I really really want to encourage everyone to think twice before unbanning dengo as defog restriction ends up shaping the entire meta around it creating an unhealthy dynamic
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
To clarify I'm down for basically everything LBN said, but the reason I didn't include some stuff is I think it's easier to try stuff like Lugia/Giratina *inside* of a stable meta, and I think Zamazenta is possibly more broken without Tera due to the nature of how type-reliant its checking is, though I know many will disagree on that.
Dragapult idk, Kingambit will be here to check it but with Gen 8 ND under our belt I struggle to see it not doing the same shit.
Not against those unbans, just my reasoning as to why I trimmed the list a little.
Dragapult idk, Kingambit will be here to check it but with Gen 8 ND under our belt I struggle to see it not doing the same shit.
Not against those unbans, just my reasoning as to why I trimmed the list a little.
I... am genuinely impressed by this community. I seriously, seriously thought pro-ban had lost from the start. Just wow.
Anyway, moving forward:
I believe the most sensible course of action would be staggered batches of quickdrops/quicktests/suspects.
Batch 1: The Obvious Ones
Quickdrop together
If anything in the pre-existing metagame is potentially problematic, it would be Ogerpon-Wellspring, though it really enjoyed Tera Water to muscle past non-resistant physically defensive Pokemon such as Corviknight and Zapdos. If it must be tested, I urge the council to not do so until Zamazenta is dropped, however.
Batch 2: Gambit and Friends
Quickdrop together and re-evaluate individually after each week for a few weeks
It is critical that any action on these 4 occurs together because they all act as arguably the best checks to each other (Zama < Ghosts < Gambit < Zama). I suggest they be re-evaluated after each week individually for a few weeks through internal council discussion and player surveys. Continuous re-evaluation is also necessary in case one of them ends on the chopping board, which may impact the healthiness of another. The available courses of action should be nothing/suspect, as I doubt any of these mons will be so broken as to warrant a QB. If something ends up being suspected, we delay the next batch of drops. For what it’s worth, I feel like Pult is most likely to be broken here while also contributing the least (though of course it’s still great speed control and an emergency check to a lot of things).
Hopefully, they provide some much needed role compression and new options for BO and Balance.
Batch 3: New Toys for Offense
Quicktest/Suspect together? Not too sure, but suspecting one by one seems unnecessary here
In order of potential brokenness:
1. Of these, I feel like Espathra would be by far the least viable. I understand some people have their misgivings about this mon, but c’mon it basically cannot touch steels like Gambit, Melmetal, Crown, and Ferrothorn. It doesn’t really add anything of value, but you could say this of a lot of cheese currently in the tier, so it deserves a chance on principle. I feel like this is almost certainly ok, and also literally bad lmao.
2. Roaring Moon was one of the more tera reliant banned threats, and without being able to e.g. tera fly, it loses considerable defensive and offensive potential. For example, it’s gonna get u-turned on by phys def lando, and even +1 booster acro is never OHKOing Dauntless Zamazenta which OHKOs back. Kingambit and Melmetal being back would also force EQ or Brick Break, which discourages Taunt/Acro, causing some 4MSS. And Z-moves have never been more telegraphed on a mon, as it’s always Booster otherwise. I feel like this is likely to be ok.
3. I know a lot of you hated Baxcalibur, so I’ll yap a lot on this mon, hear me out - so much has changed from when it was first banned. I think people underestimate how much Bax liked Tera, using it to:
a. Gain set-up opportunities in spite of its poor initial typing
b. Prevent revenge killing attempts from mons such as Scarf Urshifu or Lele, and potentially achieve that critical second free turn, through defensive teras such as Fairy/Poison/Steel/Ghost
c. To augment its coverage, either with Tera Ground, or Tera Fire Tera Blast to burn through MScizor, Ferrothorn and Corviknight while now resisting Fairy and Steel moves
Furthermore, options that were not available at the time of its initial ban such as Kingambit, Archaludon and Melmetal are now available. Balloon is also a viable option on Gambit and especially Gholdengo, which helps. In fact, I believe HO/Offense/BO should be pretty solid against Bax, with their ability to keep rocks up and plethora of good short/medium-term options such as Zamazenta, Gambit, Ghold, Melmetal, MTar, Kartana, Booster Crown/Val that can check it now that Bax can’t flip MUs. Further, they can easily fit revenge killers such as Scarf Tapu Lele, Shifu, even the niche Kartana, or Booster Val/Boulder/Crown, that, significantly, Bax can no longer Tera out of.
