Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

i was building a zard y sun team and I noticed that there are only 2 proto mons left that are actually good the rest are pretty ass. A lot of the reason mons like walking wake were banned was because of their strength in combination with mega zard y. I thought why not ban Mega Charzard Y (absolute menace anyway) and unban some of the proto mons after the tera ban something like Roaring Moon won't be as threatening a sweeper for non sun teams. this would make sun so much more than just mega charzard y + raging bolt and maybe a venusaor if you're feeling a bit crazy. i think that mega charzard y would make a good suspect test following the tera ban. interested to see what other people think of this take.
Moon is a mon that may get suspect tested in the future anyways if the unban slate has anything to say.

Wake however is still absolutely absurd with Z-move access, and the playerbase would likely simply use Torkoal/Ninetales to enable it instead if Zard Y ever gets the boot.

And outside of that those two mentioned mons, the only other two Proto mons in Ubers is Gouging Fire and Flutter Mane, the former still maybe broken with Z-move access (def not as busted as Wake) and the latter is still Flutter Mane lmao.
 
imo it'd be nice to have forum tournaments freeing one (or multiple?) unban candidates so we get some more experience with them before we actually suspect them. I believe the standard 2 week of suspect laddering and some friendlies can not be enough to generate enough experience with the mon, and suspects being decided by basically theorymonning would suck. It might slow things down a bit although nothing would prevent us from suspecting something to be banned while one of these tours go on
 
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get it gone please, thank you
 
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I noticed Shedinja was unbanned and wanted to build an annoying stall team around it. It is a decent team and can fish a lot of match ups. Worst thing is King Gambit being used so much and especially pursuit. Tyranitar + Hoopa Unbound destroy this team as well since there no real counterplay to it.
You can change Clodsire to be a lot of different pokemon. Clodsire can be anything like Toxapex/Scizor/Quag/Dondozo/Skeledirge. Corviknight can also be changed to Skarmory or Weezing-Galar which can be used to beat a lot of Regenerator pokemon.

I don't know the EVs so you can change them
Team: https://pokepast.es/1ebe11f676ecff9b
Verison with Weezing: https://pokepast.es/ce390c49889dff9e

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247891601-1beejwoh17w0sg1qae4z7r776c10xb6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247710119-dv4zolr4lte7mt1qjp3uaa46kxak9nypw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247436062-vgatc5hj9mrt387nmp4izx7ru4osh9wpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247455387
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247667604?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247661138
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247441553?p2
 
So far I have found Melmetal to be quite mid. It can be annoying to face for sure, but checks like Helmet Bro, Ferrothorn, Lando-T, Rotom-W, Zapdos, Moltres, and more are being spammed so I find it hard for it for it to click anything without losing momentum or being punished. What really sucks is a lot of these Pokemon like Lando-T & Toxapex are paired together so every turn feels like a 50/50. Compared to other Steel-types like Ghold, Gambit, Ferro, Heatran, etc. I find its defensive utility to be noticeably worse due to a lack of Recovery. In fairness, I have never been good at using this Pokemon - I found it to be very mediocre last gen as well - but I was hoping something would click this time. I feel this Pokemon will only get worse over time when sets like Rocky Helmet Ghold start getting used.

Garchomp IMO is pretty crazy rn. Z-SD tears apart a lot of these common cores that involve either Zap / Moltres or Ghold and only requires a moderate amount of chip on Lando for it to beat that as well. One of the best hazard setters in general, as it can beat pretty much every hazard remover / Defogger barring Corv and full health Terapagos. I don't find it awful vs gambit either with Z, as it can act as an OK Knock absorber. Pairs well with Ghold, which can handle Zamazaenta + Fairies it may struggle with. Great tusk is also crazy - very strong offensive Pokemon that has a lot of utility vs endgame gambit and destroys many other mons like Ghold, Samu, Raging Bolt, etc.

Been spamming offensive Terapagos to plug holes in most of my teams. Spin is too good and it has the added benefit of emergency checking just about anything you want it to thanks to Tera Shell. I do feel this mon's alure atm is new toy syndrome, but it is nice having another decently viable spinner that isn't Tusk + its defensive synergy is better on various teams. And its surprise factor with good coverage + strong Tera starstorm is still good at catching many players off guard. Personally find it to be far more consistently useful than Melmetal lmao.
 
Internet inexplicably went out last night (like 9-10PM) for me in the middle of building so that was weird. Anyways, it's only been a couple days so far but already I've been greatly enjoying playing this tier since the Tera ban. I've seen a lot more variety to the teams being run, and not just in the types of teams (although it's been really refreshing to see a range of Balance, BO and offense alike). The kinds of mons I've been seeing haven't just been the major unbanned targets, but also a host of unique options that I think are pretty freaking cool to see. Some of them I wouldn't have thought about before, but seeing them in action it puts into perspective the possibilities.

