In OU I'd agree, but here there are a couple of more options to check bax with Tapu FIni, Mega Scizor, bunch of common scarfers like Lele, etc. so I do think there is some merit to retesting it. Its likely still overwhelming, but I think the average team here may have more counterplay to it than OU.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
Which mons do you guys think will be some of the biggest losers of Tera being banned?
Aside from Shedinja, Terapagos, Regieleki, and Espathra when the council finally unbans it, I'd name Dragonite, Garganacl, Iron Moth, Volcarona, and Serperior as among the biggest losers due to 3 of those mons commonly using Tera Blast for coverage, Garganacl due to its poor base typing, and Dragonite due it no longer having access to STAB Extreme Speed.
Aside from Shedinja, Terapagos, Regieleki, and Espathra when the council finally unbans it, I'd name Dragonite, Garganacl, Iron Moth, Volcarona, and Serperior as among the biggest losers due to 3 of those mons commonly using Tera Blast for coverage, Garganacl due to its poor base typing, and Dragonite due it no longer having access to STAB Extreme Speed.
Just a few thoughts after playing for a bit today in the new metagame
This feels so fucking good. It's still early of course so things are subject to change, but it's so comfortable to play with, as the great bulk, power and versatility lets it do so much and act as a soft check to a ton of stuff. Obviously don't overrely on it, have back up where needed, but it's such a good progress maker. I've already taken a liking to ToxTect sets ala SwSh era Melm, I think AV and other variants are also cool. It's so nice to have another good steel type.
Not gonna lie this feels like it has some serious high potential as far as viability goes. Tera Shell is a truly cracked ability and giving it the power to potentially check a ton of shit at full health is massive, and I've both played and seen games of it clowning on offensive teams. I also think it has potential as a spinner in the tier, and who knows what else. But it does feel pretty unique as far as the drops go.
Doesn't feel too crazy. So far anyways. Without Tera, the many fighting types in the tier actually feel reliable into it and it has to work quite hard to get to a sweeping spot. Still does feel very good, and having another good Pursuit user is great for building in a tier with Lele and Iron Crown, and I think its progress making abilities will be a positive force going forwards based on what I have seen so far.
This definitely has to be played more mindfully in this new era of no Tera, but I don't believe it's bad now. Volc check, Zap check, TornT check, non steel stab Heatran check, good progress maker, still punishes various HO leads well. Can't auto pilot and no brain with it, but I think it still has a fair spot in the tier. Especially as a Stealth Rocker.
This feels so fucking good. It's still early of course so things are subject to change, but it's so comfortable to play with, as the great bulk, power and versatility lets it do so much and act as a soft check to a ton of stuff. Obviously don't overrely on it, have back up where needed, but it's such a good progress maker. I've already taken a liking to ToxTect sets ala SwSh era Melm, I think AV and other variants are also cool. It's so nice to have another good steel type.
Not gonna lie this feels like it has some serious high potential as far as viability goes. Tera Shell is a truly cracked ability and giving it the power to potentially check a ton of shit at full health is massive, and I've both played and seen games of it clowning on offensive teams. I also think it has potential as a spinner in the tier, and who knows what else. But it does feel pretty unique as far as the drops go.
Doesn't feel too crazy. So far anyways. Without Tera, the many fighting types in the tier actually feel reliable into it and it has to work quite hard to get to a sweeping spot. Still does feel very good, and having another good Pursuit user is great for building in a tier with Lele and Iron Crown, and I think its progress making abilities will be a positive force going forwards based on what I have seen so far.
This definitely has to be played more mindfully in this new era of no Tera, but I don't believe it's bad now. Volc check, Zap check, TornT check, non steel stab Heatran check, good progress maker, still punishes various HO leads well. Can't auto pilot and no brain with it, but I think it still has a fair spot in the tier. Especially as a Stealth Rocker.
Garg is heading straight to ND UU, regardless of its actual viability. I think it can still have a niche since broken move + ability, checks pult/moltres/volc/zapdos.
Iron Crown... I think bro has fallen very far from its throne with Kingambit, Melmetal and Gholdengo suddenly dropping in. There's also less of a need for a 4x psychic resist as Lele can no longer tera. It's def gonna have to adapt to survive in this metagame.
Dnite definitely gets significantly less broken with the Steel trio and dog dropping, and the loss of its beloved Tera Steel. I'm not sure if it is still OU worthy.
Moth is gone. Volc gets a lot less cheap.
