or whatever?

i also think it is worth emphasizing here that criticizing someone for taking a fascist position in one particular situation is not like a "judgment of their character" or something, its just an objective/external description of the politics that particular position represents. none of us have perfect politics, and we all can potentially be susceptible to propoganda and adopting right wing and fascist positions. it is not helpful for any of us to fantasize that we are somehow immune from spreading right wing and fascist politics, because we think we are "good people" or "innocent" or whatever. ("identifying as a leftist" also does exactly nothing to prevent oneself from adopting fascist position(s), in fact there are entire fascist communities organized around a myth that they are "leftists," for example vaush's youtube.)
on the other hand, criticizing right wing politics whenever they appear, even when they are promoted by our friends or when we otherwise feel empathy for the person propogating them, is an important and effective tool for protecting ourselves and each other from succumbing to the fascist political ideologies that pervade practically every aspect of our society.

this is a fantastic post that I will review tomorrow, but it is getting late.

 

[juoean]

this is rich coming from you. true or not, people do believe Hamas is a terrorist organisation. now, what you should do if you see someone believing misinformation is give them well documented sources that state otherwise, which you do. what you should not do is accuse them of being a facist, which is something you have spectacularly failed at. you've made your assessment of me clear, so allow me to make mine. I think you are someone who wants to do the right thing, and goes to great lengths to back up their claims. I also think that you are unable to consider the possibility that you are wrong, and that your knee-jerk response to someone disagreeing with you is to label them a facist. and since you want me to cite sources so badly, then I think I just might in this situation.

exibit a
I don't know what happened between you and boo, but imma be real, he is not at all the kind of guy I'd peg as a bigot. I don't know why he's banned, but I have seen some concerning behaviors from him, all of them reinforcing my belief that he is exactly who he says he is, someone who has dedicated significant time and effort to researching and outing facists. I don't believe for a second that he is what you claim he is. what I do believe, however, is some of the claims he's made against you. he's said that you misconstruct facts to paint your native. this, I don't believe. I don't think you are the type of person to do such a thing. he's also said you have a habit of grandstanding, and that your views of things are incredibly one sided, and oh boy, this fits you to a tee. any time anyone on this thread even shows the slightest bit of criticism for Hamas, you instantly call them an israel supporting facist. I think you construct a narrative in your head where you are the righteous all knowing truth speaker, and that anyone who disagrees with you is a spy sent by Israel to kill you and everyone you love. you've said the word facist so much that I've practically gone numb to you saying that. If you can point to a single example, just one, where you say you were wrong about something in this thread, then I will delete this post and publicly appoligise. but I don't think there exists an example of that, and I don't think there ever will be. I dont think you will take anything I say here seriously, but I hope against all hope that you do. I don't think you are a bad person, but I do think that you have gotten into a disastrous habit of villanising anyone who disagrees with you, and this will only ever lead to you being stuck in a feedback loop of only information that supports things you already believe. I genuinely worry about you. I know you carry with you a lot of anger, and I know that it has probably served you well, but I hope someday you can learn to let it go, because I doubt that anger has done much for your mental well being.

the vast majority of boo's posts are still visible in this thread. while searching through a thread for specific conversations is difficult (u have to like remember the precise wording someone used to be able to find a specific post), searching all the posts from a particular user is very easy. instead of speculating on the basis of 'first impressions', why dont you investigate the facts first. search the thread for posts from boo836 or whatever the username is i forget, and read them for yourself. (and maybe next time, investigate the facts before speaking rather than afterward.)

i think using the template teh made for joking around about tiering users as evidence for anything is pretty silly. (but also i often do not pay attention to peoples profile pics here so i cant identify most of the users anyway lol). as for actual posts with content, i have not seen a single instance where sabelette described a position someone took as fascist in a way that i thought was remotely unreasonable (it might be worth noting here that some people use fascist in narrower ways than others, like for me i dont rly worry much about the technical definition and am fine grouping eg any genocide apoligism within the term fascism. but some people are more rigid about the terminology and eg would not describe mainstream amerikkkan politics as fascist, not bc they are minimizing the genocidal character of such but they just wont use the word fascist in any context where there is bourgeois democracy (elections).) if you disagree then u can express that i guess tho it also seems kinda out of the bounds for this thread, especially when we have been barred from discussing political conflicts in smogon but we are allowed to have conversation(s) interrogating all the posts of a random individual user? and like why is this your concern. are we going to have entire conversations about the details of every user's engagement with this thread and speculation about "what it means about our cognitive and emotional states" or whatever?