Right then. Some random thoughts

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Mega Venu is a mon I always felt rather wishy-washy on during the Tera era, as in some match ups it felt fairly annoying to break past but other times it wouldn't do to much, which was often made more annoying by Tera if something could use the mechanic to set up on it somehow. Now however, it feels actually pretty alright. Compresses checks to a decent amount of things into one slot (Koko, Valiant, MDiancie) and especially Wellspring (I'll be getting to this mon in a moment) which for Balance is invaluable. It's already been said elsewhere in the thread but Venu+Ting-Lu is pretty good, and its being nonpassive is a great bonus as far as grass types go. Only complaint with this one aside from hazard vulnerability is a minor case of 4MSS at times but I like it.

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Similarly, Ting-Lu has surprised me in this new metagame. While I don't think it quite reaches the heights of its dominance in SV OU (at least not yet who knows), it feels a good bit better than during the Tera meta. Perhaps that has to do with it being less prone to being overwhelmed by same-type tera or just being overwhelmed by HO stacking big threats, but there's more it can do now and stick around longer this time. The massive natural bulk ensures it can soft check a ton of things in an emergency, Checks Koko, Mega Tyranitar, Excadrill (if you wanna run sand for some reason), hard counters Moth, Zapdos and Raging Bolt, Terapagos, can check Pult and Dengo, yeah. Also if you want something cursed and hilarious

228 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 224-266 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah. Pretty neat mon.

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I've noticed since the Tera ban that quite a number of teams are NOT respecting this mon anymore as if it's not a threat anymore, and so I've witnessed more than a few Wellsprings flattening those teams. This mon is still cracked, if not a bit better post Tera, as there isn't the option to reactively tera to hopefully slow it down. Checks like Mega Latis are vulnerable to Pursuit Gambit/MTtar. and its speed tier remains comfortably good as a breaker. And if you want a mon that dunks on all those Melm/Mola squads? Standard SD+Stabs+Superpower destroys them if they don't pack a Tangrowth/MVenu.

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Grouping both in as they're both similar in function to a degree, but Zapdos and Moltres both feel good and fairly customizable in terms of movesets. I kinda don't like Defog on Zap because it has too many better moves (and kinda sucks at keeping rocks off as often, but they are both great status distributors and stops to a number of threats, and Moltres in particular is a good check to Iron Valiant, Volcarona and various fighting types lacking rock coverage. Also I noticed a lot of rain teams opting for Raging Bolt over Zapdos, but if I'm being honest I think you can and should run both since they don't overlap in weaknesses and Zapdos is sorta nutty under rain.

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Lastly the trifecta of top steels we got back recently. I think the overall ranking of these three is pretty similar and you could argue for any order in terms of the best to worst (but they're all excellent, to be clear) among them. Personally, Melmetal has felt about what I expected and possibly the best of the dropped steels. What it lacks in sweeping outright it makes up for in sturdiness and set variety, alongside a great progress making power. Kingambit has overall good, but it definitely is pretty exploitable by good teambuilding that stack competent checks to it. It can still clean house vs weakened teams, but it really has to work for that (and by extension the rest of its team has to help). Honestly I think Pursuit/Knock based utility is better right now. Gholdengo I haven't seen as much as I expected and the ones I have seen haven't been as nuts as I thought it'd be. Greater pursuit threat limits it now and it's easier to punish than before.

Also :Dragapult: do be kinda funny and maybe a little silly still. I think we should give it some time before coming to hard conclusions on it, but it's the one drop that may be a tiny bit questionable.

Again overall really enjoying the new meta a lot and I hope you all are as well!
 
Man, it sure feels good, doesnt it?
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Ever since tera getting yeeted out of the tier, the game now feels more interactive between both players, as they go back and forth throughout the game, whereas previously with tera one felt it was walking on eggshells trying to force their tera out, and pray you dont get obliterated so that your plays can go trough. And with the returning of several mons to the tier, most of us are feeling like kids going to a Toys R Us, with so many toys to play with. And while playing with the "new toys" (Melmetal my beloved) I also began analyzing the other mons in the tier, and how their current positions are likely to shift for the better or worse. So here are my predicting rise and drops for the meta, now what im saying isnt 100% set in stone, so take it with a grain of salt.

Rises:
:magnezone:
Previously magnezone simply wasn't capable of doing it's job properly, which was to trap and eliminate steels, as they can simply terastalize and get away scot free from magnezone. Sure, you could say that on paper Magnezone was useful by forcing an early tera on the opponent, but in practice, it never added to much of anything, and was more or less dead weight on a team. Now with tera gone, Magnezone can finally do what it does best, eliminating metal birds, red ants, and whatever plant Ferrothorn is based on... for it's teammates. It also has the potential to trap newcomers like Melmetal and Kingambit, do it might probably have to adapt a diferent set for those two. But as long as a steels have a role, so does Mag.

:moltres:
With the reintroduction of Gholendo, many players are very likely to start utilizing hazard staking teams more commonly, wheather its stall, balance or hyper offense teams. And defoggers that can pose a treat to Gholdengo are going to be welcomed, such as Moltres, with its good typing amd bulk letting it scare Gholdengo off the field with Flamethower or Mystical Fire. Once dengo leaves it can the proceed to clean them up no problem. It can also do well against the likes of Melmetal and Kingambit, do it has to be aware of potential Knock Off of the latter.

