Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[RainWaiv]

I feel like a tera blast ban is something that people keep putting off. There's an absurd amount of past situations that could so easily have been dealt with if tera blast was banned early on. Kingambit would be less of an annoying 50/50 machine, Volcarona wouldn't have been contentious enough to warrant a suspect, and Kyurem would be less broken, among others. At some point we'll have to rip the band-aid off and at least try to suspect it.

Maybe people don't want to accept the possibility of tera blast being broken because for the majority of the generation there's been a lot of crossover between the "tera blast is broken" crowd and the much more outspoken and "annoying" for lack of a better word that is the "tera is broken crowd", which is a statement that is becoming more false by the day. We're likely going to need a tera blast suspect at some point, and with generation 10 on the horizon, our time is running out.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

I feel like a tera blast ban is something that people keep putting off. There's an absurd amount of past situations that could so easily have been dealt with if tera blast was banned early on. Kingambit would be less of an annoying 50/50 machine, Volcarona wouldn't have been contentious enough to warrant a suspect, and Kyurem would be less broken, among others. At some point we'll have to rip the band-aid off and at least try to suspect it.

Maybe people don't want to accept the possibility of tera blast being broken because for the majority of the generation there's been a lot of crossover between the "tera blast is broken" crowd and the much more outspoken and "annoying" for lack of a better word that is the "tera is broken crowd", which is a statement that is becoming more false by the day. We're likely going to need a tera blast suspect at some point, and with generation 10 on the horizon, our time is running out.

Tera Blast being suspected is just a bandaid measure because we all know tera will never be outright banned. Blast is matchup fishing nonsense but so is a majority of teras anyway. Gambit doesn't need tera blast to rob you, it can do it by just using a tera you were not prepared for. I played up to around like top 80 or so recently on the ladder. I literally did not run into one match where I felt terablast was an issue. I had to deal with tera flipping mus over and over again and banning blast but leaving tera just seems silly. If this community is steadfast on preserving tera as the defining gen mechanic I don't see why blast should go because they realistically fulfill the same thing, turning a matchup on its head. This gen is what it is, a very fishy one that rewards you playing a ton of ladder games to try to surmise what possible teras someone would be using. Some like it, some don't but its obvious after the first tera non ban thats what it was going to be. You can ban terablast sure but its not going to stop you from getting swept by random setup sweeper tera'ing to avoid a kill and then running through half your team unless you are privy to the usual teras that sweeper uses, and tera timing folks have with said sweeper.

Personally I think Gambit is a stranglehold on the gen and necessitates 2 definite checks/counters on your team and then another fringe one if the tera they use can get through them. If you just pull up with one "counter" you are liable to get reverse swept if they have the magic tera that beats it.

 

[Avira]

Tera Blast being suspected is just a bandaid measure because we all know tera will never be outright banned. Blast is matchup fishing nonsense but so is a majority of teras anyway. Gambit doesn't need tera blast to rob you, it can do it by just using a tera you were not prepared for. I played up to around like top 80 or so recently on the ladder. I literally did not run into one match where I felt terablast was an issue. I had to deal with tera flipping mus over and over again and banning blast but leaving tera just seems silly. If this community is steadfast on preserving tera as the defining gen mechanic I don't see why blast should go because they realistically fulfill the same thing, turning a matchup on its head. This gen is what it is, a very fishy one that rewards you playing a ton of ladder games to try to surmise what possible teras someone would be using. Some like it, some don't but its obvious after the first tera non ban thats what it was going to be. You can ban terablast sure but its not going to stop you from getting swept by random setup sweeper tera'ing to avoid a kill and then running through half your team unless you are privy to the usual teras that sweeper uses, and tera timing folks have with said sweeper.

Personally I think Gambit is a stranglehold on the gen and necessitates 2 definite checks/counters on your team and then another fringe one if the tera they use can get through them. If you just pull up with one "counter" you are liable to get reverse swept if they have the magic tera that beats it.

