Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

When dealing with generational mechanics/gimmicks, I think we should treat it as a whole. Tera Blast is not just some random move like Last Respects that 2 pokemon learn. It is as much of the generational gimmick as Terastalization. One cannot exist without the other. Just because it adds too much coverage to strong pokemon, that doesn't mean we should ban it, it is like Hidden Power but stronger. Much stronger, thanks to its higher base power and tera stab, of course. We can talk about if Terastalizaton+Tera is too abusive of a mechanic, too distorting, and I would rather do a Terastalization suspect test rather than just Tera Blast. And if it's too late for Tera, it is also too late for Blast.

Regarding the Gliscor suspect test, with Kyurem bringing it in check, it is not that urgent and can wait. Finding ways to verify the votes and making sure the voting is secure is much more urgent than suspecting anything, and any future suspect test should be done with a more secure voting.
 
Just remembering you waterpon beats Gliscor in most scenarios (ofc mons is mons but Gliscor doesn’t help checking waterpon and all) and it hits mostly stalls rather than balance anyways, btw Gliscor sd koff breaks stall. Hamurott won’t get better after a Gliscor ban as well, the thing with Gliscor is, while it’s not insanely broken, it just adds nothing the tier but cancer, it’s basically unkillable, doesn’t add any competitiveness nor enjoyment so what, and a Tera blast suspect + volc unban can be done without Gliscor
It doesn`t matter, im talking about teambuilding
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Offense/HO will become stronger and more popular with the weakening of other structures, thats what i meant
 
I think that this incident is going to dramatically change not only the way suspects reqs are checked (and I surely think any tournament game also should) but also the credibility of this tier / community unfortunetly.

It sucks, but I think the only way we can move on from here is requiring an IP check and that suspects reqs have to be done without VPNs to ensure no one's cheating. We can't do anything about backseating (which is perfectly possible btw) but it would at least remove the easiest way to cheat.
The integrity of the bans/not bans from the tier could be damaged from this but this does not have anything to do with any of the OU/PS/Smogon staff. Shoutouts to all of them for their amazing work btw. And I hope they can rest a bit after discovering this massive problem.

About the player that voted other thing "for the memes", I would not elaborate but like XDD okay bro pretty funny I guess. And for the players that cheated, I'm hoping they get at least a lifetime ban to participate in any suspect tests again, I don't really mind about tournaments but yeah, if the two thread stuff wasn't already received with problems this makes it even worse imo. Which is sad because I don't think the idea was bad or anything but rather that no matter what OU council chose, some people would complain (which is something they've struggled with all the generation, sadly).

As for the tier, I'm gonna be completely honest and I don't usually get this "emotional" but like, this fucking sucks. We were gonna get a Gliscor suspect on Monday that could perhaps lead to which is in my opinion the last possible ban to a mon that was making the tier actively worse (I would also add Kingambit to that tier, but that fight is lost) and instead of that we're making a step back.

Tera Blast ban would at least make so Regieleki and Volc can return, but to be honest I don't even know if that would be healthy or not, tbh I just think it's the most possible thing to change and people are trying to do it in order to see some change. I think that I'm gonna stop playing this gen seriously at least for some months and focus on other tiers/gens because, it seems like a never ending hole of problems. Tera is the main one and has always been tbh, not Terablast.

I think that Daddy Buzzwole was cooking with the idea of dropping Ubers to the tier before the gen ended tho /jk
 
It doesn`t matter, im talking about teambuilding
View attachment 678122
Offense/HO will become stronger and more popular with the weakening of other structures, thats what i meant
That's just a strawman fallacy.

Gliscor isn't even as much of a problem against HO because they can put up more pressure on Gliscor than it can heal off, and it doesn't have the opportunity to click Sword Dance either. In fact, Gliscor can be fit into HO, because it actually has a good speed tier, a good typing and you guess what? Sword Dance.

