Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Wild statements. Deo-S is a great wallbreaker in the tier that can pressure zama both before and after tera. I-val can simply just encore zama into ID and force it to tera, meaning it wins 1v1.
Also no, specs and scarf are bad on Deo-s, but LO or boots sets are great.

They can switch in once and either force it out or make it tera, which is absolutely in the HO's favour. Also Dragapult/Deo-S can take one Crunch and that's more then enough.

Stone edge is less common on Zama, and Iron moth typically runs Substitute, so it can simply scout out the set and tera if needed. Dragonite will take that trade if it can stop the scary setup sweeper. Physically defensive Glowking is a set, and even specially defensive variants can take one hit. Zapdos can take stone edges quite well and para zama, while moltres can take one and either roar it out or wisp it. The UU ghosts are good mons, sinistcha is A- rank on the tier list, skele is alright, and pecha is rising, so I would count it.

Just because zama does great against offensive teams doesn't mean its broken. These playstyles have multiple outs against this mon. It isn't broken, its simply just a top tier mon. Also tera ghost can potentially flip the matchup, which in HO's case, is worth it to get rid of the mon that threaten them a lot.
I agree. That's what I've been trying to say. HO teams have numerous, numerous ways to handle Zamazenta though a combination of half-checks, threats that force it out, and Pokémon that take its hits. While it is definitely good into HO, it absolutely does not invalidate one of the strongest and most common playstyles in SV OU.
 
I don’t think a mon that can invalidate a play style (while being fine to useless vs others) helps the meta. It just contributes to its matchupiness. There was no reason to bring this Mon down to OU just because we refuse to address the broken shit already here. Well, Zama checks Kingambit (broken), Ogerpon-W (hella broken), and Kyurem (broken), so its healthy!!

Gen 9 is looking like a lost cause.
Can we all agree that doomer comments like these are supremely unhelpful? “Gen 9 is looking like a lost cause” then why are you here dude? There are plenty of people enjoying Gen 9, no need to spread negativity for the sake of it.
 
The following Pokemon fit onto offense:
  • Gholdengo (Colbur TWave, NP Recover, TrickScarf, and Tera Fairy all used and check Zama barring Tera Dark or LO)
  • Sinistcha (Universal Zama check barring defense drops immediately)
  • Iron Valiant (flimsy check, but Encore, Tera Ghost, Moonblast, etc. all common)
  • Moltres (not on HO, but arguably most common pivot on BO and beats it without Stone Edge or Tera Fire)
  • Raging Bolt (almost always Tera Fairy or Tera Ghost with the occasional Tera Bug even, all of which do the trick here)
  • Dragapult (1v1s it barring Tera Fire on Wisp or shenanigans)
  • Great Tusk (on teams weak to Zamazenta, Tera Ghost is very common when using Rocky Helmet, which can give you a safety net, which is even safe into RestoChesto if Knock Off — otherwise, it’s not a Zamazenta check, but this patchwork is common for many things and the nature of Tera after all)
  • Hatterene (checks all variants besides Heavy Slam, which is more rare than ever on ID sets and can even be Tera Water’d around on AoA sets if you’re desperate)
  • Pecharunut (has become a good pivot on BO recently, but still closer to fringe than staple — obviously a great Zamazenta answer)
  • Landorus-T (less common nowadays, but RH + EP still functions as a soft check to non-Rest variants and a good check to AoA lacking Ice Fang in particular)
  • Tera Blast Fairy Iron Boulder is becoming relevant again, Tera Blast Fairy Kingambit is constantly solid, Tera Blast Fairy Roaring Moon is gaining a little traction, etc. and this isn’t just for Zamazenta as they hit Great Tusk and various other targets
  • Dragonite with DD + Encore or DD + Tera Blast Flying/Fairy does the trick
  • Even things like Primarina can be a one time check, Wisp Slither Wing on Sun answers it, Enamorus checks it, and either Sticky Web user can both slow it down and 1v1 it barring Tera
Sometimes it’s a multi-Pokemon solution, sometimes it’s not linear, and sometimes it requires managing a playable game state for Zamazenta to not do you dirty, but the argument Zamazenta invalidates offense is flat-out wrong. It’s a good piece of the metagame that offers a lot, but has counterplay. If anything — please don’t take this the wrong way — it’s a bit of a skill check for team builders.
 
Unfortunately, as much as I'd love that, it's unrealistic. We can push it as much as anyone would like, but I don't think it'll happen.

