Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Finchinator said:
Primarina dies to +3 ID and doesn’t OHKO. Moon has to exhaust Tera and loses the 1v1 still if the Zama clicks Tera. Gambit doesn’t even always beat Zama unless it clicks SD first and it is Tera Blaat. Hex Pult loses hard to Fire and can lose to Dark despite hitting, which are second and third most common Tera types on it. Moltres doesn’t beat Rest consistently and at best can just Roar it out. Gliscor loses 1v1 to Rest unless Tera Ghost. TWave Ghold and Zapdos, which can still lose depending on Tera, are the only answers there.

Above all, Rest Zama is just insanely good into offense. It’s hardly even just a win condition. It’s a check to a substantial portion of the tier. It’s a gameflow controller. It’s able to last longer than virtually anything on these paced teams. And it’s able to be an initial swap into strong Pokemon like Kingambit, Wellspring, Tusk, etc.

Sometimes it functions as a win condition despite all of this depending on the trajectory of the game, but calling it overrated is just silly.
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It's overrated because it gives up its ability to hit fairies and moltres a lot of the time, and I don't find it nearly as powerful or overwhelming as many others do. That's my opinion. I just do not see it as powerful as other players may, which is why I consider it overrated. This is an opinion. I am not pushing the idea of it being objective. People can disagree with you and be correct.

Also, no. All the answers I listed either 2KO it or status it except for Deoxys-Speed having a hard time switching in. Your opinion is not objective, people can disagree without there being a clear right and wrong.
 
RainebowValiant said:
I've noticed from our scattered interactions that you always act like people disagreeing with you are wrong, which is a bad mindset regardless of how strong of a player you are.
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To put it bluntly, you’re arguing that RestoChesto Zamazenta, which has been among the best sets on one of the best Pokemon with a myriad of tournament and ladder success, is overrated and not good. You then listed Pokemon as alleged checks or counters that almost all of aren’t.

There are plenty of things in the eye of the beholder. There are plenty of times when I am wrong. I will be the first to admit that — look at the initial Wake test or Volc QB, but the fact that this is even a discussion is silly and just shows you should probably lurk more or engage with the tier more consistently.
 
Finchinator said:
To put it bluntly, you’re arguing that RestoChesto Zamazenta, which has been among the best sets on one of the best Pokemon with a myriad of tournament and ladder success, is overrated and not good. You then listed Pokemon as alleged checks or counters that almost all of aren’t.

There are plenty of things in the eye of the beholder. There are plenty of times when I am wrong. I will be the first to admit that — look at the initial Wake test or Volc QB, but the fact that this is even a discussion is silly and just shows you should probably lurk more or engage with the tier more consistently.
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I DIDN'T SAY IT'S NOT GOOD RAAAAAAAAAAAA READ MY POSTS ??!!!!! IT'S A SOLID SET BUT I CONSIDER IT SLIGHTLY OVERRATED GODDAMNIT?????? :sob: I'm dipping I can't take this shit
 
RainebowValiant said:
It's overrated because it gives up its ability to hit fairies and moltres a lot of the time
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This is literally why the set is so good though. You outlast/beat all of these initial responses constantly. You don’t need HSlam to beat Valiant, Clef, or Primarina — Valiant and Primarina lose the 1v1 the second time through easily and do outright against Tera Steel. Clef loses outright if it’s Steel or Fire. Moltres doesn’t win 1v1 and at best can Roar it out and force a Rest.
 
Finchinator said:
This is literally why the set is so good though. You outlast/beat all of these initial responses constantly. You don’t need HSlam to beat Valiant, Clef, or Primarina — Valiant and Primarina lose the 1v1 the second time through easily and do outright against Tera Steel. Clef loses outright if it’s Steel or Fire. Moltres doesn’t win 1v1 and at best can Roar it out and force a Rest.
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Moltres absolutely wins the 1v1 bruh. The only way moltres loses is if either zama has stone edge (which is rare often times) or it doesn't have roar against a rest zama (please use flamethrower u turn roar and roost wisp is unnecessary imo)

Edit: zapdos also wins the 1v1 for similar reasons as though it doesn't have roar (unless I am mistaken) paralysis is really good and stone edge is only 2x supereffective against it
 
UltraSword said:
Moltres absolutely wins the 1v1 bruh. The only way moltres loses is if either zama has stone edge (which is rare often times) or it doesn't have roar against a rest zama (please use flamethrower u turn roar and roost wisp is unnecessary imo)
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Flamethrower doesn’t come close to a 3HKO. Hurricane doesn’t see any usage anymore — they’re mostly Flame/Uturn/Roar/Roost and Wisp doesn’t change much here.

Neither wins the 1v1 and it just ends up in a Roar to delay it. That is my point. You need more than just Moltres for Zama, especially with how common Tera Fire is. Moltres is a great piece, but need some permanent answer or core for it as well.

