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Posting here for visibility since it's already on the Discord
October Shifts:
Drops: Mawile-Mega moved from NDOU to NDUUNDUUBL Serperior moved from NDOU to NDUU Swampert-Mega moved from NDOU to NDUU
Raises:
Nothing!
Mega Maw was unbanned on ladder by mistake, this should be fixed sometime soon (UPDATE: This has been fixed. You can put away your Centiskorches/Mega Aggrons/*insert other unviable mons here* you were using to cope check this thing now). Mega Mawile has not been unbanned.
NDUU Weather Report: Forecasted for 200% more paralysis
I think Serperior is a very interesting and relevant reintroduction into the tier and want to discuss it alongside other metagame thoughts. This will be a long post so buckle up as I talk about every single Mon I currently find notable in NDUU.
Serperior was theorized to be a dangerous and intensely annoying tool before it dropped, but after playing a few games with it and seeing it used in a few different ways, I think it will shape up to be a nice addition in the teambuilder as a combination utility mon, Paralysis spreader, speed control option, and Rotom-W check.
SubGlare will definitely be the most used set, with Scarf not seeming like it will provide much revenge-killing capacity. With 56 HP, Serperior's Substitute can always survive a Rotom-W Hydro Pump, allowing it to be a fantastic punish for Rotom-W. It also switches in well on Defog, making it even more impossible to hit Serperior through Substitute, Paralysis, and an Evasion boost. This utility is fantastic, with Serperior being the only real fast Grass-type and also not minding taking Burn as much as things like Zarude or Iron Leaves. Leftovers will probably be standard on Substitute sets, but I have seen Synthesis Taunt sets on Sticky Web teams, though I am unsure what defensive counterplay they target in specific. Speaking of defensive counterplay, lets discuss the plethora of moves Serperior can run and what counterplay they handle.
Hidden Power Fire:
Hidden Power Fire hits essentially every Steel-type looking to check Serperior (and Amoonguss). Unless you are at +4 or higher though, these Mons will not just drop to HP Fire, so you have to wear them down over a longer period of time, often alongside the use of Paralysis and Substitute to break through.
Dragon Pulse:
Dragon Pulse hits every Dragon-type that can switch into Serperior, while also hitting Mega Venusaur harder than Hidden Power Fire would due to Thick Fat. It's important to note that both of these coverage options often leave Serperior unable to immediately threaten either Steel-types or Dragon-types, even at +2.
Hidden Power Ground:
Hidden Power Ground is for exclusively Iron Moth, allowing you to immediately OHKO it at +2. However, this leaves you even more helpless against both Steels and Dragons.
When theorizing Serperior, I was initially concerned that it would be incredibly obnoxious or potentially even broken. With SubGlare, you can theoretically break through any structure. However, Serperior is not going to be broken, as 8 Leaf Storm PP alongside 4x Grass-resists on nearly every team with Celesteela, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Hydrapple, and Iron Moth being incredibly splashable will leave Serperior unable to cleave through teams by itself. It is important to note that Serperior has a BASE 75 SPECIAL ATTACK, which is hilariously inept at breaking our defensive staples. Hell, even Iron Moth outheals Leaf Storm damage at +6 with Morning Sun!
None of this is even mentioning the Offensive counterplay we have for Serperior.
Each Mon except Greninja can take a neutral Leaf Storm and fire back with a OHKO. Iron Boulder can use a Z-Move or KO from a high range with Choice Band, Greninja can Ice Beam or Sludge Wave, Mega Aerodactyl can break through Substitute with Dual Wingbeat while Mienshao can as well with Triple Axel, and Victini simply takes little and can U-turn or V-Create.
With all of this incredibly splashable offensive and defensive counterplay, alongside Serperior's lackluster Special Attack and limited PP, I don't believe Serperior will be broken or even hard to deal with. But by no means do I think that Serperior will be useless.
With these Mons being staples Serperior has many opportunities to hit the field. Typically this means Serperior will be able to paralyze one of its checks, but it can also occasionally throw out Leaf Storms to chunk these Mons.
Serperior will likely serve as a support role meant to accentuate more dangerous attackers like Iron Moth and Mienshao. Speaking of those two, lets discuss the faces of Offense post-Gapdos Ban.
I'll probably do another long post either now or later discussing this thing in more depth, but currently I'm of the opinion that Iron Moth is a healthy presence in the tier and is incredibly helpful in limiting the often immense defensive counterplay that exists in our tier. Looking at the top defensive Mons in the tier, Iron Moth single-handedly provides teams with a way to pressure them offensively and play around them defensively. Clefable, Aegislash, Amoonguss, Skarmory, Celesteela, Rotom-W, Buzzwole, and Mega Venusaur are amazing defensive options that can often be annoying to wear down, and Iron Moth can switch into most of them and force them out, or force them out when pivotted in by a partner. Iron Moth also has defined counters in the Ground-types, can be played around using offensive Mons like Greninja, Iron Boulder, and Tyranitar, hates Knock Off, and provides teams a way to play around Burn and Poison in a defensive metagame. It facilitates offense much like Celesteela and Amoonguss and friends facilitate fatter teamstyles. And another Serperior check is never a bad thing to have.
Mienshao is definitely the single biggest winner from the Gapdos ban. I'd probably place it at A+ or A tier, with Life Orb being a premier breaker and Choice Scarf being the premier choice of speed control used. With such a passive damage-centric metagame, having an offensive Regenerator Mon that can use Choice Scarf without fear of eventually being worn down by hazards is amazing. As difficult as it seems to handle it, mons like Aegislash, Hydrapple, Scizor, and Iron Moth can help offensive teams withstand its assault until its teammates can be dispatched, while defensive answers like Buzzwole, Amoonguss, Hippowdon, and Slowbro can withstand hits and either stay healthy through Regenerator of their own or simply their immense bulk. Mienshao brings another great offensive presence to the metagame that can help break through defensive teams, often alongside Iron Moth, as well as much needed reliable speed control.
Greninja is so good and has been underexplored for too long. Specs sets rip through everything bar Celesteela and the Blobs, and Battle Bond sets are like Kryptonite to Offense and HO. I've been using it a lot more and if it weren't for its weakness to hazards and inability to really switch into anything, it might be broken. Use Greninja more, it is so fantastic and brings so much offensive utility to a team.
Zeraora is my go-to pivot and speed control guy on teams where I don't want Mienshao. It facilitates its teammates so well with Knock Off, Toxic, and Close Combat disincentivizing Ting-Lu from switching in and crippling other Ground-types, like Hippowdon and Gastrodon. With Grounds not switching in, Zeraora can Volt Switch on nearly everything. Zeraora also brings the side benefit of almost 6-0ing most HO teams by itself, able to OHKO every member or chip it into range with Volt Switch. Just a fantastic Mon.
I have a love-hate relationship with this thing after SapoDaG30 destroyed me with it in R10 of NDUU Summer Seasonal. Mega Venusaur is such a fantastic defensive piece, with seemingly no long-term counters other than Scizor, which can be removed if Hidden Power Fire is slotted. It can also serve as an incredible offensive option alongside Magnezone. This thing gives me flashbacks to Iron Hands, not in its brokeness but rather its ability to live nearly any hit and trade. Great all around offensive tank, and should be used on more Offense teams as a Ting-Lu-esque blanket check to many threats.
Ting-Lu will honestly never be bad in the tier. I am very glad that it didn't rise, as that would have shaken up the tier immensely in likely a detrimental way. It is the best hazard setter, Iron Moth check, Aegislash check, Mega Venusaur check, Mienshao check. Wait what?
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 408-484 (79.3 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 264-312 (97.4 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Life Orb damage
What a beast. Literally.
Probably the most reliable Mienshao check in the tier, taking nearly nothing from Close Combat and Knock Off and retaliating back with strong attacks paired with Toxic or Bulk Up, as well as reliable recovery.
These two should be explored more together, and I highly recommend using them for those of you tired of Mienshao + Iron Moth. Physically Defensive Amoonguss is able to Regenerator off all the damage done by U-turn + Stealth Rocks from Life Orb Mienshao, and Slowking can easily take hits from Iron Moth, and Regenerator off U-turn damage as well. Make sure to pair these two with an offensive check to Iron Moth and Mienshao though, so you can Teleport to them whenever Iron Moth decides to actually attack or you land a Spore after Mienshao doesn't U-turn.
I could talk about NDUU for hours (I LOVE NDUU!!!) but yea these are my thoughts about the most notable aspects of the metagame. I feel like the BO-centric of this metagame best allows for skill expression, both in the teambuilder and in game. HO and Offense are viable and cool, with players like sealoo and Rafadude always innovating new builds, and Fat and Stall will always exist in interesting ways, thanks to Runo and your's truly. The tier will continue to be innovated with tours and Room Tours providing healthy ways to be involved. The ladder being poor is truly the only unfortunate part or our tier. Maybe we should leave it alone though, with the ladder often containing... dark actors.
The darkness will be unchained.... just you wait....
Alright I'm back with the promised Iron Moth post. I was planning on making this later, but there has been a lot of discourse about Moth that boils down to "its broken" or "its not" without actually diving into the metagame, the influence Iron Moth has on defensive structures and offensive teams, and if Moth is actually broken or not. I want to explore both sides of the argument as objectively as possible, and then provide my rationale for why I believe Moth is currently a balanced option in the tier. For the sake of being concise I will try to avoid listing Dex info or any information regarding Sets that can be readily found elsewhere in the forums.
Pro-Ban/Broken:
The rationale behind the argument that Iron Moth is broken typically stems from its access to Fiery Dance and Morning Sun, making it capable of boosting and breaking past defensive staples typically tasked with handling special threats like Chansey, U-turn which bypass other common checks like Ting-Lu, and the plethora of coverage Moth can use to dispatch other checks like Hippowdon, Slowking, and Gastrodon. With its typing and Heavy-Duty Boots making Moth difficult to wear down, it can dance in and out of battle for the entire game, threatening so much of the metagame, forcing switches, and making progress.
I'm going to quote TBIC106 here (with their permission) to further explore the Pro-Ban arguments.
TBIC brings up some fantastic points here. Offense teams often find it very hard to build reliable offensive structures when Iron Moth Bulky Offense "solves the tier" as TBIC puts it. Moth BO structures are reliable because they can fit both a good defensive structure to handle the plethora of attackers in the tier as well as rely on Moth's breaking power alongside partners, typically Fighting-types like Mienshao or Buzzwole, to handle the checks it does have. TBIC states you have to run multiple soft checks, and can still lose to Booster SpAtk sets on webs, meaning that teams tend to look homogenous.
The second argument here is that there are no true "counters" to Iron Moth. The distinction between a check and counter is an interesting one, and to anyone curious to hear about it in more depth than I will discuss it here, please check out BKC's Video on the subject. To discuss a tier specific example of a check vs. counter, Assault Vest Tangrowth is a Choice Specs Enamorus check, while Chansey is a counter. Aegislash is a Mienshao check, while Buzzwole is a counter.
To explore why this is, we must look at the damage calculator. Tangrowth by no means is a rock solid Enamorus answer. With Stealth Rocks up, Enamorus can easily 2HKO Tangrowth. However, AV Tangrowth is able to safely switch into Enamorus, determine what move it has locked into, and then on well-built or healthy teams, can go out into a resist. If Enamorus locks into Moonblast, Tangrowth can switch into Scizor, while Regenerating off most of the damage deal. Chansey on the other hand takes little from Specs Enamorus. It is not even 4HKOd by Specs Moonblast, and for that reason can safely stay in, set Stealth Rock, throw out a Toxic, and just generally do its own thing.
The same thing is true for Mienshao. Aegislash can safely switch into U-turn, Close Combat, Fake Out, and Poison Jab. In a 1v1 scenario, Aegislash can scout Mienshao's move choice with King's Shield. However, Aegislash fears taking a Knock Off, and therefore can find it difficult to reliably switch into Mienshao to limit it. Buzzwole, on the other hand, takes almost no damage from all of Mienshao's moves, and can easily switch in and create offensive pressure of its own, Roosting every 5 or 6 switch-ins to remain healthy.
Now that we've explored the idea of a check vs. a counter, lets return to TBIC's statement. Skeledirge and Flygon are checks so long as they don't get Poisoned by Sludge Wave, after which they become fodder for Iron Moth. The previous statement suggests that every Pivot Moth check, such as Hippowdon, Gastrodon, and Slowking, are destroyed by Booster SpAtk. Essentially, you can temporarily scout Iron Moth, but eventually it will overrun your team.
Here, Moth and Gapdos (but mostly Moth) work together ruthlessly to break down Stall, running Flygon, which is supposed to be a "counter", out of Roost PP. (Also yes I am aware I said "Moth is broken" back then, I have since changed my mind).