Balance might be a bit more rough into it, but honestly, I think Teraless Bax is worse into balance than Teraless Kyurem. Hazard stacking balances can limit non-boots Bax, Mega Scizor is a true long-term counter without fearing Tera Ground or Fire, Ferrothorn is a good switch-in and hits it hard with Gyro, IDPress Corv/Skarm should be solid into it, plus balances still naturally fit the aforementioned Gambit, Ghold and Melmetal as progress makers, and Zamazenta as speed control. Pex and Alo can live any non-z hit at +1 (and maybe +2, not sure off the top of my head) and Toxic or Flip to a revenge killer in case of the latter. Finally, Tapu Fini and Primarina, which counter Baxcalibur now that it can’t turn into a Poison or Steel, may become more viable options in this new metagame too. And as always, Dondozo ruins Bax’s day on stall teams.
The most offensively dangerous set would be SD Scale Shot variants, but they don’t really change counterplay and require two free turns. I could also see Dragonium, Icium or Groundium being potentially problematic, but they take the Z-Slot, are prediction reliant, prevent boots or dice, don’t do anything about being revenge killed, and Z-Moves generally achieve the same thing for most other set-up sweepers such as Dnite.
As for VeilTales, those teams have usually turned out to be very exploitable, predictable, and generally bad after a little bit of time - so I urge you to give it time before calling it broken. Not only that, consider DD Kyurem for the past few months; Veil is not at all the reason it was complained about. Overall, I think Bax is probably ok.
4. Sneasler has the most potential to be broken. However, it was also quite tera reliant, relying on Tera Flying/Dark/Ghost to remove its common weaknesses while boosting its coverage to achieve critical thresholds. Without tera, something like Lando or Gholdengo (I believe defensive Gholdengo would become standard) should always be able to take a hit or at least limit it. It requires a lot of team support, so it might be fine for you to trade two mons into it because of how much must be invested into Sneasler in the first place. I feel like this might be ok.
The available courses of action should be nothing/suspect/re-ban, evaluated weekly or fortnightly.
Would greatly appreciate any engagement with this post.
Anyway, moving forward:
I believe the most sensible course of action would be staggered batches of quickdrops/quicktests/suspects.
Batch 1: The Obvious Ones
Quickdrop together
If anything in the pre-existing metagame is potentially problematic, it would be Ogerpon-Wellspring, though it really enjoyed Tera Water to muscle past non-resistant physically defensive Pokemon such as Corviknight and Zapdos. If it must be tested, I urge the council to not do so until Zamazenta is dropped, however.
Batch 2: Gambit and Friends
Quickdrop together and re-evaluate individually after each week for a few weeks
It is critical that any action on these 4 occurs together because they all act as arguably the best checks to each other (Zama < Ghosts < Gambit < Zama). I suggest they be re-evaluated after each week individually for a few weeks through internal council discussion and player surveys. Continuous re-evaluation is also necessary in case one of them ends on the chopping board, which may impact the healthiness of another. The available courses of action should be nothing/suspect, as I doubt any of these mons will be so broken as to warrant a QB. If something ends up being suspected, we delay the next batch of drops. For what it’s worth, I feel like Pult is most likely to be broken here while also contributing the least (though of course it’s still great speed control and an emergency check to a lot of things).
