Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

ok in all seriousness we should really consider banning tera blast yea. a supermajority of tera blast usage in OU is specifically sweepers looking to cheese out 6-0s by muscling through would-be counters, from Iron Moth destroying many of common checks with Tera Ground or Ghost to Kingambit running Tera Fairy specifically to say "fuck you" to zama and great tusk. there's very few positives to keeping it in the tier due to it being almost entirely a cheese move in this current metagame. do away with it, smogon community
 
I’ll never understand why people care so much about “an avalanche of bans.” A large ban list doesn’t mean good or bad, and the idea that banning one thing will lead to another should never be considered when talking about Suspects.

Also can we pls call the Tera Blast ban for what it is: The Free Volcarona Ban. People have gotten into their heads that Volcarona would fix everything if allowed back in, and are willing to throw half of what makes Tera Tera away. I feel like if we’re at a point of talking about getting rid of a major aspect this Gens Gimmick then maybe it really is time for a second Tera suspect.
 
It does suck that the possible Tera Blast ban would effect lower tiers where it might be better off (its probably healthy in like PU or something idk), but unfortunately that is just the way tiering policy goes. OU tiering is for OU first and only.
Somewhat off-topic from the state of the metagame right now, but why does this have to be the case?

UU-PU councils are all composed of incredibly competent people who understand where their metagame is at far better than OU council (with no disrespect intended). Do we really have to make this a casualty of being a usage-based tier? Is it not possible for usage-based tiers to take charge of their own metagames rather than having to conform to what OU says in terms of mechanics bans?

If Tera Blast is broken in a certain tier, why does that tier have to suffer until OU bans it?
Conversely, if Tera Blast is completely healthy in a certain tier, why does that tier have to live with OU's ban based on the OU metagame?
 
I’ll never understand why people care so much about “an avalanche of bans.” A large ban list doesn’t mean good or bad, and the idea that banning one thing will lead to another should never be considered when talking about Suspects.

Also can we pls call the Tera Blast ban for what it is: The Free Volcarona Ban. People have gotten into their heads that Volcarona would fix everything if allowed back in, and are willing to throw half of what makes Tera Tera away. I feel like if we’re at a point of talking about getting rid of a major aspect this Gens Gimmick then maybe it really is time for a second Tera suspect.
I do not associate with fix everything Volc unbanners. I simply think the quickban was bullshit and it should've been suspected.
Conversely, if Tera Blast is completely healthy in a certain tier, why does that tier have to live with OU's ban based on the OU metagame?
Because OU is on top and everyone must conform. No, seriously, I'm pretty sure that, just a lot less provocative and insulting, is the reasoning why. Also OU is the only "real" metagame or something like that, it's been a while since I've read up on it.
 
I’ll never understand why people care so much about “an avalanche of bans.” A large ban list doesn’t mean good or bad, and the idea that banning one thing will lead to another should never be considered when talking about Suspects.

Also can we pls call the Tera Blast ban for what it is: The Free Volcarona Ban. People have gotten into their heads that Volcarona would fix everything if allowed back in, and are willing to throw half of what makes Tera Tera away. I feel like if we’re at a point of talking about getting rid of a major aspect this Gens Gimmick then maybe it really is time for a second Tera suspect.
people don't want to ban this gen's gimmick apparently. they're okay with banning everything related to it except the mechanic itself because in all honesty, it's a cool unique mechanic. any changes to make it bearable are more tolerable than banning it
 
WHAT that's not a oneliner i brought up multiple things including a legit opinion there bruh :sob: does everything i say need to be a paragraph or something /genq (INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY)
listen raine i hate to be the voice of reason but this isn't a discord, we can't just do one-liners all the time. even i, the shitposter supreme, try to make sure that a good chunk of my posts contain something substantial to them. this thread is moving at speeds beyond what i've seen since the start of the dlc. it's difficult enough to read without everyone weighing in on everyone else's weighing-in posts
 
...we can go on to revisiting Tera blast over Volcarona, electro shot over arch, palafin and bundle with freed Eleki and rain, stored power over Magearna, and other pieces of the past we can fix. This is a rebirth for the tier and we should treat it as such
Tera Blast is the only thing here that really has merit. I'll go over the other stuff.

