This was exactly the point I was trying to make. Unbanning such a large number of Pokemon at a time will just make UU into BL, the effect of it on the current UU metagame would be so overwhelming no one could tell what centralizes what. Testing small numbers of BL pokemon may work better, that way their effect can actually be seen. Of course, there is no UU ladder, so maybe a tournament would work better?
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
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This was exactly the point I was trying to make. Unbanning such a large number of Pokemon at a time will just make UU into BL, the effect of it on the current UU metagame would be so overwhelming no one could tell what centralizes what. Testing small numbers of BL pokemon may work better, that way their effect can actually be seen. Of course, there is no UU ladder, so maybe a tournament would work better?
I didn't say anything about Advance. It's just a fact that overall BL pokes are more powerful than UU pokes (hence why they are in BL) and so players would use them more than UU pokemon. So much so (with 50 pokemon to choose from) that UU would no longer exist. You can't see what overcentralizes UU if people don't use the old UU pokes on their teams.
Yeah, but the choice of those 50 "BL" Pokemon was really due to what was OU or BL in Advance, so that our concept of DP UU was close to what was experienced in Advance UU. When Tentacruel became OU in DP, it caused a bit of surprise and almost disgruntled posts from a few people, because they were used to see it as UU in Advance. Subconsciously, we tried to mimic DP's metagames with those of Advance, and that was a mistake.
Whilst raising the standard of NU is great and all, I'm concerned as to who is actually going to play it?
There is a clear bias toward the OU metagame/ladder, that's fine, but with the possibility of a new "UU" ladder on the horizon, where's the incentive to actually play new NU/old UU?
If you could guarantee that it would see at least the same level of play as current UU, I would be less apprehensive about these changes.
However if new NU sees the same level of play as current NU (since I joined Shoddy have had 5 NU matches) then those pokemon are pretty much doomed to obscurity.
Well theres nothing stopping you using them in UU. But as it stands the current NU has things like Delcatty. I'm all for different but some of these guys are just so horribly bad that who the hell would want to play NU. Hes not suggesting a random dump of ALL BL's into UU but to just get rid of the grey area altogether by raising the standard.
I'm not sure about you but even in UU you have 'OU' UU's and little used UU's, also you'd find some UU's see even more use than the BL's in OU even. The really low end ones would simply join the new improved NU.
As others have said, how do you propose we test what is too powerful in UU when everyone will use the overpowered former BL pokemon? I dont see how it can clarify anything, it will just shift the tiers down one. BL is a faux tier made to preserve the UU metagame, and by pushing all of the BL pokemon into UU, they would greatly disrupt the metagame BL was created to protect.
I am against this. Combine UU and BL, and 90% of all teams will be made up of mostly BL's, with the vast majority of UU's moving down the NU, and the old NU's becoming completely useless. In effect, all it would be doing is making BL the secondary metagame instead of UU.
And I have found that in both Advance and D/P, most good OU players will use OU/BL anyway.
Do you get my point?
And I have found that in both Advance and D/P, most good OU players will use OU/BL anyway.
Do you get my point?
No because it was a horrible point.
OU/BL is standard anyway since they're the same thing.
BL/UU is generally illegal.
Unfortunately disruption is what this aims at. We've probably all been a little conservative with our ideas of the D/P metagame. You have to ask yourself why BL arose, from another angle. The very standard bars for the tiers are all based off Advance, BL ended up the product of a reluctance to change those definitions.
Well this will succeed at the disruption you seek, but it will fail at improving either tier. The BL's simply cannot all be tested at the same time. This means that people can just use their entire BL teams in UU, and that makes it very difficult to see what is too powerful in UU. I propose we test similar BL pokemon in batches. For example, we could first test BL physical sweepers and see which are too powerful, then test another group.
Whilst I enjoy a challenge now and then I really don't want to start all my battles with the odds heavily stacked against me ... particularly if I will be having to take on the likes of Shaymin and the Regi's.
Will efforts be made to ensure that there is a degree of balance to this new NU tier?
I think I'm sort of half and half on the idea. When dumping Borderline Pokémon into UU, I can pretty much tell you by what I see in UU, a majority of players use better preforming UU Pokémon. This means that a pattern will most likely form telling me that UU players will just use the newly accepted Borderline Pokémon, and we will essentially get very few testing done as to where they stand in the UU tier.
I think that people will just use the Borderline Pokémon a majority of the time and we will never really know where they stand against UU because we will just be battling with the Borderline Tier, with the exception of a few players.
However, I am all for testing Borderline Pokémon in UU so we can actually see where they stand instead of just basing most of the list on theorymon. Expierence and actual testing is always better than theorymon.
I just really have no idea on how we would test these Pokémon in UU when people will just be using them against each other rather than against UUs. We could always test them one at a time like we do with Deoxys or Wobbufett in OU vs Ubers, but that will take a very long time with a 50+ or so Borderline list.
I think that people will just use the Borderline Pokémon a majority of the time and we will never really know where they stand against UU because we will just be battling with the Borderline Tier, with the exception of a few players.