:clefable:
Balanced teams are finally making a comeback with the removal of Terastalization. Sure, they were capable os utilizing tera to great effect and all, but it was never the style that enjoyed tera the most, that honor went to offense teams. And with Clefable being a forefront center piece of many balanced teams, it is bound to see high usage on these structures. Especially against teams that heavily rely on hazard stacking to make progress, allowing to make the most of its amazing movepool.

:great tusk:
Great Tusk is already and excellent mon, but with Kingambit returning to the scene, players are looking for bulky fighters that can take it, bulky fighters like Great Tusk. Tusk can also handle some variants of Gholdengo and get rid of hazards still, do it might consider starting to run more Knock Off now on its moveset, seeing the potential of removing boots from the opponents team, making it also a great Gholdengo ally.

:alomomola:
With the uprise of balance teams, Alomomola + Melmetal has started strong as a decent balanced core. With Melmetal being an amazing wallbreaker, with great bulk and typing, of which Alomomola can come in and heal off back to almost full, making for its lack of reliable healing, and allowing to bash the opponent once again. It can also pair well with Kingambit and Zamazenta, providing them more longevity and thus more opportunities to smack the opponent. Alomomola was already decent beforehand in some teams, but it was more of a niche mon, since the meta was more offensively oriented, but now that the waves are more calmed, mola is more likely to see a splash.

:glimmora:
With introduction of Gholdengo to the tier, players are experimenting with more hazard stacking teams, and what mon spits out hazard more than Glimmora? (If anyone has a better answer, let me know). Glimmora + Gholdengo is very likely going to be a new route hyper offense teams are going to move on to. Do with tera no longer at their disposal, giving how they were one of the main culprits for its ban, they can be more manageable, but still a solid structure for those teams.


:samurott-hisui:
This one is pretty much the same as Glimmora, Gholdengo + Hazards go together like peanut butter and jelly. Hsam can also potentially 1v1 opposing Gholdengo, as it wouldn't wanna switch into a Ceaseless Edge.

:ribombee:
Pretty much the same as what I've discuss with Glimmora and Hisuian Samurott, but this one is for Webs Hyper Offense teams. The potentially high amount of Knock offs, including from the likes of Kingambit, can also be a solid benefit to it as well.


Drops:

:skeledirge:
Being knowed as what we liked to call a 'Tera Hog', it makes sense why Skeledirge is falling off in this meta. The introuction of Dragapult, Kingambit and Gholdengo are anything but kind to it as well. It does however still have its niche use cases, as its good bulk and typing could come up in some scenarios, as it can still handle the likes of Volcarona and some variants of Iron Valiant. It is also a solid answer to Zamazenta and Melmetal, which can be nice to have a backup for.

:garganacl:
Much like Skeledirge, Garganacl also heavily relied on Terastalization ro make up for its short comings in its mediocre typing. And out of the two, Garganacl likely has the tougher time of them, as it is exploitable by the new additions in Kingambit, Melmetal and Zamazenta. It does have a positive matchup into Dragapult, so it does have its applications, and Salt Cure is still a move that can't be ignored.

:corviknight:
Corviknight in itself isnt terrible, sure it may be passive, but it is still useful for its great typing and ability to defog. Oh wait, Gholdengo is back in the tier? Ok, nvm, Corviknight is now a terrible defogger, as it simply gets blanked entirely by Gholdengo. At best, it's simply going to pivot into a mon that can handle Gholdengo. And is that wasn't enough, the likes of Moltres and Magnezone are likely to see an upsurge, 2 of which Corviknight matches up poorly against. It is still decent in some scenarios, but it will most likely not provide much value in this new environment.

:iron crown:
Iron Crown was previously one of the best mons in the tier, its good bulk, decent typing, and movepool allowed it to function as either an Assault Vest pivot, or even as wincondition. So why is it dropping? Simple, the return of Kingambit, who just beats it 1v1. Its standard Assault Vest is simply not going to work anymore, unless it gets pursuitted to death. However, it does have Focus Blast, meaning that Kingambit cant just switch in without any worries, but you will still have to be careful when playing against it.

:slowking-galar:
Much like Iron Crown, Glowking is terrified at the prospect of facing Kingambit, even if it can punish it on the switch with Flamethower. At most, its going to just pivot around it with Chilly Reception every time it swithes in, and very unlikely will it get to fire off a Future Sight. Sure it did had its pursuitters like Mega Ttar and Weavile, but 1, tera was allowed meaning that it was able to escape in a pinch, and 2, they werent seen as common. Kingambit is very likely to see a ton of play to handle teams loading on Gholdengo and/or Dragapult.