Also, that's mostly unrelated to the post you're responding to.
If you think Zama invalidates offense, then play the tier. It doesn’t. There are numerous checks and a ton of timely Tera Ghost options.

If you want to argue a couple of Pokemon are independently broken, I welcome this and applaud efforts to share visions of the tier, but spewing fear-mongering nonsense is not the optimal play.
I gave my full list of brokens in the next post. “Broken checks broken + Tera” is a feature this Gen and there are numerous interactions among them that contribute to rationalizing that each of the mons are healthy. Recap:

Kingambit
Ogerpon-W
Kyurem
Gliscor
Darkrai
Gholdengo
Zama
Raging Bolt

And I have a personal loathing of Garganacl not because it is “broken” but that Salt Cure belongs in the uncompetitive cheese pile with other strategies we have outlawed.
 
And I have a personal loathing of Garganacl not because it is “broken” but that Salt Cure belongs in the uncompetitive cheese pile with other strategies we have outlawed.
I don't fully understand the standing that Salt Cure is cheesy and uncompetitive. Being annoying isn't strictly uncompetitive, otherwise, Iron Moth with it's 50/50 chance of boosting SpA would have been axed awhile ago.

Maybe you can explain your stance on that to me?
 
I gave my full list of brokens in the next post. “Broken checks broken + Tera” is a feature this Gen and there are numerous interactions among them that contribute to rationalizing that each of the mons are healthy. Recap:

Kingambit
Ogerpon-W
Kyurem
Gliscor
Darkrai
Gholdengo
Zama
Raging Bolt

And I have a personal loathing of Garganacl not because it is “broken” but that Salt Cure belongs in the uncompetitive cheese pile with other strategies we have outlawed.
Darkrai is nowhere near broken now. The “broken” sets barely surface now and it’s just a great piece of offensive utility that has enough checks.

Ogerpon-W perhaps limits balance, but we are seeing teams adapt to it more than ever with a few Grass types and I think it’s actually more balanced, while still very good, than it has been in a while. Think it’s a big stretch to include it here.

Kingambit you can argue as broken and I won’t lose much sleep, but it is not exactly compromising the metagame right now and it can clearly exist in a good metagame as we have seen repeatedly.

Raging Bolt just is not broken. It is able to flip a KO against Ground types with Tera a ton, but you’re able to double-check it with offense easily enough to make it a fair trade. And balance teams have enough counterplay to it.

Zama is not broken and we just went over this. You saying it invalidates offense reflects a lack of understanding of the actual interactions and teambuilding practices. Please reevaluate.

Gholdengo lol this is like only something Big Stall discord thinks now and even with them spamming 5 on surveys it barely stays in the 2s, be so real with me right now.

We just suspected Kyurem. Gliscor is very likely next. The bulk of this list is exaggerated and the rest is in the hands of suspect voters.
 
Darkrai is nowhere near broken now. The “broken” sets barely surface now and it’s just a great piece of offensive utility that has enough checks.

Ogerpon-W perhaps limits balance, but we are seeing teams adapt to it more than ever with a few Grass types and I think it’s actually more balanced, while still very good, than it has been in a while. Think it’s a big stretch to include it here.

Kingambit you can argue as broken and I won’t lose much sleep, but it is not exactly compromising the metagame right now and it can clearly exist in a good metagame as we have seen repeatedly.

Raging Bolt just is not broken. It is able to flip a KO against Ground types with Tera a ton, but you’re able to double-check it with offense easily enough to make it a fair trade. And balance teams have enough counterplay to it.

Zama is not broken and we just went over this. You saying it invalidates offense reflects a lack of understanding of the actual interactions and teambuilding practices. Please reevaluate.

Gholdengo lol this is like only something Big Stall discord thinks now and even with them spamming 5 on surveys it barely stays in the 2s, be so real with me right now.

We just suspected Kyurem. Gliscor is very likely next. The bulk of this list is exaggerated and the rest is in the hands of suspect voters.
The only mons that can be argued to be brokens rn imo is Ogerpon-Wellspring (arguable), Kingambit (arguable) Kyurem (not bannable) Gliscor (will be suspected) and Gholdengo (only if you play stall) at least imo
 
I don't fully understand the standing that Salt Cure is cheesy and uncompetitive. Being annoying isn't strictly uncompetitive, otherwise, Iron Moth with it's 50/50 chance of boosting SpA would have been axed awhile ago.