Anti-Ban/Balanced: We've discussed the Pro-Ban argument, but lets discuss why many people think that Moth is balanced and even healthy for the metagame. This argument typically stems from the idea that there is an abundance of reliable Moth counterplay, both for Iron Moth itself as well as the teammates that it is typically supported by. Not only this, but Moth is fairly easy to cripple or outright KO by Mons it is supposed to switch into, like Clefable, Scizor, and Celesteela.
Huge shoutout here to Runo and R1C3M4N who gave fantastic analysis regarding Moth and put to words more eloquently than I could Moth's place within the metagame.
All 3 of the players I've quoted here are incredibly talented and knowledgable about the metagame, and I appreciate them for sharing their perspective. There are quite a few words here for the Balanced side of the argument, so let me synthesize what was said.
Runo argues that there are quite a few reliable checks to Iron Moth, with Ting-Lu, Slowking, Blissey, Tyranitar, Skeledirge and Flygon being viable, alongside many different soft defensive counters and offensive counters and priority providing another avenue to dispatch Moth. In addition to this, like I mentioned, the opportunities Moth gets to switch in are seldom guaranteed, as Clefable and Scizor can cripple Moth with Knock Off, and Celesteela can just KO with Earthquake (or otherwise annoy with Leech Seed + Protect). Finally, Moth leaving would be an overall detriment to the metagame, as it would be harder to reliably check the huge amount of defensive paragons we have in the metagame.
R1C3 brings up some similar points. Moth often finds it hard to switch in directly, given that Clefable and Scizor can Knock Moth and cripple it. Additionally, the meta is starting to adapt to Iron Moth, with bulky Tyranitar and Gastrodon picking up in usage, allowing a wider variety of teams to handle Moth. The last point R1C3 brings up is that Moth is not often the centerpiece of these Moth BO teams that TBIC mentioned, generally facilitating scarier breakers like Mienshao or Mega Gallade. This, alongside its "reliable" recovery in Morning Sun, allows Moth to have such a well-defined place in the metagame as an enabler, one that could be taken over by a different Mon.
Counterarguments
Ok now that we have gone over both sides, I want to provide some counterarguments to further see where Moth stands in the metagame. Lets start with the Pro-Ban side.
While I agree that Offense as a playstyle can currently be difficult to build, I disagree with the idea that the metagame is solved by Iron Moth BO teams. While these Moth BO teams are fantastic, reliable into most teamstyles, and consistent, they often have glaring weaknesses to strong Fighting-types and other powerful breakers packing Fighting coverage, like Choice Band Iron Boulder. While Booster SpAtk is threatening, it is by no means the most popular Iron Moth set, with the usage stats for October suggesting that only 13% of Iron Moths are Modest Booster SpAtk (though to be fair it is impossible to know the exact number, as players could be utilizing Timid Booster SpAtk). Even Booster SpAtk Moth has counterplay, however, with Tyranitar, Flygon, Skeledirge and Ting-Lu all able to take hits from it and take it down.
Next, the idea that Moth has no counters is difficult to defend. While yes, Sludge Wave Poison cripples all Iron Moth checks, this by no means suggests that these checks are any less reliable. Many Kyurem counters hate getting Frozen. However, options like Chansey can Natural Cure the Freeze away, and other options can be Heal Bell'ed. Iron Moth Sludge Wave, however, is a much less spammable STAB option, with many more resistances and an immunity, albeit coming off a higher Special Attack stat. R1C3 discusses this, however, stating that if you are able to position your Iron Moth in a way to fish for these poisons, then you deserve the reward of eventually removing that check. These things, in my opinion, indicate that a 10% chance on a risky STAB type cannot singlehandedly indicate that a Mon has no counters.
In fact, the game linked below shows how despite a Critical Hit from Iron Moth, something even less likely than Sludge Wave Poison, I was able to defeat the Iron Moth with good play, even with a team weak to it with a primary check removed. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-2213853508
Additionally, the idea that Moth checks (mainly Flygon) are useless into everything else is incorrect. While Flygon is a NU Mon, that doesn't mean it doesn't have viability. Hell, a Mon like Dhelmise, which is RU, can gain viability by supporting Specs Iron Moth. Flygon is a useful tool to check Rotom-W, Victini, and Zeraora, which are a few problematic threats for Stall teams, the only archetype that Flygon really fits on. Other Moth checks like Ting-Lu and Tyranitar are fantastic on their own, with Ting-Lu being one of the best blanket Special Walls in the tier, and Tyranitar being the face of Sand Offense. Hippowdon and Gastrodon provide hazard support, Slowking can pivot, and Skeledirge can also check Mega Gardevoir, the most brutal stallkiller in the tier.
Finally, I want to discuss the replay I provided. In that replay, Iron Moth was able to overwhelm a "counter" in Flygon over the course of 100 turns, and go on to defeat the Stall team. But I want to note what I think is the biggest flaw in the argument that Moth is broken. In that replay, no offensive pressure was put on Elvira's team. Now I know what you are thinking. How can Stall, the passive playstyle, put on offensive pressure? Well in that entire game, Gapdos, a Mon weak to hazards, switched into Stealth Rock a grand total of one time. Flygon was also Knocked Off, which made it much easier for Elvira to wear Flygon down and force it to use its Roost PP. The teams that struggle most with Iron Moth are the teams that put on no pressure, allowing for Moth to come in as many times as it would like and wreak havoc.
We've discussed the Pro-Ban's arguments flaws, but by no means is the Anti-Ban argument flawless, and so lets discuss that real quick as well.
The main issue I have with the Anti-Ban side of the argument is the lack of discussion regarding Pivots. Maybe this is a larger issue about how U-turn and Volt Switch are just broken moves, but Iron Moth is such a fantastic facilitator of other offensive Mons. R1C3 does discuss this, and mentions how maybe we need to ban Mienshao or other breakers instead, but fails to note the key annoyance of Mienshao, and how Mienshao can U-turn for free on most of Moth's checks, as Tyranitar, Ting-Lu, and Flygon are terrified of Close Combat and Skeledirge and Slowking hate Knock Off. Mienshao + Moth is such a potent offensive weapon, with the ability to threaten the entire metagame together. This is why I suggested that the use of Amoonguss and Slowking together needs to be explored as an option to handle these two.
Additionally, Moth is not always switching hard in. In fact, more often than not, Moth is being pivotted in by a partner, usually Mienshao but sometimes Zeraora or Rotom-W, or even Slowking. When this happens, Iron Moth is even more annoying, as it remains unfettered by potential Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Earthquakes, etc. In these situations, risky play is sometimes forced if you want to remain in control of the battle, as switching into your defensive answer just to get U-turned on is awful. Though often, the psychic damage endured is more than the actual damage on your check.
Finally, certain counters like Skeledirge and Flygon can get Pursuit-trapped, often by Bisharp but sometimes by Tyranitar, though Tyranitar and Morning Sun Moth have tension.
I wrote this before the Grand Finals of Summer SSNL, but I also wanted to add that I don't discuss Specs Iron Moth here for a reason. While I do think it is a viable and real set, it requires so much team support or strange partners (Dhelmise) to function, and so I don't think it warrants a discussion in the "Is Moth Broken" conversation, mainly because the "Broken" set is generally considered Boots Pivot.
Conclusion Iron Moth is at a contentious place in the meta. It seemingly teeters on the edge of being broken and balanced, similar to its Fiery Dance often ending games or leaving the enemy team barely intact. I've layed out why I and some other players believe that Moth is not broken. With its ability to offensively check so much of the defensive metagame, it allows us to have reliable offensive counterplay in such a bulky metagame. It facilitates other checks while being exploitable defensively and offensively. Keep in mind, throughout this entire discussion, we did not dive very deeply into the offensive counterplay for Iron Moth.
I can understand the desire to Ban Iron Moth. I used to think the same thing. But I think that desire stems from just a different understanding or desire for where the metagame should stand. TBIC stated this: "To me, a mon with no counters or only counters that are ass into everything else cannot be healthy." And I completely agree. But I don't think the Mons that check Iron Moth are ass into everything. And Banning Iron Moth would only push the meta further into a defensive place. Runo and I are the "stall guys". We innovate defensive playstyles. But Iron Moth ensures that Stall isn't unbreakable. Even Fat currently is in a fantastic place, being able to handle pretty much every attacker in the tier. Removing Moth would make breaking the infinite combination of defensive structures more difficult in a way that would be detrimental to the tier.
I cannot speak on what the Council will do regarding Moth, but I will say that currently, I believe the meta is in a healthy and enjoyable place, where plenty of team styles are viable. Moth BO is strong, but so are Mega Gallade comps, or Greninja teams, or Sand. Just check the Sample Teams. In my opinion, a metagame focused primarily around Bulky Offense teams with room for HO, Offense, Balance, Fat, and Stall is the healthiest a tier can be, allowing for adequate skill expression both in the teambuilder and in game.
One more time, huge shoutout to TBIC, Runo, and R1C3 for sharing their thoughts and allowing me to better develop arguments for both sides of the conversation. Iron Moth is maybe more controversial than both Gapdos and Latios were, so I wanted to really go in depth and explain my stance. And if you read this post and come to the opposite conclusion, thats great! I'd love to hear more discourse surrounding Iron Moth, especially since it has been suspect-tested once already, putting the Mon itself and the Council in a strange position.
Seeing as the thread has stagnated a bit, I would like to talk about some of the metagame's hitters. The following are in no particular order -
The Big 5
As given by the recent radar post; these five are considered by much of the playerbase to be the biggest contributors to the current state of the metagame's teambuilding perspective, and will generally attract the most attention when deciding on counterplay.
I'll start things by saying there's a reason why Boulder is considered the most proactive threat and on top of everyone's threatlist, not much comes close to the sheer offensive potential it provides on the basis. Choice Band is tried and true as always, boasting the mightiest of cleaves due to its general spammability and lack of coverage drawbacks. Swords Dance is also extremely powerful and with time, only seems to have gained more and more ways of breaking past the traditional physical walls used to check; Psychium Z to overwhelm the Grounds and Buzzwole, the bulky Super Boulder variant mentioned by Runo allowing it to survive attacks it normally wouldn't, or even LO and/or Megahorn for OHKOing Grasses and Psychics without the unreliability of Z-Crystals. In some ways, you could even say Boulder is like the perfect offensive Pokemon, being extremely fast and strong as well as flexible in whatever matchup it needs to perform against.
However, do I think it's broken? Or necessarily too good at doing what it does for itself or other Pokemon? Not really. At the end of the day, Boulder still defines the high-risk high-reward type of threat; it still needs to be positioned well to take advantage of any of the aforementioned walls, and isn't to be played carelessly as it's not-so absurdly strong as to break the offensive mold, often needing a boosting item or Swords Dance to break through most targets, or absurdly fast outside of booster energy to where it isn't vulnerable to being revenge killed given the inherent downsides of its middling physical bulk and typing, being weak to all relevant forms of priority. This is also without saying that many of the offensive options mentioned often come at the greater expense of other matchups. Overall, while absurdly good and splashable, Boulder isn't too much beyond this to where I would favour any sort of action on it in the meantime.
First off, to get into more about the relevant interactions and details regarding the mon - do review Danbear's post on it above, which is excellent in its own right and of much greater quality compared to mine.
As for my own thoughts, I could easily start this off with the positives. To put it simply, Solchroma is excellent at supporting and enabling teams to function as a cornerstone of offense, being a perfect fit for nearly every offensive teammate imaginable as one of the few threats able to pressure and gauge momentum against the combination of Fairies, Steels, and Grounds at once, its not surprising to see why said role remains a bit controversial as it is effective by evidence. Alongside the infinite longevity of HDB + Morning Sun, Fiery Dance complements this playstyle extremely well by allowing it to snowball against reactive play. It's also very fast when accounting for the occasional booster speed and modest spa variations on webs, both of which are perfectly viable at circumventing certain offensive counterplay options, and arguably defines the most important speed tier regardless of set.
That said, Solchroma's given history only means it is fair to evaluate the nature of its playstyle in the context of current metagame dynamics once again. With the rise of Sand teams, M-Aerodactyl as an offensive glue as well as faster threats dropping, previous counterplay options like Ting-Lu and M-Latias thriving, and even newer ones such as Blissey and Skeledirge seeing more experimentation and often being paired with existing counterplay, I feel that Solchroma is just rewarding as it is potentially doomed to fail - Especially if it's not elaborated on enough that certain defensive options it could otherwise take advantage of safely are capable of punishing by crippling it with status (Clefable) and/or Knock Off (Scizor), or just by outright KOing it with a coverage move (Celesteela, Tangrowth).