:tyranitar-mega:
When Kingambit was previously in Nd Ou, Mega Ttar was almost nowhere to be seen, as it was pretty outclassed as a Pursuitter. And well... Kingambit has returned to ND OU, as well as Zamazenta and Gholdengo, of which it doesn't do so hot against. However, make no mistake, Mega Ttar is still an excellent pokemon, as its got a much great bulk, better speed, and better offensive typing. It also gained Knock Off after the 2nd DLC, something it previously didnt had when Kingambit was around, so it has justification to be used. It also matches up greatly into Dragapult, as it can sponge a hit with ease, and then pursuit it. And of course, it's Sand Stream ability can always have use, either on a dedicated Sand team, or on Balance structures.

:Banette-mega:
Ok, I'm honestly surprised how this thing is still having the OU label for THIS long. Mega Banette has had a wild history in the ND OU metagame. From gimmick, to being actually useful, to now barely having a niche. However this might perhaps be its time to drop to ND UU, as Dragapult, Kingambit, and Gholdengo have all been reintroduced, and all 3 absolutrly destroy Mega Banette with ease. Sure, it could Destiny Bond and take it out, maybe, but at that point your better off usong a better mon to handle the threat. Trouble with Dragapult?, use Kingambit. Kingambit is your issue?, use Zamazenta or Great Tusk. There isn't much of a reasoning to use Mega Banette anymore, plain and simple.

Anyways, these are my predictions, and I would like here some of yours.
 
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man....on one hand, trick room teams like tera being gone so turns dont get wasted as easily by opposing tera flipping matchups...

but on the other hand, :kingambit: and :melmetal: being back makes setting trick room an absolute nightmare...
We'll have to see how everything shakes out.

:Camerupt-Mega:
Big camel stonks are absolutely through the roof right now to hit all the new steels + physically defensive checks to melmetal, gambit, and zpult sets. The trick room setter situation is pretty dire though.
:Porygon2:
this is the only one not getting obliterated by kingambit, and its knock off removing eviolite makes it useless later on.
:Sinistcha:
This teapot with ghostiumz sets was a beast on TR teams since most relevant dark types (tinglu, ttar, hsamu) and normal types (exactly mega lopunny) got mauled by matcha gotcha but gambit absolutely cleans its clock.

I'm not a stakataka believer but its the only guy who can reasonably set trick room and threaten gambit via body press, so it might rise up.

If any trick room enjoyers read this would love to hear your thoughts on the new meta.
 
i was building a zard y sun team and I noticed that there are only 2 proto mons left that are actually good the rest are pretty ass. A lot of the reason mons like walking wake were banned was because of their strength in combination with mega zard y. I thought why not ban Mega Charzard Y (absolute menace anyway) and unban some of the proto mons after the tera ban something like Roaring Moon won't be as threatening a sweeper for non sun teams. this would make sun so much more than just mega charzard y + raging bolt and maybe a venusaor if you're feeling a bit crazy. i think that mega charzard y would make a good suspect test following the tera ban. interested to see what other people think of this take.
Zard Y has base 100 speed, 4x weak to stealth rocks and can’t hold an item. I guess it’s still very good into slower teams but it needs a lot of hazard removal support to be at its best.
 
Tiering Shakeup

I've been playing a lot of games the past 3 days and wanted to share some initial thoughts on how things might pan out for mons already in the meta with the removal of Tera and introduction of 8 previously banned mons. This is not a VR post, and I might get kind of in the weeds with how heavily I'll be trying to analyze a brand new meta so don't take it as gospel truth or anything. This post is not for the new mons.

The Winners:

:sm/volcarona:

Is this a controversial take? I haven't really seen anyone talking about it. Sure, Volcarona is often nicknamed the "matchup moth" so it might be a hard sell to say that this mon is actually better after the removal of Tera, but hear me out on this. As someone who almost never used Volcarona throughout SV I find that what I appreciate most about it in the current meta is all of your defensive answers being a known quantity. Volc has pretty great coverage to pick from even without tera blast, and I much prefer knowing when to go for my sweep over being stopped by random Tera types or having to deal with everything turning into a dragon. It's true that most defensive answers to Volc during Tera meta couldn't feel confident in checking Volc without knowing what Tera type it was, but that's putting the initiative in your opponent's hands and hoping they blunder into a loss by switching to the wrong mon. I'll take the current meta for Volc any day. Not to mention, Ttar is suddenly one of the most popular spdef walls again (certified pult hater here) and gets absolutely farmed by bug buzz.

Bulky Volcarona is also a legit mon again which is cool. With Tera around I think the only bulky Volc worth using was Tera grass giga drain. Right now, base typing Volc can be a massive nuisance for several mons and I'm anticipating will be a great pick for both stall and balance. Mystical fire sets are one of the best checks to Gholdengo in the game, and you can also threaten flame body on Kingambit, Melmetal, Mega Mawile, Zamazenta, Kartana, and a number of other mons just for clicking an attack.

***

:sm/moltres:

TLDR Moltres good. It does a lot of the same stuff bulky Volcarona does but trades sweeping potential for quite a bit more bulk and being a viable defogger/u-turn clicker. If you don't know why Moltres is good already, I think you'll figure it out pretty quickly in the next few weeks.