Maybe you can explain your stance on that to me?
The whole of Garganacl is unhealthy as fuck. It has an immunity to status conditions, a free Ghost resist, and what is essentially unresisted Toxic that directly counters its two most reliable checks. That’s one form of counterplay just flat out eliminated and another form of counterplay that is severely limited. It can very easily beat its other checks with the right Tera. There is absolutely no way to switch into Garganacl except for a Grass type, Salt Cure is an extremely brainless no-risk move and it can easily stall out super effective hits with the asinine combination of Protect and Recover. Oh, and it also has access to the most spammable attacking moves in the game, Earthquake.
 
Darkrai is nowhere near broken now. The “broken” sets barely surface now and it’s just a great piece of offensive utility that has enough checks.

Ogerpon-W perhaps limits balance, but we are seeing teams adapt to it more than ever with a few Grass types and I think it’s actually more balanced, while still very good, than it has been in a while. Think it’s a big stretch to include it here.

Kingambit you can argue as broken and I won’t lose much sleep, but it is not exactly compromising the metagame right now and it can clearly exist in a good metagame as we have seen repeatedly.

Raging Bolt just is not broken. It is able to flip a KO against Ground types with Tera a ton, but you’re able to double-check it with offense easily enough to make it a fair trade. And balance teams have enough counterplay to it.

Zama is not broken and we just went over this. You saying it invalidates offense reflects a lack of understanding of the actual interactions and teambuilding practices. Please reevaluate.

Gholdengo lol this is like only something Big Stall discord thinks now and even with them spamming 5 on surveys it barely stays in the 2s, be so real with me right now.

We just suspected Kyurem. Gliscor is very likely next. The bulk of this list is exaggerated and the rest is in the hands of suspect voters.
The mons on the list that we’ve suspect tested have all either been banned already in the past or voted Uber by a majority of the suspect voters, albeit just shy of a 60% supermajority threshold. Including Tera. Nothing here is farfetched. And the “not now” hedging is indicative of broken checking broken, as there are interactions among the pokemon listed as well as what people are able to reliably account for in the builder. People for a while now have just accepted the matchupiness, and that there are mon(s) with sets and Tera types that you just lose to off rip.
 
Darkrai is incredibly annoying with "Guess if I have icebeam or sludge. Oh! It's actually twave and your zama just got crippled!"

Idk if broken because I am objectively bad at building and don't know enough answers, but it doesn't feel healthy to me even post sleep ban
 
The mons on the list that we’ve suspect tested have all either been banned already in the past or voted Uber by a majority of the suspect voters, albeit just shy of a 60% supermajority threshold. Including Tera. Nothing here is farfetched. And the “not now” hedging is indicative of broken checking broken, as there are interactions among the pokemon listed as well as what people are able to reliably account for in the builder. People for a while now have just accepted the matchupiness, and that there are mon(s) with sets and Tera types that you just lose to off rip.
Ogerpon was never suspected, Kingambit has not been suspected in the last year, Raging Bolt has never been suspected, Darkrai has never been suspected, Zama has not been suspected in the last year and never had a remotely close suspect, Gholdengo has never been suspected, etc.

I mean for one, fact check yourself. But also: trying to use year+ old verdicts to hold any weight now is just bad. And this broken-checks-broken rhetoric falls apart when they hardly even check each other (don’t pretend that there’s some match-up triangle as the tier is far more nuanced than that)
 
Why not bring up year+ verdicts? They are still relevant today. Kingambit is still on peoples radar because most people wanted it gone, and probably still do (I’d bet on it). Kyurem will still be on people’s radar for the same reason. Gliscor was banned, but is back now and about to be suspected again.

Darkrai, Zama, Raging Bolt, and Ogerpon-W are “new(ish)” additions to the tier that simply haven’t had their time in court yet because of bigger fish to fry.
 
I feel like all the talks about checks/counters for Zama only apply to the standard ID+BP sets, and not entirely towards 4 Attack Zama. The difference between full attack investment and none is huge. Most Ghold sets even defensive don’t appreciate a fully invested crunch from 120 Attack.

I just feel like Zama sets a bad precedent for what can and cannot be allowed in the tier.
 
I feel like all the talks about checks/counters for Zama only apply to the standard ID+BP sets, and not entirely towards 4 Attack Zama. The difference between full attack investment and none is huge. Most Ghold sets even defensive don’t appreciate a fully invested crunch from 120 Attack.