Hopefully, they provide some much needed role compression and new options for BO and Balance.
Batch 3: New Toys for Offense
Quicktest/Suspect together? Not too sure, but suspecting one by one seems unnecessary here
In order of potential brokenness:
1. Of these, I feel like Espathra would be by far the least viable. I understand some people have their misgivings about this mon, but c’mon it basically cannot touch steels like Gambit, Melmetal, Crown, and Ferrothorn. It doesn’t really add anything of value, but you could say this of a lot of cheese currently in the tier, so it deserves a chance on principle. I feel like this is almost certainly ok, and also literally bad lmao.
2. Roaring Moon was one of the more tera reliant banned threats, and without being able to e.g. tera fly, it loses considerable defensive and offensive potential. For example, it’s gonna get u-turned on by phys def lando, and even +1 booster acro is never OHKOing Dauntless Zamazenta which OHKOs back. Kingambit and Melmetal being back would also force EQ or Brick Break, which discourages Taunt/Acro, causing some 4MSS. And Z-moves have never been more telegraphed on a mon, as it’s always Booster otherwise. I feel like this is likely to be ok.
3. I know a lot of you hated Baxcalibur, so I’ll yap a lot on this mon, hear me out - so much has changed from when it was first banned. I think people underestimate how much Bax liked Tera, using it to:
a. Gain set-up opportunities in spite of its poor initial typing
b. Prevent revenge killing attempts from mons such as Scarf Urshifu or Lele, and potentially achieve that critical second free turn, through defensive teras such as Fairy/Poison/Steel/Ghost
c. To augment its coverage, either with Tera Ground, or Tera Fire Tera Blast to burn through MScizor, Ferrothorn and Corviknight while now resisting Fairy and Steel moves
Furthermore, options that were not available at the time of its initial ban such as Kingambit, Archaludon and Melmetal are now available. Balloon is also a viable option on Gambit and especially Gholdengo, which helps. In fact, I believe HO/Offense/BO should be pretty solid against Bax, with their ability to keep rocks up and plethora of good short/medium-term options such as Zamazenta, Gambit, Ghold, Melmetal, MTar, Kartana, Booster Crown/Val that can check it now that Bax can’t flip MUs. Further, they can easily fit revenge killers such as Scarf Tapu Lele, Shifu, even the niche Kartana, or Booster Val/Boulder/Crown, that, significantly, Bax can no longer Tera out of.
Balance might be a bit more rough into it, but honestly, I think Teraless Bax is worse into balance than Teraless Kyurem. Hazard stacking balances can limit non-boots Bax, Mega Scizor is a true long-term counter without fearing Tera Ground or Fire, Ferrothorn is a good switch-in and hits it hard with Gyro, IDPress Corv/Skarm should be solid into it, plus balances still naturally fit the aforementioned Gambit, Ghold and Melmetal as progress makers, and Zamazenta as speed control. Pex and Alo can live any non-z hit at +1 (and maybe +2, not sure off the top of my head) and Toxic or Flip to a revenge killer in case of the latter. Finally, Tapu Fini and Primarina, which counter Baxcalibur now that it can’t turn into a Poison or Steel, may become more viable options in this new metagame too. And as always, Dondozo ruins Bax’s day on stall teams.
The most offensively dangerous set would be SD Scale Shot variants, but they don’t really change counterplay and require two free turns. I could also see Dragonium, Icium or Groundium being potentially problematic, but they take the Z-Slot, are prediction reliant, prevent boots or dice, don’t do anything about being revenge killed, and Z-Moves generally achieve the same thing for most other set-up sweepers such as Dnite.
As for VeilTales, those teams have usually turned out to be very exploitable, predictable, and generally bad after a little bit of time - so I urge you to give it time before calling it broken. Not only that, consider DD Kyurem for the past few months; Veil is not at all the reason it was complained about. Overall, I think Bax is probably ok.