***

:sm/samurott-hisui:

Samurott-H is so very good right now as it feels like the meta has aligned to help it in every way possible. Three of the most common Tera types (water/dragon and fairy) that happened to resist Samurott's STAB combination? Gone, reduced to atoms. Water/Dark typing resists both Gholdengo and Kingambit's STABs and also Pult's very spammable shadow ball + flamethrower combo. It outspeeds Gholdengo by literally 1 base speed point, kills Kingambit with sacred sword, sucker punch checks Pult, sets its own hazards, encores defoggers or opposing hazard setters because why tf not, clicks SD and drops a fat Z move. Genuinely, what more can you ask from one mon? It'd probably clean your room and do your dishes while it's at it if you asked nicely enough.

***

:sm/Charizard-mega-y:

Someone on Twitter said this is the Jesus H. Christ of NatDex OU and I'm a believer. Zardy has always been a button-clicking machine, and that's true now more than ever. No more Tera water/dragon, no more Tera on Heatran, able to kill Ttar (again, one of the more common spdef mons currently). Other things I noted; scarf Shifu is kinda in the bin now which Zardy appreciates, Raging Bolt feels as good as ever so the classic sun structure is still intact, Great Tusk is definitely getting more usage with Gambit and Ghold around and is already part of most Zardy teams. Consider that my extremely simplified write up on Tusk because it literally is just those two being in the meta that makes it better. Side note, ever noticed that it's called "Great Tusk" instead of "Great Tusks"? I just did while writing this, and I'm scratching my head wondering why. Is one of the tusks great and the other is just decent? Inquiring minds want to know.

***

:sm/tyranitar-mega: :sm/tyranitar: :assault vest:

Do I really have to explain this? Just make sure you're bringing some coverage like fire punch/eq/superpower to hit Kingambit or you're wasting a lot of potential. Ice beam seems legit on Mega Ttar too if you want to hit Tusk and the rest of the ground types. I anticipate Mega Ttar dropping stealth rocks for a 4th coverage move more often.

***

:sm/iron-valiant:

Two main improvements for this mon; SD is now by far the better of the two booster energy sets in my opinion. It's kind of like Volc in that you should have a better idea of when to go for your sweep without Tera around. SD is better at breaking Gholdengo than CM, and SD Val really appreciates Dnite losing viability. I also think specs is a bit better now although tempered by Gholdengo's presence. Koko is more or less unbothered by the currrent meta changes, and it's good to at least be able to lock into a safe attack for the mon in front of you without worrying about it swapping types and killing your wallbreaker. Iron Crown lost some viability with the Tera ban and Kingambit's reintroduction (yall are gonna realize at some point crown is still good tho) and that's definitely appreciated by specs Val.

***

:sm/ribombee:

I wasn't sure if this was even worth writing about. Yes, ok it's still stupid and gimmicky. At least it's not bad, stupid, and gimmicky. Webs are a somewhat viable matchup fish now. They were god awful before Tera ban, but big man Gholdengo is carrying the whole archetype on his back right now. Remains to be seen if this will persist in a few months' time.
 
If any trick room enjoyers read this would love to hear your thoughts on the new meta.
I got you covered waffle. You have some great points I want to address as best I can.

First of all, :Kingambit: is very threatening to Trick Room which I am glad you pointed out. However, on the flip side, Kingambit is also great ON Trick Room teams since it has the coverage to destroy a ton of Pokemon, including opposing Kingambit with Low Kick. Plus, with Sucker Punch, it's able to threaten things outside Trick Room which is very crucial for the team to succeed if you don't get your twisted dimensions up. Also gonna point out :Mawile-Mega: as a great Pokemon under trick room that can deal with Kingambit nicely.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 183-216 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 159-188 (58.8 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And this next calc is admittedly kind of gimmicky but the one below is less so.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 528-624 (154.8 - 182.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 475-559 (117.8 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Anyway, onto the subject of viable Trick Room setters. :Stakataka: is not a gimmick in my opinion, not anymore than trick room in general. When paired with :Porygon2: who is epic btw you can get Trick Room up a couple times. Also with some luck, Focus Sash :Hatterene: can avoid an Iron Head Flinch and set room and either die to Sucker Punch or Misty Explosion for momentum. :Cresselia: is something that is so absurdly bulky that even max power Kingambit barely OHKOs it back. Not ideal since it is obviously a psychic type but worth pointing out.

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 380-450 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

So yes, Trick Room doesn't like Kingambit but if you can wear down the new King of Nat Dex OU then you can definitely make Trick Room work. And keep in mind, Kingambit is also tasked with taking on a lot of attackers which can overwhelm it. And if nothing else, Magnezone on Trick Room can both trap it and still function with min speed and powerful wall breaking hits.