On the flip side, when played well, Solchroma provides the tier with an offensive pivot that provides solid (albeit situational) utility into defensive staples such as Clefable and Aegislash, a way to force otherwise suffocating defensive cores into playing more proactively, and even a valuable speed control option on HO, as many people above me have already cited. Despite this, I don't feel as if Solchroma is forcing excessive counterplay, nor is it punishing beyond the traditional manner of getting turns wrong or being unable to make progress versus its team.
Ultimately, Solchroma's place of contention in this metagame continues to feel like an uphill battle; where it remains demanding from the fundamental standpoint that justifies previous arguments, does it feel like new arguments happen to come into the fray against it or in favour of other Pokemon capable of replicating its offensive role every day. In the end, I'm all for keeping it around in the current metagame, mostly to see if it's capable of finding new ways to adapt itself or if said positive traits will continue to flow relative to its surroundings.
To me, depending on the matchup, Aegislash can either feel like the most influential force of the lot or the easiest to deal with as a whole. This is because unlike the others on this list, Aegislash also packs an equally flipsided defensive profile which can incidentally work to its benefit! Rambling aside, even though I've talked about this Pokemon quite a lot with contention, I always find myself doing so based on a few key attributes associated with it, sometimes more apparent and sometimes less depending on the metagame iteration.
Fast forward to what we currently see, Aegislash typically runs with a (whooping) total of 3 sets - Offensive SD, Mixed Attacker, and Defensive, often with various degrees of item and EV flexibility. Many of these sets will often try to make the most of Aegislash's ability to force damage with the power of Ghost and (potentially) Fighting + Steel coverage, positioning it to where it can do so consistently and effectively.
A large portion of outcry I find myself hearing is that each of Aegislash's sets are especially lacking in overlapping answers; SpDef Celesteela and Ting-Lu can easily find themselves in a losing position against SD > Special; Rotom-W and Buzzwole can quickly be put into abusable circumstances when faced with Special > SD; Leftovers + Toxic and/or Substitute is able to potentially outlast either form. As a whole, the success of these sets will often find themselves being elevated by predicated mistakes. Personally, this isn't to say other present threats or previously banned examples aren't capable of achieving the same feats though, and the question for Aegislash should likewise remain present as it does for everything else of this archetype: 'To what extent am I dedicating my resources to account for it on a broader scale?'
Such leads me to the more concrete aspects - aspects which no matter the use, will always be attached to Aegislash and its effect on teambuilding and in dealing with it as a whole. Unlike most Pokemon, Aegislash also resists a large pool of attacking types and coverage from offensive threats (IBoulder, Latias, Scizor, Tapu Bulu .etc), and with just max HP EVs standard on most bulkier sets, it also easily survives absurdly strong STAB attacks like Earthquakes from Excadrill and Knock Offs from Bisharp and Tyranitar in a pinch, letting it retaliate against them too. To be exact, this level of attacking versatility beyond just the specifics of its set means that in practice, Aegislash has a much easier time preparing for and overwhelming its dedicated checks than you might think!
In the end, whether from the perspective of HO to stall, thoughts articulated to the degree - Aegislash finds itself less of an immediate game-ender and more of a persistent thorn by the side, and it's safe to say bulky offense is not the only teamstyle which it currently restricts as a result.
M-Venusaur was something I was definitely indifferent towards for a while - the drastically faster state of previous metagames meant its innate defensive traits weren't quite as outstanding as they are now. Still, with the much slower pace, it's definitely become more oppressive to face, in part because of how easily it can now allocate said turns to making offensive progress, such as against most of the tier's Waters, Fightings ,and Fairies. M-Venu's coverage in Sludge + EP also hits the majority of switchins, and it can often supplement its prowess with its last moveslot, be it Knock to cripple Steels such as Celesteela and Scizor, Grass coverage to immediately threaten Grounds, or even niche options such as Growth and Leech Seed which can help it win the war of nutrition.
However, no matter the set variation, this is nothing compared to the mon's inherent hax factor and ability to cripple all its defensive switchins, arguably as its biggest selling point in contention. While counterplay certainly exists regardless of the set, notably Psychics such as Mega Latias as well as entry hazards and Sand which can certainly wear it down overtime, none of these appreciate M-Venusaur's ability to dish out passive damage, a trait which is especially terrifying to imagine given M-Venusaur's impressive bulk and ability to facetank these threats in a vacuum, often leading it to forcing trades in its favor.
Honestly, Offensive M-Venu reminds me a lot about of the arguments aimed at Solchroma. Both are extremely strong offensive Poisons that win through the brute strength of their STABs against most teams in the meta, while aiming to outlast others in the long-run. I've even seen several teams incorporating both of them in tandem to more extreme effect as of late, being able to overwhelm each other's switch-ins rather easily. However, unlike Solchroma, with how easily its added defensive profile contributes to its offensive opportunities, this to me makes M-Venusaur a real concern because of how it forces teams to play non-interactively to not get crippled by it as a result.
In tandem with the few tools at its disposal to handle common resists, it cannot be stressed enough that most teams will find the idea of allocating said resources against it to be quite constraining and unreasonable, and I would certainly be in favor of some sort of action.
And finally, the elephant (or rather, super frog) in the room. Here's a complication of recent replays that emphasise what I'm about to mention in regards to Greninja -
As we can see. A recurring pattern in these replays is how easy it is for Greninja to sweep, being very strong and fast, on top of possessing the major caveat of not needing to dedicate a turn to setup - instead doing so by attacking and claiming a KO. Greninja will often break the majority of its soft-checks with just 3 moves in its arsenal, often being able to dedicate the last moveslot to help against whatever offensive counterplay stands against it, be it extra coverage, offensive utility options (Substitute, Protect), or something else.
This leads me to the real reason why I would support some sort of action on Greninja. While I do find it to be suffocating enough to face by itself, it's not like counterplay options don't exist to it on paper - defensive resists such as Hydrapple, Tapu Fini, even something weak to it like Slowking can often survive from full (in Slowking's case, status or Teleport), and miscellaneous bulky Pokemon such as Keldeo which can take any boosted hit and retaliate, while offensive counterplay options like Lokix and Choice Scarfers such as Mienshao and Zarude can pick it off barring the more niche interactions.
On the flip side, the above replays show that outside of very specific counterplay options such as Blissey, not much is able to consistently handle Greninja due to its versatility, unmatched speed, and the ease said teammates have in wearing down the majority of its checks, resulting in circumstances where it is almost impossible to avoid being overwhelmed in the long-run, and leading to the same scenarios which contribute to the perceived 'brokenness' of these offense teams. This is not a sign of a healthy metagame influence, and on account of their success being largely propelled by how easy it is to support a Greninja sweep as opposed to other options, I find it to be the biggest offender of this problem thus far.
Overall, Greninja feels like the biggest pigeonhole in the viability of most offensive and defensive structures, and not something I would be in favor of keeping around. The combination of its near-unparalleled setup ability and building influence leads me to believe it is a little bit too strong.
The Honorable Mentions
To me, these Pokemon are each quite outstanding in their own right regardless of concern, and definitely deserve a special mention for their profound effect as well.
I mostly (again) agree with Danbear on this one. Serperior's varied level of counterplay both factoring and outside of coverage means it's quite containable, but that doesn't mean it isn't a potent enabler with the ability to abuse the various Waters and Grounds, on top of how easy it can be to spread Glare onto crucial targets such as Celesteela for its teammates. Regardless of what I think though, say leaving it out of the discussion altogether would have been quite disingenuous and am glad it was mentioned regardless. Utility sets are also quite cool and welcome to have in a tier lacking fast removal, which should definitely be explored more.
'Alright, but let me give you a final warning. My skills are just as sharp as they've ever been, and I don't hold back!' ~ Yujiro "Molt-Galar" Hanma
Edgy, referential flavor text aside, I do feel that this perfectly encapsulates Goltres's current place in the meta; Often a threat which rarely sweeps games on its own against a prepared team, yet becomes much, much easier to win with given the higher power level of offense and supporting cast. This is particularly due to its own unique setup ability - on top of outspeeding the entire metagame courtesy of Agility, one use of Demon Back (Nasty Plot + Berserk) and a timed Z-Move into defensive check can often be enough to open up opportunities for other threats to take the fold.
However, despite its wallbreaking prowess, decent counterplay options which have always been there to handle it certainly still exist, notably Sand teams, certain SpDef tanks such as Celesteela and Blissey, status from the likes of Slowtwins, and revenge killers such as Zeraora and M-Aerodactyl which can often switch into it and threaten to OHKO it before it gets going. However, I must stress that while said methods of managing threats to keep Goltres in check are healthy by themselves, it only becomes much harder to justify when said checks also have to deal with other late-game threats paired with it on HO, hence the issue I feel is most elevated by some of the threats above.
I have quite the sour relationship with this thing after its series of ups and downs, but can't ignore the strain it puts on this builder nonetheless. As for Hydrapple, it's arguably just as restricting as M-Venusaur is to defense. Multifaceted recovery options + bulk make it an absolute nightmare to face for any defensive team not packing a dedicated pivot (Scizor, Faster Clefable, Blissey, Air Slash Celesteela). There are also few offensive matchups in which it doesn't hold in contention, mostly Solchroma, M-Venusaur itself, and M-Aerodactyl, which it will often be prepared for through EVs and semi-decent health management alone.
Not a great dynamic to have around honestly, though I acknowledge the current potential for other offensive adaptations to help keep it down as things like Draco M-Latias and Triple Axel Mienshao have seen use beyond limiting its opportunities. Offensive Fairy-types (M-Gardevoir, Enamorus, Primarina) are also quite effective at pivoting it into a vacuum and forcing it out, especially as it doesn't always have opportunities with how easily it can also be momentum food for things such as Volt Switch due to its slow and prediction-reliant nature versus said teams, on top of being a magnet for status aliments from the common Ground it finds itself switching into. Consequently, the above defensive traits help make it a boon to most offensive teams, though one with risks which teams cannot overlook or try to sidestep when relying on it.
In the end, while Hydrapple borders in its current threat level, I don't think its inherent traits contribute to it being broken necessarily, nor would the tier end up being better with it removed over other options. What it does however, is skew the common nature that bulkier teams have taken to combat other threats into its advantage, and I think that's more than enough reason to put some respect into its name.
Wanted to shoutout Ting in particular, consistently feels like a top 2 defensive mon with how much value it gets and how much it plays a part in every teamstyle imaginable, from offense to stall. While it would be misleading to call it broken, I do very much appreciate the security it provides and anything less than a mention in this area would seriously be downplaying what it's capable of providing in terms of raw tanking power and utility.
+
Last but not least, does it feel like no playstyle is as timelessly effective as Sand teams are, proven by its immense reliability. The key role it has in facilitating offense and defense means it gets my stamp of approval, but remains still very powerful so I ought to mention it nonetheless.
| Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % | | Excadrill | 27 | 61.36% | 66.67% | | Tyranitar | 18 | 40.91% | 77.78% | | Hippowdon | 8 | 18.18% | 37.50% | *Combining all the replays from NDFL + NDPL + and the recent Summer Seasonal.
And that’s it. While I don’t believe things are at their best, I can appreciate the transparency that has gone into tiering (post-pl action maybe?) and would like to reach out more as a result. What are your thoughts on some of the above? Feel free to let me know.
Finished this like 5 minutes after Iride's post so let's say I picked Apple and Galarian Moltres.Would like to share some thoughts after the most recent VR update and tier shifts (wow NOTHING happened)
Took the set comp spread, but Apple is so stupid that you can even run EVs to live stuff like Moth's Sludge Wave without losing much in exchange. Hydrapple is one of the scariest wallbreakers right now able to setup against a lot of defensive Pokemon here, like Rotom-W, Ting-Lu, Hippo, Slowbro, Gastrodon. Access to Z Moves means it can overwhelm even Steel-types like Scizor and Celesteela, making it a perfect partner for something like Swords Dance Scizor or Mega Gardevoir. Offensive options to switch in directly / revenge kill without taking huge amounts of damage is also a pain considering there are only a few able to do so, making counterplay a bit odd, especially since this thing can live some crazy hits and blow you away with Devastating Drake. Apple acting as a midground vs Boulder / Aegislash to scout coverage from both thanks to Regenerator is also really nice and gives a great defensive utility for any team.
+2 16+ SpA Hydrapple Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Scizor: 300-353 (87.2 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Hydrapple: 268-324 (64.5 - 78%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Hydrapple: 183-216 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Hydrapple: 350-414 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Click Z Boom Moth dead
16+ SpA Hydrapple Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Hydrapple: 306-360 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Was never really a Lokix fan, but the bug is really one of the best revenge killers we have at the moment and annoys offensive builds in general. First Impression picking off chipped Shao, Mega Gardevoir, Boulder, and especially the Broken Water Frog is really good. With tools like U-turn and Knock Off to make answers like Scizor / Clefable / Celesteela way less effective, Lokix is an interesting pick, even if the lack of power can be quite noticeable sometimes. Choice Band is also an option, quite hard to fit on teams, but First Impression and Knock Off from this guy hits like a truck.