4. Sneasler has the most potential to be broken. However, it was also quite tera reliant, relying on Tera Flying/Dark/Ghost to remove its common weaknesses while boosting its coverage to achieve critical thresholds. Without tera, something like Lando or Gholdengo (I believe defensive Gholdengo would become standard) should always be able to take a hit or at least limit it. It requires a lot of team support, so it might be fine for you to trade two mons into it because of how much must be invested into Sneasler in the first place. I feel like this might be ok.
The available courses of action should be nothing/suspect/re-ban, evaluated weekly or fortnightly.
Would greatly appreciate any engagement with this post.
I think for Gholdengo in particular, a retest is better than an immediate quickdrop, especially given the entire argument behind Gholdengo dropping is "Kingambit exists". I think we need to see this in practice before just dropping it and allowing the tier to become permanently covered with Lego again, particularly given Gholdengo still has access to Z-Moves to blow past Defoggers.
Imo, Kingambit should be retested first, everything else depends on whether we want KG as a presence. I think Kingambit is fine, but we really need to not just drop every Mon at once just because we can.
Gen 10 is 1 year away, that's plenty of time to get the tier right.
Half the reason it was banned was because it could "beat the main defoggers with Tera" and that dynamic doesn't exist anymore. Mons like Tusk + Lando-T are still good, and most other hazard controllers can run gambit as a Pursuiter, and applying your own hazard pressure can still put Ghold on the backline, making it easier to fire off the Defog as Ghold will be pressured to continuously switch in. Frankly, I don't find the hazard situation right now to even be all that much better than when Ghold was here, as Defog is still subpar and a majority of the setters make it very difficult to defog as is (think Ferro, Garg, etc). Its absolutely a fair quickdrop, given it was banned by a mere 1 vote.
Just a side note but I dunno if Shed is eligible since it's also banned from Ubers. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this (I'm probably wrong lol).
Anyways not talking about winners and losers but just general wishes on unbans here now that Tera is gone.
Right off these are the easiest and most inoffensive unbans as they were all broken by Tera directly. Eleki was a meme mon last gen without coverage to bust open ground types and now it's back to meme mon status. It has Tera Blast as stronger non electric special move, which means teeechnically you could chip down recovery lacking grounds like Lando/Tusk over time but I find this gimmicky and not worth using.
Melmetal meanwhile has been sorely missed since we had to axe it for its crimes under TR with Tera steel banded sets, but now it's far less capable of such nonsense and its offensive/defensive presence will be an Arceus-send for all manner of teams but especially bulkier ones. This is the mon I think will do the most good for teambuilding if we free it.
Terapagos is one I'm rather curious about because we never saw the full extent of its potential as its special form was too busted not to use, but it has a fairly unique toolkit and even without Tera a decent enough statspread alongside a cracked ability. I've been thinking about it, but perhaps options like specs and scarf have potential as an anti-offense tool using its ability to let it soft check things (fun fact: A full health Terapagos easily lives a Mega Medicham CC and can revenge it back with Starstorm). It being a spinner with utility like Toxic and wide coverage also makes me interested in its utility possibilities.
Echoing much of what Moisture said already, but I think it's well known these four kind of worked in a check-check-check dynamic that fell apart once we had to ban Kingambit and thus slowly we had the domino effect afterwards. Also agreed that Pult is the most questionable here, with Kingambit to me feeling the least and Zama a close second. All of these mons brought useful traits to building in some way so I think they're worth considering. Zama and Kingambit especially not being able to cheese past their checks is notable, the latter in a tier dominated by fighting types as is, should be far more palatable. I'm a little iffy on Gholdengo which still had annoying effects on building through its hazard removal blocking, but it being unable to tera may make it easier to get past in that regard but I think it's the mon most worth retesting via suspect rather than a quick drop.