Here is a recent trick room game that slapped. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2248070891
 
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Man, it sure feels good, doesnt it?
View attachment 689876

Drops:


:garganacl:
Much like Skeledirge, Garganacl also heavily relied on Terastalization ro make up for its short comings in its mediocre typing. And out of the two, Garganacl likely has the tougher time of them, as it is exploitable by the new additions in Kingambit, Melmetal and Zamazenta. It does have a positive matchup into Dragapult, so it does have its applications, and Salt Cure is still a move that can't be ignored.



Anyways, these are my predictions, and I would like here some of yours.
Melmetal and Kingambit don't switch into Garganacl, and would hate trading blows due to Salt Cure chip into steel types (Garganacl is 1 point faster than Mel too)
 
Cookery has happened, so I js wanna post a couple of sets I've found to do their job quite right

Iron Hands:iron-hands: @ Clear Amulet :clear-amulet: / Lum Berry :lum-berry:
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Supercell Slam / Thunder Punch / Wild Charge
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
Tbh ppl said IH would be back with Tera ban but no one tried it... until now! this bruh is good with Mola wishsupport, and is mostly a Poké deleter. Now you can also Get a few free SD on Koko screens ykno
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quark Drive Iron Hands through Reflect: 93-111 (18.1 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Clear amulet obv lets you fugg Lando on switch in, but Lum berry lets it get a free Kill on alo, and get past Wow pult like it was nuff. it eats Melme, gambit, eleki, and can live some hits from Dengo, too.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Iron Hands: 181-214 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 4 Atk Iron Hands Supercell Slam vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gholdengo: 300-354 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
so yea, definetely try it out.

the other one being
Volcarona:volcarona: @ Heavy-Duty Boots :heavy-duty-boots:
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
- U-turn / Will-o-wisp
- Defog
- Roost
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower

why tf not? you dont die to KokoEleki unlike moltres, you hit harder, and you get approx the same job done. Fire bmast forthesteels
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 220-261 (58.9 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yea u good to go


Gallade-Mega:gallade-mega: @ Galladite
Ability: Justified (Inner Focus)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel / Knock Off / Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt / Encore / Will-o-wisp / Taunt / Stone Edge
Good Ol Gallade Mega does like eating Glisc and Lando and Garch live, + Fast CC that's Bulkier and stronger than Mlop. Zen headbutt is for Pex and Mvenu, Encore for gambit and other free SDs, and will-o is a nice surprise for opposing, say, Zamazenta, Gambit, Tusk, Lando n the gang. I just Love that you can run a shitlot of things with it and none of it is ever expected. Yes Gallade is my Fav mon ever (Not glast, it's only 3rd) and I do want to innovate with it, and it's not doing too bad so yea :D


also pls if u not willin to try out or give Ideas pls do say stuff like "I dont think it's a good Idea" and not "Glazing on a shitmon again I see"
 
Cookery has happened, so I js wanna post a couple of sets I've found to do their job quite right

Iron Hands:iron-hands: @ Clear Amulet :clear-amulet: / Lum Berry :lum-berry:
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Supercell Slam / Thunder Punch / Wild Charge
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
Tbh ppl said IH would be back with Tera ban but no one tried it... until now! this bruh is good with Mola wishsupport, and is mostly a Poké deleter. Now you can also Get a few free SD on Koko screens ykno
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quark Drive Iron Hands through Reflect: 93-111 (18.1 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Clear amulet obv lets you fugg Lando on switch in, but Lum berry lets it get a free Kill on alo, and get past Wow pult like it was nuff. it eats Melme, gambit, eleki, and can live some hits from Dengo, too.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Iron Hands: 181-214 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 4 Atk Iron Hands Supercell Slam vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gholdengo: 300-354 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
so yea, definetely try it out.

the other one being
Volcarona:volcarona: @ Heavy-Duty Boots :heavy-duty-boots:
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
- U-turn / Will-o-wisp
- Defog
- Roost
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower

why tf not? you dont die to KokoEleki unlike moltres, you hit harder, and you get approx the same job done. Fire bmast forthesteels
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 220-261 (58.9 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yea u good to go


Gallade-Mega:gallade-mega: @ Galladite
Ability: Justified (Inner Focus)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel / Knock Off / Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt / Encore / Will-o-wisp / Taunt
Good Ol Gallade Mega does like eating Glisc and Lando and Garch live, + Fast CC that's Bulkier and stronger than Mlop. Zen headbutt is for Pex and Mvenu, Encore for gambit and other free SDs, and will-o is a nice surprise for opposing, say, Zamazenta, Gambit, Tusk, Lando n the gang. I just Love that you can run a shitlot of things with it and none of it is ever expected. Yes Gallade is my Fav mon ever (Not glast, it's only 3rd) and I do want to innovate with it, and it's not doing too bad so yea :D


also pls if u not willin to try out or give Ideas pls do say stuff like "I dont think it's a good Idea" and not "Glazing on a shitmon again I see"
Half the appeal of this tier is running shitmons that you can't use in OU to perform some niche functions. I've been using Togekiss for example as a Zamazenta + Garchomp switch-in, pult soft check, and Heal Beller, and it has exceeded my expectations (though imo you want to run Flamethrower in this meta with all the Steels around).I'm pretty sure there are a ton of other shitmons that have a niche now with the new top tiers like Pult, gambit, and Terap offering a lot of role compression and support to help them get going (i.e. Keldeo).
 