The structure that struggles against it the most is actually more balance playstyles + stall. Gliscor can set up a lot of spikes, as well as force progress with Knock Off / Toxic easily, while being almost unkillable unless you can outspeed and deal at min 70% damage against it in a turn (or run niche things like Glowking with Ice Beam, but good luck taking a Knock to remove item or Earthquake to almost KO it). Against stall? Have you ever seen two Gliscors looking at each other? Fun interactive gameplay lol.
 
Since a Gliscor suspect still seems likely, even with Kyurem in the tier, perhaps we should prepare to talk about it more. It wouldn't be my choice, personally, but hey. I want to talk counterplay since the SD sets and more passive sets have somewhat different counterplay. It seems like it's the SD sets that more people who have a problem with Gliscor take issue with, right?

What are some good counterplay options for the SD sets?

I'll start off with a few of my own to get the ball rolling. Dozo, ID Corv, and maybe Sinstcha (if no Knock Off) can all be good into SD Scor.
 
Also I wonder, why do y’all even bother with the next suspect anyway?
Given the latest suspect test with the “vote for fun” and voter fraud, I doubt any further suspect test will have any validity at all.
At this point, don’t bother asking for public opinion. Just ask the tournament players, and tell them to pick the next thing to ban or not. No need to suspect test when you have a good number of elite players agreeing on things, right?
Just keep it the way it is. Kyurem is fine. Gliscor is fine. Waterpon is fine. Tera and Tera Blast? Couldn’t have asked for a better mechanic!
 
Ok gang. This thread is getting out of line fast, with FAR too many unhelpful, pessimistic posts about the future of the metagame without really contributing anything of merit to the discussion. Hopefully, my little rant here fixes that!

I'm gonna be talking about something I find important - the future of SVOU. I don’t think Kyu’s unban is the end of the world, I in fact believe the resulting meta would be much worse with a Kyurem ban in place, but what I know is we DO have to act on the future if we want to keep Kyu less borderline. IMO Scor is definitely not broken in a tier with kyu, krai, and pon as common, threatening breakers and there being so much counterplay to its shenanigans - Sub, Taunt, Encore, and more, and I really don't see a world where a scor ban improves the meta whatsoever. There is one thing on my mind though, one that as many have pointed out and many have disagreed with (???):

It is time to ban tera blast.

A preface: this post will revolve around example gameplay, to illustrate why tera blast is unhealthy rather than outright broken. While these are specific examples on specific mons on specific teams, I hope you'll find that SIMILAR, not necessarily exactly the same situations, appear a lot more often than some seem to think.

Imagine two opposing teams, composed as such.

1728848614810.png


Note: this is me against an alt. The team comps are far from perfect, but I wanted to display standard offense with a couple possible tera blast users vs standard balance.

===========================================================================================

I.
Tera Blast indirectly enables sweepers, and changes how certain matchups are played in an unhealthy manner.

Undoubtedly at some point of this game, :landorus-therian: will be on the field against an opposing :gliscor:. In a situation without Tera Blast, :gliscor:would always be safe to click Knock Off and force some sort of progress. This should always be a positive position for the :gliscor: user.

It's also worth noting aside from fishing for scald burns, Scor is very much the only cm or sd :iron-valiant: answer on this team. Keeping :gliscor: around for this matchup is important, and in this mu, preserving :gliscor:is easy to do.

However, in a world where :landorus-therian: is free to run Tera Blast Ice (and somewhat often does!) this becomes much more dependent on random, unpredictable chance. If the :gliscor: user suspects this is the case, protecting is a reasonable play - but even then, :landorus-therian: can either just get free rocks up or click taunt turn one to scout. And then things get worse - If the :gliscor: user stays in another turn and gets Tera Blasted, the balance guy more than likely just immediately loses whenever :iron-valiant: gets a good entry point. If the :gliscor: user switches out to Alo predicting Tera Blast, and :landorus-therian: doesn't have it, Alo is likely getting U-turned on, and at best the offense player gains momentum out of what should have been a negative position from them, and fires off a strong attack from specs or boots :kyurem:, or gets a sub up if it's subtect. At worst for the balance player, :kyurem: is Sub DD, which leads me to my next point.