While true, at least with a Tera Blast ban, Zamazenta and Great Tusk can't be sniped by Tera Fairy Tera Blast from Kingambit and are more consistent into it. Something like Iron Moth also has many consistent counters with Tera Blast banned. Kyurem's best sets would also be gutted without Tera Blast. Since Tera clearly won't be banned this generation, Tera Blast is a viable option to hit to reduce the overall variance in the tier.

Yeah, Kingambit is a serious issue and should be a target of tiering action. It sets up game-winning situations a bit too easily 'cause of Supreme Overlord and the obnoxious priority on a mon with such high natural bulk. Getting rid of it would ease up teambuilder constraints more than nearly every other potential suspect target. A number of good players cited Kingambit as a problem in the Kyurem suspect thread, so there is some appetite there to get it out of the tier.

 

[LucaHNO]

Tera blast might now be common but it's the worst of the worst of this gen. We can ban either kyurem or Tera, so now we must do that as our version of placing flowers around people with the plague so at least the tier doesn't smell like shit.

Also kingambit is a symptom, not a cause

 

[Unstoppable1]

what would a "balanced tier" look like in your opinion? you've mentioned wanting action on hydrapple, anything else you think we should be looking into right now that isn't on the radar?

First of all, i never wanted to suspect Hydrapple, reaction to my posts made it clear that people would never want to get rid of him.
Tier could already be good if we were going to Tera Blast ban and Volcarona/some other mons unban, but as i mentioned, we have several broken mons like Kingambit and Waterpon, which significantly complicate teambuilding

 

[Finchinator]

I believe in the reasonableness of most people, but the fact that we suspect Gliscor at all doesnt give any hope for normal suspects in the future

I dont support Gliscor suspect, just ez one more DNB vote (thanks to my parents im smart enough and i dont need to explain my position to random people on this forum)

Was hoping to take a day off of monitoring this forum, but just wanted to point out how silly this is (and it’s not just these two quotes — it’s numerous posts).

You cannot just speak strongly out in favor or against something and claim anyone on the other side is wrong, but provide no reasoning.

To put it bluntly and briefly, using the reasoning of “thanks to my parents im smart enough and i dont need to explain my position” is not exactly moving the needle.

Gliscor is a prime suspect candidate because the SD set is very challenging to minimize. Offense has some good counterplay to it that can limit it or force Tera, which can be abused. Sometimes it takes getting creative or trading along the way, but I don’t view it as the end of the world there. Balance, however, needs to be hyper specific to limit Gliscor’s impact on games. Being able to soak Knock Off and status while negating SR and being immune to Spikes is already great utility, but with PHeal + Protect you see increased survivability and with SD + various offensive options you see a ton of progress made over time.

I don’t even know if I am pro-ban personally, but wanting a suspect is plenty valid. I’m not saying Tera Blast is a bad idea either, but dismissing Gliscor without providing any information is not the right approach.

we will never get a balanced tier anyway because the council listens to people from this thread.

Finally, this is so tone deaf and disproven by pretty much the entire track record of this generation. Every single time we suspect or ban something, it is fueled by internal discussions or qualified surveys, which tends to have minimal overlap with this thread. The main times discussions here carry over is when I see an exceptional or novel point brought up — in that event, I relay it. Also, read the room: this thread is like >50% people complaining or questioning decisions and plenty more people critiquing timelines and specifics. Your claim just couldn’t be further from the truth and there’s so much evidence on the contrary throughout the modern history of tiering.

 

[Unstoppable1]

Was hoping to take a day off of monitoring this forum, but just wanted to point out how silly this is (and it’s not just these two quotes — it’s numerous posts).

