Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Maybe your favorite mon becomes viable. Maybe new cores become good and you find something you love. But certainly, you will get to see new, cool, and fun things on ladder.

Removing Tera will do a lot of good for the tier. Hyper Offense has been so good that it's come at the cost of other teamstyles being much less viable. Everybody should be able to have a fair shot with their favorite teamstyle. Banning Tera would bring the various teamstyles back into balance. This would necessarily make more mons viable. Banning Tera would give you more options in the teambuilder.. Banning Tera would ensure that skill is the deciding factor in matches.

I kept the things in bold bc that's what you highlight for the people.
and what I wanted to keep.
"maybe your favorite mon becomes viable" looks like a measly promise for the people that will lose Garganacl, Glastrier, for the price of "haha u cant kill slowking galar now", and that can be done even with Tera allowed, I got wins against decent players with, most notably:


-Gorebyss (Tera Water Surf Surf Under Rain 2HKO Pink blob. Both of them.)
-Overqwil (SD+ *swift swim + Gunk Shot hits quite hard, very hard, add to that Z water to get rid of tyranic Lando-T and Corv who want to control the mass)
in rain,
-Musharna (haha stored power haha funni)
in what I personally would define as BO, up to interpretation,
-Glastrier (While I shall reckon that Tera+Tera Blast are essential part of its glory, it's a top efficiency TR abuser, what I'd define as Viable, even in a Tera Meta)
-and I feel like the options are varied asf, I dont think it's fair to put it behind a "maybe"(it will be viable) and an "if"(tera gets banned)

"new, cool and fun things" is continuously getting seen on ladder, it just doesn't get the cut beause the new things are often discount [meta mon] that dont do anything better than said meta mon
"everybody should have a fair shot" is the craziest take I've seen on this thread since I'm back, even if I saw people saying ghold would calm down offense. On ladder at least, I didn't sign up in ND OU tours for some time now, you do not know what to expect speaking of archetypes. it could be Weather, Terrain, Hstack, Stall, everything. TR ban will actually Make TR nearly nonexistent, back to the old formula of "dangit I should play doubles", yu know, not very "fair" as you say, and I fail to see which archetype exactly suffers so greatly from Tera. Glowking is doing glowking things except if valiant is unpredictably SD knock, but TB Ground Moth, who isn't OHKOing and is predictable is the problem apparently.
No archetype is broken, none has ever been. ORAS Stall was broken until we banned Msab. SV HO is "broken" (I cannot talk from objective standpoint, I just dont find it any difficulter to bea than stall or Sand) until we ban the more Broken threats, things really broken, like I've heard Kyurem and Waterpon (not that I agree with it, but still).
Again, a hell lot of mons have real potential to be viable now, they are just underexplored
Lastly I assure you Skill is the deciding factor in victory, it always has been except in Shaymin-Sky Era, and hopefullly will always be. not my fault if Non proto atk Great tusk Close Combat Cannot OHKO Untera'd Glastrier, because Hatterene blocked Hazards on my side of the field. I remark that in High ladder people find ways of setting hazards despite hatterene, let it be Skill swap Deo-D, Mold breaker excadrill, stone axe and ceaseless edge, or predicting when it will suicide/switch out. It's skillful Hazard setting. Skillfull play Around Tera is finding the Low-risk play that lets you keep your mon alive/kill ur opp folloxing which is ur priority. I feel like if anything makes Tera that strong, it's that it doesn't use up an item slot. otherwise Tera would be Glorified Z-moves.
anyways allat to say this propaganda is fake and hypocritical

 

[Moyashi]

I kept the things in bold bc that's what you highlight for the people.
and what I wanted to keep.
"maybe your favorite mon becomes viable" looks like a measly promise for the people that will lose Garganacl, Glastrier, for the price of "haha u cant kill slowking galar now", and that can be done even with Tera allowed, I got wins against decent players with, most notably:


-Gorebyss (Tera Water Surf Surf Under Rain 2HKO Pink blob. Both of them.)
-Overqwil (SD+ *swift swim + Gunk Shot hits quite hard, very hard, add to that Z water to get rid of tyranic Lando-T and Corv who want to control the mass)
in rain,
-Musharna (haha stored power haha funni)
in what I personally would define as BO, up to interpretation,
-Glastrier (While I shall reckon that Tera+Tera Blast are essential part of its glory, it's a top efficiency TR abuser, what I'd define as Viable, even in a Tera Meta)
-and I feel like the options are varied asf, I dont think it's fair to put it behind a "maybe"(it will be viable) and an "if"(tera gets banned)

Lose Glastrier? It's hard to lose something that we never had to begin with. It's not viable, hasn't been and won't be. As for Garg, we won't lose it. It'll take a sizable hit and won't be as slappable, but even at base it still provides a useful check to various pokemon, from Volcarona (who without Tera can't even beat it reliably), ZardY (though take caution around Solar Beam of course), Tapu Koko, Zapdos, some Kyurem variants, and it's still a nice stealth rocker that beats common removal options long term (except Gliscor).

