OU ORAS OU Discussion Thread

[mixnite]

dark pulse is mandatory but the last two moves can be a bunch of things like roost if you want hydrei to last long but you can also slot taunt in that slot for more offensive builds
the last move is more team dependent but i like earth power because you own bisharp and heatran and exca while also preventing diancie from coming in for free
draco can be used for raw damage on pokémon that don't fear either pulse and ep like zard-y and guys like keldeo on the switch. it also lets you drop kyurem and tankchomp who can eat a few dark pulses and do big damage back with dragon tail or ice beam

 

[UltraSword]

dark pulse is mandatory but the last two moves can be a bunch of things like roost if you want hydrei to last long but you can also slot taunt in that slot for more offensive builds
the last move is more team dependent but i like earth power because you own bisharp and heatran and exca while also preventing diancie from coming in for free
draco can be used for raw damage on pokémon that don't fear either pulse and ep like zard-y and guys like keldeo on the switch. it also lets you drop kyurem and tankchomp who can eat a few dark pulses and do big damage back with dragon tail or ice beam

Hmmmm well so far I have dark pulse flash cannon and fire blast do you think I should replace any of those moves?

Edit: also to give some more context I am thinking of using mega gallade on this team

 

[mixnite]

it's funny that you say that because i've also been experimenting with twave hydrei on gallade teams after seeing devin use it a few times
to answer your question I'd drop fire blast because it's only real target is ferrothorn and gallade already owns it
flash cannon is alright but i'd only used it if the team ends up being really weak to fairies who come in for free on hydrei like clef
something like this should suffice;

Hydreigon @ Yache/ Chople Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power

this is a pretty generic spread that outspeeds exca. i'm sure you can be more specific about your evs but this should suffice for now
run yache or chople depending on who goobs you more between weavile and alakazam

 

[UltraSword]

it's funny that you say that because i've also been experimenting with twave hydrei on gallade teams after seeing devin use it a few times
to answer your question I'd drop fire blast because it's only real target is ferrothorn and gallade already owns it
flash cannon is alright but i'd only used it if the team ends up being really weak to fairies who come in for free on hydrei like clef
something like this should suffice;

Hydreigon @ Yache/ Chople Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power

this is a pretty generic spread that outspeeds exca. i'm sure you can be more specific about your evs but this should suffice for now
run yache or chople depending on who goobs you more between weavile and alakazam

So that looks good but why roost? It probably isn't bad but despite hydreigon having nice bulk its defensive typing betrays that so shouldn't you use something like taunt or a 3rd attacking move instead?

 

[mixnite]

it's defensive typing is a lot better than you'd think some pokemon have performed better with worse (tyranitar) don't sleep on it. roost lets hydrei sit on pokemon like volcanion and is invaluable in the fat mu. it also has the benefit of letting you come back from near death after eating a focus blast or high jump kick or icicle crash as well as letting you completely shut down the afformentioned volcanion if it tries to break you with repeated steam eruptions with rocks up
as for a third attacking move i don't really see the draw because you already hit all of your targets with just twave, dark pulse and earth power. i could see draco being used on that slot to smash garchomp and lopunny and weavile, etc. but it's more of a luxury
in the case of taunt it could be used on offense alongside twave for sure

 

[UltraSword]

it's defensive typing is a lot better than you'd think some pokemon have performed better with worse (tyranitar) don't sleep on it. roost lets hydrei sit on pokemon like volcanion and is invaluable in the fat mu. it also has the benefit of letting you come back from near death after eating a focus blast or high jump kick or icicle crash as well as letting you completely shut down the afformentioned volcanion if it tries to break you with repeated steam eruptions with rocks up
as for a third attacking move i don't really see the draw because you already hit all of your targets with just twave, dark pulse and earth power. i could see draco being used on that slot to smash garchomp and lopunny and weavile, etc. but it's more of a luxury
in the case of taunt it could be used on offense alongside twave for sure

And 2 more things before I try this. First off I replaced the berries you suggested with roselia berry (the one that blocks Fairy moves) because I feel like Fairy types are more likely to switch in on hydreigon than the other types. Second off am I allowed to post replays here? I am a bit low ladder but I am somewhat good at the game.