II. Tera Blast directly enables sweepers, changing their poor matchups and checks in an unpredictable manner.

Without Tera Blast, normally Tera Water :skarmory: would be an excellent check to handle SubDD :kyurem:. (Worth noting that while Mixed DD :kyurem: is more of a problem, Tera Steel Spdef :alomomola: serves as a much more consistent check to that, and Air Balloon :kingambit: as well.) However, if :kyurem: is running the dreaded Tera Blast Electric, the sole answer (outside of Encore :ogerpon: if you predict every turn right and commit Tera) is immediately fried, and you run away with the game. Specific Tera Blast types on setup sweepers like Dragon Dance :kyurem: can collectively invalidate nigh every form of counterplay, even if not all at once, which inherently encourages unhealthy, matchup-fishing teambuilding. IN these ways, Tera Blast can also be tailored to support other mons on your team in more ways than one, whether it be luring an otherwise safe switchin or just outright hammering through a check to your sweeper.

III. Tera Blast adds very little to the tier, and none of it is necessary. The tier would not remotely destabilize if Tera Blast were to be banned.

:kingambit: is a mon many consider unhealthy, and while I may be inclined to agree, it would very certainly destabilize the tier if it were to be banned and more than likely cause a waterfall of other bans. Tera Blast is very much not the same. If Tera Blast were to be banned, the viability of certain mons would decrease slightly (:enamorus:, :iron-moth:, :kyurem:), :serperior: would fall off (It lowkey already has), and Band :dragapult: would return to fraudulence. No common mons would completely vanish from the tier however, and the tier would be more or less the same, just in a significantly more healthy environment, as the most problematic :kyurem: set (Dragon Dance Tera Blast) would be illegal.

IV. Yes, the "Free Volcarona" suspect. Y'all may mock it all you like, but it would only bring good things to the tier.

No shot :volcarona: is broken without Tera Blast. Sure, it may add one more pseudo-threat to the tier, but while simultaneously relieving the tier of a top notch threat I don't see that as a problem. Subtect and MixDD :kyurem: are immediately crippled by the moth, and it also gives bulkier builds a good glue mon that checks special spam offense. :volcarona: is also definitely not broken without tera blast, as :slowking-galar:on nearly every playstyle; :dragonite:and :primarina: on offense; :ting-lu:, :moltres:, and :alomomola: on balance; and :clodsire: and :blissey: on fatter builds all offer varying degrees of checks, and the various fires and dragons of the tier no longer fear tb ground or dragon. The fearmongering about moth being broken without tera blast is crazy, and it would only improve the meta. Oh yeah and we get :regieleki:, which is another niche hazard remover that kinda removes on dengo, a pivot, an rkiller, and speed control, which is kinda neat.

All in all, I firmly believe Tera Blast should be our next target for improving the state of the metagame, and see few reasons not to ban it. Hope this post restores peace and productive discussion to the OU discussion thread!

edit: holy shit not even a minute later we get another unhelpful complaint. chat this cannot be real
 
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Also I wonder, why do y’all even bother with the next suspect anyway?
Given the latest suspect test with the “vote for fun” and voter fraud, I doubt any further suspect test will have any validity at all.
At this point, don’t bother asking for public opinion. Just ask the tournament players, and tell them to pick the next thing to ban or not. No need to suspect test when you have a good number of elite players agreeing on things, right?
Just keep it the way it is. Kyurem is fine. Gliscor is fine. Waterpon is fine. Tera and Tera Blast? Couldn’t have asked for a better mechanic!
Considering a bulk of the people caught cheating were tournament players I don't think I'd fully trust this minority group to solely decide the fate of the tier. Not only that, but tournament play is completely different from laddering. Tourney only players have a skewed perspective of the game that doesn't accurately reflect the experiences of your average player. On top of all that they're human and prone to mistakes and bad thinking just like the rest of us. You need at least some competent people who actively play the ladder, and not necessarily play tournament games, voice their opinion on the matter at hand to have that ladder experience present.
 