Was messing around with Stall and found Shedinja + Toxic Spikes Toxapex to be insanely potent right now. A lot of the offensive breakers forego boots so it trolls those HO squads heavily. Threats like CM Z Tapu Lele and Ogerpon-Wellspring are incapable of staying alive long enough to pressure a Shedinja squadron even if they are packing the coverage for it. The core itself stonewalls a massive portion of the tier such as sitting on Taunt Lando, Melmetal, Raging Bolt (Without Weather Ball), Mega Scizor, Zamazenta, etc. Anything that those two could struggle with (say Gholdengo or Kartana) can be patched up with stuff like Iron Defense Corviknight and whatever random techs for Ghold &/or Clodsire. Strongly Recommend running a Poison type like Iron Moth or Glowking to have a stopgap against these types of teams.
Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic
- Hex
Obviously Shedinja itself is kinda a fishmon due to Mr Gambit being everywhere with its Pursuit trapping sets, also the fact that literally everything can just tech coverage for it lol. Dual Status is generally a strong set for it though since it lets you punish Gambit and Mega Tyranitar for switching in thanks to Will-O-Wisp, thereby allowing Blissey to be less pressured by the opposition. Toxic I like against the utility fellas like Moltres (still pretty decent in this metagame I think). Hex is a nice contactless move that hits reletively hard against SD Gliscor, and Flamethrowerless Glowking and synergizes amazingly with T-Spikes Toxapex.
Toxapex @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 48 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Knock Off
- Haze
- Recover
Couldn't really be bothered to tech specific EVs for the stall team I made but Knock Off is a pretty vital move for this team to overwhelm the few Boots users that do exist in the tier like Glowking and Alomomola. Pretty fun to lead with since I don't think Lando/Gliscor KOs you from full and you get to Knock for free essentially. Electrics like Koko or PexKillers such as Kyurem just get shutdown by Shedinja.
Team I used it with:
https://pokepast.es/3a3fbf32dc2fbac4
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246583204-jpipzmrx0wvud13g4tmpikpf319vpetpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246595119-r8dn0sqmdlnvbagpcrfe5m59ra4o0vfpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246597216-8czccnuhdqpy7urgqoyznr3kb4mkcgtpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246609929-4n6i5qzb6cp3axr6ff3iv2opigdt526pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246612249-utvl19lvyc0q0dw6tc9sr3gubjzkq16pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246613970-htfc5ebek2qexo880zirv5taeyg0bxqpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246617415-s4od3ev2bodz61yrp6zoq2g32p1ektepw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246619632-fmrbaa7rk5bovw2yc1q82hcfx6trqlipw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2246621490-sx9zb8o52pxjxzi50x6rlqcjubbsne4pw
I'm back in 1700s!!!!
Idk what I was smoking but this does not check Gholdengo at all...holy mid...
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 345-406 (97.4 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Definitely pleased at this metagame getting a nice reset while also keeping some stuff banned. Personally I could have lived without Dragapult or Zamzenta but I have found them to be a lot more manageable than I expected.
Kingambit/Dragapult/Zamazenta is back in business baby. These three perfectly answer one another almost seamlessly and unlike in the tera metagame where they could break each other stupidly they have to actually work around each others strengths. Dragapult is probably the best of them since it can Wisp the Kingambit or even just obliterate it with fire coverage, Zamazenta can crunch Dragapult especially when using Choice Band and Kingambit can toxic or knock the Zamazenta to weaken it for its teammates (most fringe obviously but still doable.)
Definitely pleased so far. If I had to remove one I would say maybe Zamazenta but I have to play more to be certain.
Kingambit/Dragapult/Zamazenta is back in business baby. These three perfectly answer one another almost seamlessly and unlike in the tera metagame where they could break each other stupidly they have to actually work around each others strengths. Dragapult is probably the best of them since it can Wisp the Kingambit or even just obliterate it with fire coverage, Zamazenta can crunch Dragapult especially when using Choice Band and Kingambit can toxic or knock the Zamazenta to weaken it for its teammates (most fringe obviously but still doable.)
Definitely pleased so far. If I had to remove one I would say maybe Zamazenta but I have to play more to be certain.
Zamazenta atm feels like a bit of an MU fish. Its either a god or a bit useless with its classic ID + BP set. Lack of tera does hurt a bit in answering it imo (no more Tera Ghosters or Tera Fairy Garganacl), but Helmet Slowbro, Zapdos, Dragapult, Ghold, etc. all do very well against it. That said, a key issue is that most of these Pokemon can be dispatched by Kingambit's Pursuit, so I do feel that long-term, this mon becomes a bit difficult to answer. Future Sight support from your own Slowbro can make CB zama tricky to switch into and I've seen a few weird techs to help Zama attempt to bypass its usual counterplay like Howl + Z-Wild Charge. I'm interested in seeing whether this Pokemon remains managable or not.