so this is incredibly lazy of me but i've been having a good amount of success with old sample teams from certain points in the meta (early 2023, late 2023, early 2024 mostly).
specifically been tweaking and enjoying teams like these:
1732202683264.png
and testing a lot more. an example of small edits i've made are 4a diancie over spikes and overlord gambit over defiant for the zama bro team.

it surprised me how well a lot of these seem to be working with the reintroduction of gambit/zama/ghold/pult in the meta. slowbro, buzzwole, and zama on these teams help a lot with the return of melmetal as well. lots of mega ttar balances/BO to try out now too.
mega tar + pex/alo + zama/valiant + ferro/skarm/tran seems like a nice familiar structure with the new landscape we're in. AV torn is also fairly comfy again.

one has to be wary of quite a few threats however. for instance, mega-medicham since you can't just tera out of that matchup anymore (ghold and bro help a lot here for BO/balance).
teams this old need to be updated for or played carefully around raging bolt in particular since it literally wasn't around yet for most of them.
naturally, the god of the sun mega char y is also trickier without emergency escape hatch grass heatran or dragon spdef pex. luckily, banded zama with wild charge and a specs pult draco (on chipped yard) can revenge easily, and 4-5 fallen kingambit is around to force it into a 50/50 (again, yard has to be chipped here). pult also 2hkos it while eating a singular weather ball.

would be curious to know if anyone else has experienced something similar, despite these old tera-meta teams not having access to it anymore!
 
Playing some friendlies here and there, meta is fun to explore even though there's a lot of threat saturation right now with new toy syndrome and the nature of natdex. Feels nice to play a game that feels like mons without the funny button flipping games that any under normal circumstance you would win/lose.

Char-Y seems very strong right now and I also seen some people run Specs Terapagos which feels pretty strong paired with mola. I agree with Kyo above that Volcarona feels good but Moltres is very annoying for it without something super niche like HP Rock/Water.

Some stuff I've been using screenshot.

1732204563280.png
 
imo it'd be nice to have forum tournaments freeing one (or multiple?) unban candidates so we get some more experience with them before we actually suspect them. I believe the standard 2 week of suspect laddering and some friendlies can not be enough to generate enough experience with the mon, and suspects being decided by basically theorymonning would suck. It might slow things down a bit although nothing would prevent us from suspecting something to be banned while one of these tours go on
i've always preached for this, even pinched that idea to you once :mad:
 
It’s kind of funny that Waterpon is kind of below people’s radars now. Somebody mentioned it earlier but it’s as if we all decided this thing doesn’t exist.

It definitely works just fine in a Tera less metagame if not improved since now Alomomola can’t turn into a dragon type. Sure Ferrothorn is very annoying for it as most sets don’t wanna slot in superpower but aside from that it’s not as if there aren’t a lot of Pokemon it can break down with repeated attacks using its no drawback water stab. Probably even fiercer under rain so have to check it out more.
 
Tiering Shakeup Part 2
Now to cover all the mons that took an L with the recent Tera ban. Standard disclaimers apply, I know only that I know nothing. See part 1 below.

*ramblings of the mentally unwell*

The Losers:

:sm/iron-moth:

I started my last post glazing all the fire types that are thriving in the new meta, but it's not all sunshine and brimstone for these guys. Now I'm not sure yet how bad Moth is going to be in the new meta. Certainly not unranked from the VR bad I don't think. I took the time to check through the NDPL V replay thread and found that every single Iron Moth that revealed Tera throughout the tour was using Tera ground. And that's not coverage you can replace with it being based on tera blast and Moth having no access to hp ground. The coverage is just not going to be the same. I anticipate a pretty significant decline in usage for this mon.

***

:sm/iron-crown:

Crown is still good, don't get me wrong. It would be negligent though to ignore pursuit Kingambit and Ttar running all around the tier right now. My expectation is that AV will fall off in usage a bit. Booster energy sets will need to run stored power/focus blast/CM/iron defense. CM 3 attacks seems like a bad idea now that you can't turn into a flying type or avoid the KO from Kingambit's sucker punch. Also, booster energy is obviously going to struggle breaking through Gholdengo without a lot of prior chip damage or screens support.

***

:sm/slowking-galar:

Another pursuit meta victim. Glowking isn't completely out of a job, it's just going to be clicking chilly reception way more than spreading status. Flamethrower is probably mandatory on all Glowking at this point. Due to losing Tera dragon, it's also not great at dealing with Zardy anymore besides disrupting weather when Zardy isn't on the field.

***

:sm/corviknight:

The good news for Corv is you can get some decent value out of body press checking Kingambit and Ttar. The bad news is pretty much everything else. The poor bird is going to be harassed until the end of time by taunt Lando-T and Gholdengo. Definitely one of the worse hazard controls in the tier at this point. The best shot it has as a defogger is pairing Corv with other hazard removal that can cover its weak points. At least you can still click u-turn? Idk.