People who want to suspect Gliscor are just crazy, you have no idea what kind of shit this tier will become if Gliscor gets banned (It's never going to happen, so first of all it's a waste of time)
Instead of Tera Blast suspect and Volcarona unban, which will give you more opportunities to build, you want to ban Gliscor and hit the stall/balance teams, and after that you will ask to Waterpon/Rbolt/Hamurott/other shit suspect

It doesn`t matter, im talking about teambuilding
View attachment 678122
Offense/HO will become stronger and more popular with the weakening of other structures, thats what i meant

For some reason, you didnt mark the posts that contained my arguments against this decision

To put it bluntly and briefly, using the reasoning of “thanks to my parents im smart enough and i dont need to explain my position” is not exactly moving the needle.

But you saw this post, and i wanted to say that i do not intend to explain why i will vote for DNB Gliscor (i feel like some people have complaints about me and all the other players who voted for DNB Kyurem)

Being able to soak Knock Off and status while negating SR and being immune to Spikes is already great utility

Yes, this is the reason why we can still use stall teams in this gen.
Lets talk about defensive sets, they existed for many months and no one has complained, now we will also ban them because some people cant play against SD Facade? Lmao

 

[AerionT]

I feel like a tera blast ban is something that people keep putting off. There's an absurd amount of past situations that could so easily have been dealt with if tera blast was banned early on. Kingambit would be less of an annoying 50/50 machine, Volcarona wouldn't have been contentious enough to warrant a suspect, and Kyurem would be less broken, among others. At some point we'll have to rip the band-aid off and at least try to suspect it.

Maybe people don't want to accept the possibility of tera blast being broken because for the majority of the generation there's been a lot of crossover between the "tera blast is broken" crowd and the much more outspoken and "annoying" for lack of a better word that is the "tera is broken crowd", which is a statement that is becoming more false by the day. We're likely going to need a tera blast suspect at some point, and with generation 10 on the horizon, our time is running out.

How would banning Tera Blast make Kingambit less of a 50/50 machine if what makes it a 50/50 machine is Terastalization and not the Blast move?

 

[Finchinator]

For some reason, you didnt mark the posts that contained my arguments against this decision

That’s not an argument. That’s you calling people crazy and claiming things about the theoretical post-Gliscor metagame. That has nothing to do with Gliscor being broken right now or not.

Even in this post, you talk about the usefulness of Gliscor in the tier, but don’t engage on counterplay at all.

Hate to break it to you, but you need to discuss the Pokemon being broken or not to argue on if it’s broken!

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

How would banning Tera Blast make Kingambit less of a 50/50 machine if what makes it a 50/50 machine is Terastalization and not the Blast move?

Though sucker punch and defensive tera 50/50s still will exist- great tusk and zamazenta will never be OHKOd by a tera fairy blast and will serve as somewhat reliable checks. Though these are but two small examples- there are many small examples which in total will amount to lowering the offensive pressure in the game- giving us real checks back, which hardly exist at this time with the possibility of tera blast.

I am very disappointed in gliscor coming next.. and I can see us circling back to kyurem again. Tera blast seems to me like such a huge change in the game that it should be prioritized when it has peaked in interest.. but oh well.. a gliscor ban doesn't feel like it will be extremely detrimental. Fat will get better but there's nothing gliscor is holding back that will surge and necessarily continue the ban cascade, aside from emboldening the ban cascade party. Hopefully we can look at tera blast next. Won't hold my breath.

 

[RaikouLover]

The Tera ship has sailed. In the interim there is still a ton of broken shit making this meta vexxing.

No tears will be shed for Gliscor though I fear with Kyurem being freed it may fall short of ban.

Ogerpon-W, Kingambit, Raging Neck, Darkrai, Kyurem, Gholdengo, and Zama all can kick rocks.

I have a special hatred for Garganacl. “But it’s a Tera hog.” I don’t care. It’s an uncompetitive piece of garbage that just makes gameplay worse if you refuse to put covert cloak on your team.

 

[Unstoppable1]

That’s not an argument. That’s you calling people crazy and claiming things about the theoretical post-Gliscor metagame. That has nothing to do with Gliscor being broken right now or not.