 

[mixnite]

don't use roseli berry it's a lost cause
also feel feel to post replays idt there are any rules against it

 

[UltraSword]

Well this is my 4th game with the team. I wish I could say it was the first but I don't want to talk about what happened in the first 3 games. I also wish I can say that I actually used hydreigon for its intended purpose but uuuuuh... https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ou-2231311558-rrpm0b5fnb81qyod6o4yo049llc604qpw

 

[mixnite]

ok i have a lot to say but i don't wanna give teambuilding advice on this forum head to the oras discord and share the team there

 

[Ithi]

Alright, after my first experiment was a literal disaster. I'd like to tackle another demon that is not the infamous mu fish moth. Rather, I'd like to discuss one of the top-tier threats in the form of Weavile. It turns out when you have absolutely amazing offensive dual typing with ice/dark, an incredible speed tier and good enough attack when slapped with a choice band. You can very easily overwhelm a majority of the metagame. Icicle crash, Ice shard, Knock Off and Pursuit is merely its staple set with choice band. We've seen how insanely customizable this pokemon is as well in beat-up sixes, swords dance, sash, lum, and even taunt. With these tools, customizability and relatively easy support to overwhelm its checks, its risen as a top-tier threat that's only getting better the more offensively natured this metagame becomes.

 

[UltraSword]

Alright, after my first experiment was a literal disaster. I'd like to tackle another demon that is not the infamous mu fish moth. Rather, I'd like to discuss one of the top-tier threats in the form of Weavile. It turns out when you have absolutely amazing offensive dual typing with ice/dark, an incredible speed tier and good enough attack when slapped with a choice band. You can very easily overwhelm a majority of the metagame. Icicle crash, Ice shard, Knock Off and Pursuit is merely its staple set with choice band. We've seen how insanely customizable this pokemon is as well in beat-up sixes, swords dance, sash, lum, and even taunt. With these tools, customizability and relatively easy support to overwhelm its checks, its risen as a top-tier threat that's only getting better the more offensively natured this metagame becomes.

I have to say oras weavile is my favorite one to use for all of these reasons but also because it has very easy counters that make it balanced such as most fighting types clefable mega diancie heatran and plenty of others. Weavile is even fun to play against because it is a cool challenge trying to figure out exactly how you are going to counter it. Overall weavile is definitely in my top 10 or even 5 favorite mons to use in oras

 

[mixnite]

because it has very easy counters that make it balanced

my brother most weavile switch ins have a very realistic chance of losing to flinch like clef and skarmory. the only real "counter" to weavile is being faster like mega lop or being able to prevent yourself from dying to flinch like mega scizor and healthy mega gallade
you have to acknowledge the inherent brokenness of weavile

 

[UltraSword]

my brother most weavile switch ins have a very realistic chance of losing to flinch like clef and skarmory. the only real "counter" to weavile is being faster like mega lop or being able to prevent yourself from dying to flinch like mega scizor and healthy mega gallade
you have to acknowledge the inherent brokenness of weavile

Well MY brother I understand where you are coming from but weavile is not broken in oras. First off though Gen 8 was a more powerful meta ss weavile is still better than oras weavile and if ss weavile isn't considered broken/banworthy than oras weavile definitely isn't.

As for more concrete arguments weavile is obviously extremely frail which means it is easily revenge killed by either faster pokemon pokemon with priority moves and the pokemon that straight up wall it. Which speaking of pokemon that wall it thanks to choice band locking you into one move even if you kill the opposing pokemon unless you played through the battle enough to where the opponent doesn't have one (which is one of the most satisfying parts of competitive singles) the opponent can just throw out whatever resists or tanks that move weavile just used.