How are you going to tout mathematical incorrectness while literally failing to make a simple calculation? The vote was 74-51. If that "troll vote" user switched their vote from "Do Not Ban" to "Ban", the vote would be 75-50. 75/125, or 3/5 simplified, is quite literally EXACTLY 60%, the amount needed for a supermajority. Regardless of whether you think the unban was good or not, it's the truth that a singular vote flip would have caused Kyurem to be banned.
I should have clarified that I was using 75/126 as there was still one guy left to vote. What I really meant to say was, "If the 'troll vote' was changed to Ban, this still wouldn't be enough to ban it because there's still one guy's vote left that was never entered". But this whole argument is kind of pointless anyways, for several reasons.
Just remembering you waterpon beats Gliscor in most scenarios (ofc mons is mons but Gliscor doesn’t help checking waterpon and all) and it hits mostly stalls rather than balance anyways, btw Gliscor sd koff breaks stall. Hamurott won’t get better after a Gliscor ban as well, the thing with Gliscor is, while it’s not insanely broken, it just adds nothing the tier but cancer, it’s basically unkillable, doesn’t add any competitiveness nor enjoyment so what, and a Tera blast suspect + volc unban can be done without Gliscor
Waterpon is literally the only thing that could hypothetically beat every Gliscor set. Superpower (which isn't even commonly run) hits Tera Normal, Power Whip/Horn Leech hits Tera Water, Knock Off hits the rare Tera Ghost, and Ivy Cudgel hits it before it Teras. Samurott can take on Tera Normal sets with Sacred Sword (again, which isn't commonly run) and Tera Ghost with Ceaseless Edge but gets hard walled by Tera Water unless you get multiple Razor Shell defense drops back to back, which at best would only force the scorpion out temporarily. Even then, Gliscor could adapt to Waterpon by just running something else like Tera Poison Poison Jab or Tera Fairy.
 
Also I wonder, why do y’all even bother with the next suspect anyway?
Given the latest suspect test with the “vote for fun” and voter fraud, I doubt any further suspect test will have any validity at all.
At this point, don’t bother asking for public opinion. Just ask the tournament players, and tell them to pick the next thing to ban or not. No need to suspect test when you have a good number of elite players agreeing on things, right?
Ridiculous take when

a: Security measures are being increased
b: Every fraudulent account was found and consequently banned
c: OU Mods pursued getting an accurate suspect result

The entire point of suspect tests is that YOU can get reqs, and that you SHOULD try to get reqs if you care about the tier. It's not about leaving it all to the top players
 
Also I wonder, why do y’all even bother with the next suspect anyway?
Given the latest suspect test with the “vote for fun” and voter fraud, I doubt any further suspect test will have any validity at all.
At this point, don’t bother asking for public opinion. Just ask the tournament players, and tell them to pick the next thing to ban or not. No need to suspect test when you have a good number of elite players agreeing on things, right?
Just keep it the way it is. Kyurem is fine. Gliscor is fine. Waterpon is fine. Tera and Tera Blast? Couldn’t have asked for a better mechanic!
Because the other people who voted by climbing ladder legitimately (some for the first time as a big accomplishment) wants their voice heard? Because 10-15 people who decided to use their vote for a foolish gotcha or to cheat doesn't represent the playerbase that wants fair and equitable tiering?
I understand you don't like some of the tiering decisions made, but the thread doesn't need your defeatist, rude, and condescending attitude. Either try posting in good faith like others are or lurk like me. It costs zero time and effort to not post or move onto something else.
 