i also think it is worth emphasizing here that criticizing someone for taking a fascist position in one particular situation is not like a "judgment of their character" or something, its just an objective/external description of the politics that particular position represents. none of us have perfect politics, and we all can potentially be susceptible to propoganda and adopting right wing and fascist positions. it is not helpful for any of us to fantasize that we are somehow immune from spreading right wing and fascist politics, because we think we are "good people" or "innocent" or whatever. ("identifying as a leftist" also does exactly nothing to prevent oneself from adopting fascist position(s), in fact there are entire fascist communities organized around a myth that they are "leftists," for example vaush's youtube.)
on the other hand, criticizing right wing politics whenever they appear, even when they are promoted by our friends or when we otherwise feel empathy for the person propogating them, is an important and effective tool for protecting ourselves and each other from succumbing to the fascist political ideologies that pervade practically every aspect of our society.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

If you aren't already convinced about Israel's complete disregard for international law and its intent on making the Levant its own fascist playground, I am in complete disbelief. By completely ignoring the ongoing Palestinian genocide, the Western world has given Israel the green light to do whatever it pleases, and I fully believe that the Israeli pager attack is just the start. At this point, I'm convinced that Israel could conduct something the likes of a pager attack on American soil, and America wouldn't waver its support.

The bit that absolutely stunned and scared me is the pagers one. If they can do that in Lebanon, they can do it everywhere. My wife uses a pager for work (surgeon) and so does large swathes of the NHS in the UK generally. They’re well used across the globe.

Who’s the terrorist state if you can put explosives in pagers, then detonate them remotely and also kill/maim/injure thousands of civilians at the same time?

And this is what the United States considers its strongest ally? So all morals have gone out of the window in the USA’s political class in favour of running cover for murder now?

 

[adjectivenoun]

(it might be worth noting here that some people use fascist in narrower ways than others, like for me i dont rly worry much about the technical definition and am fine grouping eg any genocide apoligism within the term fascism. but some people are more rigid about the terminology and eg would not describe mainstream amerikkkan politics as fascist, not bc they are minimizing the genocidal character of such but they just wont use the word fascist in any context where there is bourgeois democracy (elections).)

I do have some objection to exceptionally broad uses of the term because I think that an awareness of the things identified as signifiers of fascism in an academic context — appeals to an idealized past, aesthetics of bluntness and simplistic violence, extreme nationalism, etc. — is important for properly identifying and attacking the fascist movements that exist in places like the United States and have been gaining traction for many years now. Excessive use of the term gives the fascists cover. I don't disagree with the assessment of Israel as a fascistic state, but not just because it's committing a genocide. It checks many more boxes than just being genocidal.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

this is rich coming from you. true or not, people do believe Hamas is a terrorist organisation. now, what you should do if you see someone believing misinformation is give them well documented sources that state otherwise, which you do. what you should not do is accuse them of being a facist, which is something you have spectacularly failed at. you've made your assessment of me clear, so allow me to make mine. I think you are someone who wants to do the right thing, and goes to great lengths to back up their claims. I also think that you are unable to consider the possibility that you are wrong, and that your knee-jerk response to someone disagreeing with you is to label them a facist. and since you want me to cite sources so badly, then I think I just might in this situation.

exibit a
I don't know what happened between you and boo, but imma be real, he is not at all the kind of guy I'd peg as a bigot. I don't know why he's banned, but I have seen some concerning behaviors from him, all of them reinforcing my belief that he is exactly who he says he is, someone who has dedicated significant time and effort to researching and outing facists. I don't believe for a second that he is what you claim he is. what I do believe, however, is some of the claims he's made against you. he's said that you misconstruct facts to paint your native. this, I don't believe. I don't think you are the type of person to do such a thing. he's also said you have a habit of grandstanding, and that your views of things are incredibly one sided, and oh boy, this fits you to a tee. any time anyone on this thread even shows the slightest bit of criticism for Hamas, you instantly call them an israel supporting facist. I think you construct a narrative in your head where you are the righteous all knowing truth speaker, and that anyone who disagrees with you is a spy sent by Israel to kill you and everyone you love. you've said the word facist so much that I've practically gone numb to you saying that. If you can point to a single example, just one, where you say you were wrong about something in this thread, then I will delete this post and publicly appoligise. but I don't think there exists an example of that, and I don't think there ever will be. I dont think you will take anything I say here seriously, but I hope against all hope that you do. I don't think you are a bad person, but I do think that you have gotten into a disastrous habit of villanising anyone who disagrees with you, and this will only ever lead to you being stuck in a feedback loop of only information that supports things you already believe. I genuinely worry about you. I know you carry with you a lot of anger, and I know that it has probably served you well, but I hope someday you can learn to let it go, because I doubt that anger has done much for your mental well being.