252+ Atk Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 380-450 (133.3 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 206-244 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO why this row is so big
252+ Atk Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Boulder: 330-390 (102.8 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lokix Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Scizor: 208-246 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 259-306 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gallade-Mega (M) @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Knock Off
Great pick since half of the current teams are some sort of Mega Venusaur bulky offense / balance with Ting-Lu / Rotom-W / etc, and it's also a Fighting-type that Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Buzzwole, and Latias can't check, meaning you lose a pivot like Mienshao for an even more devastating wallbreaker against this structures. The only problem is finding switch in opportunities, which makes you want to pair this guy with anything that forces Venusaur / Ting Lu / Amoonguss in. Even without setup Mega Gallade is still threatening, mainly for teams using the aforementioned Fighting-type answers, which makes him an interesting pick at the moment.
Have been testing Moltres a fair number of times, and can confirm the bird is quite interesting, it provides a good number of defensive abilities against Aegislash and Alakazam for HOs with an insane wallbreaking potential. Galarian Moltres is one of the best picks for HOs, able to overwhelm Ting-Lu BOs thanks to Taunt and acting as one of the few Pokemon capable of surviving +1 Life Orb BB Gren Hydro Pump at full for these structures. Taunt Galarian Moltres + anything that likes Ting Lu chipped (half of the tier) makes for a great offensive core and I will try to build more stuff with it. Not a fan of Agility since Tyranitar / Lu can easily ruin your day, but it can work under the right circumstances.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 184 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 246-290 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 184 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 246-290 (67 - 79%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
144+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 198-234 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 144+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 234-276 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 64 Def Moltres-Galar: 308-363 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Alakazam is a weird Pokemon right now. A Speed control slower than Boulder and Greninja sucks, which means you need to fit a scarfer somewhere in your team. Zam also has a terrible day finding setup opportunities since 80% of the tier threatens it in some way: Bolder, Greninja, Zeraora, and Mega Aerodactyl (this one can cook your Sash with DWB) are faster, and priority is everywhere since Scizor and Aegislash are super popular picks. Slowbro, Clefable, Mega Venusaur, and Skarmory can cripple Alakazam with Twave / click Knock or even Brave Bird (broken frog) to ruin your day. Zam requires insane positioning to do something currently, making it not a good choice like months ago.
I'm enjoying building teams again after a good while, so expect a baazar post in a couple of weeks.
I think moth is the tier king, with nothing rivaling the respect it forces in the builder along with understated defensive capabilities vs aegi/sciz/apple in some capacity. It is a very flexible offensive tool that you can rarely go wrong with which is why I put it at 1.01
maybe a bit of a hotter take, but sciz is my other S, with it having the freest knock in the tier, a trend that has followed sciz throughout its long tenure in other UUs (see SS UU). This enables it to be a very efficient progress maker in just about any matchup while being the most threatening cleaner in the entire tier. Other sets such as SD + Bug Z with enough speed can blow up rotom on more offensive structures asw, with band also perhaps be relevant. Defensively, it is key for keeping boulder/zam/mvenu/tias/clef/aero among others in check. Super good, cant go wrong w it
not that flexible, usually just specs or lorb bb, but still ridiculously threatening to just about everything especially with right set on the protean specs variant. I think gren has the best argument to be banworthy of anything in the tier
subtox and sd are impossible to effectively wall in one slot, with offensive pressure usually being the more reliable way. defensive utility is obviously ridiculous to supplement
was a brief period where ppl were down on this I feel like, but apple is consistently very strong, with nice experimentation with sets such as epack + zone being rly nice to surprise ppl expecting standard z dragon
im higher on victini than most i think, mainly because vcreate/tox/turn is so efficient at forcing progress into just about anything, while it also compacts nice defensive properties. I think its the most underrated mon in the tier
the defensive utility this thing has along with a ridic speed tier is invaluable for offense. rose to popularity a lot recently which is very deserved; super solid option although 4mss between taunt and a 3rd attack is annoying.
mega gallade feels super strong, probably being underutilized although ive seen an uptick in recent times anecdotally. abuses many defensive cores easily ie rotom/ting/mvenu while clef has fallen off since gapdos ban, which also eliminated another mgallade rkiller
i found myself defaulting to amoong a lot to round out builds; it presents a super good typing with superb defensive compression for many threats like sciz, gren, aegi, and mien
offensive z dogi is one of the more potent/consistent breakers around imo, think lefties bu with sub or w/e is a waste of time tho just go 3a
kinda surprised this doesnt see more usage esp post-mttar tbh, ting mu isnt even that bad while ting itself has taken a bit of a tumble recently which opens up a lot of avenues for this mon to be annoying asf with toxic chain
a lot of teams r actually quite weak to this. try cm ghost z, maybe even nasty plot with offensive tr could be cool
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this the best tier in natdex rn ngl, so many unexplored options in builder and gameplay which feels conducive to the better player winning most times. gj guys
Sorry for this being a week late, but I'm back with my monthly Q and A.
November Q and A!
1. What are your thoughts on the new VR and the mons that were newly ranked
A: I agree with most of the VR including the newly ranked mons, but I would like Zygarde to be higher, this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think Zygarde has some anti-meta like use hitting threats like Iron Moth, Mega-Aero, Aeig, Excadrill, Boulder, etc. While also not losing to defensive threats like Rotom- Wash and Steela doing massive damage to them with Thousand Arrows. Still, Zygarde 10 will need support for things like Clef and Buzzwole, so and offensive core like ( + ) really helps it shine. I also think Crobat is a pretty decent hazard removal/ speed control option too. And oh yeah Mega Latias is S Tier A+ Tier
C --> C+ or B-
UR --> C
A --> A+
2. : Overpowered or Over-Rated? Is there any other Mon that is either Overpowered or over-rated.
A: I have to go with Over-Rated here, while moth is a big threat in the meta game with teams having to build around having checks for it, moth has a lot of checks offensively and defensively so its not really that constraining when building. As, for part two of the question I think Hydrapple has proved to be a big threat idk if I would say its over-powered, but it's a Grass/Dragon type that can break through the tiers top steels which makes it something to look out for.
3. Do you think the tier is doing better with hazard removal options now that mons like Dhelmise and Talonflame made the VR or is the tier still struggling with this?
I think the tier is doing better with this, but we would still love something like a Moltres, Zapdos or Corvinight.
That's all for this month's Q and A, again sorry for it being so late. Feel free to add your own questions to the list and respond to the existing questions.
Sorry for this being a week late, but I'm back with my monthly Q and A.
November Q and A!
1. What are your thoughts on the new VR and the mons that were newly ranked
A: I agree with most of the VR including the newly ranked mons, but I would like Zygarde to be higher, this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think Zygarde has some anti-meta like use hitting threats like Iron Moth, Mega-Aero, Aeig, Excadrill, Boulder, etc. While also not losing to defensive threats like Rotom- Wash and Steela doing massive damage to them with Thousand Arrows. Still, Zygarde 10 will need support for things like Clef and Buzzwole, so and offensive core like ( + ) really helps it shine. I also think Crobat is a pretty decent hazard removal/ speed control option too. And oh yeah Mega Latias is S Tier A+ Tier
C --> C+ or B-
UR --> C
A --> A+
2. : Overpowered or Over-Rated? Is there any other Mon that is either Overpowered or over-rated.
A: I have to go with Over-Rated here, while moth is a big threat in the meta game with teams having to build around having checks for it, moth has a lot of checks offensively and defensively so its not really that constraining when building. As, for part two of the question I think Hydrapple has proved to be a big threat idk if I would say its over-powered, but it's a Grass/Dragon type that can break through the tiers top steels which makes it something to look out for.
3. Do you think the tier is doing better with hazard removal options now that mons like Dhelmise and Talonflame made the VR or is the tier still struggling with this?
I think the tier is doing better with this, but we would still love something like a Moltres, Zapdos or Corvinight.
That's all for this month's Q and A, again sorry for it being so late. Feel free to add your own questions to the list and respond to the existing questions.
1. Given that I nommed Dhelmise, I'm obviously really glad it got ranked on the VR. Primarina is also great for offense teams trying to not auto-lose to Greninja. I'm still not convinced regarding Krookodile and Talonflame, given the lack of results with them and Krook's failure to be able to actually KO any of the Mon it traps with Pursuit (CB Krook when?).
Regarding Zygarde, it really just fails to be an efficient attacker because of Ting-Lu. While you are right in your evaluation that its fantastic against Rotom-W and Celesteela, Ting-Lu is their eternal partner, and Thousand Arrows deals not great damage. Then there are also the other Mons that check it like Clefable and Buzzwole, as well as being forced to consider Outrage every turn against Hydrapple. Its defensive utility is also totally fake, it checks Iron Moth like one time and thats it.
Regarding Sealoo's post about Scizor, while I think it deserves A+ tier, S tier is a hard sell considering that Hydrapple being such a big threat forces nearly all Scizor to be U-turn, if not Buginium Z.
Crobat is not good, sorry. Our hazard control isn' that dire.
Mega Latias is fantastic I agree, though I need to experiment more with Offensive to understand where it should be placed.
2. Overrated. Don't wanna get into it again, please refer to my other post. Regarding OP mons, basically everything on the Radar.
3. I think niche hazard removal options are fine but doesn't indicate the improvement of hazard removal, rather the desperate needs of teams that they have to reach for such options.
I will cry with joy if we get any of the Defog Birds.
Archaludon moved from NDOU to NDUU Banette-Mega moved from NDOU to NDUU Ceruledge moved from NDOU to NDUUBL Garganacl moved from NDOU to NDUUBL Regieleki moved from NDOU to NDUU Shedinja moved from NDOU to NDUU Ursaluna moved from NDOU to NDUU
We are planning on voting on it in the future, but when exactly remains to be seen. This meta has only existed for a few hours at time of writing, and we usually want to deal with banning things before unbanning things.
Quite possibly the easiest D ranks of our lives. Banette was actual cheeks the last time it was here (it was either D or unranked, I forget), and the meta is somehow even more inhospitable towards it now, what with MVenu being king, TTar being popular again who also happens to completely negate its utility moves because of how Prankster works, Ting Lu being omnipresent and also a Dark type, and SD Aegi just outclassing it as an offensive physical ghost, and, guess what, it's still a mega. Its only positive change is that Ceruledge isn't here anymore to outclass it even more. No doubt people will try the Destiny Bond meme set, to little effect against a serious team. All of our current D ranks are better than these mons (yes, even Mega Beedrill), which really says a lot about how bad these mons are. Regieleki when we have even more spdef bulky grounds that it can't try (badly) to cheese past with Normalium Hyper Beam than OU makes MBeedrill look palatable by comparison. No Light Clay also means it can't be a screens boom lead to try and scrape out a niche on HO. If it's any consolation, Mega Banette is the better of the two. ... Not that it means much.
Might be neat for stall. You wall the living daylights out of Hydrapple and... uh... HP Fireless Serprior? Basically everything runs a move that hits it SE. Might be a D rank but maybe some stall just really really wants Hydrapple to stop bothering them. I don't see it replacing the Stall Big 6 though, but I am not a stall expert.
Probably kind of mid since Drizzle is banned rain isn't viable, but I'd say it's a solid B+ on paper, and a nice addition to the tier. Defensive typing is okish and its bulk is pretty great, but no recovery on such a slow mon with so few relevant resistances hurts it a lot. That said, equally, not much hits it super effectively, only grounds (who admittedly mostly wall it) and fightings (who can't come in on it at all). Good utility mon that can break for BO while threatening Clefable, I imagine. Maybe someone will try to bring back manual rain with it, to probably underwhelming results. Dragonium was proposed and that might be nice. IDef BPress seems cool until you realise you have to run Dark Pulse to mildly tickle Aegislash and EPower MVenu (ie. all of them) laughs at you, since, again, no recovery.
Probably QB worthy, but we'll see, I thought that about Kartana at first and it ended up only being suspect worthy. The meta's leaning into a balance meta right now, and this thing eats it alive. We might go through the usual cycle of "omg SD 3 attacks is broken" > "uh this thing doesn't stay alive long at all so it can't really break" > "oh hey let's try BU" > "oh god BU is busted af ban it ban it BAN IT", all while people are spamming it on TR, but we'll see. In the meantime, who's ready for Five Turns of Trick Room?
