Metagame Convergence [(New Bans post #361)]

Can we unban either Shell Smash or Quiver Dance? All the setup mons in this meta are either Dragon Dance / Tidy Up or the Calm Mind Iron Defense sets, it's unfair for Special Attackers to lose both setup moves. Shell Smash might be broken but I don't think Quiver Dance would be that bad. The meta's kinda stale right now.
Nasty Plot is Free for all who have it + more. Take Heart is one ofbthe best set up koves in the game and is on every single bulky water who can reasonably profit. Tail Glow. Special set up options are quite fine, no need to unban broken things to spice things up. Thats not how tiering works anyway.
 
Nasty Plot is Free for all who have it + more. Take Heart is one ofbthe best set up koves in the game and is on every single bulky water who can reasonably profit. Tail Glow. Special set up options are quite fine, no need to unban broken things to spice things up. Thats not how tiering works anyway.
None of those boost speed, while physical attackers have Dragon Dance and Tidy Up special attackers have nothing. Quiver Dance wouldn't be broken, there are so many Unaware mons it's not even funny. And what, things just keep on getting banned and nothing can ever be unbanned? Also Chansey has both Intimidate as an ability and Glare, special attackers are disadvantaged right now.
 
None of those boost speed, while physical attackers have Dragon Dance and Tidy Up special attackers have nothing. Quiver Dance wouldn't be broken, there are so many Unaware mons it's not even funny. And what, things just keep on getting banned and nothing can ever be unbanned? Also Chansey has both Intimidate as an ability and Glare, special attackers are disadvantaged right now.
Special set up options are quite fine, no need to unban broken things to spice things up. Thats not how tiering works anyway.
 
Yeah there are several really strong potential Quiver Dance receivers, I don't think anyone should even ask about seeing that return any time soon.

:Vivillon: :masquerain: Tinted Lens Quiver Dance Yanmega. Honestly the least problematic element of the below.
:oricorio: Charizard, Talonflame, or Moltres. All really powerful if given a chance to set up.
:oricorio-sensu: Drifblim, while not nearly as good as the other ones mentioned here, could still be scary with Flare Boost.
:oricorio-pom-pom: Kilowattrel, Rotom-Fan, Thundurus, and Zapdos. Prankster Quiver Dance, especially on those last two, is terrifying.
:oricorio-pa'u: Braviary-Hisui and Articuno-Galar. With Sheer Force, you really want these to get QDance?
:lilligant: Quiver Dance Sceptile, Shaymin, or Serperior. No thanks. Especially with access to Queenly Majesty, Poison Heal, or Grassy Surge.

Yeah I think just this list should make it pretty clear that there would be several broken things if Quiver Dance was unbanned.
 
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Oh, you guys think that high-octane offense is all that Convergence allows?

We're climbing the ladder with STALL, baby!


Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 48 SpD / 176 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
- Body Press
- Stored Power

Not sure what you want me to explain here other than I have no clue why Cress is legal. Its bulk and Unaware makes it pretty much impossible to kill directly while it freely makes itself invincible with Cosmic Power while healing back to full with Recover, and steamrolls everything with boosted Body Press and Stored Power. If you want, you can replace Unaware with either Magic Guard or Magic Bounce to say no to indirect ways of crippling Cresselia, but my team needed an Unaware slot so that's what I went with. Also, Calm Mind works instead of Cosmic Power if you want Stored Power to be dealing bigger damage more than you want to buff Cresselia's defenses and Body Press damage output, it's up to you.

The EVs look weird, and admittedly they are. 176 Speed is needed to outspeed Modest Raging Bolt so it can set up a boost before it can land an attack, and the Special Defense allows it to withstand almost any of Raging Bolt's attacks after it sets up a boost even with Sun and Choice Specs. The remaining EVs are used to buff it's physical Defense so Body Press is naturally stronger. If you think you can do better with Cresselia's EVs, feel free to play around with them because it's pretty hard to mess them up.