I just feel like Zama sets a bad precedent for what can and cannot be allowed in the tier.
Ghold is like the only Pokémon whose matchup flips from AOA. Every wall, still walls it. Every Booster mon, still forces it out. The only one that may change are possibly Pecharunt and Sinistcha but they're so bulky that it often doesn't matter.
 
In order to have the needed Ban percentage the next time Kyurem suspect happens, we gotta remove the the perceived positive presence of the ice dragon, which conditions some Do Not Ban votes. That is the fact that it checks (quite badly, but still) all of Gliscor, Waterpon and Raging Bolt. All of those happen to be Mons I personally think to be more broken than Kyurem (who is more unhealthy due to Freeze Dry freezes than broken). So, if we Ban one or more of those, there will be less reasons to keep Kyurem in the tier and maybe enough people vote Ban. The incoming Gliscor suspect should be a starting point of this strategy.
 
If you want a healthy metagame, ban the unhealthy mons. All of them. Kingcheap, Ogerbroad, IceUber, Flying Scorpion, Dark Nightmare, String Cheeseman, Fenris Wolf, and Long Neck. And you can also drop that piece of Rock Salt into an ocean trench and bury it.

The meta would thrive with all those mons gone.
donald-trump-speech-bubble.png

No Pokemon that hasn’t been banned to Ubers has ever had the combination of sheer natural bulk and speed that SHITmazenta has. Not only is it nigh impossible to OKO, but it’s nigh impossible to outspeed as well. The only thing that can hold the dog back is the average IQ of the people who use it.
I swear sometimes some people need to go out and try Gen 2 or Gen 3 and realize that a mon is not broken bc it's nigh impossible to OHKO.

Zamazenta was not designed to be OHKO'd (tbh i don't know what Zama was designed to be bc GF cooked up a trash box art legendary). Weavile was designed to be OHKO'd. Darm-Galar was designed to be OHKO'd. Clodsire was not meant to be OHKO'd. I lack the pertinent qualifications on game design to be speaking on the matter although I'm sure that DaddyBuzz and Bold School (those are the two posters I know of) would at least sorta agree that mons are designed with a similar concept as other beasts/heroes/characters in other RPGs (speaking without having played any videogame besides Pokemon in years). Like you have the glass cannon, the cleric, the wall, the speed demon, the bulky strong slow ones... Zama tbh was not really designed to be a mon, as GF's official format encourages for you to bring the strongest restricted mons, but in what it has, it's clearly a mix of wall and speedster. You're not supposed to OHKO a wall, and that's okay. It even lacks a ton of utility or disruption tools which make it quite lackluster as a wall. It's an awesome mon in this format. With that said...

I've spoken on this multiple times but the idea of tiering is completely artificial in mons context, thus there is no set or defined threshold on what makes a mon bearable or not. Most of the times it depends on context, but like, guys, we're like two years into SV OU. Gambit and Ghold and Zama ARE the threshold. You kick them out, you reset the tier, all the work that has been done on finding sets and team archetypes and niches can go out the window. Get the fuck used to them, ffs.
 
View attachment 679433

I swear sometimes some people need to go out and try Gen 2 or Gen 3 and realize that a mon is not broken bc it's nigh impossible to OHKO.

Zamazenta was not designed to be OHKO'd (tbh i don't know what Zama was designed to be bc GF cooked up a trash box art legendary). Weavile was designed to be OHKO'd. Darm-Galar was designed to be OHKO'd. Clodsire was not meant to be OHKO'd. I lack the pertinent qualifications on game design to be speaking on the matter although I'm sure that DaddyBuzz and Bold School (those are the two posters I know of) would at least sorta agree that mons are designed with a similar concept as other beasts/heroes/characters in other RPGs (speaking without having played any videogame besides Pokemon in years). Like you have the glass cannon, the cleric, the wall, the speed demon, the bulky strong slow ones... Zama tbh was not really designed to be a mon, as GF's official format encourages for you to bring the strongest restricted mons, but in what it has, it's clearly a mix of wall and speedster. You're not supposed to OHKO a wall, and that's okay. It even lacks a ton of utility or disruption tools which make it quite lackluster as a wall. It's an awesome mon in this format. With that said...

