Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Magcargo said:
Players have been harsh on it since Volcarona was quickbanned. The issue was that "general" support for the move being banned was lower then since players either didn't either see Tera Blast as broken or wanted Tera as whole axed. Pretty much any sweeper can run Tera Blast, with a few more commonly running it like Dragonite, Kingambit, and Iron Moth to get past a few of their checks, and it isn't as comparable to general coverage moves because you at least have a general idea of what Dragonite / Kingambit / Kyurem will typically run without TB (i.e. Kyurem will run Ice + Dragon Coverage on DD physical Loaded dice sets, making most steels reliable into it, Kingambit will usually only run Low Kick + Dark STAB + Iron Head, etc.). Volcarona does bring tangible benefits to the metagame as well with its great MU into Darkrai, Kyurem, Zamazenta, etc (although I believe these guys to be--fine-- without Volcarona).

TB is more unhealthy in a MU fishing sense since pretty much anything can run a TB variant to snipe something specific, whether it be Excadrill running TB Electric for Skarm, Tyranitar running DD TB Flying for Great Tusk, etc. A lot of other Tera Types on these Pokemon don't give the Pokemon the same MU fishing capbilities or have more notable drawbacks.

Admittingly some healthy users / low tier Pokemon will be caught in the crossfire if TB is banned like CB Dragapult, so a bit of a wider discussion may still be needed, but discussion on this topic has been a thing for a while.
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honestly I think banning tera blast would bring the power level down a peg too which I think the meta could really use, plus we can reintroduce a few mons too that would be more healthy without blast probably. Plus it would make it easier to tell what is a problem and what is not.

Lately people have warmed up to tera blast going so I think it should probably be tested

ShizuOsaka said:
I don't think so.

Without tera blast, Volcarona still does what it is determined to do (aka clicking Quiver Dance). Back in gen 8, we even saw something like Safeguard Roost Quiver Dance, even in a metagame that Heatran isn't bad.

But now, even without tera blast, it still has tera to flip up a lot of matchups that are supposed to check it. On top of that, its movepool is diverse enough to tackle with most defensive checks for it in the tier.

So yeah, tera blast bad, but banning it won't give back your moth.
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It makes it way easier to punish regardless, so saying it wouldn’t come back is a bit of a stretch. Also moltres sits on volc without tera blast rock supposedly so potentially it could come back… I would say test with caution though.
 
I agree that making our way towards a Tera Blast ban should at least alleviate things a little. Kyurem’s Dragon Dance sets can’t use Tera Blast Electric to cheese through Moltres or Dondozo? Great, removes an element of unpredictability from that Pokémon’s sets. Kingambit can’t get Fairy or Flying STAB on top of its brand new Fairy or Flying typing to annihilate its “checks and counters”? Nice, definitely helps. Dragapult can’t just suddenly turn into a nuke on a whim anymore? Sure, would rather not deal with the random Tera Ghost sweeps. We’re able to let Volcarona back in to check Kyurem, Gambit, Zama and Valiant without it being as cheesy as it was before? Cool, happy to have that back without the worst broken aspect it had.

I would personally prefer if Tera as a whole were banned, but I know the verdict on that right now so anything to make the mechanic less egregious while it’s still here would be nice really.
 
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To throw my small hat into the ring, I like, twenty third, the sentiment that Tera Blast is good to look at. It would be a general way to tweak the power level and unpredictability of the tier to be more manageable. Don't really care about the timeline of things but I fail to see the use of doomposting any suspect. Worst case scenario, things stay the same after two weeks of more artificial ladder activity. If it gives a good time and space to discuss the move and it's place in the meta, I see no reason to write a suspect off just because it could fail.
 
If tera blast gets banned (which I hope it does) regieleki would be awesome for the metagame.