***

:sm/kyurem:

Kyurem, like Iron Crown, will almost certainly be a good mon still. It's also, unfortunately, far more predictable. No more Tera ground DD sets for this guy. 90% of the time you can probably assume special Kyurem and the other 10% trying to PP stall or DD with only scale shot and icicle spear are likely the least of your worries. Should be noted that special Kyurem also really liked the Tera meta since there was no single Tera type that could defensively resist freeze dry + epower. No longer considering this mon in the ban conversation whatsoever, but it'll be a solid B or B+ tier mon I think.

***

:sm/shedinja:

This guy just got unbanned and the current meta couldn't be more hostile. We'll check in with him in a few months, yea?
 
:sv/gholdengo:
I dunno about the rest of y'all, but I really didn't enjoy playing against Gholdilocks very much when Tera was around (though Balloon on Webs was incredibly fun with Annihilape). At the start of the gen when everyone and their mom got access to Spikes, it was pretty insane how valuable Ghold became. Mr. Johnny Dengo, having returned without the ability to click defensive Tera behind a sub with defensive investment nor Tera Steel with his signature coin toss, definitely doesn't feel nearly as bad to play against. I can still remember Choice Specs/Scarf/Nasty Plot Tera Steel Make It Rain pressuring Kingambit of all things.

Kingambit and Pult, conversely, are now able to freely pressure it incredibly well, and it can do nothing but wait for death in the face of Mega Charizard Y, Lopunny, etc., whereas before it had a fighting chance by subverting the type matchup. I'm super happy to have a splashable mon that is better Aegislash/worse Magearna (in part), without an overbearing speed tier that would make it way too easy to run. While the ability is still insane, a lack of ability to simply muscle past its checks is to its benefit for staying in NDOU.

In conclusion: I'm pleasantly surprised with the return of Cheeseman Supreme. Checks Lele/Medi which is helpful in this tier post-Tera. Its EVs are Gen 7/8 Tapu Fini levels of customizable which is always fire for building. Finally, while Ghost/Steel/Fighting coverage is basically all you can ask for, I'm glad its movepool is so small. It's really cool that a mon with a specific niche is still so powerful.
 
Been playing more on ladder now and it feels like we have a fresh metagame again. So many different threats and instead of being less diverse it feels more diverse than ever. I just faced down a Sand Team with Dragazolt, not Pult, Zolt and it was very fun to see. Weather wars are totally a thing now with Charizard, Tyranitar and Pelipper gunning down each other's throats with their own abusers. Have yet to see anyone try snow teams which don't really have the same level of abusers as the other weather trios. Maybe screens HO with Alolan Ninetales? But Kyurem is no Baxcalibur, which we are doing fine without.

We really lucked out banning Tera. You don't realize what you have until it's gone.

Also created the most evil name for Barraskewda. “I ate Nemo’s Mom.”
 
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Have yet to see anyone try snow teams which don't really have the same level of abusers as the other weather trios. Maybe screens HO with Alolan Ninetales? But Kyurem is no Baxcalibur, which we are doing fine without.
And very likely you'll stay waiting, as Snow is simply nonexistent in the competetive scene. Atales is an even worse setter now that hazard are being stacked everywhere by Gholdengo, of which also destroys Atales. There is also just no good Slush Rush mon, and Kyurem is good, but it cannot carry an archetype that can barely function to begin with.
 
Pretty new to NatDex so far, and i've been loving the metagame. So many options to build with, and lots of viables mons within reason. It's so peak. Glazing aside...How do you guys answer Zard-Y? Every single team i've tried to make work was competent enough in most aspect, with this being the main consistent outlier
Offensive teams can get by with offensive pressure + rocks + short-term checks that can take 2-3 hits. Some short-term checks include Garchomp, Dragapult (this mon takes like 60 from Weather Ball though), and Raging Bolt, which can buy you some time.

If you're looking for something more sturdy, you could consider Mega Tyranitar, which is very strong right now. You could also try Dragonite but that mon has gotten worse without Tera. Just try to win the damage race.

If you are running balance, I would highly recommend Spdef Moltres or Toxapex. Something like Alo + Bolt/Pult/Mtar is also decent, keeping your short-term checks healthy. You could also try Mtias or Mtios as long-term counters, though people are generally not too high on those mons right now. Thebestever's Reflect Mtios innovation is weirdly decent though, and makes me believe they might be somewhat underrated. Aside from that, there really isn't much beyond getting rocks up and limiting its opportunities.
What is TheBestee's Reflect M-Latios set? Where do I find the team? That sounds super heat

EDIT: team link is here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-bazaar.3710928/page-13#post-10347867
 
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Thebestever's Reflect Mtios innovation is weirdly decent though, and makes me believe they might be somewhat underrated. Aside from that, there really isn't much beyond getting rocks up and limiting its opportunities.
What is TheBestee's Reflect M-Latios set? Where do I find the team? That sounds super heat
 
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