What even is this Cancel Cult

Like, I’m sorry, but what are you talking about?

This is not based in reality.

There was an academic discussion - which I was part of - discussing international law and how Hamas is categorised/perceived by different nations.

Now, look here - where Israel is concerned, given everything that has happened in the last eleven months, yes you might actually be a supremacist fascist if you can look at what Israel has done and still say “they have a right to defend themselves”.

You are on the wrong side of history if you are actively supporting Israel right now, sorry to say to you so bluntly. You can’t “both sides” a genocide, and there is no time in history where a colonizer or a genocidal group hasn’t been later identified for what they were and rightly condemned in the history books.

This is one of those times. The UNGA btw has an excellent resolution that passed today which lists everything Israel has to reverse course on, and frankly even the Nazis of Germany in WW2 would blush at some of the horrific things Israel is accused of doing.

I mean, for the love of god - even the UK, one of Israel’s erstwhile backers, abstained today AND ALSO expressed support for the ultimate message within the document:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...els-presence-in-the-occupied-palestinian-terr

The United Kingdom has abstained on today’s resolution.

The United Kingdom has done so not because we do not support the central findings of the ICJ’s Advisory Opinion but rather because the resolution does not provide sufficient clarity to effectively advance our shared aim of a peace premised on a negotiated two-state solution: a safe and secure Israel alongside a safe and secure Palestinian state.

As a state committed to the international rule of law, we respect the Court and call for states to unite around renewed efforts towards a negotiated settlement, in accordance with international law and the relevant resolutions of the Security Council. We stand ready to work with other Member States on future resolutions before the General Assembly and in the Security Council, seeking to fashion a broad consensus on the way forward, with re-energised determination to accelerate the path to peace.

While our abstention reflects our unwavering determination to focus on efforts to bring about a peaceful and negotiated two-state solution, the United Kingdom aims, by this statement, to indicate our clear view that Israel should bring an end to its presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territories as rapidly as possible. And every effort must be made to create the conditions for negotiations which provide for a sovereign, viable and free Palestine, alongside a safe, secure and free Israel, recognising the security concerns and right to self-defence of each one. We must also work towards the reunification of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza in line with 1967 borders and under the effective control of the Palestinian Authority, as a fundamental step towards a two-state solution.

Turning now to address settlements in particular, the United Kingdom is gravely concerned by Israel’s continued actions which undermine prospects for peace. Expansion of settlements, in clear violation of international law, must cease immediately. There have been unprecedented levels of violence by extremist settlers over the past year.

We have witnessed with grave concern how an increasing number of residents of illegal Israeli settlements and outposts have systematically used harassment, intimidation and violence to put pressure on Palestinian communities to leave their land. We call on Israel to hold those responsible to account.

Alongside our partners, the UK has imposed sanctions on individuals and entities responsible for these acts. We continue to track closely these acts of violence and where appropriate the UK will seek to extend sanctions. We are clear. Any efforts to change the geographic or demographic make-up of the Occupied Palestinian Territories through force and outside a negotiated settlement are illegal.

President, the situation in Gaza continues to subject Palestinian civilians to horrendous suffering, and over 100 hostages remain held by Hamas in abhorrent conditions. We need to see an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and the release of the hostages.

We will continue to work urgently to help bring peace and galvanise a political process towards a two-state solution which provides long-term peace and security for both Israelis and Palestinians alike. I thank you.
Published 18 September 2024

“But Hamas” no longer washes with the international community. They want to see an end to the suffering by way to an end of the conflict and to see Israel respect international law.

Whether the latter happens, IMO, is based on whether the USA respects the ICJ and international law - and judging by their vote today, I sincerely doubt it.