I've spoken on this multiple times but the idea of tiering is completely artificial in mons context, thus there is no set or defined threshold on what makes a mon bearable or not. Most of the times it depends on context, but like, guys, we're like two years into SV OU. Gambit and Ghold and Zama ARE the threshold. You kick them out, you reset the tier, all the work that has been done on finding sets and team archetypes and niches can go out the window. Get the fuck used to them, ffs.
Great post with solid insight imo. Only thing I'd say is that Zama has the same spread as Zacian, so it was probably designed to be an all-rounder with bulk, attack, and speed.
 
Why not bring up year+ verdicts? They are still relevant today. Kingambit is still on peoples radar because most people wanted it gone, and probably still do (I’d bet on it). Kyurem will still be on people’s radar for the same reason. Gliscor was banned, but is back now and about to be suspected again.

Darkrai, Zama, Raging Bolt, and Ogerpon-W are “new(ish)” additions to the tier that simply haven’t had their time in court yet because of bigger fish to fry.
At the same time, many of those "newish" additions (not just the ones you cite as broken) have also drastically altered the metagame such that the Year-old Verdicts do not apply to the present context effectively. Even if Kingambit is indeed still overpowered in DLC2, it would be for a very different roster and options (or lack thereof hypothetically) for counterplay than the circumstances of that original suspect. Arguments to suspect them now need to focus on now: even IF nothing has changed for them in your view, citing the old results advances nothing unless you can cite how the circumstances differ in favor of a ban now.

Gliscor was dropped back because DLC2 brought in a great deal that made it less immediately oppressive (Busted or not) such as Ice Beam Darkrai, Taunt Lando-T picking up, Kyurem, Triple Axel users, etc. Even if it has proven controversial again, it wasn't illogical to give it another run.
I gave my full list of brokens in the next post. “Broken checks broken + Tera” is a feature this Gen and there are numerous interactions among them that contribute to rationalizing that each of the mons are healthy. Recap:

Kingambit
Ogerpon-W
Kyurem
Gliscor
Darkrai
Gholdengo
Zama
Raging Bolt

And I have a personal loathing of Garganacl not because it is “broken” but that Salt Cure belongs in the uncompetitive cheese pile with other strategies we have outlawed.
Let the record show I am a big Gholdengo hater, but to call it "broken" is a massive reach (considering you cite Garg as a personal loathing by comparison in this same post), and it's arguably a reason I hate it because it's competitive by all means, just incredibly unfun as a concept.

More to the point, Gliscor being a major point of contention and up for a Suspect feels contradictory to the claim that people are "rationalizing" it as healthy, as opposed to arguing if it's bad enough to get the boot. Raging Bolt meanwhile is just not a mon I hear any particular complaints over, as in it's barely in conversations I witness rather than it being complained about and then argued against as "rationalizing" would suggest.

And on the Dog that started it all, I'd have to ask how Zamazenta invalidates offense outright, which is a very strong claim to make as opposed to simply being strong into it.
I experimented with Deoxys-Fast before already and it sucked, same thing with Ival. Choice Specs are too rigid for H-O and Choice Scarf is for people with absolutely no skill at all. Enam and Ival can’t OKO and will die to Heavy Slam and Dragapult and Deoxys-Speed absolutely cannot switch into it barring a Focus Sash because of Crunch. Imoth dies to Stone Edge, Dragonite losing its Multiscale is disastrous, admittedly I didn’t consider Lando but it’s a cheap piece of shit, Gliscor is thankfully going to get suspected, who the fuck runs physically defensive Glowking lmao, half-checks are half-checks, the Roosters die to Stone Edge and the UU ghosts die to Crunch and are also UU.

Did you just not read my post?
I take umbrage with some of the dismissals in this post a well. I won't go into the mons that have Coverage options listed since that's just kind of a "well in THIS match" situation for either side, but some of the others are just non-starters to address, and compared to my immediate prior point I'm aware several of these answers are not Offense pieces.

First of all, the Specs and Scarf point, which I assume is referring specifically to Iron Valiant since Deo-S is too fast and Coverage reliant to work well with Choice Items in OU. When you say "Scarf is for people with absolutely no skill" (rude wording aside), is this saying the Scarf player has no skill because they are using it, which would suggest they're either bad, or using a set that is so strong it takes no skill to pilot? Or do you mean it only wins against people who have no skill because it's a bad set, on a mon that is famous for its speed control and has some of the most spammable STAB options it could ask for? This doesn't really dive into why the sets are bad, whether into Zamazenta or in OU in general.