Even in this post, you talk about the usefulness of Gliscor in the tier, but don’t engage on counterplay at all.

Hate to break it to you, but you need to discuss the Pokemon being broken or not to argue on if it’s broken!

OK man, I`ve been using all these teams for the last 2-3 weeks in OURLT and at 1800s+ ladder, and i can tell you this: Gliscor is NOT broken.
He has a lot of problems with Hex mons and you need to use Tera Normal, which is NOT really good because then Zama kills Gliscor, he has a lot of problems with Corviknight, he has a lot of problems with Kingambit/Garg because Knock Off+Facade is your standard set, and if you running EQ you cant touch Balloon Gholdengo/Sinistcha, Great Tusk/Kyurem also make you spend Tera and then they beat Gliscor with CC/Tera Ground EP.

Now i would like to ask you to build some stall/balance/bo teams without Gliscor and use them in high-quality tours, this is the theoretical post-Gliscor metagame you`re talking about, and if you still dont know which side you`re on, i guess this will help you figure it out.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

While true, at least with a Tera Blast ban, Zamazenta and Great Tusk can't be sniped by Tera Fairy Tera Blast from Kingambit and are more consistent into it. Something like Iron Moth also has many consistent counters with Tera Blast banned. Kyurem's best sets would also be gutted without Tera Blast. Since Tera clearly won't be banned this generation, Tera Blast is a viable option to hit to reduce the overall variance in the tier.

Yeah, Kingambit is a serious issue and should be a target of tiering action. It sets up game-winning situations a bit too easily 'cause of Supreme Overlord and the obnoxious priority on a mon with such high natural bulk. Getting rid of it would ease up teambuilder constraints more than nearly every other potential suspect target. A number of good players cited Kingambit as a problem in the Kyurem suspect thread, so there is some appetite there to get it out of the tier.

It doesn't even need Terablast to get through them depending on what set you are running. Just getting a 1/2 SD off and running like tera ghost, fairy, can get past each of them and then at that point it may come down to the classic will he or will he not sucker punch game as you lost your counter. which what I mean by you need at least two, realistically something bulky enough to force the tera then like a encore user to lock him into sucker (granted, this too can boil down to a 50/50)

but my point is really that tera blast or not it definitely can use tera to get through a majority of its answers. I suppose if you take away tera blast tera fight dondozo because a 100% counter at least.

 

[Finchinator]

OK man, I`ve been using all these teams for the last 2-3 weeks in OURLT and at 1800s+ ladder, and i can tell you this: Gliscor is NOT broken

I don’t personally think Gliscor is that broken either (as I said in my initial post — more borderline), but I absolutely think a few things:

• Gliscor requires a disproportionate amount of effort and resources when building balanced
• Gliscor itself has very limited counterplay when using the SD set
• Gliscor action has received a ton of support recently
• Gliscor has enough support in the community for a suspect test

Don’t think anyone is really debating those points either.

He has a lot of problems with Hex mons

This is silly btw. Without Tera Ghost, you beat Dragapult if you run SDef and even non-SDef wins if you have to swap in Pult. And Gholdengo needs Tera to have a chance to win that 1v1. Not to mention that Gliscor tends to outlast both.

Corviknight

Incredibly easy for SD + Knock sets to blow through 8 roost PP while hardly taking any damage along the way. It’s good to be a U-turn touchpoint to faster Ice moves for sure though.

if you running EQ you cant touch Balloon Gholdengo/Sinistcha

Try EQ + Ice Fang — ends up owning a ton of teams that gamble on Facade Knock. Gliscor plays itself around counterplay and can handpick what it wants to be checked by a lot.

Now i would like to ask you to build some stall/balance/bo teams without Gliscor and use them in high-quality tours, this is the theoretical post-Gliscor metagame you`re talking about, and if you still dont know which side you`re on, i guess this will help you figure it out.