This guy is undoubtedly unhealthy for UU. It is broken in every sense of the term, except for its speed stat. Ursa's bulk allows it to take hits from all sorts of threats, while being able to dish out extreme punishment in return. It's typing gives it 2 immunities, making it even easier to get in safely. And, of course, what really makes it a problem is it having the combination of a monstrous attack stat, access to guts, impossible to safely switch into coverage, and stab Facade. Ursaluna can be played behind Trick Room, and invalidate many, MANY teams just by throwing off Facades and Headlong Rushes. When given wish support from something such as Wish + Teleport Clefable, Ursaluna is able to stay on the game even longer, forcing kill after kill. No longer being OU means that its competition is weaker than before, making it dreadfully difficult to reliably take care of this behemoth without stab or stat boosted super effective moves. Any team that is not built with an Ursaluna game plan or counter is likely to crumple immediately to the bear's insane offensive potential. Ursaluna also has access to both Swords Dance and Bulk Up, ensuring that if anything wasn't OHKO'd by any of it's Facade/Headlong/Fire PUnch before, it will be after the boost. In OU, SD was the more common set up move. However, due to less defensive mons such as Corviknight or Alomola, Bulk Up is able to get the job done all the same, while also boosting Ursa's defense. Additionally, there are not even many options for reliably dealing with Ursaluna that don't involve playing incredibly well, and making every play right. Buzzwole, for example, is one of the few things that can come in on Ursa's nuke of a Facade, wouldn't be able to do anything against a Wishfable supported Ursaluna. Buzzwole also fails when Ursaluna is paired with Future Sight from a Slowking/bro. Teams either can ignore Ursa when building, and pay the price, or be forced to build with Ursa in mind, and lose to other threats, or even build for Ursa and still lose because there is no reliable switch in for the bear. As a whole, Ursaluna is uncompetitive for NDUU. It is beyond a doubt worth a quickban.
The bear is quite an interesting Mon, and definitely not as immediately broken as I think many people expected it to be. I'm still unsure where I stand regarding how powerful Ursaluna is, primarily because of a lack of visibility with few games being played, but I will be keeping a close eye on NDBD to see how Ursaluna fares in the hands of strong players.
HoodedZack's post about Ursaluna brings up some things that are very relevant to Ursaluna, so lets start there. Ursaluna is fairly powerful, with an enormous attack stat coupled with powerful STABs and Guts. This is not unusual: Gapdos and Mienshao have similar attack stats, and Mega Gallade and Mega Heracross are stronger, though with the Guts boost Ursaluna does outdamage these options. However, its lackluster speed means it is unable to easily bowl over teams, as it can be easily revenge killed by the plentiful Fighting-type options in the tier. Oher staples like Rotom-W, Zeraora, and Mega Venusaur can heavily dent Ursaluna as well, leaving it unable to do much of anything for the rest of the game. This can be offset by investing more in Bulk, though being outrun by Scizor, Hydrapple, and Skarmory is very undesirable.
With such a terrible Speed stat, Ursaluna's other flaws are exposed. Though it has 2 notable immunities as Zack pointed out, those immunities are very unlikely to come into play. The main Ghost-types of the tier are Aegislash, which can easily cripple Ursaluna with Close Combat or even Toxic, and Blacephalon, which can easily 2HKO it with Fire STAB or OHKO it with Specs Overheat. Electric-types like Zeraora and Rotom-W can hit Ursaluna with Close Combat, Knock Off, or Hydro Pump. With such lackluster typing other than these two immunities, Ursaluna finds it very hard to get on the field easily. With so much of the tier centralized around beating Ting-Lu, Ursaluna gets caught in the crossfire. Using Ursaluna as your Ground-type also means you usually can't afford Ting-Lu, one of the best Mons in the tier.
With Ursaluna not being able to enter the field easily, team support is needed. But this leads to another problem: its really hard to build around Ursaluna. Now admittedly, this may just be a skill issue on my part, but as I've discussed with other top players in the tier, it seems really hard to fit Ursaluna on teams. With the Guts set providing no defensive utility and the Bulk Up + Leftovers set being way too slow, it seems that no existing team styles want to run Ursaluna. Obviously, Trick Room exists, but even with Ursaluna there is such a dearth of other Trick Room abusers that the playstyle cannot function. Semi-Room teams with Trick Room Slowbro might be worth exploring, but as of right now, Ursaluna does not obvious slot into any archetype.
Now Ursaluna is undoubtedly strong once it does get on the field. Guts Facade OHKOs pretty much the entire tier, with Headlong Rush/Earthquake covering Aegislash and Fire Punch hitting Celesteela and Skarmory. Some niche options like Sinistcha can handle this combination, but you can even run Crunch for that, given the 4th moveslot is very flexible, between Bulk Up/Swords Dance or Crunch/Trailblaze. When it comes in against a lot of teams, Ursaluna will get a kill. But this is primarily against Offense, which doesn't have the bulk to switch into Ursaluna. Defensive teams have things like Fast Skarmory to handle Ursaluna. However, even more offensive teams have ways to play around Ursaluna. Aegislash + Rotom-W can blank Ursaluna, with Kings Shield to potentially rack up Attack Drops and Burn damage, and both Aegislash and Rotom-W can threaten Ursaluna after a bit of chip. Mega Aerodactyl can stomach one Facade, and the Excadrill its often paired with can potentially bait a Ground move. Hydrapple can outspeed bulkier Ursaluna and easily OHKO. Buzzwole as mentioned eats Facade, threatens Ursaluna out with Close Combat, and can Roost off the damage.
Some other miscellaneous thoughts I have is that it is nearly impossible to fit Wish support next to Ursaluna, as Wish Teleport Clefable sucks really bad and there are no other great Wish users. Ursaluna also really doesn't need Swords Dance to bruise the tier, it does so unboosted. Options like fast Scizor can help some offense teams deal with Ursaluna.
I'd like to see much more development surrounding Ursaluna before we take action on it. It's way too early to determine whether the bear is broken or not, but right now I'm certainly leaning towards keeping it around for a while.
Edit: I think I understated Ursaluna's power against slower teams. It is true that it is incredibly strong against bulkier playstyles, from Stall to Fat. However, we already have other options to crush these playstyles that are much better into the wider metagame, those being Mega Gallade, Hydrapple, and Mienshao + Iron Moth. This is not unique. Ursaluna's peerless crushing of Fat may well push the meta in an offensive direction, or simply cause the rise of fast Skarmory/Scizor/Sinistcha to compensate.
Excadrill HO is a matchup fish, the west has fallen!!!
(tl:dr this is a Mew shill post)
It's been a long while since I've actually had something I was motivated to post about but I have recently taken an interest of the quality of a lot of the hyper offense games as of late, mainly the lack of it? It seems to me that a lot of the popular HOs have kinda turned into matchup fishes so I made it a nice week / 2 week project to see how one would make the playstyle more consistent as a whole.
Hyper Offence: Broken Mode
Long time players and spectators will know that Hyper Offense didn't start out terrible, in fact it was pretty fantastic and had an absurd amount of options to use. So...what happened??? A history lesson is needed to document the context for Hyper Offense's degradation in viability.
The first team tour showing for Gen 9 NatDex UU obviously isn't going to be a "solved" tier, however the amount of dangerous setup sweepers roaming around in the NDPL IV metagame made Hyper Offense a force to be reckoned with. Gyarados and Ceruledge HOs dominated the scene as they could essentially take out each others checks to enable the other to sweep. Independently Gyarados could easily maul most of the metagame with its Dragon Dance Z-Move sets and spiral out of control while Ceruledge broke nearly the entire tier after an SD boost and outspeed threats such as Scarf Kartana after a Weak Armor proc, something that typically gets forced with its high sash usage and ability to take out Mega Tyranitar with Close Combat. To enable both of them, Light Clay users such as Grimmsnarl and Serperior were employed to maximize their setup potential, although they were more than capable of pulling through without screens support. Ogerpon Cornerstone also made a strong showing here since it also considered a tough to wall sweeper with its deadly stab combo.
By the time of NDFL I and NatDex USA vs RoW, both Light Clay and Mega Gyarados had been banned from the tier, allowing Ceruledge and Cornerstone to step up as the most dangerous setup sweepers in the tier. This time their enabler would be Excadrill making sure hazards stayed off long enough to setup with Focus Sash and win especially with checks such as Alomomola and Aegislash respectively rising to OU during that time. After their ban Iron Hands and Thundurus-T filled the void and turned into powerful sweepers, with Iron Hands's ungodly bulk letting it take the most bizzare attacks and return fire with a boosted Drain Punch to cause more havoc and Thundurus-T making use of its coverage and Z-moves to effortlessly bust open holes. Both of them would end up being banned with the only controversial threat remaning in Iron Moth, who escaped a ban after it was discovered that there was more options for counterplay then was originally led to believe.
After the tier adapted to Iron Moth's antics, Hyper Offense was at its weakest since the metagame began. It's showing in NDPL V was subpar with only two wins in the entire season and no loads in Playoffs. It was slightly better in NDFL II when players began seeing the value in sweepers such as Iron Boulder, Greninja, Blacephalon, Mega Gallade, etc although it still didn't have any vital showings with no loads in playoffs either. After Greninja's isolation as a broken threat, its ban killed a lot of interest in HO as a playstyle. Although it still retains some sparse usage but the consistency has dropped significantly and it is a far cry from the solved broken compositions from prior iterations.
What's wrong with modern hyper offense?
There are two major issues that most hyper offense teams have to address:
Ease of setup
Potential to spiral
Ease of setup refers to how easy it is to click a setup move such as Swords Dance without the fear of being irrecoverably punished, meaning that it should not die or be considered "crippled". Crippled meaning it can no longer breakthrough a team with ease (typically from Burn and Paralysis) or has too low HP to do anything outside of trading or too low to the point of losing to priority. On the surface avoiding this issue should be a no-brainer ("just setup when you get the chance to do so" or something like that), but one has to consider the amount of defensive utility options the sweepers in this tier have to contend with. A very popular example of this is Ting-Lu, which carries Whirlwind on like 90% of the teams. An HO team cannot function without someway of pressuring Ting-Lu and bad Whirlwind pulls bringing in things such as Aerodactyl-Mega and Iron Moth early can be insanely detrimental. Status spreads such as Clefable and Rotom-Wash also serve as instant momentum killers as they seldom get OHKO'd by most things HO has to offer.
Potential to spiral refers to the stage after a sweeper has setup and asks the question, "how easy can it win the game from that position?". A key aspect about the broken sweepers of before was that they had either bulk or speed on their side in addition to raw offensive power. Very few HO sweepers as of right now can afford to take multiple hits and often fumble into priority despite them being technically unwallable. Slower threats such as Swords Dance Aegislash and Ursaluna have the bulk yes but the lack the longevity needed to emulate something as threatening as Iron Hands. Serperior and Mega Gallade have good speed tiers but with no way to amplify it, they get revenge killed quite easily by threats like Mega Aerodactyl and Sand Rush Excadrill. Iron Moth and Mega Aerodactyl both have a naturally high speed tier and can amplify it with Booster Energy and Dragon Dance respectively but they lack the power necessary to break through common threats like Ting-Lu and Slowbro.
Previously underrated and overhated threat Mew is one of the main ways these two core issues can be resolved. It's ability to set Stealth Rock and Spikes while denying the opponents their utility with its pretty good (for the hazards metagame) speed tier + Taunt is rather unparalleled. This mon has gotten stray usage before in tours but has never really been considered a standard option for HO teams. Previously it was because sets focusing on Mew's Explosion were not consistent enough at tackling more standard builds despite being fine in the HO v HO matchup. But consistency is actually found by dropping Explosion for Will-O-Wisp in reality. Will-O-Wisp is what's needed to make sure it can actually setup multiple layers of hazards against threats like Tyranitar and Excadrill, is crucial against threats like Celesteela and Aegislash who would otherwise be pains to face, and deincentivies common removal options like Rotom-Wash from actually trying to do their jobs at the start. All of this allows Spikes and Rocks to stay on for longer and for the opponent to wait later than they would like to ideally in order to turn the game around.
Mew solves the lack of setup opportunities some HO teams would have with Will-O-Wisp, as threats like Iron Boulder and Aegislash become significantly less threatened by foes like Ting-Lu and Excadrill. Galarian Moltres, Belly Drum Azumarill, and Hawlucha also like the fact that it can setup on their more physically based-checks like Celesteela and Scizor. Taunt also plays a factor into how Mew can enable HO teams since it can shut down punishment attempts from threats like Clefable and Ting-Lu in addition to blocking their hazards to enable threats like Dragon Dance Aerodactyl-Mega and Nasty Plot Thundurus. Mew also solves the spiralling deficiency since it is essentially a tool for free chip damage. Dual-Hazards in a metagame where boots are not on most mons is obscenely good at wearing stuff like Rotom-Wash and Ting-Lu down to KO range for stuff like Iron Boulder and Blacephalon. Will-O-Wisp obviously contributes to this obscene chip further by crippling half a team with burns to enable a spiral. Sweepers like Galarian Moltres, Boulder, Hawlucha, Serperior, Alakazam only need some slight chip in order to break through what they need to so Mew should be more than enough in terms of enabling.