:archaludon:: As stated earlier, tiering policy is banning mons over moves. Remember how Houndstone was banned before Basculegion? That was because it was the only thing that got Last Respects. Once Basculegion came around, Last Respects got banned not long after and Houndstone was freed. Archaludon was dumb with Electro Shot, and it was the only thing that had it so... It was banned.

:palafin_hero::iron_bundle:: I'll be honest. These two aren't coming back, and it isn't hard to see why. I really don't know what you're trying to do with this. Please inform me.

:twisted_spoon::magearna:: Stored Power... really isn't too egregious. Magearna, however, is. It has a remarkably good base typing, an awesome moveset, and a great stat spread... Magearna's got it all, and it uses the amazing toolkit it got to its fullest effect. I think we should leave both Stored Power and Magearna be.
 
??? What are you talking about? Please elaborate.

None of this, except maybe tera blast due to being a special case, is going to happen because tiering policy favors banning mons over moves. This isn't going to change in the middle of a generation, and may only change for gen10. Palafin and Bundle should never be touching OU regardless.
Tiering policy may favor banning mons over moves but I think this is a good time to open a conversation about changing that. This generation has seen a ban of a move learned by only two Pokemon TWICE; Houndstone was banned to Ubers just because of Last Respects, and the only thing that changed to get Last Respects banned instead of Houndstone was a singular other Pokemon getting access to it. Functionally speaking, there is no difference between the Last Respects ban and a hypothetical Electro Shot band with Archaludon coming back to OU (and if you say there is, we both know you're bullshitting); differentiating between a move learned by one Pokemon and a move learned by two Pokemon is now all but utterly moot.
 
If Tera Blast is broken in a certain tier, why does that tier have to suffer until OU bans it?
...but they don't have to? If a lower tier is truly suffering from Tera Blast (which none of them are to my knowledge, in fact some of them like it) they can put it up for suspect themselves without having to wait for OU. We've seen this happen for certain items like Light Clay, weather rocks, or abilities like Drought/Drizzle.
 
listen raine i hate to be the voice of reason but this isn't a discord, we can't just do one-liners all the time. even i, the shitposter supreme, try to make sure that a good chunk of my posts contain something substantial to them. this thread is moving at speeds beyond what i've seen since the start of the dlc. it's difficult enough to read without everyone weighing in on everyone else's weighing-in posts
MB I JUST HATE NOT RESPONDING TO PEOPLE. ILL STOP TRUST

anyways uhh yea tera blast will not bring volc back im sorry. that thing is broken with or without. tera water morning sun volc still 1v1s heatran, tera fairy still survives sucker, tera steel still makes it 1v1 rock-types. volc is broken regardless of tera blast, tera is the thing that breaks it.
 
...but they don't have to? If a lower tier is truly suffering from Tera Blast (which none of them are to my knowledge, in fact some of them like it) they can put it up for suspect themselves without having to wait for OU. We've seen this happen for certain items like Light Clay, weather rocks, or abilities like Drought/Drizzle.
True, but that still doesn't change my point that lower tiers shouldn't have to conform by OU bans.
 
I do not associate with fix everything Volc unbanners. I simply think the quickban was bullshit and it should've been suspected.
It was suspected. In DLC2, when it was dropped. That's how we know Volcarona is stupid, because it received a 76% supermajority.

Complain about Volc's quickban if you need ti vent your frustrations, but Volc's 2nd ban was 100% fair. Not sure why this is being opposed so often. If Volc's ban is apparently "unjust and bullshit", then what other bans were dumb? Reminder, Volc and Archaludon have the same ban ratio
 
Tera Blast is the only thing here that really has merit. I'll go over the other stuff.

:archaludon:: As stated earlier, tiering policy is banning mons over moves. Remember how Houndstone was banned before Basculegion? That was because it was the only thing that got Last Respects. Once Basculegion came around, Last Respects got banned not long after and Houndstone was freed. Archaludon was dumb with Electro Shot, and it was the only thing that had it so... It was banned.

:palafin_hero::iron_bundle:: I'll be honest. These two aren't coming back, and it isn't hard to see why. I really don't know what you're trying to do with this. Please inform me.