Considering a bulk of the people caught cheating were tournament players I don't think I'd fully trust this minority group to solely decide the fate of the tier. Not only that, but tournament play is completely different from laddering. Tourney only players have a skewed perspective of the game that doesn't accurately reflect the experiences of your average player. On top of all that they're human and prone to mistakes and bad thinking just like the rest of us. You need at least some competent people who actively play the ladder, and not necessarily play tournament games, voice their opinion on the matter at hand to have that ladder experience present.
There is a common theme of your posts complaining about how players who are the most active in the tier, playing at the highest level, are the most involved in decisions made about the tier. Smogon is a competitive format based around competing at the highest level and yes this is the most important thing, and the ladder supports that. The idea of "tournament players" as a separate group from "ladder players" is very funny because the ladder exists to practice for tournament play, the idea that "tournament players" only touch the game during tournament and never play outside of that context is just not reality, you cannot play in tournaments with no practice and guess what the people who top the ladder tend to also play in tournaments. Tournament players don't have a "skewed perspective," not only do they play on ladder all the time but the highest level play matters much more than random ladder experiences given that Smogon is a tournament based site. The showdown ladder is ancillary to that. Your posts all have this weird "us vs them" undertone that's just not helpful, not indicitave of reality, and overall just feels resentful.
 
> started playing the ladder again around kyurem suspect
> kyurem banned, I get too busy to play again
> i get to have time to play again, kyurem unbanned

cmon man.

in more serious business: is the current metagame the exact same as the pre-ban metagame? have there been any adaptations/discoveries you guys have found in the ban period that can be used rn?
 
Just remembering you waterpon beats Gliscor in most scenarios (ofc mons is mons but Gliscor doesn’t help checking waterpon and all) and it hits mostly stalls rather than balance anyways, btw Gliscor sd koff breaks stall. Hamurott won’t get better after a Gliscor ban as well, the thing with Gliscor is, while it’s not insanely broken, it just adds nothing the tier but cancer, it’s basically unkillable, doesn’t add any competitiveness nor enjoyment so what, and a Tera blast suspect + volc unban can be done without Gliscor
The idea of the backbone of 2 entire archetypes "adding nothing to the tier" is laughable, you are much better at this game than I and I freely admit that but this is example #1001 of "it adds nothing to the tier" being a faux-objective stand in for "I don't like what it adds to the tier" which is fine but just say that. This is your opinion, go to stallcord and say "gliscor adds no enjoyment to the tier" and see how that goes
 
Waterpon is literally the only thing that could hypothetically beat every Gliscor set. Superpower (which isn't even commonly run) hits Tera Normal, Power Whip/Horn Leech hits Tera Water, Knock Off hits the rare Tera Ghost, and Ivy Cudgel hits it before it Teras. Samurott can take on Tera Normal sets with Sacred Sword (again, which isn't commonly run) and Tera Ghost with Ceaseless Edge but gets hard walled by Tera Water unless you get multiple Razor Shell defense drops back to back, which at best would only force the scorpion out temporarily. Even then, Gliscor could adapt to Waterpon by just running something else like Tera Poison Poison Jab or Tera Fairy.
No it isn't. I literally just listed ID Corv as part of the counterplay post I made. You know, the one with the question that everyone seems to be ignoring for the doomer posts? Yeah, that one.

Anyways, this sort of demonstrates why I was hoping people would talk about counterplay more instead of throwing our hands up. It would be nice for everyone to be informed. Personally, I don't think Gliscor is half as bad as its reputation. There is too much hyperbole surrounding this mon.
 
No it isn't. I literally just listed ID Corv as part of the counterplay post I made. You know, the one with the question that everyone seems to be ignoring for the doomer posts? Yeah, that one.

Anyways, this sort of demonstrates why I was hoping people would talk about counterplay more instead of throwing our hands up. It would be nice for everyone to be informed. Personally, I don't think Gliscor is half as bad as its reputation. There is too much hyperbole surrounding this mon.
Not only this but forcing Tera as described by Seraphyde is very bad for Gliscor, losing spikes immunity on switch in as well as EQ and Tbolt/Volt Switch immunity is not a boon to Gliscor and if you've forced Tera with your gliscor counterplay then your gliscor counterplay has done its job
 