Shaymin @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Protect
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power

Wow, this thing is obnoxious. Poison Heal and Strength Sap coupled with Protect and Shaymin's amazing stats makes it almost impossible to kill passively. The last two moves are extremely customizable. I chose Seed Flare for an immediate offensive threat and Earth Power for general coverage against the likes of Fezandipity and Raging Bolt. Really, you can use whatever move you feel like wanting your Shaymin to have. Ivy Cudgel, Knock Off, U-Turn, Triple Axel, Knock Off, Spikes, Rapid Spin, Leech Seed, Substitute, who am I to stop you? Same goes with the EVs; I made it more physically inclined to wall more with Strength Sap draining and hit on the special side, but feel free to make it run however you like and it's unlikely you'll be punished for it.


Toxapex @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Barb Barrage
- Rapid Spin
- Flip Turn
- Knock Off

Assault Vest Toxapex was already discussed previously, and yeah it's really, really good. Takes hits like nothing, debilitates opponents while relieving hazard pressure, pivots out with Flip Turn, and even acts as offensive pressure with Barb Barrage. The only change I made was making it so it had 248 HP EVs so its HP wouldn't be divisible by 8 to minimize hazards damage and would be divisible by 3 to maximize Regenerator recovery.


Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Parting Shot
- Foul Play

Yeah, we all know this guy. Fur Coat Umbreon is really difficult to kill and makes life miserable by constantly supporting the team in the sidelines. Wish and Protect gives it healing that it can pass onto its teammates to make sure that they can never die either. Usually Toxic is ran alongside Protect to maximize residual damage, but the other options are too good to pass up. Parting Shot allows Umbreon to pivot easily into other teammates to pass along Wishes freely and debuff the opponent's offenses (which is pretty good on a team that wants to take as many hits as possible), and Foul Play is a non-negotiable STAB that punishes the physical walls that Umbreon is built to sit in front of. Umbreon really doesn't need Defense investment since it's natural bulk is already so good, so its EV investment went into Special Defense to take hits from both sides.


Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Body Press
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade / Hex

You'd he surprised just how much mono-Ghost gives in Convergence. Dusclops gets Fluffy and Body Press from Houndstone and Strength Sap from Polteageist which makes it a nearly-impassable stonewall against physical attackers that dishes damage back. Add on Will-O-Wisp to debilitate physical attackers for the long term while tacking on residual damage and Eviolite making it even bulkier, and it's effectively another copy of Umbreon that's more tailored to deal with physical attackers directly. To be honest, the thing is so bulky that it's not even all that bad if its Eviolite gets Knocked Off. The last slot is up to preference, either Night Shade for consistent damage or Hex for the boosted damage while they're statused with Burn.


Tinkaton (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 64 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Encore
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Play Rough / Gigaton Hammer

...I can explain.

My team needed Stealth Rock and a Fairy type that could match well against Roaring Moon, and Tinkaton ended up being the best choice out of all of the available options. The set works like normal Tinkaton, except it takes a page out of Klefki's book and makes use of Prankster Encore to screw over bad plays. It also allows Tinkaton to pull off a priority Stealth Rock to always secure hazards on field. Knock Off is the main punish tool that progresses the game state and debilitates opponents. I run Play Rough as the last slot so I have a clean KO against Roaring Moon and deal consistent damage to Raging Bolt, but Gigaton Hammer works just as well as a generic nuke option.

Rocky Helmet is to act as a deterrent to weaker physical attacks, and is an option that can be used despite the lack of its own healing due to Wish support. Tinkaton really isn't trying to remain on the field at all times, it's primary goal is to lead with Stealth Rock and apply pressure to predictions and pray against key matchups, so Leftovers isn't a mandatory item slot for it. The EVs are taken right out of Tinkaton's UU set description, except I put the 12 Attack EVs into Speed because... um... maybe I'll find an uninvested Uxie or something? To be honest, I don't know where else to put them.
 
Given that Quiver Dance is banned but not Victory Dance (+Atk, +Def and +Speed for those not in the know), since the only official user is Hisuian Lilligant, the other Grass / Fighting-type Pokémon still benefit a lot from gaining that move. Also of note is Breloom granting access to Technician for other Grass / Fighting Pokémon, boosting Trailblaze and Rock Tomb for all of them.