Not even sure what "you can't kill Glowking now" is supposed to mean about a post tera meta, since it's both random and not even true to begin with, but also I'd argue that Glowking getting better post Tera (which it would in a give and take manner, since it also cannot tera for emergencies anymore) means it can check more things consistently like it's supposed to.

"new, cool and fun things" is continuously getting seen on ladder, it just doesn't get the cut beause the new things are often discount [meta mon] that dont do anything better than said meta mon
"everybody should have a fair shot" is the craziest take I've seen on this thread since I'm back, even if I saw people saying ghold would calm down offense. On ladder at least, I didn't sign up in ND OU tours for some time now, you do not know what to expect speaking of archetypes. it could be Weather, Terrain, Hstack, Stall, everything. TR ban will actually Make TR nearly nonexistent, back to the old formula of "dangit I should play doubles", yu know, not very "fair" as you say, and I fail to see which archetype exactly suffers so greatly from Tera. Glowking is doing glowking things except if valiant is unpredictably SD knock, but TB Ground Moth, who isn't OHKOing and is predictable is the problem apparently.
No archetype is broken, none has ever been. ORAS Stall was broken until we banned Msab. SV HO is "broken" (I cannot talk from objective standpoint, I just dont find it any difficulter to bea than stall or Sand) until we ban the more Broken threats, things really broken, like I've heard Kyurem and Waterpon (not that I agree with it, but still).
Again, a hell lot of mons have real potential to be viable now, they are just underexplored
Lastly I assure you Skill is the deciding factor in victory, it always has been except in Shaymin-Sky Era, and hopefullly will always be. not my fault if Non proto atk Great tusk Close Combat Cannot OHKO Untera'd Glastrier, because Hatterene blocked Hazards on my side of the field. I remark that in High ladder people find ways of setting hazards despite hatterene, let it be Skill swap Deo-D, Mold breaker excadrill, stone axe and ceaseless edge, or predicting when it will suicide/switch out. It's skillful Hazard setting. Skillfull play Around Tera is finding the Low-risk play that lets you keep your mon alive/kill ur opp folloxing which is ur priority. I feel like if anything makes Tera that strong, it's that it doesn't use up an item slot. otherwise Tera would be Glorified Z-moves.
anyways allat to say this propaganda is fake and hypocritical

Your "new fun things" argument is, as far as I can understand, referring to random gimmicks that might win sometimes off surprise factor. This doesn't really make for an argument for keeping Tera around, as it has nothing to due with actual tier enjoyment, stability or balance of the metagame at large. Especially since you won't be seeing these gimmicks realistically outside low-mid ladder except when someone wants to be funny and bring one to higher ladder, which is more a representation of player skill rather than the degree of viability of that gimmick.

You say you fail to see what archetype has suffered from Tera, but Glowking has been struggling more and more because it's so often relied on to check so much that it gets OVER relied on, leading to it being specifically teched for and exploited as a result, and even before that it's grown more prone to being overwhelmed by the stronger and stronger offense teams that are present.

You say no archetype is broken, but it's not necessarily about being broken outright (and none being broken is debatable). Offense teams are overwhelmingly favored in this metagame, with balance struggling more than ever before as they cannot hope to account for enough of the major threats to reliably function without being pidgeonholed into extremely rigid structures and even then, they still end up with several flaws. It's so easy to load up huge threats on offense that overwhelm each other's checks. A lot of mons aren't individually issues, but stacking them together exacerbates one another's effect greatly. And this is further compounded by Tera, which significantly inflates the list of things one needs to account for.

Tera abusers range from Iron Crown, Raging Bolt, Archaludon, Dragonite, Kyurem, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, Tapu Lele, Volcarona and probably even some I forgot. They all add a frustrating building stress when opponents can stack multiple together and overwhelm slower teams. Playing balance, it really feels like you're just hoping you don't run into the threats you couldn't prep for. And, because there's still realistically a lot of unchecked boxes in the "What I need to be prepared for" list when trying to work on these teams, you'll have more instances of this than is fun to deal with. I've gotten pretty sick and tired of loading up some balance experiment, starting off decent thinking it's working out alright just to run into a problem match up after not too long and realize "Oh I forgot to check this mon off the list too, welp into the garbage this team goes" because there's no real good way to make adjustments to the team without compromising on other polarizing match ups.