The idea of the backbone of 2 entire archetypes "adding nothing to the tier" is laughable, you are much better at this game than I and I freely admit that but this is example #1001 of "it adds nothing to the tier" being a faux-objective stand in for "I don't like what it adds to the tier" which is fine but just say that. This is your opinion, go to stallcord and say "gliscor adds no enjoyment to the tier" and see how that goes
Yes indeed, I’m still learning English so I have issues writing stuffs, my bad. Though, stallcord is not a great example… I still have other reasons to lean toward a Gliscor ban but wrote this post quickly
 
There is a common theme of your posts complaining about how players who are the most active in the tier, playing at the highest level, are the most involved in decisions made about the tier. Smogon is a competitive format based around competing at the highest level and yes this is the most important thing, and the ladder supports that. The idea of "tournament players" as a separate group from "ladder players" is very funny because the ladder exists to practice for tournament play, the idea that "tournament players" only touch the game during tournament and never play outside of that context is just not reality, you cannot play in tournaments with no practice and guess what the people who top the ladder tend to also play in tournaments. Tournament players don't have a "skewed perspective," not only do they play on ladder all the time but the highest level play matters much more than random ladder experiences given that Smogon is a tournament based site. The showdown ladder is ancillary to that. Your posts all have this weird "us vs them" undertone that's just not helpful, not indicitave of reality, and overall just feels resentful.
I have the distinct impression that you don't like me.

Look man, I don't know where you've been the past month, but I'm not the one trying to increase the barrier to entry for suspects or wanting to make sperate threads for "qualified players" and "unqualified." The "Us vs Them" mentality existed far before me posting on these forums, and I don't understand how you could take my stance of increasing the diversity of voices for a suspect is me coming off of "Us vs Them." Of course we should value tournament player's opinions, but we also shouldn't put them on a pedestal. There are plenty of players that don't do tournaments that are skilled enough at the game to make reqs and have an informed opinion. To exclude these people just because they don't have the time/energy/desire to do tournaments is creating the "Us vs Them" elitist environment that Smogon is often criticized/meme'd on for. So yeah, I don't think only Tourney players should be the sole demographic of people to decide everything regarding this game.

Also don't bother replying to me. Just do your HaHa emote for the post like you've done for all my posts that you've reacted to, since I think I've made this account honestly, and move on. I'm not going to engage any further with somebody that obviously doesn't care for me.
 
When dealing with generational mechanics/gimmicks, I think we should treat it as a whole. Tera Blast is not just some random move like Last Respects that 2 pokemon learn. It is as much of the generational gimmick as Terastalization. One cannot exist without the other. Just because it adds too much coverage to strong pokemon, that doesn't mean we should ban it, it is like Hidden Power but stronger. Much stronger, thanks to its higher base power and tera stab, of course. We can talk about if Terastalizaton+Tera is too abusive of a mechanic, too distorting, and I would rather do a Terastalization suspect test rather than just Tera Blast. And if it's too late for Tera, it is also too late for Blast.

Regarding the Gliscor suspect test, with Kyurem bringing it in check, it is not that urgent and can wait. Finding ways to verify the votes and making sure the voting is secure is much more urgent than suspecting anything, and any future suspect test should be done with a more secure voting.
I personally think tera blast should be suspected before gliscor due to the circumstances we find ourselves in

I think asking players which one of gliscor or tera blast to get suspected first via a survey is probably the right call in this case

I do believe the council will try to make the right decision in the end though
 
Eh, I wouldn't say it's that awesome.

Theoretically, it can 2HKO Ghold that attempts spinblocking, but Ghold isn't the only thing in the format that punishes Rapid Spin. Tinkaton can take a spin, but in return, steals the Heavy Duty Boots and then sets up hazards again. Same with any other ground mon in the tier, because Eleki will simply become a momentum sink against them to set hazards up again.