:breloom: 130 Attack backed up with Victory Dance allows it to tank non-Flying physical hits better and potentially outspeed anything that would otherwise outspeed Breeloom. It’s easy to see why only Spore got banned and not every sleep-inducing moves, as passing Spore to Virizion or Hisuian Lilligant would be nightmare, and a Breloom with boosted Speed would be pushed even further with Spore.
:lilligant-hisui: OG user of Victory Dance. Technician from Breloom boosts Bullet Seed, Grassy Glide and Triple Axel, but still doesn’t have much that threatens Fire-type threats.
:virizion: Lowest Atk compared to others, but is slightly faster than Hisuian Lilligant and has a high Special Defense, so one shall play around Virizion with Victory Dance cautiously. Technician also allows Virizion to viably use Vacuum Wave, Mud Shot, Magical Leaf (for more PP than Energy Ball) and Air Cutter, though it might prefer to run physical thanks to…
:chesnaught: Biggest beneficier by granting Bulldoze / Earthquake, Spikes, Bite / Knock Off, Spiky Shield, Iron Head, Taunt, Roar, and Reflect. (Italized means Technician) It also benefit Victory Dance the most amongst the slower Grass / Fighting thanks to having the highest Defense and is already a tier higher than the rest (RU vs Breloom’s NU), making Chesnaught one powerful set-up wallbreaker with either Scrappy, Technician or even Poison Heal.
:decidueye-hisui: It’s more of a giver than a fighter, granting Nasty Plot (for Virizion), Roost, Haze, Defog, U-Turn, Light Screen (so Chesnaught can set both it and Reflect with Poison Heal Ability), Dual Wingbeat (for opposing Grass-type), Sucker Punch, and especially Triple Arrows, but is not able to do anything it can do that others can’t do better.
 
Given that Quiver Dance is banned but not Victory Dance [...]
Victory Dance in itself is not banned, but the only donor, Lilligant-Hisui, is. Which is mainly because of that move, sooo...it's unlikely we're going to see that any time soon.

However, there is a different, more explosive, setup move that Grass/Fightings get access to: Belly Drum. Granted, most of these mons don't have exactly stellar bulk to pull it off (not to mention being pretty awkward against Unaware mons and the Triage Fairies), but I've had fun using Belly Drum Chesnaught with Grassy Surge support. Having access to Technician and several priority moves certainly helps to get around its Speed.
:sv/chesnaught:
Chesnaught @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Technician :Breloom:
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Mach Punch :Breloom:
- Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch :Decidueye-hisui:
- Belly Drum
 
Why can't mono-electric types have Electric Surge (Pinchurchin) or U-Turn (Eeelektross). Interestingly, they can learn Eelektross' other moves.
 
:bw/cresselia:
Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magic Guard (:reuniclus:)/ Unaware (:cosmog:) / Magic Bounce (:espeon:)
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off (:azelf:) / filler
- Wish (:espeon:) / Moonlight
- Moonblast / Lumina Crash (:espathra:) (DON'T IF UNAWARE)
- Teleport (:deoxys:) / Heal Bell (:chimecho:)

Another Wish passer, with amazing bulk, and great ability / movepool. Unaware to sit on setup sweepers, Magic Guard to free up an item slot, and Magic Bounce to prevent hazards being set up on your side. I'm actually not sure how common hazard spreading is, nor how good this can be. (Haven't tested it out)
 
Psychic move with decent PP
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Since the meta tends to be quite defensive (not to stay stallish), here my suggestion to deal with such teams:

:Iron Crown: @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate :bronzong:
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Volt Switch / Calm Mind
- Doom Desire :jirachi: / Tachyon Cutter
- Psychic Noise
- Wish :jirachi:

It can deal with things like defensive P-Heal :landorus-therian: (being immunised to Toxic/EQ) and basically any slower mons that rely on recovery (AV :toxapex: and stuff).
Iron Crown naturally has enough speed to Psychic Noise such things before they try to pivot or heal themselves.
I'm not sure about the EV spread but I guess it can run max HP/DEF with CM or max Spa/Spe in a more offensive way.
Wishpassing is cool for extending your team's longevity and Doom Desire hits really hard, even univested.
 