Without Tera I think these two have potential to be alright for the tier and may even bring some cool building qualities which might be useful for bulkier teams. Before its ban, pivot Sneasler sets were alright (not nearly as cracked as SD but you know), and were neat progress makers with Poison Touch allowing it to punish switch ins well. Roaring Moon meanwhile can't just overwhelm teams as easily and enable HO with its raw power. I think Espathra is completely ass without Tera and really wouldn't be broken at all without Tera now, but I'm not in a rush for it to be considered right now. And lastly I think Palafin is worth testing down the road as we're in a wildly different meta now and it lost a primary tool in Tera which limits the brokenness of its BU+Taunt sets while also cutting back the scale of its Banded sets (especially under rain). Its priority might even be useful as an anti-offense tool which I think builders might appreciate.
Other misc stuff like Ape also probably isn't broken anymore but again, like Espathra, not exactly in a rush to revisit it right now.
Anyways not talking about winners and losers but just general wishes on unbans here now that Tera is gone.
Right off these are the easiest and most inoffensive unbans as they were all broken by Tera directly. Eleki was a meme mon last gen without coverage to bust open ground types and now it's back to meme mon status. It has Tera Blast as stronger non electric special move, which means teeechnically you could chip down recovery lacking grounds like Lando/Tusk over time but I find this gimmicky and not worth using.
Melmetal meanwhile has been sorely missed since we had to axe it for its crimes under TR with Tera steel banded sets, but now it's far less capable of such nonsense and its offensive/defensive presence will be an Arceus-send for all manner of teams but especially bulkier ones. This is the mon I think will do the most good for teambuilding if we free it.
Terapagos is one I'm rather curious about because we never saw the full extent of its potential as its special form was too busted not to use, but it has a fairly unique toolkit and even without Tera a decent enough statspread alongside a cracked ability. I've been thinking about it, but perhaps options like specs and scarf have potential as an anti-offense tool using its ability to let it soft check things (fun fact: A full health Terapagos easily lives a Mega Medicham CC and can revenge it back with Starstorm). It being a spinner with utility like Toxic and wide coverage also makes me interested in its utility possibilities.
Echoing much of what Moisture said already, but I think it's well known these four kind of worked in a check-check-check dynamic that fell apart once we had to ban Kingambit and thus slowly we had the domino effect afterwards. Also agreed that Pult is the most questionable here, with Kingambit to me feeling the least and Zama a close second. All of these mons brought useful traits to building in some way so I think they're worth considering. Zama and Kingambit especially not being able to cheese past their checks is notable, the latter in a tier dominated by fighting types as is, should be far more palatable. I'm a little iffy on Gholdengo which still had annoying effects on building through its hazard removal blocking, but it being unable to tera may make it easier to get past in that regard but I think it's the mon most worth retesting via suspect rather than a quick drop.
Without Tera I think these two have potential to be alright for the tier and may even bring some cool building qualities which might be useful for bulkier teams. Before its ban, pivot Sneasler sets were alright (not nearly as cracked as SD but you know), and were neat progress makers with Poison Touch allowing it to punish switch ins well. Roaring Moon meanwhile can't just overwhelm teams as easily and enable HO with its raw power. I think Espathra is completely ass without Tera and really wouldn't be broken at all without Tera now, but I'm not in a rush for it to be considered right now. And lastly I think Palafin is worth testing down the road as we're in a wildly different meta now and it lost a primary tool in Tera which limits the brokenness of its BU+Taunt sets while also cutting back the scale of its Banded sets (especially under rain). Its priority might even be useful as an anti-offense tool which I think builders might appreciate.
Other misc stuff like Ape also probably isn't broken anymore but again, like Espathra, not exactly in a rush to revisit it right now.
I think ND Ubers might include a Shedinja or Wonder Guard clause. It would make sense that OU is prioritised over Ubers whenever theres a discrepancy, and Ubers has more freedom with complex bans I think (e.g. Mega Ray). I think this situation is novel though.Just a side note but I dunno if Shed is eligible since it's also banned from Ubers. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this (I'm probably wrong lol).