:twisted_spoon::magearna:: Stored Power... really isn't too egregious. Magearna, however, is. It has a remarkably good base typing, an awesome moveset, and a great stat spread... Magearna's got it all, and it uses the amazing toolkit it got to its fullest effect. I think we should leave both Stored Power and Magearna be.
Magearna (besides its insane set variety and the potency of the CalmGear Stored Power sets) was also a backbone for making Trick Room more usable in OU. Doing everything it did (already a pain in the ass) plus being a good enabler for the slow nuclear tanks (Ursaluna/Iron Hands) as a “little bonus” isn’t healthy at all.
 
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Tera Blast is the only thing here that really has merit. I'll go over the other stuff.

:archaludon:: As stated earlier, tiering policy is banning mons over moves. Remember how Houndstone was banned before Basculegion? That was because it was the only thing that got Last Respects. Once Basculegion came around, Last Respects got banned not long after and Houndstone was freed. Archaludon was dumb with Electro Shot, and it was the only thing that had it so... It was banned.

:palafin_hero::iron_bundle:: I'll be honest. These two aren't coming back, and it isn't hard to see why. I really don't know what you're trying to do with this. Please inform me.

:twisted_spoon::magearna:: Stored Power... really isn't too egregious. Magearna, however, is. It has a remarkably good base typing, an awesome moveset, and a great stat spread... Magearna's got it all, and it uses the amazing toolkit it got to its fullest effect. I think we should leave both Stored Power and Magearna be.
magearna is OP regardless. this thing's offensive sets, from specs breaker to mixed shift gear sweeper, would be insane regardless of SP. plus nobody wants trick room to become more viable, and this bitch is the #1 setter + sweeper since hatterene. if it gets dropped, it's not staying.
 
Somewhat off-topic from the state of the metagame right now, but why does this have to be the case?

UU-PU councils are all composed of incredibly competent people who understand where their metagame is at far better than OU council (with no disrespect intended). Do we really have to make this a casualty of being a usage-based tier? Is it not possible for usage-based tiers to take charge of their own metagames rather than having to conform to what OU says in terms of mechanics bans?

If Tera Blast is broken in a certain tier, why does that tier have to suffer until OU bans it?
Conversely, if Tera Blast is completely healthy in a certain tier, why does that tier have to live with OU's ban based on the OU metagame?

A lower tier could separately ban Tera Blast, as lower tiers don't have extra restrictions on what they can ban, just an inability to un-ban. The reason that bans carry downward is that it'd be really problematic, tiering-policy-wise, for a mon to gain options when it drops tiers, such as UU Serperior having Tera Blast while OU Serperior does not, meaning the former is outright more powerful than the latter.

Tiering policy may favor banning moms over moves but I think this is a good time to open a conversation about changing that. This generation has seen a ban of a move learned by only two Pokemon TWICE; Houndstone was banned to Ubers just because of Last Respects, and the only thing that changed to get Last Respects banned instead of Houndstone was a singular other Pokemon getting access to it. Functionally speaking, there is no difference between the Last Respects ban and a hypothetical Electro Shot band with Archaludon coming back to OU. At this point, differentiating between a move learned by one Pokemon and a move learned by two Pokemon is moot.

This would be a topic for Policy Review. Unbadged users can submit posts for approval, so if you're motivated enough to write a quality proposal, it's possible to get it approved. Do note that this is such fundamental policy that the standard would be insane.
 
Unfortunate, doesn't begin to describe my series.....Not only do I find out that one of my favorite players was involved in a cheating scandal and got banned but the verdict that I was hoping for, fought for and thought was for the better of the meta has been overtuned. The best part? Even with the cheaters removed, the verdict would have still remained if not for one pro-banner actually making a small "prank".


I aint gonna reveal who it is, just live with that guilt of yours user.

This whole thing has been nothing but a clown show.
View attachment 677703


See ya. I am done with this shit. Fuck this tier
Wait. So was this hypothetical person the same or different to the one that already confessed to this?
Understandable. At the time it was funny, but only because I thought Kyu was an obvious ban. My vote didn't feel like it mattered lol..
The result should not have been that close to begin with. This is on those 10 lazy mfs who could have easily gotten reqs but didn't. This is on all those sycophants who don't think for themselves. The list goes on, and all the way to the top. I didn't want to be put in this position. Some casual ladder player shouldn't singlehandedly decide the fate of things of this magnitude. Idk I'm honestly sorry, no response needed.
I don't mean to single LoseToRu? out anymore than already has been. Nor do I want to uncover anyone anonymous. I just want to know if there was actually more than 1 person doing this?
 