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:bw/torkoal:
Torkoal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate (:torracat:)
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 SpD (idk, suck at EVs)
Sassy Nature
- U-turn (:cinderace:)
- Court Change (:cinderace:)
- Sacred Fire (:entei:)
- Morning Sun (:ninetales:)

What do you mean Gholdengo blocks all hazard removal attempts???
I hate Gholdengo + hazards in Convergence, probably because my team sucks against it, but I think I finally have an answer.
I can reverse hazard stack!!!
Torkoal is slow enough to pivot out a teammate in safely, Intimidate adds on to its physical bulk, and Sacred Fire for free (50%) burns.
And it can also heal now thanks to Morning Sun, so that's nice.

Probably going to tell my experience with it soon

Hmmm. It's fine, I guess? Might just be my luck but Sacred Fire never burns, but I feel like it's not bulky enough? Even tried sets with no attack investment, and it's fairly exploitable.

Posting another set of mine here, because I do not want to clog this thread up too much.
:sv/moltres-galar:
Moltres-Galar @ Booster Energy / Heavy-Duty Boots / Choice item?
Ability: Berserk / Quark Drive (:iron-jugulis:)
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 28 Def / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost (:mandibuzz:)
- Nasty Plot
- Fiery Wrath
- Air Slash

I feel like Galarian Moltres has potential, but the lack of reliable recovery kind of hurt it. But now, it can receive Roost from mandibuzz or Bombirdier. Speed boosting Booster Energy to outspeed the likes of Greninja, Scream Tail and Scarf Gholdengo.
Or you can just use Roost to keep on falling into Berserk range as much (8 times) as you want.
I've tried it out twice, and I like it. Set up on a Blissey and ended up dealing ~55% at +6. Should've ran T-Wave for them.
 
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I don't see what your point is... Mystical Power is 1 stage lower Sp Atk, and not as impactful as Lumina Crash. Psychic has a 10% chance and 1 stage lower, Psychic Noise is decent but most offensive mons don't recover anyway. Lumina Crash is still the best one overall.
for the record, mystical power is 1 stage higher special atk. but yeah, ignoring that the post was originally about unaware + lumina crash (which doesnt work) lumina crash does scale faster anyways, and deals more damage with higher bp.
 
the original post was talking about on unaware cresselia... who'd ignore the -2 spdef... but insisted lumina crash was superior

good lord learn to read context
It's funny you say to read context when you didn't. I responded to that original comment and the comment you replied to was replying to his retort to mine. Learn to read context and not be a smug nerd who's confidently wrong. My response to his Unaware comment was about the fact Cresselia can switch out after hitting a Lumina Crash to a Pokemon that could make use of it, and that it's the best available move for Cresselia overall.
 
Entei @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drought (:torkoal:)
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance (:charmeleon:)
- Pyro Ball (:cinderace:)
- Morning Sun (:ninetales:)
- Earthquake (:slugma:)

Funny thing. Morning sun profits from Drought, DD to boost its offenses and speed, EQ for coverage.
It's funny to nuke things, but when fighting walls, do check your PP.
 
Entei @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drought (:torkoal:)
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance (:charmeleon:)
- Pyro Ball (:cinderace:)
- Morning Sun (:ninetales:)
- Earthquake (:slugma:)

Funny thing. Morning sun profits from Drought, DD to boost its offenses and speed, EQ for coverage.
It's funny to nuke things, but when fighting walls, do check your PP.
Gouging Fire on steroids, very nice!

Here something to deal with Fur Coat/Unaware things:

:Iron Treads: @ Leftovers / Life Orb / Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker :excadrill:
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance :excadrill:

It also hits Levitate :pecharunt: effectively.
 
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