Regieleki also has a hard time switching into anything, because of that paper thin bulk. The only slow pivot in the tier we have right now is Glowking, but that also means you have a common weakness against ground type buds.
If glowking-kyurem is already a core I can see eleki fitting nicely, though I... probably did overstate it's viability quite a bit. I was thinking about the freedom a non-ground type spinner gave to teams who want to stack but can't accumulate more weaknesses. Still think it would add nice variety to the meta.

Espathra should be kept in jail until gen 15 powercreeps. We could ban both tera blast and stored power that the bird still would have no problem cheesing. I don't think it would be broken if speed boost was banned, but that would not only break tiering policy but would send blaziken to RU and make yanmega untiered just so espathra can rot in BL AT MOST with a sub cm lumina crash set
 
I have the distinct impression that you don't like me.

Look man, I don't know where you've been the past month, but I'm not the one trying to increase the barrier to entry for suspects or wanting to make sperate threads for "qualified players" and "unqualified." The "Us vs Them" mentality existed far before me posting on these forums, and I don't understand how you could take my stance of increasing the diversity of voices for a suspect is me coming off of "Us vs Them." Of course we should value tournament player's opinions, but we also shouldn't put them on a pedestal. There are plenty of players that don't do tournaments that are skilled enough at the game to make reqs and have an informed opinion. To exclude these people just because they don't have the time/energy/desire to do tournaments is creating the "Us vs Them" elitist environment that Smogon is often criticized/meme'd on for. So yeah, I don't think only Tourney players should be the sole demographic of people to decide everything regarding this game.

Also don't bother replying to me. Just do your HaHa emote for the post like you've done for all my posts that you've reacted to, since I think I've made this account honestly, and move on. I'm not going to engage any further with somebody that obviously doesn't care for me.
There is no "Us vs Them". This is a community that benefits from it's users playing the format.

This is a community, nothing's stopping you from playing in tournaments, nothing's stopping you from topping ladder.

If you bothered to inform yourself about the upcoming suspect threads, you'd also find out that they're not even restricting that thread to reqs obtainers + tournament players. Everyone is on an equal playing field, tournament players factually will have no advantage. Gaining reqs and voting in suspects has also... never been based on tournament play. I quite literally have no idea how you could possibly have this dichotomy installed.

Stop claiming the community is "elitist", suspects have always been free and open for all to gain reqs.

CRAkkxZoC4EhLMF0xrdwjjZVUWqwyZkfo4EF0jlsQKE.jpg
 
I should have clarified that I was using 75/126 as there was still one guy left to vote. What I really meant to say was, "If the 'troll vote' was changed to Ban, this still wouldn't be enough to ban it because there's still one guy's vote left that was never entered". But this whole argument is kind of pointless anyways, for several reasons.

Waterpon is literally the only thing that could hypothetically beat every Gliscor set. Superpower (which isn't even commonly run) hits Tera Normal, Power Whip/Horn Leech hits Tera Water, Knock Off hits the rare Tera Ghost, and Ivy Cudgel hits it before it Teras. Samurott can take on Tera Normal sets with Sacred Sword (again, which isn't commonly run) and Tera Ghost with Ceaseless Edge but gets hard walled by Tera Water unless you get multiple Razor Shell defense drops back to back, which at best would only force the scorpion out temporarily. Even then, Gliscor could adapt to Waterpon by just running something else like Tera Poison Poison Jab or Tera Fairy.
Waterpon is super annoying shit in general, his movepool is VERY broken, random Trailblaze/Horn Leech/Substitute/Encore in SD sets make it uncompetitive, change my mind but Waterpon deserves to be banned much more than Gliscor. Fucking water type is the strongest type in the game and i always like to play against Walking Wake in Sun or Waterpon in Rain, Choice Band Victini and Specs Lele are resting with their ridiculous damage
 
Maybe I'm intervening in the middle of some debate but I just want to express my sincere disappointment at the behaviour of these few French players who cheated during the suspect, despite being top players but unable to set an example. It's all the more regrettable as some of them are young players who have been rising in recent years and could have avoided such idiocy. I'm ashamed for my country, where competitive Pokémon has been booming for a few years now, we really could have avoided this.