I personally didnt get reqs for the :kyurem: Suspect test, but I wasnt completely sure about what we should do with it either.

In one hand, keeping :kyurem: would make balance become awful to play on the metagame, since :kyurem: can either overwhelm it, or get past throught its checks by fishing for freezes, if you have ever run into :kyurem: while having :slowking-galar: as your switch in, you probably have at least once got frozen at any point.

On the other hand, banning :kyurem: would make balance a better playstile, yes, but would very likely turn the meta into an avalanche of bans, starting with :kyurem:, then following up with :gliscor:, and who knows maybe also :darkrai: and :ogerpon-wellspring: added to the mix, completely killing the offensive threats that we have as options, and turn the meta into that boring :zapdos: and :ting-lu: fest that we had some months ago.

I was aware that the :kyurem: vote was very close due to a lot of people talking about that, and I wasnt still completely sure about what the correct route should have been in order to save the metagame, and then right when the votes were revealed, I made my mind, and when it was announced yesterday that :kyurem: got unbanned due to the voting manipulation scandal, at first I felt annoyed but then realised that maybe this is an opportunity to take steps into a diferent direction to make the metagame better.

As you know, :volcarona: got banned months ago, I personally got reqs for this suspect and voted to Ban, and I dont believe neither I or the rest of people that voted ban on that moment made a mistake, as :volcarona: was clearly a broken set up sweeper with so much versatility, but now this thought came back to me and realised, maybe :volcarona: wasnt the problem as a whole, but maybe is Tera Blast.

At first I was hesitate with the idea of banning Tera Blast, since this paired with the Tera mechanic opens the door for a lot of creativity and diversity on the teambuilder, and we should only get rid of the abusers, but since a couple weeks ago I have started to see this argument as pointless, and I will explain why.

Why is Tera Blast the problem and not the abusers?
Technically speaking, every pokemon can abuse of Tera Blast, but what is the point of that, if people is playing to win and will use only the already good pokemon that the metagame offers to abuse Tera Blast instead of more niche options that are less consistent. If we ban the abusers, the metagame will evolve and try to find another abuser that tries to replicate what the previus abuser used to do (unless there is no other pokemon that can come close to do the same), because that is how metagames work, they adapt every moment. Let me put it this way.

Why would you use any offensive fire type with Tera Blast, if you have a better abuser in :volcarona: and :gouging-fire: who are more consistent.

Why would you use any offensive electric type with Blast Ice, if you have a better abuser in :regieleki: who is more consistent.

Why would you use any niche Dragon Dance user with Tera Blast, if you have better abusers in :kyurem: :dragonite: :roaring-moon:

Why would you use any other Sword Dance user with Tera Blast when you have :kingambit: :scizor: and :rillaboom: as options.

If you go and ban every abuser, another one will likely come to replace that role, the easiest example is how :iron-moth: turned from a UU pokemon by usage, to an actual OU threat once :volcarona: got banned, because guess what, it tries to replicate what :volcarona: did.

By removing Tera Blast, we remove the tool that actually turns any potential offensive threat into an autowin button into the correct match up.

This of course does not apply to any pokemon, for example :espathra: imo with or without Tera Blast is a stupid cheesy mon that should never be allowed again in the meta. And also a Tera Blast ban wouldnt kill the versatility and creativity on the teambuilder, since pokemon like :kyurem: and :volcarona: would still be excelent Tera users, but without the extra coverage move tool.

What pokemon could we unban with a Tera Blast ban?
I believe only 2 Uber pokemon would be candidates to be released back into OU with Tera Blast being removed, those being :volcarona: and :regieleki:.
As I mentioned before, I believe :espathra: would still be an absurd and cheesy pokemon, that would force you to bring :kingambit: or :scizor: into every game in order to not lose.
:gouging-fire: despite being an excellent abuser of Blast Fairy, has other sets and options that would just do the exact same it did before, and besides, it just got banned a like a month ago lol.