However, I am all for testing Borderline Pokémon in UU so we can actually see where they stand instead of just basing most of the list on theorymon. Expierence and actual testing is always better than theorymon.
I just really have no idea on how we would test these Pokémon in UU when people will just be using them against each other rather than against UUs. We could always test them one at a time like we do with Deoxys or Wobbufett in OU vs Ubers, but that will take a very long time with a 50+ or so Borderline list.
But they're all UU! How can you say 'mostly BLs' when they're UU? See, you're still thinking with the Advance mindset that all Pokemon that were OU/BL in Advance must be OU/BL in DP.
Technically they will all be UU, but people will still use the newly introduced Pokémon that were said to be too powerful for UU based on testing/theorymon.
There are already Pokémon in UU that get more use than other UUs. Once we consider all Borderline Pokémon as UU for testing purposes, people will seize said Pokémon as the stronger UUs and use them.
If time isn't an issue, I suggest we test them one by one in the UU enviornment and see if they are too powerful and then make bans to Borderline if they prove to be too powerful.
I have to agree with this. The one truly beneficial after-effect I can see this idea having is the creation of three balanced and playable tiers instead of just the two. Now before you dismiss this possibility as an impossible task I hope you at least listen to what I have to say on the matter.
With the introduction of 40-50 odd competitively viable new Pokemon in D/P, including 100+ new moves and several new abilities that have given dozens of old Pokemon more potential in competitive play, I am of the opinion that the current situation of two distinct balanced metagames, namely OU and UU, is insufficient for creating an environment in which the vast majority of the fully evolved or otherwise unique Pokemon have an opportunity to be truly competitive in their respective tier. To put this point into perspective let us take a quick look at the list of Pokemon currently 'dumped' into BL. This tier includes such Pokemon as Espeon, Feraligatr, Marowak, Honchkrow, Hariyama, Ludicolo, Tauros, Sceptile and Moltres just to name a few. Now even if you have played upwards of 200-300 battles on the OU Shoddy ladder in the last couple of weeks it is likely that you'd be able to count the number of times you have encountered each of such Pokemon on one hand (well probably not Moltres due to DT's recent thread but you get my point), yet this is the only widely recognised tier in which they are allowed to play, which concerns me as to how fair the current system is. When you consider that there are now over 50 such Pokemon, this screams to me that there is a step missing somewhere in between. BL is not a balanced tier because nobody has yet tried to make it so, all that has happened is Pokemon that are not commonly used have been judged based on their power and the most unbalancing chucked into a faux tier without a second's thought about the consequences. This is mainly due to backwards thinking with regards to tier structure, as many have already stated. However, does it have to be this way? I think not, as I believe the majority of the current BLs can co-exist in the same tier, and the new environment could allow current UUs to find a niche in the new tier that allows them to be viable Pokemon there, as well as resolve any disputes regarding Pokemon teeterng on the edge of UU such as Pinsir, Clefable and whatnot. If certain Pokemon are considered too unbalancing for this new tier then we can just move them up to OU regardless of their usage. These Pokemon will most likely be considered outcasts in this environment, but the number of them will be far less than the number of current BL Pokemon I think we can all agree. What's more, a lot of BL Pokemon are favourites of many potential battlers (hell, my favourites include Empoleon, Uxie and Ursaring), and if all of these Pokemon are given a tier in which they are competitive this will surely help keep more people interested in Competitive battling. Once this tier has been resolved, there will still be room for a third tier, most likely the equivalent of UU now but slightly weaker, for all the weaker Pokemon we know and love to compete in together.
In short, I agree completely with X-Act, Obi, Forsety and everyone else who thinks the current system is out of date and that changes must be made in order for the D/P metagame as a whole to reach its full potential. Sorry about the long post.
I strongly support renaming the BL tier UU, and moving any currently UU pokemon that can't cut it in the new tier down to NU. BL has 60 pokes in it, compared to UUs 67. Making 60 FE pokemon unusuable just to preserve the status quo is pretty ridiculous.
Also, it seems the only reason people are against merging BL is UU is that they want UU to stay the way it was in ADV, with Hypno and Walrein and Hitmonlee as the stars of the show. That's very republican of people.
Also, it seems the only reason people are against merging BL is UU is that they want UU to stay the way it was in ADV, with Hypno and Walrein and Hitmonlee as the stars of the show. That's very republican of people.
The tier list I have has 59 BL's to 145 UU's.
Can I ask whether you have actually played any UU recently? Only the ADV "stars of the show" you mention have fallen in prominance, some quite considerably.
Hypno usage has eroded considerably, having lost ground to Probopass, Shuckle, Muk and even Noctowl in the special walling department.
Walrein is virtually unseen outside of Hail teams, which are only really found in higher tiers of play.
Hitmonlee, is the only one that still sees any usage, although even he is not getting his own way since Claydol got moved down.
The current stars of the show are the likes of Pinsir, Ninetales and Glaceon.
So my apprehensions regarding the merge really have nothing to do with wanting UU to stay the same as ADV.