(and for the record, that list of abusers doesn't even delve into the many possible sub-tera types they can pick from, further exacerbating the long list of things to account for).

 

[Toxic Ariados]

IT'S ABOUT TIME!

Looks like all the format's players, [[Abandoned it for the slime]] Tera is?
Fun gone down the [[Drain]] [[Drain]]??
LIVING IN A GODDAMN OFFENSIVELY SKEWED META???
​

Well, has the council got a [[Specil Deal]] for us! Now's our chance to be [[BIG SHOTS]]! With this Tera suspect we can finally wipe this mechanic off of National Dex for good!

I have quite a lot of things to say about Tera, but I'll save most of it for the suspect thread. The main reason I will be voting ban on Tera is because it's just too game-warping for the format. The existence of Tera makes it very hard to commit to a play. You might not want to click Earthquake on a Heatran in fear of it Terastallizing and flipping the script on you, but if you don't attack it and U-Turn out or something and it doesn't Tera then you just wasted that chance to remove the Heatran. Tera creates ridiculous guessing games out of situations where the "logical" play can be punished by the click of a button that lets you turn your Heatran into a Flying type to evade an Earthquake, or turning your Dragonite into the Steel type to absorb an incoming Toxic.

And let's not forget about offensive Tera, which is far more potent. Does your Ferrothorn live at least 3 Lele Psychics, allowing you to throw out a T-Wave or get rocks up safely? No, it doesn't because the opponent just Terastallized their Lele into a Psychic type, 2 hit KO'ing your Ferrothorn on the switch, removing it from the game. Do you want to Bullet Punch that weakened Kyurem? Nah, it Tera Fires and Tera Blasts your Scizor into oblivion, have fun trying to remove that from the field.

I could go on, but I'll write my full thoughts on the suspect thread later. The bottom line is that Tera by nature favors offense teams by allowing players to brute force defensive checks to their Pokemon, or giving their Pokemon strong coverage that they don't have access to via Tera Blast. You'll almost always have to Tera in response to stop a well timed offensive Tera. I don't think banning more Pokemon will ever fix the overarching problem that is Tera. We might just be cutting off a hydra as we result to banning more Pokemon if we allow Tera to stay, as soon as we ban one Pokemon, two more will rise in it's stead.

Well, now it's your chance to be a [[BIG SHOT]] by voting to ban Tera! We have one last chance to purge this wretched mechanic forever, so pray to [Heaven] that we don't fail.

After all, third time's the charm, right?

 

[BrisingrDraconis]

I want to preface this by saying that I'm not particularly good, nor am I particularly knowledgable about national dex (or pokemon as a whole), so take all of this with a grain of salt. However, I do still want to give my two cents on the current talking point that is tera. For the record, I'm very new to competitive pokemon, I'd only started playing a few months ago, (that's well after like zamazenta ban in natdex). Also if you don't want to hear the opinions of a pretty new player just don't read this because that's all this whole post is.

In my personal experience, it can be really fun to make a great read with tera that'll end up winning you the game, using tera steel on your dragonite to turn alomomola or corviknight into set-up fodder to enable a sweep, or just click absurdly strong buttons with something like tera dark choice band hyperspace fury hoopa-u.

But then, when you step back and look at this, how balanced is it to be able to swap out all of dragonite's weaknesses for resists and gain a toxic immunity to get free ddances? How balanced is it for heatran to be able to click a button to completely wall most yards? How balanced is it for tapu lele to be able to click terrain boosted specs tera psychic psychics and obliterate almost everything that isn't a dark type? At some point, it seems to turn into a battle of "which player has a mon and tera that can flip the outcome of the game in an instant?"

So I think I've successfully established that I believe tera is an unfair mechanic, that might not be what everyone thinks, but it doesn't have to be. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

On the other hand, there's the argument of tera being a restrictive mechanic, or contrarily, a freeing one. Like Kin+ak was saying, it allows previously unviable mons to become (at least somewhat) viable. That's pretty great. It's really awesome to be able to innovate with and use niche mons that no one else would previously have had a use for. But, with that, comes more restrictions in building. For example, it's extremely difficult to make a balance or fat team because there are just so many possible things that need to be checked, be it mons that tera to overpower their checks, mons that use tera blast to flip a matchup, or there just being more mons and coverage options that need to be accounted for in the builder. And it isn't that tera is objectively bad and should be banned because of this, like Ursaluna tends to destroy fatter teams, but that doesn't mean it should be banned. However, I do think that tera making fatter structures much less viable (from what I've experienced and been told at least) is a contributing factor as to why tera could/should be banned.

