Stellar type Zama is super interesting. Usually I opt for Tera Dark to try and muscle past defensive ghost, but Stellar being a nice catch all is super appealing.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I don't know if its a cheese strat that's gained popularity or just me putting extra attention on it, but I feel like custap berry is something that skyrocketed in usage these past few months.
Primarina can use it, lead mons can use it, Serperior uses it on that one RMT
Fun development that custap strats actually do stuff now
Primarina can use it, lead mons can use it, Serperior uses it on that one RMT
Fun development that custap strats actually do stuff now
Yeah, I made a post a while back talking about how I felt it was super unexplored which was weird to me in such a fast paced Metagame.
I could see a future where Dual Type Mons with great Offensive and Defensive typing use a one boost, two STAB attacks + Tera Blast Move set.
Getting an OHKO on a Mon trying to Counter with its own Defensive Tera would be such a momentum shift or even a Checkmate situation
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Zama is fine in my opinion because it does like absolutely nothing into fat teams. Even sub zama really struggles into Sinistcha, Gholdengo, Scor, Mola, Corv, Molt, Zap, etc. Offense also has numerous ways to beat it, such as running Pult to force it out and burn Dauntless while keeping up pressure, running Iron Moth to again force it out once while keeping up pressure, Iron Valiant doing similar things, Landorus-T forcing it out and pissing it off, Tera Flying Roaring Moon, spinblocker Gholdengo, etc. A lot of offensive or HO-leaning Pokémon, while being unable to counter it, check it enough for it to burn Dauntless and become unable to consistently sweep or check the team's numerous offensive threats. While yes, Zamazenta is IMO a top 2 Pokémon at least, and one of the central forces in the metagame, I consider it downright healthy as a way to punish offense and check the numerous Darks in the tier such as Kingambit and Darkrai. I feel like those clamoring for its ban are too focused on what it can do in theory instead of what it actually does in practice.
The way I see it, Zamazenta being difficult to check isn't Zama's fault, it's the meta's fault. If that makes any sense. It would be so much easier to fit Zama checks if I didn't have to build around like 3 or 4 other stupid pokemon before having to think about the doggo.
I've also seen some people say things such as "You're just saying that because you've convinced your self that it's a necessary evil to check pokémon like Kingambit." Necessary evil you say? How? No joke, I find nonsense like Kingambit and Gliscor harder to answer than Zamazenta. How on Earth can I call this a "necessary evil" when it's fine on it's own merrits, adds a splashable answer to a bunch of pokémon to the tier that still feels fair to answer and you don't need to rely on, and has the right balance of set variety without leaning into a "Guess my set" style of minigame, like with Kyurem's 5 war crimes it calls sets, or Ogerpon-Wellspring playing a russian roulette of it's 4th move slot on Swords Dance sets.
Don't take this as me saying that Zamazenta is just a non-issue, and that if you hate it, you're the problem. I'm simply arguing that maybe Zamazenta isn't as bad as the other suspect candidates, and especially the banned pokes. This could change down the road, but as of right now, i'm very comfortable in saying that Zamazenta is fine, and that we shouldn't mess with it at the moment. It has a lot of answers on both offensive and defensive teams. Answers that aren't even that bad, might I add.
Exactly! Zama has so many splashable checks on all playstyles, idk how people even dare to say it's broken. What does Zama do into a fat team, who may have anything from Dondozo to Gliscor to Moltres to Mola to Sinistcha to Gholdengo who can all wall it? I've never seen Zama break a fat team in my life, and I don't think it ever will unless they REALLY rely on status to stop it which is rare. HO also techs for it, as I mentioned earlier with Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, and Tera Flying Roaring Moon. There aren't counters, but they force it out once, which is often enough on an HO team.
This can be a number of reasons tbh. Some people just don't like the idea of a wall of stats like Zamazenta in the tier (which i've always pondered on, tbh). Others dislike it's gameplan of "Iron Defense, Body Press, Crunch, and my 4th move is whatever I felt like that day", which also pretty valid, at least from my PoV.
Again, from my eyes, it's strong enough to where it's basically a pillar of the tier, but i'd still say it's flawed enough to stay here. I'm just mentioning why some people hate it so much
Fair. I think the main reason is that it punishes HO and can sometimes cheese out games with an unexpected Substitute. However, I don't think it punishes HO hard enough to be banned, nor is Sub a good enough jumpscare to make it broken.
I don’t think a mon that can invalidate a play style (while being fine to useless vs others) helps the meta. It just contributes to its matchupiness. There was no reason to bring this Mon down to OU just because we refuse to address the broken shit already here. Well, Zama checks Kingambit (broken), Ogerpon-W (hella broken), and Kyurem (broken), so its healthy!!
Gen 9 is looking like a lost cause.
Doesn't invalidate a playstyle in the slightest LMAO, in fact I'd even say it's healthy. As I keep mentioning, numerous HO mons have ways to force it out and keep up pressure, which is often enough for a HO team. Plus HO teams also often run Gholdengo as a spinblocker. The idea that Zama invalidates HO is a lie.
No Pokemon that hasn’t been banned to Ubers has ever had the combination of sheer natural bulk and speed that SHITmazenta has. Not only is it nigh impossible to OKO, but it’s nigh impossible to outspeed as well. The only thing that can hold the dog back is the average IQ of the people who use it.
It doesn't matter that you can't outspeed and OHKO it (you can btw, you're straight up lying) you can 2KO it and wall it with the pokemon I keep mentioning here. Stop lying and sit the fuck down.
Edit: okay this was a bit harsh but Zama has numerous checks and counters that you can slap on multiple playstyles.