In the case of pokemon that are actual dedicated counters there are 2 pokemon that wall it completely in keldeo (who resists every move weavile normally runs and weighs enough for low kick to only have 60 bp against it) and scizor (both but especially mega scizor since both shake off all of weavile's moves fairly well threaten it with bullet punch and in the case of mega scizor can't have its item knocked off). There are other checks too like clefable (especially if you used pursuit or ice shard) breloom (Mach punch go brrrr) landorus therian (if you didn't use an ice move obviously) azumarill (honestly this borders on being a genuine counter as well but it doesn't like knock off that much) thundurus incarnate (who also doesn't like ice type moves and doesn't even one shot without focus blast but has priority thunder wave) and plenty of others that may be even better than the ones I mentioned.

Finally there is weavile's obvious weakness to stealth rock (and the biggest difference between oras and ss weavile) which makes it go from already frail to needing life support.

Anyway I think I explained well enough why weavile while a high/top tier does have plenty of ways to beat it and it can be played around without sacrificing a spot on your team specifically to counter it. I know this is a really long post but I just want you all to understand why I believe weavile isn't broken. Thank you for reading and if you have your own opinions please say them respectfully

 

[mixnite]

it is easily revenge killed by either faster pokemon pokemon with priority moves and the pokemon that straight up wall it.

if your only reliable counterplay is being revenge killed that is a tell-tale sign of utter brokenness

In the case of pokemon that are actual dedicated counters there are 2 pokemon that wall it completely in keldeo (who resists every move weavile normally runs and weighs enough for low kick to only have 60 bp against it) and scizor (both but especially mega scizor since both shake off all of weavile's moves fairly well threaten it with bullet punch and in the case of mega scizor can't have its item knocked off). There are other checks too like clefable (especially if you used pursuit or ice shard) breloom (Mach punch go brrrr) landorus therian (if you didn't use an ice move obviously) azumarill (honestly this borders on being a genuine counter as well but it doesn't like knock off that much) thundurus incarnate (who also doesn't like ice type moves and doesn't even one shot without focus blast but has priority thunder wave) and plenty of others that may be even better than the ones I mentioned.

keldeo? hates knock and dies in 3
azumarill? see above
thundurus? can never switch in and dies to the faster ice shard after rocks
clefable? is dead to a single flinch or is straight up 2hko'd if it has special defense investment for alakazam and diancie, etc
breloom? is dead to ice shard after rocks
landorus? can only come in on knock off and still takes huge damage, stuff in 3
you've missed bullet punch mega metagross, mega lopunny, volcanion, bisharp, skarmory and talonflame all of which either cannot switch in without losing their item and thus getting crippled (volcanion) taking at least 70% (lop, meta, talon) or straight up dying to flinch (skarmory) barring bisharp who suffers the same fate of keldeo
the only weavile counter is mega scizor. everything else is a check and cannot beat weavile over the course of a game but rather hope to slow it down

Finally there is weavile's obvious weakness to stealth rock (and the biggest difference between oras and ss weavile) which makes it go from already frail to needing life support.

do not be deceived. firstly, weavile doesn't switch that much which limits it's susceptibility to being ruined by hazards and this coupled with the fact that hazard removal is not difficult to fit into oras (excadrill and zapdos and latias for offense teams do a fine job) makes weaviles life even easier and allows it more opportunities to abuse it's punisher role in the tier to broken levels
overall while yes you've made theorised good points as to why weavile shouldn't be considered broken, they do not hold up to the reality of the situation that time and time again shows where there is a weavile there is a way

 