Overall, I would say that tera tends to be more restrictive than freeing in the builder, primarily due to it heavily contributing to the unviability of several archetypes.

In my opinion, tera just isn't a very balanced or fair mechanic, and it hurts the tier more than it helps the tier, so as a result, I don't think tera should continue to exist in the tier.

Will I be getting reqs to vote to ban tera? Probably not, I doubt I'd be able to if I tried. But maybe I will try and somehow be able to, and unless someone shows me the light that tera brings to the tier, I'd be voting to ban it.

And on the topic of "if tera gets banned, then we get to free [insert mon banned because of tera here]" or "if tera gets banned, then [insert mon made viable because of tera] will be unviable": That shouldn't be a contributing factor to anyone's vote, in my opinion. Would I love to use kingambit or melmetal if they were freed as a result of a tera ban? Yeah, I'd love it, those guys are pretty cool. Would I be sad if dragonite fell off because of a tera ban? Yeah, I would. But those wouldn't be a contributing factor one way or the other on my vote (if I managed to get reqs) because that doesn't have any reflection on tera being a balanced mechanic or anything like that.

I just wanted to share my opinions on the matter, as good or as bad as they may be. Feel free to completely disregard this if you think I'm an idiot, but hopefully, there's at least one person out there who was able to read this and look at the issue in a way they hadn't before or something. Idk. And sorry if stuff in this post seems kinda out of order or anything, I don't really want to spend half an hour proofreading and editing my opinions to make it easier to read lol. So yeah anyways those are my thoughts on the matter.

Sorry if you struggled through reading all of this and then decided "you know what, this guy's an idiot!" :)

 

[Toxic Ariados]

BrisingrDraconis you should at least try to go for reqs, there's no shame in trying!

Anyways, I just thought I'd say that I really dislike the "Tera should stay because it makes weak Pokemon usable!" argument because it comes off as incredibly ignorant towards the bigger picture. Yes, your "weak Pokemon" might benefit from Tera, but won't that mean that it also pushes stronger Pokemon way over the edge? Those Pokemon can be weeded out and banned, but by doing so, doesn't that just confirm that Tera is the root of the problem? I don't think that the health of the format should be jeopardized just so people can use Tera Dragon Charizard or something like that.

 

[slug]

I kept the things in bold bc that's what you highlight for the people.
and what I wanted to keep.
"maybe your favorite mon becomes viable" looks like a measly promise for the people that will lose Garganacl, Glastrier, for the price of "haha u cant kill slowking galar now", and that can be done even with Tera allowed, I got wins against decent players with, most notably:


-Gorebyss (Tera Water Surf Surf Under Rain 2HKO Pink blob. Both of them.)
-Overqwil (SD+ *swift swim + Gunk Shot hits quite hard, very hard, add to that Z water to get rid of tyranic Lando-T and Corv who want to control the mass)
in rain,
-Musharna (haha stored power haha funni)
in what I personally would define as BO, up to interpretation,
-Glastrier (While I shall reckon that Tera+Tera Blast are essential part of its glory, it's a top efficiency TR abuser, what I'd define as Viable, even in a Tera Meta)
-and I feel like the options are varied asf, I dont think it's fair to put it behind a "maybe"(it will be viable) and an "if"(tera gets banned)

"new, cool and fun things" is continuously getting seen on ladder, it just doesn't get the cut beause the new things are often discount [meta mon] that dont do anything better than said meta mon
"everybody should have a fair shot" is the craziest take I've seen on this thread since I'm back, even if I saw people saying ghold would calm down offense. On ladder at least, I didn't sign up in ND OU tours for some time now, you do not know what to expect speaking of archetypes. it could be Weather, Terrain, Hstack, Stall, everything. TR ban will actually Make TR nearly nonexistent, back to the old formula of "dangit I should play doubles", yu know, not very "fair" as you say, and I fail to see which archetype exactly suffers so greatly from Tera. Glowking is doing glowking things except if valiant is unpredictably SD knock, but TB Ground Moth, who isn't OHKOing and is predictable is the problem apparently.
No archetype is broken, none has ever been. ORAS Stall was broken until we banned Msab. SV HO is "broken" (I cannot talk from objective standpoint, I just dont find it any difficulter to bea than stall or Sand) until we ban the more Broken threats, things really broken, like I've heard Kyurem and Waterpon (not that I agree with it, but still).
Again, a hell lot of mons have real potential to be viable now, they are just underexplored
Lastly I assure you Skill is the deciding factor in victory, it always has been except in Shaymin-Sky Era, and hopefullly will always be. not my fault if Non proto atk Great tusk Close Combat Cannot OHKO Untera'd Glastrier, because Hatterene blocked Hazards on my side of the field. I remark that in High ladder people find ways of setting hazards despite hatterene, let it be Skill swap Deo-D, Mold breaker excadrill, stone axe and ceaseless edge, or predicting when it will suicide/switch out. It's skillful Hazard setting. Skillfull play Around Tera is finding the Low-risk play that lets you keep your mon alive/kill ur opp folloxing which is ur priority. I feel like if anything makes Tera that strong, it's that it doesn't use up an item slot. otherwise Tera would be Glorified Z-moves.
anyways allat to say this propaganda is fake and hypocritical