Would a Tera Blast ban solve the metagame?
Nobody can assure that, but I believe this would be the correct direction in order to get a better metagame while avoiding an avalanche of bans. Having :volcarona: back in the metagame would give balance teams an actual wincon vs offense teams that heavily rely on special set up sweepers like :darkrai: and :raging-bolt:, and also have an actual good check for :kyurem:. We would still need to see if :volcarona: without Tera Blast keeps being a broken threat, but I dont think it would be the case, as it would limit it to only run defensive Teras, and having only Bug, Fire and Grass as offensive options, it would also become stone walled by Dragon types, Unaware users :skeledirge: and :clodsire:, and :garganacl: if it lacks Giga Drain.

This is my first time posting in this thread, and I rarely come to see it, I dont expect to make more posts in the future but I hope the idea of getting rid of Tera Blast is on the table and more people discuss about it.
Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts! This expresses the pro-ban tb position quite well, and better than I or others could explain. Hopefully this doesn't get buried in this thread because lots of people should read it.
TPP (and other mods): hey let's try to cut down on the one liners

The sea of one-liners that RainebowValiant and other dunderheads:

Shame that this happened, but my regards to Finch and the rest of the council for how they've handled it. Not really sure there was a better way to do so from what I've observed. Not an easy situation but they've done a good job.

Since Kyurem is going to be staying now for the foreseeable future (I could see a third suspect far down the line if it continues to be a problem), and there are no other Pokemon immediately on the radar as ban- or even suspect-worthy, I second the opinions that this is a good time to discuss Tera Blast. I do tend to lean towards banning it, but I'm not sold in this opinion. Looking at Pikalytics OU usage rates at the 1500+ ELO bracket, here's a list of Pokemon that use Tera Blast in the OU metagame, along with their overall usage rates and usage of Tera Blast per set, and usage of Tera Blast per team:
PokemonUsageTera Blast Usage (per use)Tera Blast Usage (total)
:landorus-therian:15.82%12.206%1.931%
:dragapult:17.24%14.147%2.439%
:raging-bolt:15.18%7.219%1.096%
:dragonite:12.84%3.713%0.477%
:iron-moth:12.39%36.739%4.552%
:kyurem:12.37%20.437%2.528%
:enamorus:6.26%34.593%2.166%
:heatran:6.18%7.352%0.454%
:serperior:3.17%74.239%2.353%
:sandy-shocks:0.91%76.767%0.699%
:thundurus-therian:0.90%59.681%0.537%
:polteageist:0.70%80.400%0.563%

I included all Pokemon who hit Tera Blast Dragonite (a known strong option in tours) levels of usage or higher (and Heatran because I felt like its stats were high enough to warrant as well). Obviously, usage isn't everything, but I found it interesting and a useful thing to look at if these talks are to happen. I see a couple different categories here: dedicated Tera Blast abusers, who you have to assume have some sort of Tera Blast shenanigans going on, and Pokemon who use it as a tech option. Volcarona and Regieleki, our banned friends, would fall firmly in the former camp as well.
This is a helpful resource. I took a less technical look at recent important tour games with Tera Blast usage, which is a small sample but lets us add another angle to the examination. Obviously I could only look at games where TB was clicked, and can't know how many times it was brought without being used.

In the current ongoing OLT, during the qualifiers:
(replay thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogons-official-ladder-tournament-xi-replay-thread.3750361/)
week 1
Giannis brought TB fairy Raging Bolt vs clean and won g1,
then brought TB Fairy Gouge g2 and lost.
crying brought TB Pecharunt in g1 but tera'd a different mon. TB was still clicked 4 times as normal type coverage in a win.
Welli0u brought TB Ground Iron Moth g1 against Storm Zone and won.
w2
yovan33321 brought TB Fly Dragonite g1 against xdrudi.exe and won.
w3
alh3n brought TB Ghost Moth against ewin g1 and lost.
ahsan219 brought TB Ground Tornadus-T g2 against clean and won.
ahsan219 then brought TB Fairy Kingambit g3 and lost.
w4
Giannis brought TB Fire Kyurem against 3d and won.
clean brought TB Ground Iron Crown against mimilimi and lost.
ahsan219 brought TB Stellar Enamorus against insult and won.
w5
ahsan219 brought TB Ground Kyurem against bbeeaa and lost.
Welli0u brought TB Fairy Gambit against skarpherim and won.
OLT round of 16
Giannis brought TB Fairy Gambit against mimilimi and lost.