Lando-T you dismiss as "a cheap piece of shit," but it's sitting in the S-Ranks so you can't exactly ignore its place in the tier, especially considering the next one I took issue with in "the UU Ghosts die to Crunch and are also UU." Lando-T is a heavily used and very viable OU mon, so if being UU is enough to dismiss a mon as an option, then being high OU should make it significantly more notable.

And finally, the UU Ghost point, mostly on Sinistcha because I agree Pecharunt is fairly niche in OU. Sinistcha is actually ranked higher in OU than UU because of the differing formats favoring its traits in one meta. I won't reiterate my contention with "UU so it doesn't matter" in light of that and Lando, but this also just... isn't correct. Despite the SE Coverage, 4A Zama requires very significant chip to 2HKO standard spread Sinistcha considering either Boots or Leftovers as items.

252 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 124-148 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Meanwhile Sinistcha turns it into set-up fodder by Strength Sapping the damage away and debuffing Zama's already iffy-offenses, allowing it to either stack Calm Minds or force it out for a Teammate (which matters a lot since Zama leans on Dauntless Shields to tank some Physical opponents), not to mention Matcha Gotcha to fish for burns that would permanently ruin it (Fire Tera being committed makes Zama extremely exploitable by a handful of Mons like the S-Rank Grounds or Ogerpon-W, without discussing if it's even a common option).

All this in regards to 4A Zama because the coverage constraints and lack of ATK investment makes its damage outside Body Press incredibly underwhelming, doubly so if it elects for Roar instead of a 3rd Attack, widening the options to check significantly to include things like Bulky Ghold, or Booster Valiant (which didn't count because of Heavy Slam on 4A I guess) for a few examples.

Dismissing the half-checks is also a bit disingenuous because of Dauntless Shield playing into what makes Zama so sturdy, and as noted, burn spreaders for Zama to commit to Tera when its best match-up is into Offense, a playstyle that has a lot less to fear without the surprise factor sinking so much momentum on a bigger progress maker than the Blanket Check with okay-damage.
 
can we please just single out a mon instead of just shitting on each other for 90% of the thread, zama-h is prob not the biggest problem and perosnally i think gliscor is (even if kyurem made it balanced then idk how well that works as an excuse if one mon is all it took for it to be seen as suspect worthy)
 
can we please just single out a mon instead of just shitting on each other for 90% of the thread, zama-h is prob not the biggest problem and perosnally i think gliscor is (even if kyurem made it balanced then idk how well that works as an excuse if one mon is all it took for it to be seen as suspect worthy)
Honestly, if Kyurem stays legal, I'm fine with action stopping here and now. I'm fine with SV OU how it is, I think it's a fun and varied tier with a lot of solid glue mons and fun niche picks. The only ban I actually want
right now barring Kyurem is an admittedly unrealistic Tera Blast ban.
 
I do dislike playing against Gliscor. Honestly if something is only borderline broken, but is also just incredibly unfun to play against it should get the boot. Other games are fine banning pieces of their game for creating unfun play patterns so I don’t see why Smogon can’t do the same.
 
At the same time, many of those "newish" additions (not just the ones you cite as broken) have also drastically altered the metagame such that the Year-old Verdicts do not apply to the present context effectively. Even if Kingambit is indeed still overpowered in DLC2, it would be for a very different roster and options (or lack thereof hypothetically) for counterplay than the circumstances of that original suspect. Arguments to suspect them now need to focus on now: even IF nothing has changed for them in your view, citing the old results advances nothing unless you can cite how the circumstances differ in favor of a ban now.

Gliscor was dropped back because DLC2 brought in a great deal that made it less immediately oppressive (Busted or not) such as Ice Beam Darkrai, Taunt Lando-T picking up, Kyurem, Triple Axel users, etc. Even if it has proven controversial again, it wasn't illogical to give it another run.

Let the record show I am a big Gholdengo hater, but to call it "broken" is a massive reach (considering you cite Garg as a personal loathing by comparison in this same post), and it's arguably a reason I hate it because it's competitive by all means, just incredibly unfun as a concept.
A mon doesn’t have to shit on half the tier for it to be unhealthy for the metagame. Hence, why I harp on Garg just being a generally uncompetitive POS. Gholdengo’s infamy (and Gliscor to an extent) has always been just exacerbating the unpleasantness of centralizing every battle, and the builder, around hazards (removal). Not for being “unbeatable” or steamrolling the tier. They just make a less fun and vibrant metagame overall.
 
Back
Top