To be perfectly honest, I'd like to know what was stopping people from creating a competitively BL metagame in ADV and or DP? The only thing that I've heard against this was the fact the BL itself was imbalanced. If so why not ban those pokemon until you have a balanced metagame?
The current UU pokemon/meta can be preserved, it's just the BL pokemon that need to be tested against each other. Names aren't really important so please don't bring that up if you respond to this. The tiers can be renamed.
OU is fleshed out, UU (Perhaps it now adopts the name NU) is fleshed out. Now it's the BL pokemon that need to be tested. Dropping the BL into UU would be the equivalent of dropping all of the Ubers into the OU metagame, it's mass chaos(well even more chaotic than dropping ubers because of the fact that there are so many BL pokemon) and I don't see how doing that would be more productive than creating a separate thread to purpose and inact ideas to turn BL (Again names aren't important) into a viable metagame.
The current UU pokemon/meta can be preserved, it's just the BL pokemon that need to be tested against each other. Names aren't really important so please don't bring that up if you respond to this. The tiers can be renamed.
OU is fleshed out, UU (Perhaps it now adopts the name NU) is fleshed out. Now it's the BL pokemon that need to be tested. Dropping the BL into UU would be the equivalent of dropping all of the Ubers into the OU metagame, it's mass chaos(well even more chaotic than dropping ubers because of the fact that there are so many BL pokemon) and I don't see how doing that would be more productive than creating a separate thread to purpose and inact ideas to turn BL (Again names aren't important) into a viable metagame.
im a frequent UU player, and i would have to agree with shiny as well on that one.
I think I prefer evolutia's notion of creating a more balanced environment for all those borderline / moderately used pokemon, perhaps augmented by moving the contentious pokemon currently operating under the label "UU" upward.
That way the impact upon the current UU metagame would be less dramatic, and NU would be precisely what it is now, a more or less dead concept.
So can I take it that you approve of the implementation of a third tier to fit between the current OU and UU which accomodates all the current BL Pokemon and possibly a few others?
If so allow me to share with you how I see things panning out. The way I see it, by testing out a metagame involving all Pokemon BL and below, which is in essence what Obi is proposing, what we will end up with is a metagame dominated by those very BL Pokemon, with the exception of a few niche UU Pokemon who thrive in the new environment due to a series of beneficial metagame factors. This I do not doubt. This is because, by the way we have defined BL, all BL Pokemon are considered overpowering in UU, so it is logical to believe that the majority of UU will be overwhelmed by the power of this new tier and therefore see very little use. However, I don't see this as a bad thing, especially when you see how many BL Pokemon there are and how interesting and unique they are in their own right (no, Blaziken is NOT Infernape-lite: different movepool and stat distribution means they play rather differently). If what is more or less BL as it is now can be made into a balanced second tier to OU, with most current UU Pokemon literally 'underused' within this second tier, and therefore able to form a third tier as the almost exact equivalent of UU as it is now, can you give me one reason why that is not worth pursuing?
Or perhaps you see things panning out rather differently to this. Either way, I would like to hear your reasoning to back up your case.
I think it is pointless to test out "all the BL pokemon and below" when all that's needed to be tested are the BL pokemon themselves. By throwing the current BL pokemon into the same tier as the UU (Names aren't important) your just going to find yourself a huge mass of chaos that's not even needed. There will be some select UU pokemon that can compete in the BL metagame but that's hardly as huge as moving all the BL pokemon into a tier with pokemon that they will bulldoze over.
Perhaps there is something that I'm not seeing, if so please elaborate. What do you gain by testing all the BL pokemon and below; that you do not gain by just testing out the BL pokemon?
In essence you're both describing the same thing from different ends of the spectrum.
On one hand you have "move BL down to UU" (obi's proposal et al), which would mass test BL in UU and then force us to retest everything below that to create the balance of "NU" (former UU basically). So one set of tests to create BL/UU and another set of tests for UU/NU (former/new labeling).
On the other hand you have evolutia's suggestion which is essentially "rename BL to UU and UU to NU", then test the [new] UU for what might be an overcentralizing force since BL has long been toted as an unbalanced tier. Should any be found, they get recondemned to BL limbo. Possibly move debatable things up from [old] UU to [new] UU for testing as well.
Overall the results will probably prove to be about the same, but I think evolutia's suggestion is cleaner.
On one hand you have "move BL down to UU" (obi's proposal et al), which would mass test BL in UU and then force us to retest everything below that to create the balance of "NU" (former UU basically). So one set of tests to create BL/UU and another set of tests for UU/NU (former/new labeling).
On the other hand you have evolutia's suggestion which is essentially "rename BL to UU and UU to NU", then test the [new] UU for what might be an overcentralizing force since BL has long been toted as an unbalanced tier. Should any be found, they get recondemned to BL limbo. Possibly move debatable things up from [old] UU to [new] UU for testing as well.
Overall the results will probably prove to be about the same, but I think evolutia's suggestion is cleaner.
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