And for our other ongoing major gen 9 tour, during Smogon Champion's League:
(replay thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scl-iv-replays.3750816/)
week 1
crying brought TB Fight Pech against ctc and lost.
w2
piyu brought TB Ghost Kyurem against hellom and won.
mimikyu stardust brought TB Ice Landorus-T against welli0u and won.
attribute brought TB Fairy Gambit vs santu and won.
w3
jj09lie brought TB Ground Kyurem vs santu and lost.
pkelsweetforu brought TB Fairy Iron Boulder against mimikyu stardust and won.
ima brought TB Fairy Tornadus-T against acr1 and won
acr1 also brought TB to this game, featuring TB Fire Kyurem in the loss.
w4
jj09lie brought TB Ground Tornadus-T vs a plague doc and lost.
luirromen brought TB Fly Dragonite vs Finchinator and won.
w5 (they're just 4 games into this week)
ewin brought TB Fly Excadrill vs xdrudi.exe and won.

As a bonus, back during OLT OST finals Storm Zone very memorably won both games using the same team featuring a TB Ghost Iron Moth, though he only tera'd it and clicked TB in game 1.

edit: meant OST finals on this last note
 
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True, but that still doesn't change my point that lower tiers shouldn't have to conform by OU bans.
Thinking about Tera Blast in particular though, let’s say only OU bans it and then Regieleki/Espartha/Volcarona are dropped back down to OU. Once Regieleki drops down from OU, that’s a brand new thing the lower tiers have to worry about since that can still abuse Tera in those tiers. Same with Espartha if that drops below OU.

Making bans go down from the highest tier that the ban was established in down to the lower tiers removes the headache of those lower tiers having to ban the new broken-mechanic-abuser that dropped just because they still have the mechanic but the higher tier doesn’t.
 
Tera Blast is the only thing here that really has merit. I'll go over the other stuff.

:archaludon:: As stated earlier, tiering policy is banning mons over moves. Remember how Houndstone was banned before Basculegion? That was because it was the only thing that got Last Respects. Once Basculegion came around, Last Respects got banned not long after and Houndstone was freed. Archaludon was dumb with Electro Shot, and it was the only thing that had it so... It was banned.

:palafin_hero::iron_bundle:: I'll be honest. These two aren't coming back, and it isn't hard to see why. I really don't know what you're trying to do with this. Please inform me.

:twisted_spoon::magearna:: Stored Power... really isn't too egregious. Magearna, however, is. It has a remarkably good base typing, an awesome moveset, and a great stat spread... Magearna's got it all, and it uses the amazing toolkit it got to its fullest effect. I think we should leave both Stored Power and Magearna be.
The only thing of substance in this post is "buh buh buh buh but the rule," chatGPT could describe Magearna more in depth, yes Houndstone was banned and not last respects, was that really the right choice? We are better off now than then with Houndstone banned. Palafin was banned in a completely different meta devoid of ogerpon, devoid of Kyurem, devoid of raging bolt, we need to see if it's really egregious in today's landscape. Same goes for iron bundle, which adds a lot to the tier in a fast encore and strong fast ice stab, it very well may end up broken still but if we are in a place of rebuilding it is worth giving a fair shake, just as the roaring moon volc and gliscor were given which improved the tier (although volc sadly has been again removed). Perhaps even freeze dry in and of itself could be examined.

It was suspected. In DLC2, when it was dropped. That's how we know Volcarona is stupid, because it received a 76% supermajority.
Based on the numbers we had at the time.
 
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Espathra is just outright not a problem without Tera Blast. It was Tera Blast letting it break Steel-type Pokemon that was the issue. It'd be a very hit-and-miss (moreso miss) match-up fish that requires a ton of support without Tera Blast around.

Can you elaborate on this argument? Without icicle spear, Kyurem-B and Baxcalibur would probably not be banworthy but that doesn’t mean we should ban icicle spear. Magearna without Fleur cannon would probably not be banworthy. Only one mon learns fleur cannon, so we can’t ban fleur cannon, but that’s a rule, not a counterargument.