Every Booster Energy user except for Great Tusk loses to its common coverage options and Dragapult gets 2KOed by Crunch even with no attack investment. Your best bet is to TWave it (because of how common Tera Fire is becoming) and pray that you can get a full para turn in order to Hex it to death. 4A in particular is nearly impossible to wall, only reliably losing to Gl*scor, the two metal birds, and those two fat fucking fishes or a Tera. The fishes and birds are not often seen on offensive playstyles and are often tasked with checking a lot more things than just the dog, and as for the scorpion, we both know that suspect test is coming. Deoxys-Fast and Raging Bolt exist but they’re kinda ass and not seen a lot on H-O.
It’s literally just physical Darkrai but even fatter and uglier. I personally despise the constant Rapid Spin/Bulk Up pseudo-double dance but Great Tusk is much healthier for the meta than that thing.
Things that outspeed and OHKO Zamazenta
-Deoxys-Speed
-Specs Dragapult
-Booster Speed Iron Valiant
-Choice Scarf Enamorus
Things that 1v1 Zamazenta one time and force it out
-Booster Speed Iron Moth
-Booster Speed Iron Valiant
Things that half-check Zamazenta and usually force it out
-Landorus-T
-Gholdengo
-Wisp Dragapult
-Alomomola
-PhysDef Slowking-G
-Primarina
-Dragonite
Things that wall Zamazenta
-Zapdos
-Moltres
-Gliscor
-Sinistcha
-Pecharunt
This not enough for you? Also, Dragonite, Gholdengo, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, and Tera Ghost Pokémon all fit on HO. Also, Landorus-T, Moltres, Enamorus, Alomomola, Slowking-G, and Primarina fit on offense.
If you want a healthy metagame, ban the unhealthy mons. All of them. Kingcheap, Ogerbroad, IceUber, Flying Scorpion, Dark Nightmare, String Cheeseman, Fenris Wolf, and Long Neck. And you can also drop that piece of Rock Salt into an ocean trench and bury it.
The meta would thrive with all those mons gone.
Unfortunately, as much as I'd love that, it's unrealistic. We can push it as much as anyone would like, but I don't think it'll happen.
Also, that's mostly unrelated to the post you're responding to.
If you think Zama invalidates offense, then play the tier. It doesn’t. There are numerous checks and a ton of timely Tera Ghost options.
If you want to argue a couple of Pokemon are independently broken, I welcome this and applaud efforts to share visions of the tier, but spewing fear-mongering nonsense is not the optimal play.
I experimented with Deoxys-Fast before already and it sucked, same thing with Ival. Choice Specs are too rigid for H-O and Choice Scarf is for people with absolutely no skill at all. Enam and Ival can’t OKO and will die to Heavy Slam and Dragapult and Deoxys-Speed absolutely cannot switch into it barring a Focus Sash because of Crunch. Imoth dies to Stone Edge, Dragonite losing its Multiscale is disastrous, admittedly I didn’t consider Lando but it’s a cheap piece of shit, Gliscor is thankfully going to get suspected, who the fuck runs physically defensive Glowking lmao, half-checks are half-checks, the Roosters die to Stone Edge and the UU ghosts die to Crunch and are also UU.
Did you just not read my post?
Thank you finch for saving my life and my marriage and my chicken wings
A lot of this is just you not knowing how to play HO. You don't hard switch on HO. You sacrifice. Play the damn playstyle before talking :sob:
Can we try to go a day without double/triple posting while half of them are off topic? This is not discord and there are forum rules to adhere to.
Not saying this to give you trouble or stir anything up. Please message me privately with questions. Thanks.
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You most certainly hard-switch in some scenarios (I say this as a HO addict). Play the damn playstyle before talking.
My bad LMAO. Alright so back to the topic uhhh yeah Zama isn't broken because it has numerous checks on offense and HO such as Iron Moth, Ival, and Gholdengo who force it out
Also to dead by daylight, often the best way to deal with Zama on an HO team is to just sacrifice your sweeper and go into Moth/Ival/Ghold to force it out and keep up pressure. That's the general plan against Zama, because hard switching is unsafe. Dnite/Bulky Ghold HOs can afford to do that, but it's not all of them.
Wild statements. Deo-S is a great wallbreaker in the tier that can pressure zama both before and after tera. I-val can simply just encore zama into ID and force it to tera, meaning it wins 1v1.
Also no, specs and scarf are bad on Deo-s, but LO or boots sets are great.
They can switch in once and either force it out or make it tera, which is absolutely in the HO's favour. Also Dragapult/Deo-S can take one Crunch and that's more then enough.
Stone edge is less common on Zama, and Iron moth typically runs Substitute, so it can simply scout out the set and tera if needed. Dragonite will take that trade if it can stop the scary setup sweeper. Physically defensive Glowking is a set, and even specially defensive variants can take one hit. Zapdos can take stone edges quite well and para zama, while moltres can take one and either roar it out or wisp it. The UU ghosts are good mons, sinistcha is A- rank on the tier list, skele is alright, and pecha is rising, so I would count it.
Finally, Zama can't have every move it wants. After ID, BP and crunch, it has to choose between sub, roar, rest, heavy slam and stone edge, all crucial moves it needs to deal with its checks. Most teams can pack an answer to both (I-val+the contact birds beat most zama sets) just by slapping on great mons.
Just because zama does great against offensive teams doesn't mean its broken. These playstyles have multiple outs against this mon. It isn't broken, its simply just a top tier mon. Also tera ghost can potentially flip the matchup, which in HO's case, is worth it to get rid of the mon that threaten them a lot.