How Mew is better than the competition
The current options for HO leads are not satisfactory enough to enable threats on the playstyle to the same extent as Mew, which makes Mew the best choice de-facto.
Excadrill is the iconic lead and has been seeing strong usage for years since it compresses setter and removal on the same slot but it's being shit on for a reason. Yes it can remove hazards but it doesn't generate any long term value for the playstyle outside of the rocks placement, and becomes way more matchup dependent as a result. Ergo if one plays a matchup where there are checks you're incapable of breaking down, there's nothing Excadrill can really do to make this better. Mew on the other hand can at the very least wisp something for chip if the matchup is truely garbage. The HO vs HO matchup is also pretty strange since one is essentially banking on a good speed tie on lead against opposing Excadrill in order to start with an advantage, which doesn't sound super consistent. In this situation Mew is better against the standard Excadrill leads since it just gets Taunted and burned while Mew just spams hazards. Fears about Mew v Mew becoming an issue can have little basis due to the fact that Mew has more value than just being an HO lead since it's bulky enough to take a couple hits, allowing it to be saved as a useful Red Card user or just to set hazards back up if they get cleared. So even if it loses the Taunt speed tie, it can come back later to do something while you can rarely say the same for Excadrill.
Ting-Lu is the second best choice for a lead. Like Mew, it also can take a lot of hits before dying while also blocking Hazards from threats such as Clefable and opposing Ting-Lu. However its typing is way more of a problem compared to Mew as it suddenly finds itself worse off into Fighting-types such as Mienshao, Mega Gallade, and Buzzwole. Faster Taunt users like Serperior and Mega Gardevoir are also way more detrimental for a Ting-Lu lead compared to a Mew Lead. It also gets absurd movepool syndrome since it can't exactly run all of Stealth Rock, Taunt, Whirlwind, EQ, Ruination, and Spikes on the same slot. Shutting down removal is also frustrating if the removal isn't called Excadrill since most Defoggers can click the move for free against it. Mew can outspeed most of the foggers except for Serperior and block with Taunt. Compared to Ting-Lu, Mew just feels like an upgrade if one is looking to use Spikes Lead.
For webs setters like Araquanid and Ribombee the scope is a little different since, it's enabling via speed drops instead of with chip damage. The threats that want to fit on that archetype are slightly different in terms of sets and mons but Mew isn't as matchup fishy as using Webs. Webs will often face issues such as Zeraora, Serperior, Rotom-Wash while playing that are pretty hard to overcome without some extra assurances that the leads don't provide with the lack of additional value outside of Webs. Mew's better bulk and Wisp comes into play better here since it can force out Zeraora under the threat of burn instead of getting 2HKO'd by Plasma Fists, phaze Serperior with Red Card and Wisp whatever comes in / set more hazards, and ensure hazards stay up with Taunt against Rotom-Wash.
Threats to Mew
To address some quick concerns about Mew, Taunt Serperior is a pretty strong shutdown to these types of HO comps, and at that point if there was a huge fear that one would run into it then you could run Explosion over one of Taunt/Wisp to get some leeway against it. Although the matchup into the rest of the tier is a little worse so play it by ear. This is a problem that most HO leads will face however, the only difference is that Mew's unique utility give it better chances to try again than the others. Mega Sableye is also a pretty dog matchup (theoretically, I haven't been put in the situation) HOWEVER its really low usage at the moment and tanking viability is fairly dismissable. No huge reason to be running Excadrill solely for the stall advantage, so other leads can be used instead.
Genuinely find myself stumped on an introduction here -
Let's talk about Gallade.
More people have been catching onto it, and I think we've reached a point where it's established itself at the very forefront. Despite no shortage of fast wallbreakers, this Pokemon's umbrella of offensive traits and consistency make it an elite pick and deserving of a place above most of its competition.
M-Gallade has always been a potent wallbreaker on its own, but what changes in particular are so drastic as to warrant such a huge rise?
For starters, the tier as a whole is a lot more stable than it was in previous iterations, with the amount of threat saturation having gone down further since the bans of major setup threats throughout the last year or so, with all of Cinderace, Thundy-T, Latios, Yokosuma, M-Tyranitar, Gapdos, and Greninja leaving the tier, which incidentally results in there being way less opportunity cost to account for when building with it.
Its STAB combination backed by Knock is also very threatening right now into teams consisting of staples such as Ting/M-Venusaur which are terrified of it, especially as unlike most threats which either contest the Z-Move or Choice slots, it's doing so with the autonomy to switch moves given its natural strength backed by Swords Dance which allows it to delete nearly everything. Of course, other great offensive threats such as M-Latias also possess its Speed tier, but M-Gallade's unmatched power and setup potential simply pushes the importance of addressing it to a whole new level.
Furthermore the proliferation of defensive cores around the aforementioned mons, but also including the likes of Buzzwole, Celesteela, and Rotom-W means it can get huge value out of clicking buttons as a lot of structures also mandate them to answer other common attackers such as M-Aero/Scizor/Exca. Sand is especially restricted by it as Tyranitar + Excadrill based teams often provide one of its safest entry points while it can also trade quite effectively into offense due to their inability to pivot around it much on top of it having a good defensive profile backed by the rock/fighting resists + special bulk in a vacuum even letting it go as far as checking something as powerful as LO Mienshao or Boulder.
The second part of this post I want to get into is how M-Gallade's counterplay works in practice. In my opinion, the best way to reliably answer M-Gallade is through the combination of defensive checks that resist a sizable portion of its attacks combined with sufficient revenge-killing.
In particular, Slowbro feels especially great atm due to how much role compression it has without being particularly passive in return, notably against all the Fighters to fast threats like M-Aerodactyl to things such as Scizor and Sand Rush Excadrill in a vacuum, it can even survive a +2 M-Gallade Knock Off from full HP and pivot out into a faster check or cripple it directly with TWave sets while resisting Gallade's STAB combo to boot. This also means that it is by far the most consistent check on the most archetypes, from bulkier balances to more offensive squads in need of said backbone.
Clefable is also effective at checking Gallade in most instances due to its Fairy-typing and longevity with Magic Guard, as well as possessing its own reach of utility options, albeit those valued a bit less compared to Slowbro with the tier's desired focus now steering away from its longevity-focused antics. Similarly, PhysDef Hippowdon and Tangrowth can also survive anything a +2 M-Gallade wants to throw from full HP and cripple it despite lacking resists while having decent (but not infallible) longevity in the face of entry hazards.
Lastly, other defensive checks such as Aegislash, M-Latias, and Tapu Fini arent fullproof to the same extent, but can usually deal enough damage to Gallade in a 1v1 to where they're able to force it out in a vacuum and thus reward careful play in regards to getting them on the field safely.
The other pool of counterplay I want to get into is the offensive counterplay, which for something as strong as M-Gallade, is usually a far more effective and robust method of checking it by being proactive in limiting its opportunities.
M-Aerodactyl is by far the tier's most reliable and splashable offensive check, being able to OHKO with Dual Wingbeat regardless of Gallade's spread. Choice Scarf Enamorus is also quite effective as a failsafe on offense due to being one of the options that can reliably OHKO it from most ranges without giving up anything. Other choiced attackers such as Boulder and Scarfers like Mienshao or Hydregion can also potentially revenge kill M-Gallade, but require significant chip damage and/or can't afford to switch into it, ever, as even its very spammable Knock Off ruins them.
Lastly, as it's essentially relevant to limiting both forms of counterplay, I would also like to take this time to highlight a special set me and Dan have been putting on the radar over the last few months in particular, introducing Bulky Swords Dance M-Gallade:
Gallade-Mega @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 116 HP / 140 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Knock Off
While this set isn't as destructive as Max Atk CC, the bulky approach makes up for it by and doubling down on its aforementioned defensive contributions while being shockingly resilient throughout the match courtesy of boosted Drain Punches and the high HP stats of most of its defensive targets. The HP EVs may not appear to be much, but they even allow it to trade in certain scenarios it would previously have to avoid. To name a few:
252 Atk Mienshao Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 134-159 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- approx. 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Boulder Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 258-304 (84.3 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Gallade-Mega: 270-320 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Gallade-Mega: 260-308 (84.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 136-162 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
16+ SpA Hydrapple Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Gallade-Mega: 243-286 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - Drain Punching at +2 also allows Gallade to survive the followup Draco/Leaf Storm, avoiding potential NP mindgames.
+4 140 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 384-453 (97.4 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+4 140 Atk Gallade-Mega Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Celesteela: 397-468 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 140 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 403-475 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Developments like these become especially concerning when considering how these new offensive avenues can easily offset the offensive threat's drawbacks without giving up on much offensively. As mentioned, the previously reliable defensive cores on Sand teams have become far easier to exploit with Gallade limiting physically defensive options. BO becomes much more reliable in the process due to being the best at facilitating the threats on its side, including Gallade itself, but leads to the inflexibility of usage stats and stale nature of games that are becoming increasingly pick and choose. Balance teams aren't as bowled over in this regard as these teams still have decent flexibility with using certain offensive pieces like Zera, M-Aero, Mienshao, Lefties Aegi, etc. that can check several of these threats, but said dynamic becomes increasingly unstable as the offensive threats centralizing the metagame become more difficult to answer without resorting to specific options.
So to summarise by ranking each playstyle's current viability based on their interactions with metagame dynamics, I'd argue we've gone from: Sand, Balance, Bulky Offense, Hyper Offense, Stall
To something like this: Bulky Offense, Balance, Hyper Offense, Sand, Stall
This is the very definition of a metagame warp, where the hierarchy of all archetypes is being recentered around the top threats yet again, to the extent that when a certain teamstyle has more difficulty fitting their checks, it becomes harder to justify bringing to most MUs.
The last point I want to get into is how M-Gallade's presence affects other significant elements in the teambuilder, most notably those centred around other prominent threats in the tier.
- I've discussed the mon many times before, but if there's one thing that deserves a unique mention here, it's that SD Z variants of Aegislash feel especially powerful right now due to how easily it tears through common cores. Think those largely consisting of bulky staples such as Clefable and Skarmory that have increased in usage but are mostly helpless to stop it from setting up as opposed to the likes of Buzzwole, Wisp Rotom-W, individual teamstyles such as the majority of Sand teams featuring Pursuit Tyranitar, and even niche choices such as Mandibuzz (s/o Riceman) that had the major boon of handling anything physical Aegi wants to throw. In fact, I strongly believe it is because of M-Gallade's builder influence that the mon is simply able to get away with so much offensive bullshit right now with how much these teams are forced to compromise their matchups. This is even reinforced by the sheer synergy these two have on the same teams as seen by how well they bust open nearly every defensive teamstyle out there without much in the way of weaknesses versus faster squads.
- While HDB sets have been up the creek for a while given how much it struggles to maintain its defensive role in and out of matches, Booster sets on offense can just sometimes blitz their way through faster teams, and this is especially helped by M-Gallade lowering general Sand usage and heavily punishing Ting-Lu for existing, making it much less of a MU fish outside those instances.
- An already great pick owing to its prodigious offenses and defensive utility. With how much reactive play we're seeing from the above defensive pivots as a result of the influence wallbreakers like M-Gallade have on the defensive integrity of most team structures, the slower pace makes a well-played Z-Hydrapple even easier to use and find opportunities to break with, arguably pushing it into suspect territory more than ever.
So on top of causing significant ramifications to most teamstyles, it also directly contributes the most to the buffing or even breaking of several other elements by far. This is easily one of the unhealthiest dynamics I think I've ever seen carried by a single mon, let alone on an offensive threat of M-Gallade's stature because you simply can't get this level of consistency in anything else right now, all the way from Mienshao to Ursaluna.
To conclude, the main points I've outlined that contribute to M-Gallade's effect on the tier:
1. Insanely splashable and easy to use, on all matter of HO to Balance teams with how much its defensive profile enhances its offensive profile and power of its STABs + Knock. To where it can always get value in any game.
2. Counterplay helped by recent tiering developments is becoming increasingly unstable and difficult to fit without resorting to the same teams, most notably seen in the rise of Bulky SD sets.
3. It's creating a domino effect that extends to most teamstyles, which also limits their ability to address other problematic elements significantly.
This post is already super long as it is but tl;dr is while I don't necessarily believe M-Gallade is over the top broken let alone the only presence under the microscope. After NDBD finishes I would heavily prioritise a suspect test of some sort and enthusiastically vote to ban it from the tier.
Day late but tier shifts are in! One big loss and a much smaller one, and a few likely big drops.