Anyways not talking about winners and losers but just general wishes on unbans here now that Tera is gone.
Right off these are the easiest and most inoffensive unbans as they were all broken by Tera directly. Eleki was a meme mon last gen without coverage to bust open ground types and now it's back to meme mon status. It has Tera Blast as stronger non electric special move, which means teeechnically you could chip down recovery lacking grounds like Lando/Tusk over time but I find this gimmicky and not worth using.
Melmetal meanwhile has been sorely missed since we had to axe it for its crimes under TR with Tera steel banded sets, but now it's far less capable of such nonsense and its offensive/defensive presence will be an Arceus-send for all manner of teams but especially bulkier ones. This is the mon I think will do the most good for teambuilding if we free it.
Terapagos is one I'm rather curious about because we never saw the full extent of its potential as its special form was too busted not to use, but it has a fairly unique toolkit and even without Tera a decent enough statspread alongside a cracked ability. I've been thinking about it, but perhaps options like specs and scarf have potential as an anti-offense tool using its ability to let it soft check things (fun fact: A full health Terapagos easily lives a Mega Medicham CC and can revenge it back with Starstorm). It being a spinner with utility like Toxic and wide coverage also makes me interested in its utility possibilities.
Echoing much of what Moisture said already, but I think it's well known these four kind of worked in a check-check-check dynamic that fell apart once we had to ban Kingambit and thus slowly we had the domino effect afterwards. Also agreed that Pult is the most questionable here, with Kingambit to me feeling the least and Zama a close second. All of these mons brought useful traits to building in some way so I think they're worth considering. Zama and Kingambit especially not being able to cheese past their checks is notable, the latter in a tier dominated by fighting types as is, should be far more palatable. I'm a little iffy on Gholdengo which still had annoying effects on building through its hazard removal blocking, but it being unable to tera may make it easier to get past in that regard but I think it's the mon most worth retesting via suspect rather than a quick drop.
Without Tera I think these two have potential to be alright for the tier and may even bring some cool building qualities which might be useful for bulkier teams. Before its ban, pivot Sneasler sets were alright (not nearly as cracked as SD but you know), and were neat progress makers with Poison Touch allowing it to punish switch ins well. Roaring Moon meanwhile can't just overwhelm teams as easily and enable HO with its raw power. I think Espathra is completely ass without Tera and really wouldn't be broken at all without Tera now, but I'm not in a rush for it to be considered right now. And lastly I think Palafin is worth testing down the road as we're in a wildly different meta now and it lost a primary tool in Tera which limits the brokenness of its BU+Taunt sets while also cutting back the scale of its Banded sets (especially under rain). Its priority might even be useful as an anti-offense tool which I think builders might appreciate.
Other misc stuff like Ape also probably isn't broken anymore but again, like Espathra, not exactly in a rush to revisit it right now.
Oh yeah, and Palafin. I agree with that.
I do think Ape is probably broken? No harm in testing it though, as a low priority.
Maybe
because it definitely was a great tera user, and losing tera basically limits the potentially broken sets to only Dragonium because I’m pretty confident Teraless Booster Outrage won’t be too great in this tier, diminishing its formidable set diversity that was cited in many users’ ban reasoning during its suspect. Bulky Boots Goug I think is a healthy presence that can check mons like Zard-Y, Volcarona, and Gholdengo on balance structures, so it does add some value. Zama also strongly encourages Jolly rather than Adamant, as otherwise Zama can come in and IDef up on Goug’s Z, all of which limits its power. And even if Goug is Jolly and blows its Z on a sacrifice, Zama can use Goug as set-up fodder, which is bad news for the offense teams that Z-Goug fits on. And a lot of its brokenness kinda came from stacking it with other mons as well I think, and hopefully a teraless metagame will address the saturation.
Kingambit held the tier together!
Bring back the King! BRING BACK THE KING!