The eleki can compete with other HO leads for screens with light clay, or run a hdb spinner set to add more hazard removal options into the builder. Modest can 2HKO bulky nastyplot ghold to stop if from spinblocking, and timid 2HKOs with thunderbolt any non bulky ghold
Explosion can work in both sets as a last resort or to keep momentum, and tera ghost could be run to serve as an immediate spinblocker itself and to serve as a last anser to +2dnite, since it stills outspeeds with timid and lives 1 +2 firepunch with some investment (Also 2hkos dnite if it tera normals). It can also outspeed deo-s and thunderbolt, killing after a life orb prock.

Imagine wanting to build a team that uses tinkaton and gliscor to set hazards and puts pressure that way. Instead of running boots-spam like you would on this metagame, you can add the eleki to rolecompress as your speedcontrol and removal.

It would be a really cool pokemon to have back, since it can't do anything to the 'scor and ground type friends without TB. Would be cooler in a meta without kyurem because I'm sure these two will not be paired together (clueless) but history is history, and looking forwards this theoretical ban could introduce fun options.

The moth is NOT coming back however even without the blast. Defensive tera + bulky qd + morning sun is absolutely toxic. "Oh you don't have somthing that can hit (Insert one of 4 tera's here) super-effectively on the physical side? Gg" And without gouging or any other fire quad resist even machupfishing sets like qd morning sun will-o flamethrower would become unbearable if you don't have a specific answer, IMO
 
LucaHNO said:
If tera blast gets banned (which I hope it does) regieleki would be awesome for the metagame.

The eleki can compete with other HO leads for screens with light clay, or run a hdb spinner set to add more hazard removal options into the builder. Modest can 2HKO bulky nastyplot ghold to stop if from spinblocking, and timid 2HKOs with thunderbolt any non bulky ghold
Explosion can work in both sets as a last resort or to keep momentum, and tera ghost could be run to serve as an immediate spinblocker itself and to serve as a last anser to +2dnite, since it stills outspeeds with timid and lives 1 +2 firepunch with some investment (Also 2hkos dnite if it tera normals). It can also outspeed deo-s and thunderbolt, killing after a life orb prock.

Imagine wanting to build a team that uses tinkaton and gliscor to set hazards and puts pressure that way. Instead of running boots-spam like you would on this metagame, you can add the eleki to rolecompress as your speedcontrol and removal.

It would be a really cool pokemon to have back, since it can't do anything to the 'scor and ground type friends without TB. Would be cooler in a meta without kyurem because I'm sure these two will not be paired together (clueless) but history is history, and looking forwards this theoretical ban could introduce fun options.

The moth is NOT coming back however even without the blast. Defensive tera + bulky qd + morning sun is absolutely toxic. "Oh you don't have somthing that can hit (Insert one of 4 tera's here) super-effectively on the physical side? Gg" And without gouging or any other fire quad resist even machupfishing sets like qd morning sun will-o flamethrower would become unbearable if you don't have a specific answer, IMO
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Eh, I wouldn't say it's that awesome.

Theoretically, it can 2HKO Ghold that attempts spinblocking, but Ghold isn't the only thing in the format that punishes Rapid Spin. Tinkaton can take a spin, but in return, steals the Heavy Duty Boots and then sets up hazards again. Same with any other ground mon in the tier, because Eleki will simply become a momentum sink against them to set hazards up again.

Regieleki also has a hard time switching into anything, because of that paper thin bulk. The only slow pivot in the tier we have right now is Glowking, but that also means you have a common weakness against ground type buds.
 
I think without tera blast, knowing it's walled by heatran, skeliderge, moltres- (good mons for the tier to see more of) moth would most often run mono attack and embrace it's bulky utility. I doubt it often runs 3 attacks and even so looking at the OU list many manage it much better. It's definitely not outside the realm of possibility to come back.

But I still strongly feel we should not discuss moth or stored power or espartha at all. It muddies the waters. Tera blast ban is desirable on its own to reduce match up fishing and lower the offensive pressure. Regieleki does of course come back, useful or not. Can we maintain that as a short term goal? Overwhelming support at the moment let's keep focus. No one bring up the dolphin and derail for 3 pages for the love of God.