Tapu Fini moved from NDUU to NDOU Ting-Lu moved from NDUU to NDOU
Kyurem moved from NDOU to NDUUBL Glimmora moved from NDOU to NDUU Iron Crown moved from NDOU to NDUU Pelipper moved from NDOU to NDUU Rillaboom moved from NDOU to NDUU
Our Ground type goat might be gone, but we luckily have several alternatives, like Excadrill, Hippowdon, Gastrodon and more underexplored options like Rhyperior and Swampert to fill the niche and the hole in our hearts Ting has left behind. Pour (an age appropriate) one out for our goat.
This is a little bit of a crashout post cuz I fucking hated my ND Homefield Trios set this week but I would like to talk about some aspects of the tier I find very egregious at the moment. When I use the term egregious I mean that in the sense of they make the tier worse more than they help at this point due to their ability to dominate the gamestate with their power, either by chunking potential checks for massive damage and straight up wiping everything else off the map or alternatively have proven to be exeedingly hard to revenge kill and thus running away with the game a lot of the time.
People like Danbear02 are aware of how much I loathe this pokemon in the builder. Mega Gardevoir forces fat steel-types such as Iron Crown, Celesteela and Jirachi to be on a team to hold your ground against it. Everything else is capable of being mauled with its massive power or tech variants such as Substitute, Taunt, Psychic Noise, Shadow Ball, etc. It's incredibly difficult for most playstyles to play around this threat because of this. The aforementioned steel types do alright but Mega Gardevoir's job is to punch holes into defensive cores with little to no effort, which can result in said checks getting overextended as they attempt to deal with partners like Hydrapple, Rotom-Wash, etc ON TOP of Mega Gardevoir and thus they are not long term checks overall. Revenge killers are even harder to use as an anti-Gardevoir thing as it requires users sack a Pokemon in order to safely get something such as Iron Moth or Scizor on the field to take it out, which bring its own problems such as impossible resource management, inability to force damage anything (most Mega Gardevoir revenge killers can get hard checked to stonewalled by common defensive staples in the tier) and ultimately can have opponents put in to "lose-lose situations" that make playing without a fat steel ill-advised. Idk about you guys but personally I do not feel comfortable playing with this threat in mind, I know that sounds like bias given I'm a stall chud in a lot of NatDex tiers but stall is unironically the playstyle I struggle with Gardevoir-Mega the LEAST thanks to Jirachi and Hoodra being mandatory (wonder why they're mandatory hehe). Those two are significantly harder to fit on Balance teams and means they have to resort to Celesteela and the unexplored Iron Crown who might not even be here to stay. Celesteela itself can again get overextended, but also can just lose the 1v1 entirely with sets like Substitute or Psychic Noise. I'm a little tired of pretending Mega Gardevoir is balanced. And before someone asks, Skeledirge is not a real check to this despite resisting Hyper Voice.
Post-Ting-Lu, Ghostium Z Aegislash is absurdly spammable trader now and has the choice to nuke whatever it really wants with it boosted Z-Shadow Claw. Pokemon such as Standard Buzzwole, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Tyranitar, Ursaluna, etc can not consistently beat this guy. Add in the fact that even those non-consistent checks can lose hard to alternative sets such as Mixed Aegislash or Life Orb variants, and Aegislash suddenly stops pretending to be checkable akin to Mega Gardevior. Thankfully its speed low so that alone gives it far more options in dealing with it than something like Mega Gardevoir but its still a trader I fear brings more harm than good to the metagame overall. I say this but I think its still like "semi-balanced" since a lot of the interactions require hyper specific conditions to do something that isn't just "get a free kill and then die". Compare this to Mega Gardevoir who just claims a mon everything it hits the field, switches out, and then repeats.
The above threats are very dangerous matchup fishers at the moment due to how slim the counterplay is against them and how easily they can invalidate said counterplay with certain set tweaks. Hawlucha is a prime example of this due to how heavily "do or die" it is. Grass Terrain structures have gone from prep-fishing to incredibly toxic with the introduction of Rillaboom into the metagame. Hawlucha borderline only has a handful of checks that are required to be at full or carry certain coverage / pray Hawlucha isn't packing a tech move to win. Aegislash can typically make the attempt to check it but gets harrassed badly by throat chip variants. While threats such as Slowbro and Clefable have to hope that they weren't chipped beforehand by threats like Iron Boulder or Ursaluna. Z-Hydrapple is also incredibly threatening for similar reasons to Aegislash but slightly easier to deal with. Instead of practically no checks, it's just Celesteela that checks it and it NEEDS Air Slash to win. This is awkward for Celesteela because (as was said before) fat-Steels practically stop becoming useful checks if they are overextended. As for other Steel-types, Earth Power make quick work of them or just the massive power from a +2 Z-Draco. Everything else (Steel or not) cannot realistically be called a check. Iron Crown has shown to synergize VERY well with Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain in order to abuse Hippowdon and friends for free setup. Hawlucha also does this on Grassy Terrain and combining those two mons on the same team turns it into a terror core that is incredibly obnoxious to beat. Booster Speed sets without Grassy Seed also can send an opposing team packing as its typing and the ability to easily gain defensive buffs to farm teams with Stored Power. Potential checks such as Celsteela and Aegislash have to play incredibly careful against it or they can wind up losing, meanwhile other fat shit such as Hippowdon and Chansey straight up do not win unless they have anti-crown techs such as Whirlwind or Thunder Wave respective. Of the 3 mons listed in this paragraph, I think Iron Crown is the least hostile and provides a unique defensive role in the tier, would love to keep it around if the reward is worth the risk. Compare this to something like Hydrapple where it is seen invalidating formerly great pokemon such as Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss and Tangrowth, and Hawlucha who isn't needed to check anything at all.
With the recent tier shifts and a meta that is still developing, we discussed and came to the conclusion that this would be the best time to drop Garganacl back into the tier. Given the lack of major tournaments in the near future, we can use this time to evaluate the health of the tier and ban any major outliers in power before the next tour.
Garganacl was first banned when Tera was legal, which played a large role in its power and flexibility as a defensive option. WIth Tera Water or Tera Ghost alongside an Iron Defense + Body Press set or Curse + Earthquake, both paired with the ever reliable Salt Cure, Garganacl could stifle most of its common counterplay with ease, and was very overbearing for the metagame to deal with; Tera Ghost was most often used against the opponents Garganacl to shut it down. However, with Tera banned and the most recent survey indicating >50% of the playerbase is interested in testing Garganacl, the metagame may be in a state where we can comfortably handle the pile of rocks.
Garganacl provides a lot of defensive utility in the teambuilder. It is a very reliable counter to all Iron Moth sets, which provides respite in the wake of Ting-Lu’s loss. Its defensive profile is similar to Tyranitar, granting players further checks to threats like Mixed Aegislash, Blacephalon, and Galarian Moltres which may be hard to stop otherwise. Its impressive bulk can also allow it to handle Mega Gardevoir and Enamorus, but not completely stifle them due to it often being forced to Recover. It can also be a reliable Stealth Rock setter, dissuading Excadrill from removing hazards with Salt Cure.
Speaking of Salt Cure, Garganacl’s most obnoxious tool has much more counterplay at this point in the tier. Regenerators like Hydrapple, Mienshao, Slowbro, and Amoonguss are very common, and without Tera, all 4 of these options heavily threaten Garganacl. Clefable is able to shrug off Salt Cure, and other options like Tyranitar, Ursaluna, and Buzzwole can come in and immediately threaten Garganacl while not minding the chip too much. Its Iron Defense and Curse sets are of course something to keep an eye on, but with new options like Rillaboom and Iron Crown as well as tier staples like Hydrapple, Serperior, Mega Venusaur, and Rotom-Wash, Garganacl may find it hard to take over games as easily as it did when it had Tera.
We will be keeping an eye on Garganacl, Pokemon previously on our suspect slate, and new tier additions as the tier develops in the next 2-3 weeks. As always, discussion in the Discussion Forum is appreciated. Don’t forget about the Discord and the National Dex UU Room as well; discussion in all these places help shape council decision-making and lead to a more developed metagame! Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement, thank you!
With the recent tier shifts and a meta that is still developing, we discussed and came to the conclusion that this would be the best time to drop Garganacl back into the tier. Given the lack of major tournaments in the near future, we can use this time to evaluate the health of the tier and ban any major outliers in power before the next tour.
Garganacl was first banned when Tera was legal, which played a large role in its power and flexibility as a defensive option. WIth Tera Water or Tera Ghost alongside an Iron Defense + Body Press set or Curse + Earthquake, both paired with the ever reliable Salt Cure, Garganacl could stifle most of its common counterplay with ease, and was very overbearing for the metagame to deal with; Tera Ghost was most often used against the opponents Garganacl to shut it down. However, with Tera banned and the most recent survey indicating >50% of the playerbase is interested in testing Garganacl, the metagame may be in a state where we can comfortably handle the pile of rocks.
Garganacl provides a lot of defensive utility in the teambuilder. It is a very reliable counter to all Iron Moth sets, which provides respite in the wake of Ting-Lu’s loss. Its defensive profile is similar to Tyranitar, granting players further checks to threats like Mixed Aegislash, Blacephalon, and Galarian Moltres which may be hard to stop otherwise. Its impressive bulk can also allow it to handle Mega Gardevoir and Enamorus, but not completely stifle them due to it often being forced to Recover. It can also be a reliable Stealth Rock setter, dissuading Excadrill from removing hazards with Salt Cure.
Speaking of Salt Cure, Garganacl’s most obnoxious tool has much more counterplay at this point in the tier. Regenerators like Hydrapple, Mienshao, Slowbro, and Amoonguss are very common, and without Tera, all 4 of these options heavily threaten Garganacl. Clefable is able to shrug off Salt Cure, and other options like Tyranitar, Ursaluna, and Buzzwole can come in and immediately threaten Garganacl while not minding the chip too much. Its Iron Defense and Curse sets are of course something to keep an eye on, but with new options like Rillaboom and Iron Crown as well as tier staples like Hydrapple, Serperior, Mega Venusaur, and Rotom-Wash, Garganacl may find it hard to take over games as easily as it did when it had Tera.
We will be keeping an eye on Garganacl, Pokemon previously on our suspect slate, and new tier additions as the tier develops in the next 2-3 weeks. As always, discussion in the Discussion Forum is appreciated. Don’t forget about the Discord and the National Dex UU Room as well; discussion in all these places help shape council decision-making and lead to a more developed metagame! Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement, thank you!
Hello everyone! Here I am with a lil' topic to discuss! Although not having much experience in the tier, I would like to hypotheticaly talk about Dondozo and how it should be given a second chance.
Given the ban of Terastalization in the National Dex OU, UU and RU, Dondozo can't change its type defensively anymore, being uncapable to escape its defensive shortcomings. What would make Dondozo balanced in the tier, you ask? Well, I got some valid arguments:
➤ The National Dex UU Tier is FILLED with strong Grass type powerhouses:
➥ Whilde Dondozo has a great type in Water, in National Dex UU where Grass-Types are dominant with strong and excellent Pókemon like Veusaur-Mega, Hydrapple and Serperior, and those factors make Dondozo's single typing in Water very detrimental. Dondozo, while having an enormous HP of 155, has an underwhelming 65 Special Defence, meaning it won't take Grass moves at all (even the Physical ones). Not to mention every viable team has to have a Grass-Type Pókemon, meaning that >Dondozo won't have it easy in National Dex UU. Also Rillaboom got introduced, a more usable Grassy Terrain user.
➤ Strong Electric presence in the National dex UU Tier:
➥ Grass isn't the only type Dondozo (or Water in general) is afraid of. And while the Electric presence isn't as strong in the National Dex UU as Grass, Electric Pókemon thrive in succeeding in this tier and Electric is generally something you need to be carfeul for. That is thanks to the incredible Pókemon mainly Rotom-Wash, Magnezone and Zeraora. With STAB Thunderbolt, Plasma Fist and Volt Switch respectively, thjey can chip down Dondozo's health significally if not even kill it.
➤ Stallbreakers in National Dex UU:
➥ Even Pókemon that dont (have STAB) moves that Dondozo is allergic to, it doesn`t mean Dondozo is safe frromn their offensive power. For example, a burned Ursaluna with boosted Attck and STAB Facade can do significant damage to Dondozo. Gardevoir-Mega is also a great Wall/STAll breaker with STAB Pixilate Hyper Voice which Dondozo doesn't take well, STAB Psychock that hits Blissey or Chancey and Taunt, another move Dondozo does not appreciate.
➤ Strong Special Attackers in the NDUU Tier:
➥ Like I said, Dondozo has an underwhelming 65 Special Defence, making it quite vulnerable to Special attack even countimng its gigantestic HP. Well, in this tier, finding a strong Special Pókemon isn't hard: we have Pókemon like Aegislash, Iron Moth and Latias-Mega. With eiter STAB (In case of Aegislash and Latias-Mega) or coverage (In case of Iron Moth), they are capable to worm Donodzo down with their threatening special offence capabilities. There's also many more like Enamorus and Moltres-Galar.