 

[juoean]

The bit that absolutely stunned and scared me is the pagers one. If they can do that in Lebanon, they can do it everywhere. My wife uses a pager for work (surgeon) and so does large swathes of the NHS in the UK generally. They’re well used across the globe.

Who’s the terrorist state if you can put explosives in pagers, then detonate them remotely and also kill/maim/injure thousands of civilians at the same time?

And this is what the United States considers its strongest ally? So all morals have gone out of the window in the USA’s political class in favour of running cover for murder now?

to be clear the US never had such 'moral standards' for its allies/client states, Saudi Arabia, apartheid South Africa, what is now the Taliban during the soviet-afghanistan war, the contras and their drug cartels in central america, Pinochet and the other fascist dictatorships incorporated into Operation Condor under Pinochet's direction/lead, Bautista regime in cuba, far-right governments in South Korea South Vietnam etc, i mean the list goes on and on im sure there are dozens of more examples that im leaving out even just since wwii.

not that all of these are necessarily at the same scale etc, but us imperialism has always relied on fascist regimes as 'allies' and never drew any red lines over even mass-scale violence against civilians.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I do have some objection to exceptionally broad uses of the term because I think that an awareness of the things identified as signifiers of fascism in an academic context — appeals to an idealized past, aesthetics of bluntness and simplistic violence, extreme nationalism, etc. — is important for properly identifying and attacking the fascist movements that exist in places like the United States and have been gaining traction for many years now. Excessive use of the term gives the fascists cover. I don't disagree with the assessment of Israel as a fascistic state, but not just because it's committing a genocide. It checks many more boxes than just being genocidal.

My apologies for posting (yet again) but this. So much this.

There’s 15 characteristics of a fascist state I remember from school:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2. Disregard for human rights
3. Identification of Enemies as unifying cause
4. Supremacy of the Military
5. Widespread sexism
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
9. Corporate power is protected
10. Labour power is suppressed
11. Disrespect for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections
15. Emergency Powers to hold onto Power

These quite clearly identify the Nazis, Mussolini in Italy, Tojo Hideki (admiral) in Japan, and similar.

Check these off against Israel:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - https://berkleycenter.georgetown.ed...rael-and-the-racist-exclusion-of-palestinians
2. Disregard for human rights - https://www.un.org/unispal/document...lity-in-a-post-apartheid-world-press-release/
3. Identification of Enemies as unifying cause - https://besacenter.org/a-new-existential-war-part-i-israels-perception-of-the-enemys-goals/
4. Supremacy of the Military - https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country_id=israel
5. Widespread sexism - https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-ranked-lowest-of-all-oecd-countries-in-gender-equality-index/
6. Controlled Mass Media - https://rsf.org/en/country/israel
7. Obsession with National Security - https://www.jstor.org/stable/173993
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - https://www.state.gov/wp-content/up...22-INTERNATIONAL-RELIGIOUS-FREEDOM-REPORT.pdf
9. Corporate power is protected - ?
10. Labour power is suppressed - ?
11. Disrespect for Intellectuals and the Arts - ?
12. Obsession with crime and punishment - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel...soner-alleged-rape-sde-teinman-abuse-protest/
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption - https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/netanyahu-trial/
14. Fraudulent Elections - https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ion-fraud-accuses-rival-duplicity-2021-06-06/
15. Emergency Powers to hold onto Power - https://www.lawfaremedia.org/articl...ory-of-war-powers-and-institutional-ambiguity

So that’s…12 out of 15 I make it. Worrying, no?

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

to be clear the US never had such 'moral standards' for its allies/client states, Saudi Arabia, apartheid South Africa, what is now the Taliban during the soviet-afghanistan war, the contras and their drug cartels in central america, Pinochet and the other fascist dictatorships incorporated into Operation Condor under Pinochet's direction/lead, Bautista regime in cuba, far-right governments in South Korea South Vietnam etc, i mean the list goes on and on im sure there are dozens of more examples that im leaving out even just since wwii.

not that all of these are necessarily at the same scale etc, but us imperialism has always relied on fascist regimes as 'allies' and never drew any red lines over even mass-scale violence against civilians.

Yes, agree with you there.

 

[BestDatrix]

One last tierlist...