Bro below is a menace
 
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In an attempt to derail the thread: is it finally time to implement the Kokoloko Method? I say this because there doesn’t seem to be a general consensus of what needs to be done. With Tera Blast currently gaining the most momentum it still is a contentious option. So why not nuke the tier? It’s already in a bad state how much worst can it get?
 
June Heat said:
In an attempt to derail the thread: is it finally time to implement the Kokoloko Method? I say this because there doesn’t seem to be a general consensus of what needs to be done. With Tera Blast currently gaining the most momentum it still is a contentious option. So why not nuke the tier? It’s already in a bad state how much worst can it get?
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Unlikely. Ou is held to a much higher standard than every other tier and is unlikely to be met without huge backlash

Either way I don't see much council members voice their opinion at all on what should be next it feels like it's all finch and maybe ausma a bit
 
Could I ask what the plan is so far to address the voter fraud, moving forward?

There isn’t any public information as to what happened, outside of the banned players and mentions that a single player distributed accounts that had already achieved voter requirements. That is extremely worrying, because that implies that other forms of voter abuse are likely even easier. Is there anyway to determine if, for instance if voting reqs could be achieved in 30 games, that whomever registered that account played those 30 games? One could just play 20-25 games, and ask a friend to finish their reqs for them.

An honor system is gonna have faults by design, because we expect people to act accordingly and not fuck it up, but how is this gonna be addressed? Attaching accounts to Smogon Fourms, as far as I understand it, has been considered infeasible because of the nature of Showdown, with Showdown intending to be a server a la Smogon Tours. IP tracking is on Showdown, but I understand also somewhat inexact with VPN’s and 4G/5G mobile internet creating scenarios wherein a single user could have multiple IP’s attached to their account. Moreover, while “smurfing” is discouraged in other circles, Showdown wholly embraces it - most users don’t play on their “main” and instead use accounts that are agnostic to any identity. Is is possible to still uphold that, while also establishing some form voter verification?

This feels like an extraordinarily messy situation, because as far as I can tell (and please do correct me) it doesn’t seem like there is any easy, catch-all solution to this. Voter ID isn’t an issue in a meritocracy, the idea of merit alone is argument for identification, but I don’t see the average Smogon voter as willing to provide documentation, report their IP, etc.
 
June Heat said:
In an attempt to derail the thread: is it finally time to implement the Kokoloko Method? I say this because there doesn’t seem to be a general consensus of what needs to be done. With Tera Blast currently gaining the most momentum it still is a contentious option. So why not nuke the tier? It’s already in a bad state how much worst can it get?
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If nobody can agree on one thing to get banned, we are not going to ban a plethora of things. It also is not in a bad state according to pretty much any metric you look at. This is not happening and would be backwards.
 
June Heat said:
In an attempt to derail the thread: is it finally time to implement the Kokoloko Method? I say this because there doesn’t seem to be a general consensus of what needs to be done. With Tera Blast currently gaining the most momentum it still is a contentious option. So why not nuke the tier? It’s already in a bad state how much worst can it get?
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No. Kokoloki is dead and buried at least until Gen 10.

The purpose, the sole purpose and only reason to utilize it, is to quickly bring stability to a very unstable metagame by nuking everything that might be a problem and then start testing. Nothing about current Gen 9 OU is unstable; there's a lot of mons that have significant minority support for testing, but other than Kyurem (who just survived and so won't be tested anytime soon), none of them save maybe Gliscor have any reasonable possibility of being removed via suspect, and tiering staff would descend from the heavens with the unban hammer if any were quickbanned.

It was given consideration for the first DLC release because we knew that was going to be a short-lived metagame, and so there literally wasn't time to conduct normal suspect tests and stabilize the tier. It'll be given consideration again in Gen 10 for Home and DLC1 for the same reason. It'll be given consideration in lower tiers early on when they can receive a dozen new mons all at once. It's not going to be seriously considered when we have a year, possibly two, before Gen 10 arrives and the tier is currently stable.