I feel like Rbolt is more broken with Tera gone. No Tera to get yourself out of Tclap, and ground types get worn down and KO'd by Dragon STABs. Seriously this thing goobs ghold wit its bulk, Gambit with running Z or Booster so knock is 65BP, takes some coverage EQs too so like let's wait a week and pls take action on it guys
I haven't had a single problem with Bolt since the Tera ban. It's still good, but now it cannot just cheese ground types (and by extension, fairies like Lele) with Tera. Z sets still have to be timed well and with Landorus-T, Garchomp, Gliscor and even Ting-Lu around, it's much less of an issue. Bolt also has always been a mon that gets drawn in easily so it gets chipped often, and so between hazards and its more exploitable ground and fairy weaknesses now, I think it's much more comfortable to handle. Also Ferrothorn now completely ruins its day.
Where is Ogerpon-H ?
Without Tera, he no longer gains a free +1 Att nor a free 50% boost on Ivy Cudgel
Without Tera, he no longer gains a free +1 Att nor a free 50% boost on Ivy Cudgel
even without tera it's still pretty absurd, between stabs + playrough it's hitting the entire tier except for moltres which can also be easily accounted for via rock tomb
Also, I can't tell if its just me but washtom has been feeling pretty good lately, it might just be because not a lot of people are running wellspring right now in lieu of recently unbanned threats but it seems like it's better, especially with melm and gambit running around
Hello! Like all of you, i've been very hyped about the news, and it's one of my favorite things when a meta drastically changes like this, because it makes room for new techs and innovation.We all know of the big 3 that got freed, but i think there are other mons that hugely benefit from the changes.
My man gets a coverage move from all the types.Gets bolt beam, fire beam, bolt fire, whatever you want.On top of being able to spin hazzards away.So now you get a spinner that can actually destroy ferro, gliscor and lando (Better than tusk imo). It also has tera shell, which is a multiscale, and has a 120bp stab move in Tera Starstorm.Could also see this thing do sum crazy stuff with calm mind stored power sets.
Gambit? More like 2hit KO by Body Press.With tera gone, none of those pesky steel types can change out of their steel typing, therefore mangezone is back in the game.I'd say being able to trap and kill gambit is huge, only downside is that gambit can also hurt zone big time with sucker punches.Kartana, Scizor, Iron Crown, and the returning Melmetal, this meta has a lot of steel types running around, so Magnezone might just become the goat it used to be.
My man gets a coverage move from all the types.Gets bolt beam, fire beam, bolt fire, whatever you want.On top of being able to spin hazzards away.So now you get a spinner that can actually destroy ferro, gliscor and lando (Better than tusk imo). It also has tera shell, which is a multiscale, and has a 120bp stab move in Tera Starstorm.Could also see this thing do sum crazy stuff with calm mind stored power sets.
Gambit? More like 2hit KO by Body Press.With tera gone, none of those pesky steel types can change out of their steel typing, therefore mangezone is back in the game.I'd say being able to trap and kill gambit is huge, only downside is that gambit can also hurt zone big time with sucker punches.Kartana, Scizor, Iron Crown, and the returning Melmetal, this meta has a lot of steel types running around, so Magnezone might just become the goat it used to be.
I do agree that Magnezone might see a lot more use now with all these steels running around. And I am excited to see that. I feel like Choice Specs could be usable but ID Body Press seems like the anti Kingambit button.
That said you still can’t trap Gholdengo because of its ghost typing especially when Gholdengo naturally outspeeds you anyway. Then again, you can trap Gholdengo with good old fashioned pursuit so maybe trapping cores become potent again.
That said you still can’t trap Gholdengo because of its ghost typing especially when Gholdengo naturally outspeeds you anyway. Then again, you can trap Gholdengo with good old fashioned pursuit so maybe trapping cores become potent again.
Y'all banned Tera and this is now just GEN8 National Dex... so dumb.
I request a new metagame that allows past mons + tera + z moves
I request a new metagame that allows past mons + tera + z moves
Well sorry but enough people don't want that. They don't like setting up their Dragonite only to find out that, whoops, the enemy Kyurem just went Tera Fairy and destroyed you with Draco Meteor. I build Charizard Y and I don't have to add the otherwise useless Air Slash just so that Heatran doesn't wall me with Tera Grass.
Besides, with Kingambit, Melmetal, Gholdengo, Dragapult and Zamazenta running around it feels like we gave the metagame a deserved reset button and we are back to having consistency.
Besides, with Kingambit, Melmetal, Gholdengo, Dragapult and Zamazenta running around it feels like we gave the metagame a deserved reset button and we are back to having consistency.