 

[juoean]

(im p sure adjectivenoun was agreeing with describing the zionist entity as fascist, j was saying that they do prefer a more particularized definition of fascism and perhaps would not describe other genocidal states as fascist.)

and tbc from my pov i rly dont care about these kinds of terminology 'debates', however each person wants to use the word is fine with me, j something to be aware of in communication that not everyone uses the word fascist in precisely the same way.
(since i have no idea what it is that cancel cult is claiming sabelette inaccurately characterized as fascist, i have no way of evaluating whether a difference in terminology is 'at play' in this particular instance.)

 

[Bakugames]

I don't do terminology debates because this is not my language and I have read and learned most of my politics from portuguese sources. Everytime I debate in english imagine me opening a dictionary and fighting for my life.

 

[SittinGamer]

If I recall this the inciting incident to which cancel cult holds all of this is when we were discussing the right to violent resistance, the conversation where it came up whether it would be just for Native Americans to kill the colonialists etc, to which cult said something of the effect of "what of the innocents" and many of us said "if you are part of an occupational force by definition you aren't innocent".

Honestly this whole beef or whatever has just felt to me like Cult yelling at a Jew during the Holocaust to be careful to not grow indiscriminately hateful of Germans and it comes off as very naive and (like a true centrist) having an issue more with rhetoric than the actual positions taken.

 

[Pinecoishot]

If I recall this the inciting incident to which cancel cult holds all of this is when we were discussing the right to violent resistance, the conversation where it came up whether it would be just for Native Americans to kill the colonialists etc, to which cult said something of the effect of "what of the innocents" and many of us said "if you are part of an occupational force by definition you aren't innocent".

Honestly this whole beef or whatever has just felt to me like Cult yelling at a Jew during the Holocaust to be careful to not grow indiscriminately hateful of Germans and it comes off as very naive and (like a true centrist) having an issue more with rhetoric than the actual positions taken.

The phenomenon of the American liberal sitting in privilege telling the people being genocided to not be too violent, not have any unjustified hatred of the people supporting and doing it, make sure to do everything in what they find perfect, as their whole family is getting bombed, their children getting sniped in the head, their people getting put into camps and tortured will always be disgusting to me. The blame here will always be on the ones committing a genocide and shifting the focus to policing how someone resists that serves as just a less obvious form of allowing it to me

 

[Blue glass]

Honestly this whole beef or whatever has just felt to me like Cult yelling at a Jew during the Holocaust to be careful to not grow indiscriminately hateful of Germans and it comes off as very naive and (like a true centrist) having an issue more with rhetoric than the actual positions taken.

Well, you see...

 

[juoean]

omg i missed the "the world becoming inhabitable is more pressing than genocide" sentence, as if the ecological conditions of the planet are not a direct consequence of centuries of colonialism and genocides

 

[cala_aa]

The phenomenon of the American liberal sitting in privilege telling the people being genocided to not be too violent, not have any unjustified hatred of the people supporting and doing it, make sure to do everything in what they find perfect, as their whole family is getting bombed, their children getting sniped in the head, their people getting put into camps and tortured will always be disgusting to me. The blame here will always be on the ones committing a genocide and shifting the focus to policing how someone resists that serves as just a less obvious form of allowing it to me

Exactly. The "Perfect Victim" narrative comes from the Western liberal's subconscious urge to hand-wave all injustice that doesn't directly impact them. People end up spending much more time criticizing the people who they acknowledge are being genocided, rather than the state that's committing genocide.

omg i missed the "the world becoming inhabitable is more pressing than genocide" sentence, as if the ecological conditions of the planet are not a direct consequence of centuries of colonialism and genocides

Another thing to note is that the ecological impact of the Palestinian genocide is nothing to scoff at either (Check "Environmental Impact of the Conflict in Gaza", it's a good read). "The world becoming inhabitable is more pressing than genocide" is just a red herring. If you truly cared about the environment, you'd care about the effects of an ongoing genocide on the climate as well.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I don't really get why there's this tendency for, let's be honest, almost exclusively centrists to try and frame an issue as being "bigger", "more urgent", or otherwise more pressing than another issue and use that as an excuse to disregard the latter issue entirely. We are capable of addressing more than one problem at once, you know. Surely you understand this, so it comes across as a sort of bad-faith attempt at stifling conversation, albeit an incredibly ineffectual and honestly kind of pathetic one.