RE: Volcarona, it was removed specifically because of Tera Blast, and as such would drop back to OU were the move banned. A subsequent suspect and banning is possible, but it's not staying Ubers.

Finchinator

Metagame Post in thread 'SV OU Metagame Discussion v4'

I do not find Tera Blast to be broken in the current metagame, but I do think a larger argument exists when you factor history into your internal calculus on the matter. Espathra, Regieleki, and Volcarona were all banned due to the move while Kingambit, Gouging Fire, and Kyurem remain in tiering talks currently with some (not a ton) usage of it.

I do not view Tera Blast as a priority over Gouging Fire and I probably do not view it as my number two either, but I am willing to defer to other council members and the survey, which will be targeting those who qualified for OLT and coming out...
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Here's Finch stating that Tera Blast is why Volcarona was banned, and if you remove the reason why something is banned, then that something gets unbanned, with Houndstone as a recent example.
 
The idea that Espathra would be balanced without Tera Blast is about five bridges too far in my opinion. Tera Blast was definitely part of what made it broken but even Tera Fairy + Dazzling Gleam sets were incredibly difficult for a lot of teams to handle and honestly Speed Boost + Stored Power is just a combination from hell in general. I do not wish to see that abomination retested any time soon regardless of whether or not Tera Blast gets axed.

Even something like Volcarona isn't really comparable to Houndstone. I personally agree that Tera Blast broke Volcarona but there's no denying Volcarona is an incredibly strong threat even without it and can apply plenty of pressure with the rest of its natural movepool, while Houndstone is NU garbage without Last Respects and literally 0 people actually thought Houndstone was the problem, not the move. It was initially banned on a policy basis alone.
 
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Finchinator said:
ok and i am literally the person you quoted providing context
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I am aware, and what I quoted literally doesn't say what you just said it does. You didn't say "Tera Blast contributed to Espathra's ban", you said "Espathra was banned due to Tera Blast". Do you not see how those statements differ?

Finchinator said:
i said nothing about an espathra retest and you trying to make something out of nothing is silly.
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I also never said "Finch wants to retest Espathra", but like I literally just fucking said if Espathra was banned due to Tera Blast (as you DID say...) then it's logical to infer that Espathra would not have been banned if not for Tera Blast so I'm not sure why you're acting like I pulled this out of nothing. I now assume that's not what you meant but with all due respect, you can fault your own poor phrasing for the initial misunderstanding.

No need to be so defensive, by the way. Not everything is a personal attack on you.
 
Divine Retribution said:
I am aware, and what I quoted literally doesn't say what you just said it does. You didn't say "Tera Blast contributed to Espathra's ban", you said "Espathra was banned due to Tera Blast". Do you not see how those statements differ?
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Yes -- it was misleading. I should have worded it better, but I have made three thousand posts+ this generation (most on phone, including that one) and you can also say that, while different, the difference in statements is harmless and metagame context makes it clear enough. Sorry I made the wording error in this post, but this is a bit silly to do when people can just ask me to clarify rather than saying
Divine Retribution said:
I dunno what Finch was smoking on that particular day
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Yes, I am being defensive/sensitive, but this whole week has been one thing after another, so I think just about any human in my spot would be right now... This is not worth the useful life of an argument when we are on the same page anyway. You clearly just want the right information out there and I respect that, but it was a bit rude
 
Aight Kyurem being back because of a trollvote sucks but we can’t do much from now so let’s move on, if a Kyurem resuspect is unlikely we’ll have to wait then but why did we delay Gliscor suspect initially planed on tomorrow ? Because of the recent bans that happened yesterday or because Kyurem is back ?

On another note, I didn’t post in the original Kyurem suspect thread but I wanted to respond to people saying Kyurem adds more diversity and prevent zapkinglu meta. That’s just being biased by the way, Kyurem gatekeeps a lot of mons from being viable, during the short Kyurem-ban meta, we indeed seen a drastic raise of waterpon brokenness, notably with some koff/play-rough - U-Turn set, and a rise of SD Gliscor stuffs but we also saw a lot of mons being reintroduced from logical Zapdos to some Garchomp - Pecharunt gaming and kommo-o rise in tournaments while making every playstyles viable and I personally enjoyed more that short meta game. Teambuilding is once again very hard now, SubTect is of course a pain to face and makes the tier even less enjoyable. DD stuffs still 6zing MUs on preview.