In all seriousness, I do think Kingambit would be manageable and healthy for the tier. It helps fight dumb HO, and pursuit traps the ghosts that might return to the tier. Also manages to be a soft check to a lot of dangerous sweepers and provides a level of utility that isn't really seen in SV OU. Before you say sucker punch mindgames, you have to admit that playing against Raging Bolt can also be a form of sucker punch mindgames. We manage Bolt well enough and Kingambit would be similiar. Somebody pointed out that Ferrothorn can be overwhelmed by Kingambit and to that I say that SV OU doesn't even have Ferrothorn at all and it is totally managable in that tier with other broken sweepers running around that aren't even in National Dex.
Free the King and let him bring balance to the kingdom.
Bring back the King! BRING BACK THE KING!
In all seriousness, I do think Kingambit would be manageable and healthy for the tier. It helps fight dumb HO, and pursuit traps the ghosts that might return to the tier. Also manages to be a soft check to a lot of dangerous sweepers and provides a level of utility that isn't really seen in SV OU. Before you say sucker punch mindgames, you have to admit that playing against Raging Bolt can also be a form of sucker punch mindgames. We manage Bolt well enough and Kingambit would be similiar. Somebody pointed out that Ferrothorn can be overwhelmed by Kingambit and to that I say that SV OU doesn't even have Ferrothorn at all and it is totally managable in that tier with other broken sweepers running around that aren't even in National Dex.
Free the King and let him bring balance to the kingdom.
Shedinja is free to be unbanned in OU as Ubers tiering and OU tiering aren't connected.
*sighs* dengo is now legal fuckin hell...
Is it true all of the banned Pokémon are just coming back?
Now come the days of the King. May they be blessed.
Kingambit: "This day does not belong to one Pokemon but to all. Let us together rebuild this tier. That we may share in the days of competitiveness and peace.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn’ Ambar-metta!
Kingambit: "This day does not belong to one Pokemon but to all. Let us together rebuild this tier. That we may share in the days of competitiveness and peace.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn’ Ambar-metta!
Gambit/Zama/Ghold all got freed from the shackles of meta progression
(Not too excited about pult being freed though)
Welcome back old friends
Anyway, this is gonna get people talking even in other metas for sure because this is massive
Also free espathra that mon is a fraud without tera, we draft players know wholeheartedly
Lastly:
Big day today
(Not too excited about pult being freed though)
Welcome back old friends
Anyway, this is gonna get people talking even in other metas for sure because this is massive
Also free espathra that mon is a fraud without tera, we draft players know wholeheartedly
Lastly:
It seems other council members from other metas are already interesting in seeing how this goes
Big day today
Terapagos has really cool synergy with Hwish Hatt, here's a team I've been running: https://pokepast.es/06b8170dbae2cbfd
From my brief experience in this new metagame so far:
1. Terapagos was extremely underrated - It utterly destroys Hyper Offense if you can maintain Tera Shell. I feel like some people may literally not have known this mon existed. I believe double dance sets are the best, haven't tried Spin.
2. No one prepares for Zamazenta - Not a broken mon, but people are still using teams that literally pretend this mon does not exist. Times have changed.
3. Gambit feels great - Definitely not broken, but a nice bulky hit taker. When Urshifu-R comes in, I now can't actually contemplate staying in...
4. (Team specific) Eject Button on Hatt feels both crazy good and self-sabotage at times. Custap probably makes more sense (EDIT: changed it)
From my brief experience in this new metagame so far:
1. Terapagos was extremely underrated - It utterly destroys Hyper Offense if you can maintain Tera Shell. I feel like some people may literally not have known this mon existed. I believe double dance sets are the best, haven't tried Spin.
2. No one prepares for Zamazenta - Not a broken mon, but people are still using teams that literally pretend this mon does not exist. Times have changed.
3. Gambit feels great - Definitely not broken, but a nice bulky hit taker. When Urshifu-R comes in, I now can't actually contemplate staying in...