I just want to point out that this isn’t how it works at all. So much changes and those archetypes get free’d up a ton, too. With that said, I have quite literally played a ton of bulky-O without Gliscor and even some balance — you saying this to me of all people when I am literally known as being a Ting Lu balance merchant is pretty funny.

 

[Leavers]

does it not make sense to redo the suspect? i woulda got reqs for kyurem if i had known the obvious ban voters where all fraudulent

 

[Pais]

In my personal and humble opinion doing any suspect soon isn't the best thing to do. Kyurem has just been unbanned, let the meta evolve around that a little bit and then let's see what it can be done in terms of suspecting Gliscor, Kyurem or whatever. Waiting some week would be ideal.

On a side note: I also hope in a significative increase of difficulty in suspect tests and that the idea of tour reqs alongside ladder reqs is not discarded at all. It's the best time to try something significative that both rewards competence instead of pure grinding and also as a way to prevent at least from a statistical point of view the cheating in suspect tests.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

does it not make sense to redo the suspect? i woulda got reqs for kyurem if i had known the obvious ban voters where all fraudulent

Metagame Post in thread 'SV OU Metagame Discussion v4'

Oct 13, 2024

And to everyone requesting a re-count or a re-vote, stop. It’s done. Kyurem had a test and the legitimate verdict is Do Not Ban. There is no more nuance to the situation.

We can re-suspect it down the line if it’s appropriate, but anything else would be a miscarriage of justice and a misuse of administrative power. This is not up for debate and had I not taken the last 12 hours to have an actual life and sleep, I would have cut this off pages ago.

Finally, stop being doomers. The tier was a little better without Kyurem in my eyes, but it was fine before the suspect and it was never an...

• Finchinator

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[arnimacarni]

I have a special hatred for Garganacl. “But it’s a Tera hog.” I don’t care. It’s an uncompetitive piece of garbage that just makes gameplay worse if you refuse to put covert cloak on your team.

gets salt cured once

bro you come in this thread every three months complaining about garg and nobody is with you on this, im not even asking you to consider that youre wrong, i just ask to maybe give in to the idea that your opinion is strooongly unpopular. if anything, garg is a great gliscor check.

you've been behind a tera ban all gen and now that we're starting to shift on tera blast it's all muuuh garg is mean to me man there's bigger fish to fry

Now i would like to ask you to build some stall/balance/bo teams without Gliscor and use them in high-quality tours, this is the theoretical post-Gliscor metagame you`re talking about, and if you still dont know which side you`re on, i guess this will help you figure it out.

voting based on what playstyles you prefer is absolutely despicable and makes you look less reliable and trustworthy in the point you're trying to make. be better. you have the time and skill to get reqs, the least you can do is be inpartial and objective.

does it not make sense to redo the suspect? i woulda got reqs for kyurem if i had known the obvious ban voters where all fraudulent

i do agree that my preferred outcome of the whole kyurem kerfuffel would have been a re-vote, however i think it's a logistical waste at this point in time, and there's so much tension regarding this issue that i believe it's best to de-escalate the situation and give it some breathing room. finch and everybody must be so damn burned out and sometimes ppl forget they're actual human beings and not the monolith people from evangelion

 

[Finchinator]

ngl that is a terrible post by finch lmao but tbf he has to deal with this thread daily, ggs

you said you would have gotten reqs for Kyurem had you known there been fraudulent voters when the fraudulent voters were only discovered well after the fact. this is complete nonsense

The legitimate voters voted for it to remain in the tier. Had those 11 people just not voted, it would’ve been 59% and simply stayed in the tier. This is just like any other suspect at this point.

If you want to be mad it didn’t get banned, look at yourself for not getting reqs to begin with. Look at the people who were lazy and cheated for not doing it legitimately. Don’t look at us for making a decision that had to be adhered to for the sake of the legitimacy of the vote. Otherwise, the time of everyone who got reqs to begin with is wasted and the process is thrown out. It’s a non-starter.