That’s about it, I’m too lazy to write much more about Kyurem, I’ll probably write again to share thoughts on the current tier shifting with Kyurem back, at least we perfectly see the consequences of a Kyurem action. My ideal view atm was to ban Gliscor + Kyurem and then see if Bolt would become uncheckable or not but w/e ig
 
FFK said:
why did we delay Gliscor suspect initially planed on tomorrow ?
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My guess is Gliscor will still be suspected. I do not think rushing it (may just be a few days or a week) when we are discussing a lot of security matters, the shifting back tier, and even implementing new suspect reqs/thread protocol is a good idea though. Plus, I am fucking burnt out if you want me to be honest; this week is an absolute crazy time LOL but yea, I do think Gliscor may still be suspected
 
People who want to suspect Gliscor are just crazy, you have no idea what kind of shit this tier will become if Gliscor gets banned (It's never going to happen, so first of all it's a waste of time)
Instead of Tera Blast suspect and Volcarona unban, which will give you more opportunities to build, you want to ban Gliscor and hit the stall/balance teams, and after that you will ask to Waterpon/Rbolt/Hamurott/other shit suspect
 
Unstoppable1 said:
People who want to suspect Gliscor are just crazy, you have no idea what kind of shit this tier will become if Gliscor gets banned (It's never going to happen, so first of all it's a waste of time)
Instead of Tera Blast suspect and Volcarona unban, which will give you more opportunities to build, you want to ban Gliscor and hit the stall/balance teams, and after that you will ask to Waterpon/Rbolt/Hamurott/other shit suspect
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Ah yes, what kind of "shit tier" would it be after it's banned?
Idk, the tier that is like... gen 8 OU?
 
Unstoppable1 said:
People who want to suspect Gliscor are just crazy, you have no idea what kind of shit this tier will become if Gliscor gets banned (It's never going to happen, so first of all it's a waste of time)
Instead of Tera Blast suspect and Volcarona unban, which will give you more opportunities to build, you want to ban Gliscor and hit the stall/balance teams, and after that you will ask to Waterpon/Rbolt/Hamurott/other shit suspect
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TO my knowledge what happens next is none of our concern.... is gliscor broken now? then we can boot it out. I dont know whether or not tiers actually follow through this (i know i talked to some uu council a few days ago about mons who are beneficial for the tier but broken potentially being left in the tier for the sake of not worrying about the aftermath)

If gliscor is indeed unhealthy we can just worry about the aftermath later... we arent gonna get anything done because any ban at this point is gonna be met with "what happens next" "kyurem is banned so zap king lu rise and burn everyone down" "kingambit is a neccessary evil so it should be left in the tier" "gliscor isnt that broken, its gholdengo!"
 
Unstoppable1 said:
People who want to suspect Gliscor are just crazy, you have no idea what kind of shit this tier will become if Gliscor gets banned (It's never going to happen, so first of all it's a waste of time)
Instead of Tera Blast suspect and Volcarona unban, which will give you more opportunities to build, you want to ban Gliscor and hit the stall/balance teams, and after that you will ask to Waterpon/Rbolt/Hamurott/other shit suspect
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Just remembering you waterpon beats Gliscor in most scenarios (ofc mons is mons but Gliscor doesn’t help checking waterpon and all) and it hits mostly stalls rather than balance anyways, btw Gliscor sd koff breaks stall. Hamurott won’t get better after a Gliscor ban as well, the thing with Gliscor is, while it’s not insanely broken, it just adds nothing the tier but cancer, it’s basically unkillable, doesn’t add any competitiveness nor enjoyment so what, and a Tera blast suspect + volc unban can be done without Gliscor
 
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