Mandating this much attention is a large part of why Zama is so good.
 
Finchinator said:
Neither wins the 1v1 and it just ends up in a Roar to delay it.
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...uuuuuuuuh that is winning the 1v1 bruh. If it is forcing zama out it gets rid of all its boosts (iron defense dauntless whatever) and allowing for something that can kill zama to come in later. Plus burn obviously cripples zama beyond belief
 
UltraSword said:
...uuuuuuuuh that is winning the 1v1 bruh. If it is forcing zama out it gets rid of all its boosts (iron defense dauntless whatever) and allowing for something that can kill zama to come in later. Plus burn obviously cripples zama beyond belief
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No, not at all. Imagine I ID to +3 and do 40% to your Moltres the first time around as you click Roar. Even if I take a Burn, I can rest it off, but now Moltres can no longer check a Valiant or Gholdengo the next time around.

Roaring something out isn’t winning the 1v1 and Moltres isn’t a standalone Zama answer.
 
Finchinator said:
No, not at all. Imagine I ID to +3 and do 40% to your Moltres the first time around as you click Roar. Even if I take a Burn, I can rest it off, but now Moltres can no longer check a Valiant or Gholdengo the next time around.

Roaring something out isn’t winning the 1v1 and Moltres isn’t a standalone Zama answer.
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I can roost bruh. I understand where you are coming from (I really do) but rest zama especially can't beat moltres. It just doesn't do enough damage and it can be burned. It isn't like zama can't be burned again and even if it rests a second time it is screwed because it is asleep
 

RainebowValiant said:
I DIDN'T SAY IT'S NOT GOOD RAAAAAAAAAAAA READ MY POSTS ??!!!!! IT'S A SOLID SET BUT I CONSIDER IT SLIGHTLY OVERRATED GODDAMNIT?????? :sob: I'm dipping I can't take this shit
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As a serial lurker for years, its posts like this that make the thread feel like a real chore to read sometimes. Please consider if acctually your adding anything of note to the discussion before posting
 
UltraSword said:
I can roost bruh. I understand where you are coming from (I really do) but rest zama especially can't beat moltres. It just doesn't do enough damage and it can be burned. It isn't like zama can't be burned again and even if it rests a second time it is screwed because it is asleep
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You click Roar and there’s a 3/5 chance that you are forced out against most teams. Then, you can check Zama again and force the same interaction and likely a Rest, but if you’re pairing Zama with a Valiant, Lum/Fire Gambit, Fire/Flying Nite, Taunt Tusk, NP Ghold, etc. then that’s enough damage to where if they keep tempo up, Moltres can be cornered. And if you can’t force the issue, you shouldn’t be playing offense to begin with.
 
Yoink 0 said:
As a serial lurker for years, its posts like this that make the thread feel like a real chore to read sometimes. Please consider if acctually your adding anything of note to the discussion before posting
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I'm sorry to say this but it's funny that this post itself adds nothing to the discussion.

Anyways lighthearted tone now! Do you guys think Toxapex is decent in OU? It's just so hard to fit but it's extremely good on stall and good on bulkier structures. I'm more looking for its uses on balances because I love it.
 
Finchinator said:
You click Roar and there’s a 3/5 chance that you are forced out against most teams. Then, you can check Zama again and force the same interaction and likely a Rest, but if you’re pairing Zama with a Valiant, Lum/Fire Gambit, Fire/Flying Nite, Taunt Tusk, NP Ghold, etc. then that’s enough damage to where if they keep tempo up, Moltres can be cornered. And if you can’t force the issue, you shouldn’t be playing offense to begin with.
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No but seriously though how about we agree to disagree before this argument gets any worse
 
I think Zama belongs in Ubers (along with 7 other mons) but we are having a multi-page discussion on it being overrated? Overrated how?

Anyway, I’ll insert my Basculegion-F Stan post: (taking full credit for her 0.6% usage!)

Basculegion-F (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Shadow Ball
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Idk why this girl is not on the VR. Good sweeper that is immune to contact effects (special swift swim is great). Use her if weak to Zama. Tera Dragon deserves a mention to troll Thunderclap and Grassy Glide. IMO the power boost of Water is still better.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Basculegion-F Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Rain: 398-470 (102.5 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Basculegion-F Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Rain: 246-289 (63.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Basculegion-F: 192-226 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drops Zama like a bad habit.
 
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RaikouLover said:
I think Zama belongs in Ubers (along with 7 other mons) but we are having a multi-page discussion on it being overrated? Overrated how?

Anyway, I’ll insert my Basculegion-F Stan post: (taking full credit for her 0.6% usage!)