 

[Unstoppable1]

gets salt cured once

bro you come in this thread every three months complaining about garg and nobody is with you on this, im not even asking you to consider that youre wrong, i just ask to maybe give in to the idea that your opinion is strooongly unpopular. if anything, garg is a great gliscor check.

you've been behind a tera ban all gen and now that we're starting to shift on tera blast it's all muuuh garg is mean to me man there's bigger fish to fry


voting based on what playstyles you prefer is absolutely despicable and makes you look less reliable and trustworthy in the point you're trying to make. be better. you have the time and skill to get reqs, the least you can do is be inpartial and objective.


i do agree that my preferred outcome of the whole kyurem kerfuffel would have been a re-vote, however i think it's a logistical waste at this point in time, and there's so much tension regarding this issue that i believe it's best to de-escalate the situation and give it some breathing room. finch and everybody must be so damn burned out and sometimes ppl forget they're actual human beings and not the monolith people from evangelion

Being impartial and objective means taking into account the interests of all players, including stall and balance lovers, everyone who wants to vote for Gliscor ban doesnt follow this rule. I cant say that im a player of any particular style (everyone who watched my games in OU room can confirm this), i especially dont like stall in SV because you can lose even to HO (lose to only two mons SD Waterpon and Psyshock Gholdengo)

 

[LucaHNO]

In my personal and humble opinion doing any suspect soon isn't the best thing to do. Kyurem has just been unbanned, let the meta evolve around that a little bit and then let's see what it can be done in terms of suspecting Gliscor, Kyurem or whatever. Waiting some week would be ideal.

On a side note: I also hope in a significative increase of difficulty in suspect tests and that the idea of tour reqs alongside ladder reqs is not discarded at all. It's the best time to try something significative that both rewards competence instead of pure grinding and also as a way to prevent at least from a statistical point of view the cheating in suspect tests.

How does increasing reqs prevent cheating? It seems to me that it just makes the small possibility that the cheating goes unnoticed (like previous suspects) more impactful for the general %. If somebody can get reqs on 11 accounts, they surely can get them again with 2 points higher gXE.

 

[June Heat]

What have you guys been using to check Raging Bolt? I’m tired of putting Iron Treads on my teams.

 

[arnimacarni]

Being impartial and objective means taking into account the interests of all players, including stall and balance lovers, everyone who wants to vote for Gliscor ban doesnt follow this rule. I cant say that im a player of any particular style (everyone who watched my games in OU room can confirm this), i especially dont like stall in SV because you can lose even to HO (lose to only two mons SD Waterpon and Psyshock Gholdengo)

yeah but like, taking the interest of all players is not "oh if glisc goes then balance gets better and stall sucks" or whatever bc i clearly dont know shit

it should be more like "does this mon force way too specific counterplay in order to handle it", thats why gambit is mostly fine now, bc the tier is built around handling it, so counterplay to gambit is not specific

like we all play the game, not only the people in the stall discord, and not only the little timmies of the world who build braindead HO, whether a mon is broken or not goes beyond the playstyle

 

[Unstoppable1]

it should be more like "does this mon force way too specific counterplay in order to handle it"

If you can say that about Gliscor, you need to say same thing about Waterpon, Walking Wake, Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt and a lot of other shit, that can 6-0 your team if you make a mistake when building and dont pick up enough reliable checks.
Like any other mon, Gliscor has counterplays, but its so unfair people only discuss him, ignoring really broken mons like Kingambit, explaining it this way "Yea Kingambit is very broken, but he was #1 usage mon all 20 months after SV release, so now he is our mascot"

 

[Magcargo]

What have you guys been using to check Raging Bolt? I’m tired of putting Iron Treads on my teams.

Great tusk + spdef fairy, either Tinkaton, Fezandipti, or AV Hatterene.