In any case, even though I voted against banning Kyurem, if these votes have changed the result, I think the decision to unban Kyurem is the right one. Thank you guys for your efforts and I'm sorry it's come to this.
 
I have the distinct impression that you don't like me.

Look man, I don't know where you've been the past month, but I'm not the one trying to increase the barrier to entry for suspects or wanting to make sperate threads for "qualified players" and "unqualified." The "Us vs Them" mentality existed far before me posting on these forums, and I don't understand how you could take my stance of increasing the diversity of voices for a suspect is me coming off of "Us vs Them." Of course we should value tournament player's opinions, but we also shouldn't put them on a pedestal. There are plenty of players that don't do tournaments that are skilled enough at the game to make reqs and have an informed opinion. To exclude these people just because they don't have the time/energy/desire to do tournaments is creating the "Us vs Them" elitist environment that Smogon is often criticized/meme'd on for. So yeah, I don't think only Tourney players should be the sole demographic of people to decide everything regarding this game.

Also don't bother replying to me. Just do your HaHa emote for the post like you've done for all my posts that you've reacted to, since I think I've made this account honestly, and move on. I'm not going to engage any further with somebody that obviously doesn't care for me.
If anyone is putting anyone on a pedestal it is you, the only difference between us and these so-called tournament players is amount of practice; we are all peers on this site together and you are driving a wedge that does not need to exist. Just as you say there are plenty of people capable of getting reqs and these are the ones given said voice. If a player makes reqs as you say they are allowed to vote and would be able to post in the qualified thread, so I'm not sure what you mean about them being excluded.

If these hypothetical people who make reqs but are otherwise uninvolved are so skilled why aren't they competing in tournaments?

I am not in a place where I am yet skilled enough to obtain reqs but instead of eeyoreposting about elitism i just say "I'll get there eventually" there are no elites there are just more experienced and less experienced players and anyone is capable of improving. There is some value in the abstract comments made by those who did not get reqs, including my posts, but I simply am not as good at describing in battle interactions as SupaGmoney or others. Surely we can all notice the difference in detail in the Kyurem thread between badged and unbadged users, regardless of how you feel about the contents of the post. I do think in general "derailing" isn't as big a deal as described because it costs nothing to ignore an irrelevant post but I respect the desire to have a place where all the more informed more detailed posts are together devoid of "Bloodmoon isn't broken just use Bronzong" or "Kyurem has too many moves such as Ice Shard and Freeze Shock and V-Create and the ever present Shadow Ball" and devoid of DaddyBuzzwole repeating "it's totally broken ban it you are crazy if you disagree" with no substance.

I have no problem with you as a person but all your posts are just excessively negative and woe-is-me
 
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but I respect the desire to have a place where all the more informed more detailed posts are together devoid of "Bloodmoon isn't broken just use Bronzong" or "Kyurem has too many moves such as Ice Shard and Freeze Shock and V-Create and the ever present Shadow Ball" and devoid of DaddyBuzzwole repeating "it's totally broken ban it you are crazy if you disagree" with no substance.
the "just use bronzong" guy got reqs, he would've been allowed in the qualified thread. the existence of a thread for people who get reqs doesn't filter out people with profound misunderstandings about tiering and balance. and it's been pointed out multiple times that quite a bit of the low-quality discussion and arguing was coming from established players. what are you going to suggest when the "more informed more detailed posts" are just as shitty and hostile as last thread's? the problems with discussion quality don't stem from the types of people talking, they stem from moderation outright refusing to actually enforce the fucking rules. nearly every post in the kyurem suspect thread, from both sides, was infraction-worthy according to the rules as written. if the suspect etiquette guidelines aren't enforced in at least the qualified thread, nothing will improve about the discourse, no matter who they exclude. if the higher-ups aren't willing to enforce the rules, they should change them to reflect what they're actually doing and make peace with having a lower level of dialogue

and for the record, if you're looking forward to the qualified thread because you think i specifically won't be able to post there, it's only a matter of time
 
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