[UltraSword]

if your only reliable counterplay is being revenge killed that is a tell-tale sign of utter brokenness

keldeo? hates knock and dies in 3
azumarill? see above
thundurus? can never switch in and dies to the faster ice shard after rocks
clefable? is dead to a single flinch or is straight up 2hko'd if it has special defense investment for alakazam and diancie, etc
breloom? is dead to ice shard after rocks
landorus? can only come in on knock off and still takes huge damage, stuff in 3
you've missed bullet punch mega metagross, mega lopunny, volcanion, bisharp, skarmory and talonflame all of which either cannot switch in without losing their item and thus getting crippled (volcanion) taking at least 70% (lop, meta, talon) or straight up dying to flinch (skarmory) barring bisharp who suffers the same fate of keldeo
the only weavile counter is mega scizor. everything else is a check and cannot beat weavile over the course of a game but rather hope to slow it down

do not be deceived. firstly, weavile doesn't switch that much which limits it's susceptibility to being ruined by hazards and this coupled with the fact that hazard removal is not difficult to fit into oras (excadrill and zapdos and latias for offense teams do a fine job) makes weaviles life even easier and allows it more opportunities to abuse it's punisher role in the tier to broken levels
overall while yes you've made theorised good points as to why weavile shouldn't be considered broken, they do not hold up to the reality of the situation that time and time again shows where there is a weavile there is a way

Look obviously weavile is very strong but I do think it has a lot of checks and counters that make it bearable. I think we should just agree to disagree on this because while I do like discussing weavile I do not want this thread to turn into a war zone over whether weavile is broken or not.

 

[mixnite]

I wanted to spark up some discussion about the potential unbanning of Baton Pass with the restriction of not allowing stats to be passed. Essentially, I'd like for 'drypass' to be unbanned. It wouldn't necessarily be a massive tier defining change or anything but rather a mostly negligible change with the exception of providing some Pokémon like Celebi a small niche in avoiding Pursuit from threats like Tyranitar

 

[tahatahat]

I have no idea why we'd ever ban drypass tbh lol, I concur with this wholeheartedly

I wanted to spark up some discussion about the potential unbanning of Baton Pass with the restriction of not allowing stats to be passed. Essentially, I'd like for 'drypass' to be unbanned. It wouldn't necessarily be a massive tier defining change or anything but rather a mostly negligible change with the exception of providing some Pokémon like Celebi a small niche in avoiding Pursuit from threats like Tyranitar

 

[UltraSword]

I wanted to spark up some discussion about the potential unbanning of Baton Pass with the restriction of not allowing stats to be passed. Essentially, I'd like for 'drypass' to be unbanned. It wouldn't necessarily be a massive tier defining change or anything but rather a mostly negligible change with the exception of providing some Pokémon like Celebi a small niche in avoiding Pursuit from threats like Tyranitar

Sure why not lol. Quick question tho would passing substitute count as dry pass?

 

[MANNAT]

Unbanning drypass just so that Celebi can baton pass out of pursuit vs Tyranitar isn't really in line with tiering policy. Over complicating rulesets for minimal gain isn't really something smogon does for modern generations. Baton Pass being banned outright in fairy gens has been a good system that's worked and I don't really see much point in adding a drypassing rule. "Collateral" for bans is really only a factor to consider when it is significant.

 

[AM]

not really sure what to extent this discussion is going to really last, seeing as whatever tiering that has been suggested recently is related to the Kings Rock/Sand Veil thread and idk how much traction that's going to realistically get. The hard BP ban was a ruleset so that we have a very simple ban instead of the dancing around for years we wasted on trying to complex clause it so that we can use the niche things nobody particularly cared about or find out the partial bans were still broken/cheese.

For what it's worth, I don't think anybody that plays mons for any sort of extended period of time thinks drypassing on paper is an issue practically. But as mentioned above you are forced to create more complex bans to not have certain stat passers allowed to adhere to drypass being allowed on the mon. Celebi dodging Tyranitar's pursuit as the example to unban it is also not really a great example present day. I thought this discussion was interesting when I first saw it so I put together the OU viable mons (imo) that would even consider it.

Scolipede: Can't run BP with Speed boost ability, and Speed Boost is a large part why this mon is even usable.

Mew: Probably won't ever run it, can't stat pass, loses a moveslot that would be more useful as a Utility mon.