➤ Common Knock Off users:
➥ While not entirely shattering for Dondozo, because Knock Off is widely distributed to some useful Pókemon in Nat. Dex UU with Pókemon like Clefable, Tyranitar (STAB Knock Off) and Scizor. Dondozo loses either Heavy-Duty Boots or Leftovers, losing recovery (losing Rest with Taunt) or to Hazards like (Toxic) Spikes and Stealth Rock.
So what do y'all think? Shall Dondozo be relesed from the UUBL prison? Does it deserve a second chance?
Hello everyone! Here I am with a lil' topic to discuss! Although not having much experience in the tier, I would like to hypotheticaly talk about Dondozo and how it should be given a second chance.
Given the ban of Terastalization in the National Dex OU, UU and RU, Dondozo can't change its type defensively anymore, being uncapable to escape its defensive shortcomings. What would make Dondozo balanced in the tier, you ask? Well, I got some valid arguments:
View attachment 732232View attachment 732117View attachment 732116 ➤ The National Dex UU Tier is FILLED with strong Grass type powerhouses:
➥ Whilde Dondozo has a great type in Water, in National Dex UU where Grass-Types are dominant with strong and excellent Pókemon like Veusaur-Mega, Hydrapple and Serperior, and those factors make Dondozo's single typing in Water very detrimental. Dondozo, while having an enormous HP of 155, has an underwhelming 65 Special Defence, meaning it won't take Grass moves at all (even the Physical ones). Not to mention every viable team has to have a Grass-Type Pókemon, meaning that >Dondozo won't have it easy in National Dex UU. Also Rillaboom got introduced, a more usable Grassy Terrain user.
View attachment 732115View attachment 732112View attachment 732119 ➤ Strong Electric presence in the National dex UU Tier:
➥ Grass isn't the only type Dondozo (or Water in general) is afraid of. And while the Electric presence isn't as strong in the National Dex UU as Grass, Electric Pókemon thrive in succeeding in this tier and Electric is generally something you need to be carfeul for. That is thanks to the incredible Pókemon mainly Rotom-Wash, Magnezone and Zeraora. With STAB Thunderbolt, Plasma Fist and Volt Switch respectively, thjey can chip down Dondozo's health significally if not even kill it.
View attachment 732113View attachment 732114 ➤ Stallbreakers in National Dex UU:
➥ Even Pókemon that dont (have STAB) moves that Dondozo is allergic to, it doesn`t mean Dondozo is safe frromn their offensive power. For example, a burned Ursaluna with boosted Attck and STAB Facade can do significant damage to Dondozo. Gardevoir-Mega is also a great Wall/STAll breaker with STAB Pixilate Hyper Voice which Dondozo doesn't take well, STAB Psychock that hits Blissey or Chancey and Taunt, another move Dondozo does not appreciate.
View attachment 732229View attachment 732230View attachment 732246 ➤ Strong Special Attackers in the NDUU Tier:
➥ Like I said, Dondozo has an underwhelming 65 Special Defence, making it quite vulnerable to Special attack even countimng its gigantestic HP. Well, in this tier, finding a strong Special Pókemon isn't hard: we have Pókemon like Aegislash, Iron Moth and Latias-Mega. With eiter STAB (In case of Aegislash and Latias-Mega) or coverage (In case of Iron Moth), they are capable to worm Donodzo down with their threatening special offence capabilities. There's also many more like Enamorus and Moltres-Galar.
View attachment 732233View attachment 732231View attachment 732266 ➤ Common Knock Off users:
➥ While not entirely shattering for Dondozo, because Knock Off is widely distributed to some useful Pókemon in Nat. Dex UU with Pókemon like Clefable, Tyranitar (STAB Knock Off) and Scizor. Dondozo loses either Heavy-Duty Boots or Leftovers, losing recovery (losing Rest with Taunt) or to Hazards like (Toxic) Spikes and Stealth Rock.
So what do y'all think? Shall Dondozo be relesed from the UUBL prison? Does it deserve a second chance?
This is a great post and I want to get into a bit of why Garganacl was unbanned but Dondozo might remain banned for a while (or forever), in my personal opinion. The council may think differently regarding this, though.
The single biggest issue with Dondozo is how it warps the metagame towards a special direction due to its efficiency in shutting down physical threats. While many of the scariest Pokemon right now are physical, with Aegislash and Hawlucha being discussed for tiering action, Dondozo easily shuts these mons down, alongside the rest of the physical metagame. In fact, Dondozo switches in to every single physical attacker in the tier barring Ursaluna, Rillaboom, and Tapu Bulu; Zeraora doesn't even 2HKO with Plasma Fists. Only Rillaboom and Bulu are comfortable switching into a Dondozo as well, as Ursaluna and Zeraora just lose to +1 Dondozo.
Not only does Dondozo shut down most physical attackers, but a lot of special threats are scared to switch in. The Grasses are able to, but Avalanche Dondozo might become common to stuff Hydrapple and Serperior, and Mega Venusaur is already tasked with handling basically everything else in the metagame. Mega Gardevoir is exceedingly frail and cannot switch directly in, and Iron Moth can chunk for around 50% before going down to Liquidation. Special Aegislash is even less viable now with Garganacl stuffing most non-SD Aegi sets.
My main concern is Dondozo's abilties making Stall unreasonably hard to target. The "old" stall with Goodra-Hisui and Mega Sableye is still a major threat, and being able to upgrade Quagsire to Dondozo and swap some other pieces around would potentially make Stall too powerful. I would love a defensive piece to reign in Aegislash and Hawlucha, but Dondozo only fits on fat/stall teams and therefore doesn't remedy that issue for the majority of the metagame.
While Garganacl can similarly invalidate some mons, these mons were generally considered "fishy" or weren't relevant for the most part (think Blacephalon and Moltres-Galar floundering into TTar, and Mixed/Sub Aegislash). Its defensive role is less specialized and more widely beneficial and its Rock typing is much more exploitable than Dondozo's Water typing.
While I don't think Dondozo would be obviously broken and be Curse sweeping every game, I am worried about its influence on the tier. Our Grass-types are good but they already hold the tier together against so much that overloading them with Dondozo (or even just Garganacl) might make it difficult to build consistent team structures.
Why is drizzle still banned? Or at least, why is damp rock not banned instead?
- Tier has a ton of top tier fat water resists that cook the swift swimmers, especially the regen dudes in slowbro and hydrapple
- Hippowdon replacing Ting Lu as the fat ground gives a bunch of teams a weather setter by default plus it's an Archaludon counter. Tyranitar is also very viable
- Rillaboom should solo rain save for the obligatory bird/dragon, Lucha's speed tier into rain's lack of defensive utility should be pretty scary too
Adding rain back into the metagame would promote diversity while not limiting teambuilding given rain answers are already everywhere. But also I kind of just want to hear the rationale (if the reason isn't just that no one cares about unbanning rain), considering rain was banned years ago with tera in a completely different tier.
While this is true, often the issue with rain is the combination of 4-5 different Swift Swimmers. While Mega Swampert can be checked by Slowbro, it doesn't appreciate Swampert using Flip Turn to bring in Kingdra, or even Kingdra coming in against a Scald. In fact, Kingdra is one of the most threatening rain sweepers, and in testing has consistently proved to be difficult to stop without sacrificing other matchups (or being forced to use Gastrodon on every team). Other resists like Hydrapple are very exploitable through Ice/Dragon/Poison coverage.
- Hippowdon replacing Ting Lu as the fat ground gives a bunch of teams a weather setter by default plus it's an Archaludon counter. Tyranitar is also very viable
Hippowdon has the pretty big downside of being completely unable to switch in directly to any of the Rain abusers. This often means losing a big chunk of health when trying to remove the rain, or even if you get it in freely, most Rain threats can just Flip Turn back out to Pelliper. As for checking Archaludon, Draco Meteor does more than 50%, and Dragonium Z can easily erase Hippowdon. Not to mention the interaction is much more difficult if Archaludon already has an Electro Shot boost or Stamina boost. Archaludon can even EV to live 2 Earthquakes with Stamina. The Archaludon - Hippo interaction can also allow free reentry for Pelliper.
Tyranitar is also viable but has these same problems, as well as not even being able to switch into Archaludon.
Rain could likely slot something like Eject Button/Pack Hydrapple, Celesteela, or Scizor to help deal with Rillaboom without losing much momentum. Rillaboom would help though, yes. Against Hawlucha, Barraskewda can outspeed.
The problem with rain is not the existence of answers, but how rain so singularly forces you to run answers to specific threats on your team. Because all of Swampert, Kingdra, Barraskewda, and Basculegion are very difficult to outspeed, other offense teams are often killed off, or forced to run very specific answers to help handle these. The main offender in my mind is Kingdra; Mega Aerodactyl Excadrill teams are often completely helpless against it.
The metagame essentially becomes Rain and Bulky teams with 2/3 overlayed Rain answers to not lose to the offensive pressure. This is not something I'd like to see the metagame become.
In terms of banning Damp Rock, even 4 turns of Rain would be too much for most offense to handle, and could even make Rain more reliable as Semi-Rain structures would have better defensive tools against threats like Rillaboom and Hawlucha.
Mawile-Mega moved from NDOU to 
Serperior moved from NDOU to NDUU
Swampert-Mega moved from NDOU to NDUU
The darkness will be unchained.... just you wait....
Would like to share some thoughts after the most recent VR update and tier shifts (wow NOTHING happened)
I think moth is the tier king, with nothing rivaling the respect it forces in the builder along with understated defensive capabilities vs aegi/sciz/apple in some capacity. It is a very flexible offensive tool that you can rarely go wrong with which is why I put it at 1.01
maybe a bit of a hotter take, but sciz is my other S, with it having the freest knock in the tier, a trend that has followed sciz throughout its long tenure in other UUs (see SS UU). This enables it to be a very efficient progress maker in just about any matchup while being the most threatening cleaner in the entire tier. Other sets such as SD + Bug Z with enough speed can blow up rotom on more offensive structures asw, with band also perhaps be relevant. Defensively, it is key for keeping boulder/zam/mvenu/tias/clef/aero among others in check. Super good, cant go wrong w it
not that flexible, usually just specs or lorb bb, but still ridiculously threatening to just about everything especially with right set on the protean specs variant. I think gren has the best argument to be banworthy of anything in the tier
subtox and sd are impossible to effectively wall in one slot, with offensive pressure usually being the more reliable way. defensive utility is obviously ridiculous to supplement
was a brief period where ppl were down on this I feel like, but apple is consistently very strong, with nice experimentation with sets such as epack + zone being rly nice to surprise ppl expecting standard z dragon
im higher on victini than most i think, mainly because vcreate/tox/turn is so efficient at forcing progress into just about anything, while it also compacts nice defensive properties. I think its the most underrated mon in the tier
the defensive utility this thing has along with a ridic speed tier is invaluable for offense. rose to popularity a lot recently which is very deserved; super solid option although 4mss between taunt and a 3rd attack is annoying. 
mega gallade feels super strong, probably being underutilized although ive seen an uptick in recent times anecdotally. abuses many defensive cores easily ie rotom/ting/mvenu while clef has fallen off since gapdos ban, which also eliminated another mgallade rkiller
i found myself defaulting to amoong a lot to round out builds; it presents a super good typing with superb defensive compression for many threats like sciz, gren, aegi, and mien
offensive z dogi is one of the more potent/consistent breakers around imo, think lefties bu with sub or w/e is a waste of time tho just go 3a
kinda surprised this doesnt see more usage esp post-mttar tbh, ting mu isnt even that bad while ting itself has taken a bit of a tumble recently which opens up a lot of avenues for this mon to be annoying asf with toxic chain
a lot of teams r actually quite weak to this. try cm ghost z, maybe even nasty plot with offensive tr could be cool
C --> C+ or B-
UR --> C
A --> A+
Archaludon moved from NDOU to NDUU
Banette-Mega moved from NDOU to NDUU
Ceruledge moved from NDOU to NDUUBL
Garganacl moved from NDOU to NDUUBL
Regieleki moved from NDOU to NDUU
Shedinja moved from NDOU to NDUU
Ursaluna moved from NDOU to NDUU
Tapu Fini moved from NDUU to NDOU
Ting-Lu moved from NDUU to NDOU
Kyurem moved from NDOU to NDUUBL
Glimmora moved from NDOU to NDUU
Iron Crown moved from NDOU to NDUU
Pelipper moved from NDOU to NDUU
Rillaboom moved from NDOU to NDUU
Thanks for reading! Take care! 