Basculegion-F (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Shadow Ball
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Idk why this girl is not on the VR. Good sweeper that is immune to contact effects (special swift swim is great). Use her if weak to Zama. Tera Dragon deserves a mention to troll Thunderclap and Grassy Glide. IMO the power boost of Water is still better.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Basculegion-F Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Rain: 398-470 (102.5 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Basculegion-F Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Rain: 246-289 (63.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Basculegion-F: 192-226 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drops Zama like a bad habit.
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Why not run modest on it instead? it's already stupid fast under rain.
There's also the issue of rain being kinda bad in current gen since all it had to its name was archaludon who's been banned for a long time. Neither of the rain setters have any use outside of setting rain and pretty much half your team is dead weight outside of a given 6 turns where they're about as good as any other OU threat is for 100% of the game. Especially in a current meta which has recently developed the idea that teams need a defensive backbone, 7 turns is nowhere near enough to drag down a team hard enough to win.

If you really wanted to build rain you could probably run peli+basc+dnite where basculegion chunks out a bunch of damage and dragonite cleans up with +1/+2 espeeds and then pretty much whatever for your other slots.
 
RainWaiv said:
Why not run modest on it instead? it's already stupid fast under rain.
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On that front at least, Basculegion with Modest misses some Benchmarks that seem notable for a Rain team, going from 560 to 510 under rain.
  • +1 Moon
  • +1 Valiant
  • Scarf Meowscarada
  • +1 Ogerpon (most common likely Teal but I've heard the others dabble with Trailblaze)
  • +1 Iron Moth (only a threat with Energy Ball and chip, listed for consistency among relevant 1-turn Speed tiers)
Some of these depending on moveset can present a serious danger to Bascu depending on the move she locked in, and in the case of Moon, can actually set up a Dragon Dance if locked into anything besides Ice Beam to potentially run rampant.

With how important momentum and tempo is to a Weather team, minimizing chances for decently relevant Revenge Kills to grab it back from a Wallbreaker can be important. I'd have to see if Modest nets any notable Breakpoints for KOs
 
RainWaiv said:
Why not run modest on it instead? it's already stupid fast under rain.
There's also the issue of rain being kinda bad in current gen since all it had to its name was archaludon who's been banned for a long time. Neither of the rain setters have any use outside of setting rain and pretty much half your team is dead weight outside of a given 6 turns where they're about as good as any other OU threat is for 100% of the game. Especially in a current meta which has recently developed the idea that teams need a defensive backbone, 7 turns is nowhere near enough to drag down a team hard enough to win.

If you really wanted to build rain you could probably run peli+basc+dnite where basculegion chunks out a bunch of damage and dragonite cleans up with +1/+2 espeeds and then pretty much whatever for your other slots.
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It’s the speed tier, ya. Rain is challenging to use right now mostly because of four mons- Uberpon, Raging Neck, Kingcheap, and Shimo (Kyurem).

I can vouch that Peli + Treads + Dragonite + Swift Swim is pretty solid. You just need to add something for Kingcheap (Keldeo, Sam-H, or your own Gambit work fine). Some use Iron Jugulis.

Kyurem is a real PITA. AV Crown is pretty lit on rain. I’ve toyed around with Scizor and dreamt about giving Jirachi a go. Though tbh running another steel type is whack. The whole point of rain is to spam water moves and win in 20 turns. IMO Just lay rocks and trash talk Kyurem. We can beat him with speed. (Faster dragons, Keldeo, Fairy Manaphy, Head Smash Basculegion, etc)
 
RainebowValiant said:
GIVE BLISSEY WISH TELEPORT

GIVE TOXAPEX PARTING SHOT

GIVE MOLTRES DEFOG

GLORY TO BIG STALL

MAKE STALL GREAT AGAIN

Anyways glory to stall aside what are yalls opinions on the UU-to-be Deos? Why did it fall off yet again? Is it bad? I'd personally say it's good, yet hard to fit due to little defensive utility, which is why it's falling despite being a good mon.
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Parting Shot Toxapex? You smoking dat Herba Mystica kush
 
RaikouLover said:
I heard about a Chestoresto Kommo-O making waves. Can anyone verify? Is that mon heat?
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I’ve only seen it in blunder & suaves Team Rocket Takeover series if you want to check out the video to see it in action (they didn’t make the set, they got it from somewhere). It looks heat, getting an omniboost and healing back to full seems great. It’s Boomburst + Flamethrower, tera normal.
 
RaikouLover said:
I heard about a Chestoresto Kommo-O making waves. Can anyone verify? Is that mon heat?
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It's a good set but it suffers from pretty much all the issues standard kommo-o sets suffer from. Generally predictable, doesn't really like ghosts/steels, weak to revenge killers, stuff like that.

Having full HP is super nice esp on a mon that's only really viable at 66% HP max but losing a moveslot and a +1 SpA from throat spray is a pretty big tradeoff. It's also one of those sets where you have to build specifically around it to be good.
 
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