Gliscor: Only really applicable to U-Turn variants, where BP would be over U-turn now.

Zapdos: Possible, but there is a legality issue with Static. The only real practical example of dodging slower pursuiters, so maybe relevant for stall? probably not realistically.

Lopunny: This is the big one that I think the above users who were okay with the unban did not think about. Lopunnys filler move is usually up to debate depending on team, preference. Effectively though with a drypass unban you give Lopunny a non-contact U-turn, which I think is a big change because now the defensive mons that are suppose to switch in to punish with Helmet damage, Cofa, etc. can get BP'd on into say Weavile or any other breaker, mon that removes these mons, gaining more momentum for the Lopunny user. This a much larger meta-game change.

Again, not expecting anything out of this discussion to happen but some things to consider.

 

[mixnite]

i understand the reasons behind not allowing drypass and i think they're perfectly reasonable. i'm just interested in discussing how the tier might shift with the small change. this comment by AM is super interesting the more you think about it

Lopunny: This is the big one that I think the above users who were okay with the unban did not think about. Lopunnys filler move is usually up to debate depending on team, preference. Effectively though with a drypass unban you give Lopunny a non-contact U-turn, which I think is a big change because now the defensive mons that are suppose to switch in to punish with Helmet damage, Cofa, etc. can get BP'd on into say Weavile or any other breaker, mon that removes these mons, gaining more momentum for the Lopunny user. This a much larger meta-game change.

the expansion of lop's already super customisable movepool would add some very fun variance to the tier and i think bp would find itself amongst the likes of encore in terms of splashability for lop's fourth move. it's similar to copycat that expands lop's wide movepool by letting gain a fourth move like u-turn or spikes

 

[ant4456]

I'm a drypass enjoyer, just gotta have a well thought out list of stuff in the clause. I think beyond just meta mons impact it can also buff a lot of lesser Pokemon as well, potentially even bringing them to higher viability in healthy ways.

 

[Vileman]

There's no real reason to free dry pass or whatever lol let's discuss stuff that's actually interesting instead

Weavile owns. CB is by far my favorite set as it makes progress in pretty much every matchup, and pursuit is a very potent tool to enable teammates to work.

Another topic I'd like to bring up is Mega Pinsir. This mon feels like it has so much potential as it hits like a Fucking Truck, the damage calcs are actually nuts...but how do you approach building for it? I've yet to see a team that brings the most out of it. Being 4x weak to rocks and a breaker is kinda counterintuitive to me, as you want to get into the field as much as possible in order to break through walls, but this means removal support is a must, which is very restrictive considering the few viable removal options of the tier.
Overall, do you find mega pinsir worth it? I've tried to make it work but so far haven't found a nice 6 for it (closest thing is old bird spam)

 

[MANNAT]

Weavile owns. CB is by far my favorite set as it makes progress in pretty much every matchup, and pursuit is a very potent tool to enable teammates to work.

Beat up has been gaining traction lately, and it's been really nice having a strong dark move to dodge contact punishing that usually comes with Knock Off. Weavile's always been pretty broken given the lack of consistent defensive answers for it, and it can demolish teams if you can play around the rocks weakness.

Overall, do you find mega pinsir worth it? I've tried to make it work but so far haven't found a nice 6 for it (closest thing is old bird spam)

Haven't been able to find a good structure for it unfortunately, but it's always been a sick threat on paper.

 

[mixnite]

Weavile owns. CB is by far my favorite set as it makes progress in pretty much every matchup, and pursuit is a very potent tool to enable teammates to work.

1000%
weavile is volcarona tier broken in my books. even if you bring 6 weavile counters it will leave its mark due to the broken-ness of knock off and the evil that is potential crash flinch

Beat up has been gaining traction lately, and it's been really nice having a strong dark move to dodge contact punishing that usually comes with Knock Off. Weavile's always been pretty broken given the lack of consistent defensive answers for it, and it can demolish teams if you can play around the rocks weakness.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-713621