 

[juoean]

yea thats exactly what i meant @ the ecological impact of the palestinian genocide. including specific and deliberate tactics of ecological violence used by the zionist entity, such as broad deforestation aimed at destroying the indigenous economy in which olive trees have a significant role.
(and one can make connections between the role of deforestation and other ecological violence in the palestinian genocide, and similar tactics deployed by genocidal colonizers in sub saharan africa and south america (probably also in various parts of asia but i dont have the knowledge to speak to that), carrying out broad deforestations etc destroying indigenous economies and ecologies for colonial profit.)

and tbc cancel cult was specifically making that point @ we can address more than one issue at a time, but its just the specific choice made in that sentence...... ~

 

[Divine Retribution]

and tbc cancel cult was specifically making that point @ we can address more than one issue at a time, but its just the specific choice made in that sentence...... ~

I mean, I guess, but the way they worded it seems pretty self-contradictory and the overall point seemed to be that we should focus on either combating perceived anti-Semitism or climate change instead of the Palestinian genocide, because we have no power over the latter. This is obviously non-sense even by its own internal logic; it's not like we have any more power over the first two issues, and like I said, there's nothing stopping us from like... doing both.

That's not defending the idea that anything Sabelette said is anti-Semitic, by the way. I just don't understand how that statement was supposed to make any sense even if we assume all its axioms are true.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

If you’re arguing the toss about the rhetoric being used when:

75,000 tons of bombs have been used on a virtually unarmed population in a year
42,000 people, mostly children, are definitely dead
Up to 160,000 might be
2.3 million people have lost their homes and livelihoods
Thousands of animals have perished and the ecology of a whole area is now so polluted and toxic it’ll take decades to restore to support life

And so on and so forth

Then you might be a part of the genocidal force because you’re enabling it rather than stopping it.

Just a thought.

 

[Cancel cult]

What even is this Cancel Cult

Like, I’m sorry, but what are you talking about?

This is not based in reality.

There was an academic discussion - which I was part of - discussing international law and how Hamas is categorised/perceived by different nations.

Now, look here - where Israel is concerned, given everything that has happened in the last eleven months, yes you might actually be a supremacist fascist if you can look at what Israel has done and still say “they have a right to defend themselves”.

You are on the wrong side of history if you are actively supporting Israel right now, sorry to say to you so bluntly. You can’t “both sides” a genocide, and there is no time in history where a colonizer or a genocidal group hasn’t been later identified for what they were and rightly condemned in the history books.

This is one of those times. The UNGA btw has an excellent resolution that passed today which lists everything Israel has to reverse course on, and frankly even the Nazis of Germany in WW2 would blush at some of the horrific things Israel is accused of doing.

I mean, for the love of god - even the UK, one of Israel’s erstwhile backers, abstained today AND ALSO expressed support for the ultimate message within the document:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...els-presence-in-the-occupied-palestinian-terr



“But Hamas” no longer washes with the international community. They want to see an end to the suffering by way to an end of the conflict and to see Israel respect international law.

Whether the latter happens, IMO, is based on whether the USA respects the ICJ and international law - and judging by their vote today, I sincerely doubt it.

this was an unhinged rant about my problems with sable, not about how I support israel. where did you even get that from?

One last tierlist...
View attachment 670445

I think everyone belongs in the bottom tier

the vast majority of boo's posts are still visible in this thread. while searching through a thread for specific conversations is difficult (u have to like remember the precise wording someone used to be able to find a specific post), searching all the posts from a particular user is very easy. instead of speculating on the basis of 'first impressions', why dont you investigate the facts first. search the thread for posts from boo836 or whatever the username is i forget, and read them for yourself. (and maybe next time, investigate the facts before speaking rather than afterward.)

i think using the template teh made for joking around about tiering users as evidence for anything is pretty silly. (but also i often do not pay attention to peoples profile pics here so i cant identify most of the users anyway lol). as for actual posts with content, i have not seen a single instance where sabelette described a position someone took as fascist in a way that i thought was remotely unreasonable (it might be worth noting here that some people use fascist in narrower ways than others, like for me i dont rly worry much about the technical definition and am fine grouping eg any genocide apoligism within the term fascism. but some people are more rigid about the terminology and eg would not describe mainstream amerikkkan politics as fascist, not bc they are minimizing the genocidal character of such but they just wont use the word fascist in any context where there is bourgeois democracy (elections).) if you disagree then u can express that i guess tho it also seems kinda out of the bounds for this thread, especially when we have been barred from discussing political conflicts in smogon but we are allowed to have conversation(s) interrogating all the posts of a random individual user? and like why is this your concern. are we going to have entire conversations about the details of every user's engagement with this thread and speculation about "what it means about our cognitive and emotional states" or whatever?