So this isn't just a shitpost, I'll answer something else I saw
Hearthflame is broken regardless of whether or not Tera is legal, as many of the things that made it broken were independent from Tera. The only thing Embody Aspect did was push a mon that already over the edge even further past it.
Just because tera is banned in both metagames, it does not mean the metagames are the same.Gen 8 lacks all of the new gen 9 mons and abilities, like how are you gonna say they are the same bro
ANYWAYS... let's talk about one of the new mons released... specifically:
Terapagos-Terastal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tera Shell
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Tera Starstorm
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
This set is pretty good right now, alongside the CM Rapid Spin or Meteor Beam shenanigans people have been using on ladder. It's got a great offensive stat, almost OHKOing Mega Medicham from full, a colourful coverage letting it hit both Landorus-T (the one who sets) and Gholdengo (the one who blocks), as well as other crap like Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Gliscor, Tornadus-T etc etc - the only downside is that you can't hit Heatran, but this can definitely be made up for with Pokemon like Raging Bolt, Ogerpon-W and Landorus-T, all three of which synergise pretty well with Terapagos.
The Pokemon we have in Gen 9 we don't have in Gen 8.
Kingambit, Gholdengo, Raging Bolt, Garganacl, Archaludon, Iron Valiant, Iron Crown, Iron Moth, Iron Treads, Great Tusk, Ceruledge, Armarouge, Terapagos, Clodsire, Glimmora, Ogerpon and its forms, Hisui-Samurott, Ursaluna, Dondozo, Iron Hands, Meowscarada, Ting Lu, Skeledirge, Iron Leaves, Kleavor, Hydrapple....and many more.
Yeah, totally the same as Gen 8.
Kingambit, Gholdengo, Raging Bolt, Garganacl, Archaludon, Iron Valiant, Iron Crown, Iron Moth, Iron Treads, Great Tusk, Ceruledge, Armarouge, Terapagos, Clodsire, Glimmora, Ogerpon and its forms, Hisui-Samurott, Ursaluna, Dondozo, Iron Hands, Meowscarada, Ting Lu, Skeledirge, Iron Leaves, Kleavor, Hydrapple....and many more.
Yeah, totally the same as Gen 8.
Has anyone toyed with Z-Celebrate Ceruledge? I've been in low ladder with it (trying to ease myself back into playing ND after recent events) and it's usually a beast once it gets the omniboost up. The only issue I've ran into is Great Tusk but that's a given.
I look forward to seeing where this metagame goes in the future :)
I look forward to seeing where this metagame goes in the future :)
With the ban of tera I think Spectrier should have been at least tested. It's slower than pult who's back in the tier, mega lopunny and booster val. It also gets revenged by Kingambit. But I think the biggest thing is that it really can't beat garg, terapagos, or heatran. Garg would have to run curse to not get set up on by sub sets but it could still function as a great special wall. With pursuit from gambit, weavile, and mega ttar hanging around spectrier would almost be forced into a will-o wisp set (which tbf was it's best gen 8 set) and this makes it extremely hard for it to craft a set that can beat gambit, ttar, and pult in addition to terapagos, garg, or heatran. (especially since the latter two can't be will-oed)
We do NOT need Spectrier running around. No thank you. Even if we consider that it can be pursuit trapped and outsped by some (mind you, SOME, Pokemon that are good) and that it struggles somewhat coverage wise....Spectrier would not be a good presence for the tier.
It would just bowl over teams way too much and too easily, especially when paired with other attackers that Kingambit would be tasked with taking on. And as awesome as Mandibuzz is it shouldn't suddenly have to rise to OU just to help you deny the monster that is Spectrier (who has draining kiss anyway which heavily threatens if not destroys your opponent after a boost.)
Spectrier doesn’t add anything positive to the metagame. It’s just another insanely powerful attacker that just makes defensive teams very hard to build (something we have taken steps to correct by freeing good Pokémon after banning Tera.)
Would 100% rather play a metagame with Landorus Incarnate than one with Spectrier.
It would just bowl over teams way too much and too easily, especially when paired with other attackers that Kingambit would be tasked with taking on. And as awesome as Mandibuzz is it shouldn't suddenly have to rise to OU just to help you deny the monster that is Spectrier (who has draining kiss anyway which heavily threatens if not destroys your opponent after a boost.)
Spectrier doesn’t add anything positive to the metagame. It’s just another insanely powerful attacker that just makes defensive teams very hard to build (something we have taken steps to correct by freeing good Pokémon after banning Tera.)
Would 100% rather play a metagame with Landorus Incarnate than one with Spectrier.
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