4. (Team specific) Eject Button on Hatt feels both crazy good and self-sabotage at times. Custap probably makes more sense (EDIT: changed it)
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TERA IS BANNED
PRAISE THE LORD ALMIGHTY
anyway to avoid making this a one-liner, what do you think the new meta game will be like with Kingambit/Gholdengo and Dragapult/Zamazenta triangle
PRAISE THE LORD ALMIGHTY
anyway to avoid making this a one-liner, what do you think the new meta game will be like with Kingambit/Gholdengo and Dragapult/Zamazenta triangle
I think Terapagos is decent but I haven't quite cracked the code on it. Its got a lot of utility with Spin + Toxic + Rocks., surprisingly decent power and coverage with the no drawback 120 BP move + other options like flamethrower, and emergency checking a decent variety of mons. Main issue is the lack of recovery. This probably can be remedied with Wish support with Mola, or Heal Bell support + Rest, but I don't really like Rest on this mon since its already got a bit a 4MSS.
Why did you have to ruin such a good thing? Tera being banned made the tier so much better and now Ghold being unbanned made it so much worse
Was finally ready to splurge into a tier for once and now that motivation’s gone
Was finally ready to splurge into a tier for once and now that motivation’s gone
In all seriousness, I think all Gholdengos have to run Focus Blast from now on. Can't play 5v6 in Gambit meta
One Pokémon shouldn't be the answer to an omnipresent presence like Gholdengo, any team without Kingambit has to rely on wearing it down over time to remove hazards, and Kingambit doesn't even 100% beat Gholdengo at all times.
In all seriousness, I think all Gholdengos have to run Focus Blast from now on. Can't play 5v6 in Gambit meta
are all good Pokemon that put a lot of pressure on Gholdengo and its teams, with there being a high variety of other checks like Ting-Lu, Heatran, etc. that keep pressure up against it. Lots of mons can tech coverage against it, like Terapagos running Flamethrower / Earth Power (which keep the pressure up vs Dengo and aren't niche options since you want them for other guys like Gambit, Heatran, Crown, Melmetal, etc).So far I have not found Gholdengo to be too big of a problem. With Kingambit, Volcarona, and friends being so common, it feels like its on the backfoot a lot, relying on reads / double switches to make progress. This could change if webs become more popular.
Espathra remaining banned despite Tera no longer being available doesn't make sense with its terrible defensive typing, low bulk, and barren movepool.
Gouging Fire was mainly banned due to Tera turbocharging its offensive potential, and I believe it deserves a chance even though defensive Tera is no longer an option to stuff an Outrage.
The council rightly did not drop Ogerpon-Hearthflame as it absolutely still eviscerates fat due to Mold Breaker coupled with high damage potential and decent Base Speed. The council also did well to not drop Baxcalibur, as this thing is ridiculous Tera or no Tera since there is basically no defensive counterplay aside of Dondozo with Tera being banned, and with Tera, not even Dondozo was a serviceable check.
Gouging Fire was mainly banned due to Tera turbocharging its offensive potential, and I believe it deserves a chance even though defensive Tera is no longer an option to stuff an Outrage.
The council rightly did not drop Ogerpon-Hearthflame as it absolutely still eviscerates fat due to Mold Breaker coupled with high damage potential and decent Base Speed. The council also did well to not drop Baxcalibur, as this thing is ridiculous Tera or no Tera since there is basically no defensive counterplay aside of Dondozo with Tera being banned, and with Tera, not even Dondozo was a serviceable check.
RIP Brambleghast
I read somewhere that the council just forgot espathra existed, which is why it wasn't even slated.
Agree with Goug, and it has been voted to be retested, but Dragonium Z was a big thing as well.
I mean mine was intended to be partly a joke, but Magcargo has provided a list of viable counterplay to Gholdengo. Gambit is still what restricts ghold's set variety the most tho.
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