i also think it is worth emphasizing here that criticizing someone for taking a fascist position in one particular situation is not like a "judgment of their character" or something, its just an objective/external description of the politics that particular position represents. none of us have perfect politics, and we all can potentially be susceptible to propoganda and adopting right wing and fascist positions. it is not helpful for any of us to fantasize that we are somehow immune from spreading right wing and fascist politics, because we think we are "good people" or "innocent" or whatever. ("identifying as a leftist" also does exactly nothing to prevent oneself from adopting fascist position(s), in fact there are entire fascist communities organized around a myth that they are "leftists," for example vaush's youtube.)
on the other hand, criticizing right wing politics whenever they appear, even when they are promoted by our friends or when we otherwise feel empathy for the person propogating them, is an important and effective tool for protecting ourselves and each other from succumbing to the fascist political ideologies that pervade practically every aspect of our society.

as far as I can tell, boos last post was on page 46, and I cant see why that would cause him to get banned. as for times she has vilanised someone who opposed her, the very first time I interacted with her was when I questioned her "all Republicans are facists" claim in the LGBTQ+ thread, where she without hesitation called me a facist in response. there is also the situation of her calling boo a facist which is as far as I can tell baseless, and while the tierlist could just be a shitpost, I personally doubt it, though I guess I will give her the benefit of the doubt. I understand why this post could seem out of left field, but it was a responce to a post she made slinging an accusatoin against me, which in hindsight likely wasn't entirely serious, and my responce was way out of proportion. I don't think it is productive to spend as many posts as I have ranting about one person in particular, and I doubt she is the type of person to listen to someone who is doing this, so I wont make another post like this.

I will say I really appreciate how level headed this post was, and I also agree that no one is immune to propaganda. I really like your point on fascism, and I wish more people would try to talk people out of fascism civilly rather than immediately deeming that person as an irredeemable villain, though I heavily doubt that was what sable was doing.

anyways, sable, Im sorry for being so harsh on you, I just felt like these things needed to be said, though I definitely could have been nicer about it. feel free to take a shot at me, I know I've given you plenty of material.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

this was an unhinged rant about my problems with sable, not about how I support israel. where did you even get that from?

You see Cancel, it’s when you come out with stuff like this that the pendulum swings from good faith debating to bad faith arguing.

I did no such thing and it’s on this thread for everyone to read.

Just because you decided that what I wrote was an “unhinged rant” doesn’t make it so.

I dare say you’ve described it as such to deflect from your obvious failings.

Look, I’m about to jump on a boat but if you could maybe have a bit of time to self reflect on what’s been said and why, then maybe later we can discuss again and hopefully find some common ground.

I will repeat my view: you can’t both sides a genocide, and the time for “but Hamas” has now passed with the continued breaking of international law by Israel over the last eleven months.

And I advise everyone to read or watch the proceedings of the UNGA from yesterday: it is an historic moment that really does sum up well why this conflict has dragged on as it has. Over 75 years of oppression at the heart of it.

 

[Cancel cult]

You see Cancel, it’s when you come out with stuff like this that the pendulum swings from good faith debating to bad faith arguing.

I did no such thing and it’s on this thread for everyone to read.

Just because you decided that what I wrote was an “unhinged rant” doesn’t make it so.

I dare say you’ve described it as such to deflect from your obvious failings.

Look, I’m about to jump on a boat but if you could maybe have a bit of time to self reflect on what’s been said and why, then maybe later we can discuss again and hopefully find some common ground.

I will repeat my view: you can’t both sides a genocide, and the time for “but Hamas” has now passed with the continued breaking of international law by Israel over the last eleven months.

And I advise everyone to read or watch the proceedings of the UNGA from yesterday: it is an historic moment that really does sum up well why this conflict has dragged on as it has. Over 75 years of oppression at the heart of it.

when did you criticise sable? the unhinged rant was my post.