Edit: icicle spear, not loaded dice
 
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Can you elaborate on this argument? Without loaded dice, Kyurem-B and Baxcalibur would probably not be banworthy but that doesn’t mean we should ban loaded dice. Magearna without Fleur cannon would probably not be banworthy. Only one mon learns fleur cannon, so we can’t ban fleur cannon, but that’s a rule, not a counterargument.
bax would absolutely be banned without dice. that mon is crazy without scale shot. it was already being talked about before it got scale shot back in that old ass broken metagame. it'd be insane now, especially with raw scale shot like some kyurems ran.
 
Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts! This expresses the pro-ban tb position quite well, and better than I or others could explain. Hopefully this doesn't get buried in this thread because lots of people should read it.

This is a helpful resource. I took a less technical look at recent important tour games with Tera Blast usage, which is a small sample but lets us add another angle to the examination. Obviously I could only look at games where TB was clicked, and can't know how many times it was brought without being used.

In the current ongoing OLT, during the qualifiers:
(replay thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogons-official-ladder-tournament-xi-replay-thread.3750361/)
week 1
Giannis brought TB fairy Raging Bolt vs clean and won g1,
then brought TB Fairy Gouge g2 and lost.
crying brought TB Pecharunt in g1 but tera'd a different mon. TB was still clicked 4 times as normal type coverage in a win.
Welli0u brought TB Ground Iron Moth g1 against Storm Zone and won.
w2
yovan33321 brought TB Fly Dragonite g1 against xdrudi.exe and won.
w3
alh3n brought TB Ghost Moth against ewin g1 and lost.
ahsan219 brought TB Ground Tornadus-T g2 against clean and won.
ahsan219 then brought TB Fairy Kingambit g3 and lost.
w4
Giannis brought TB Fire Kyurem against 3d and won.
clean brought TB Ground Iron Crown against mimilimi and lost.
ahsan219 brought TB Stellar Enamorus against insult and won.
w5
ahsan219 brought TB Ground Kyurem against bbeeaa and lost.
Welli0u brought TB Fairy Gambit against skarpherim and won.
OLT round of 16
Giannis brought TB Fairy Gambit against mimilimi and lost.

And for our other ongoing major gen 9 tour, during Smogon Champion's League:
(replay thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scl-iv-replays.3750816/)
week 1
crying brought TB Fight Pech against ctc and lost.
w2
piyu brought TB Ghost Kyurem against hellom and won.
mimikyu stardust brought TB Ice Landorus-T against welli0u and won.
attribute brought TB Fairy Gambit vs santu and won.
w3
jj09lie brought TB Ground Kyurem vs santu and lost.
pkelsweetforu brought TB Fairy Iron Boulder against mimikyu stardust and won.
ima brought TB Fairy Tornadus-T against acr1 and won
acr1 also brought TB to this game, featuring TB Fire Kyurem in the loss.
w4
jj09lie brought TB Ground Tornadus-T vs a plague doc and lost.
luirromen brought TB Fly Dragonite vs Finchinator and won.
w5 (they're just 4 games into this week)
ewin brought TB Fly Excadrill vs xdrudi.exe and won.

As a bonus, back during OLT finals Storm Zone very memorably won both games using the same team featuring a TB Ghost Iron Moth, though he only tera'd it and clicked TB in game 1.
I think the three usages of Torn-T here is interesting and shows that ladder usage doesn't correlate 1-1. Past that, there's a lot of Pokemon on this list that didn't make my chart--Kingambit was notably absent, for instance. I think that the higher up you go in skill, the more likely you're going to see off-beat Tera types and thus Tera Blasts (what even is the tera ground torn lol), which means that as you get better at predicting, you ironically might have a harder time predicting what Tera user the opponent will bring, which I think plays into the Uncompetitive argument.
 
A lower tier could separately ban Tera Blast, as lower tiers don't have extra restrictions on what they can ban, just an inability to un-ban. The reason that bans carry downward is that it'd be really problematic, tiering-policy-wise, for a mon to gain options when it drops tiers, such as UU Serperior having Tera Blast while OU Serperior does not, meaning the former is outright more powerful than the latter.
My apologies on the separate ban part. My only issue is that if we approach it balance-wise, even if UU Serp is "more powerful" than OU Serperior, then it would either get banned to UUBL or be healthy in UU despite being on-paper more powerful than its OU counterpart. Great points, though.
 
A resuspect of Kyurem where anybody who had already gotten qualifications can keep them sounds like a perfectly reasonable option to me and I would like to see it treated as a legitimate option by the council. Apologies for the oncoming wordy post, I am just trying to cover all my bases to try to ensure this is taken seriously.

There are two main issues to repeating suspects, the first is obviously that a repeat would end up wasting the time and energy a player had already put in to get their reqs and wasting people's time should be avoided. The second main issue would be that it could lead to the community's desires being undermined.
The first way the community could be undermined is that the council could force a specific outcome by repeating suspects until a specific outcome is achieved. This is theoretically an issue as there is no objective system for determining how a suspect other than by council discretion but with how Finch has been behaving as a tier leader I do not believe there is any reasonable risk of this, especially in this specific case.
The second way it is possible is that repeat suspects could end up changing an outcome from how the community may actually want it because players who have not gotten the outcome they wished for may be more willing to invest more of their time and energy getting reqs again than those who had already gotten an outcome they wished for, potentially leading to a less popular decision eventually coming out on top.

It is likely for such reason that it could inadvertantly undermine what the community actually wants (on top of having to get reqs again being a drag) that a third conventional suspect of Kyurem is not likely to be considered immediately.

Allowing reqs to be carried over from the last Kyurem suspect would avoid these issues as those with reqs would only need to invest any more of their time in the blind voting process (which is minor.) Additionally, at 59%, pro-ban is still the majority and could very well be what we say is what the community wants. Qualifications can also be carried over unlike usual as the meta is functionally the same as when everybody had gotten their reqs.

Why should a resuspect be considered to begin with? There are three main reasons.

The first is that among those banned for voter fraud are skilled players who did not need to commit fraud in order to achieve reqs and therefore did it out of convenience. Had that convenience not existed, are we certain that at least 2 of those skilled players wouldn't have gotten reqs leading to the legitimate ban of Kyurem?

The second is that now that everyone has had time to engage with a Kyurem-less meta, everybody should now be more informed about their decision. This is objectively a good thing. The only reason why doing things like this to allow for more informed votes is not done is because it requires a deal of time and effort to be invested where the returns may not necessarily be worth the investment - especially as players may not genuinely engage with a temporary meta unlike how players now have had to genuinely engage with a Kyurem-less meta. However, since that investment has already been made regardless, I think it would be a good thing to take advantage of it to allow for a more informed tiering decision to be made.

The third is in terms of tiering direction. A quick resuspect that results in a Kyurem ban would put us back on track to original plans without having to mull over what direction to take (though while writing this everyone already seems to be rallying behind a tera blast suspect) while if it results in a no ban then we could probably put the matter of Kyurem to rest permenantly, because in my opinion, at 59% pro-ban along with such a controversial voting situation, we'd probably end up looking at a 3rd Kyurem suspect in a couple of months which I think would be the worst fucking timeline. Or of course Kyurem could settle in and be completely balanced and no 3rd suspect occurs. Depends on what you think will happen.

Additionally, now with the hindsight that the margins are razor thin, you may find more players willing to engage with the tiering process now knowing that their vote will in all likely matter a lot which I think is good because I believe increased community participation is a good thing (perhaps to the dismay of those who think the less players should be allowed to have a say.)

Some have also suggested just redoing the Kyurem votes with just those already qualified which I think is also fine, it would be less 'accurate' then a resuspect but a lot quicker and much less effort. If a resuspect were to be done I think it would be good for it to be shorter and more trimmed down than usual and be treated as an extension of the last suspect to just moves things along.

Regardless, I am not saying a resuspect should be the course of action to be taken. Whichever direction the tier should go, it'll be 1-2 weeks of waiting for everyone to collect their thoughts to figure out. I am just making this post to put the option of a resuspect on the table as I think it could very well be a legitimate course of action.

------
In regards to Tera Blast, I personally don't think we should be meddling with a generational mechanic like this and I think you either take it or leave it in it's entirety. I don't see a TB ban being so consequential for me to bend my thoughts on generational mechanics.

Unrelated to everything else but I've been trying to do an RMT and between being picky about replays, forgetting to save them or changing the team too much I'm having trouble stocking up on replays for it...
 
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