i hate doing one liners, man, but im not reading allat when the primary basis of these arguments is using examples coming from svnd's infamously unserious ladder. in addition, Moyashi made exemplary points, points i can not make better myself.

so in short, ur saying tera is a crutch bad mons and archetypes need for a smidge of viability? alr. i, and many others whos interests lie in the grand scheme of things regarding the overall health of the tier, dont really vibe w that, but ok.

 

[sh0shin]

appreciate the level-headedness in these replies. can't fathom the mental hoops one jumps through to conclude disagreement over Tera in Pokemon is propaganda and that "no archetype has ever been broken" -- why do we have entire councils dedicated to tier balance and established processes which govern balancing?

back to the point at hand, I'm so glad this is happening again, and even if it should ultimately fail, I can say I tried my best to get the result I wanted. I'm just happy we have the chance to try. it's been a long time coming in my view, so let's see if we can do it.
the tier will still be volatile due to its sheer size, general power creep, and z moves + megas that generally favor offense, but SSND has clearly been able to stabilize over the long term, so there's hope we will get somewhere close by the end of the gen.
to those of you who may think Tera is cool/unique/fun: let's see you try to get reqs and vote, too! your opinion is valid. good luck everyone

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

i hate doing one liners, man, but im not reading allat when the primary basis of these arguments is using examples coming from svnd's infamously unserious ladder. in addition, Moyashi made exemplary points, points i can not make better myself.

so in short, ur saying tera is a crutch bad mons and archetypes need for a smidge of viability? alr. i, and many others whos interests lie in the grand scheme of things regarding the overall health of the tier, dont really vibe w that, but ok.

Yea I bet you ain't reading, allat, most of the Pokémon I cited do not require Tera to win? I said, overqwil uses Z moves, Musharna is a stored power sweeper that does not require Tera to get out of toxic, Glastrier without Tera Can OHKO all of the Meta, Tera is what it uses to deal with Corv and Mola mainly, Again, I rarely Tera it over Ursaluna or sum.

BrisingrDraconis you should at least try to go for reqs, there's no shame in trying!

Anyways, I just thought I'd say that I really dislike the "Tera should stay because it makes weak Pokemon usable!" argument because it comes off as incredibly ignorant towards the bigger picture. Yes, your "weak Pokemon" might benefit from Tera, but won't that mean that it also pushes stronger Pokemon way over the edge? Those Pokemon can be weeded out and banned, but by doing so, doesn't that just confirm that Tera is the root of the problem? I don't think that the health of the format should be jeopardized just so people can use Tera Dragon Charizard or something like that.

"Tera makes weak pokemon usable" is not an argument pro-Tera. "weak pokemon" as you say is the general term everyone utilizes for pokemon that haven't shown significant results that they know of - that is, regardless of if anyone runs it at all - and doesn't mean much of anything, really. no one entered Gorebyss in the builder to discover
+2 252+ SpA Gorebyss Psychic vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Toxapex: 280-330 (92.4 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gorebyss Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike in Rain: 333-392 (97.6 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gorebyss Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 339-400 (47.4 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Why, none of these calcs are using Tera.



Anyways other than turning my arguments into grotesque one-liners, the fact that I use them and make them work and do their job does not mean one can js say that this is the one and only reason I want tera to stay. I have stated my opinion, I have countered absurd arguments using specific examples and stepping on these specific examples to countradict my whole point doesn't look like a healthy argument to me.

 

[CappyThePulpy]

Thank god it’s happening! I will not comment too much on the suspect, except for responding to a comment above:
There is nothing inherently wrong with one archetype being stronger than others (gen 8 future port example). The issue is when this archetype is HO or stall, which are way less interactive and frankly require a lot less skill. Stall is pretty much the biggest matchup fish right now and HO being so good means that the more skilled player is not rewarded as they should be. HO is significantly harder to play against than it is to pilot. Deciding the order of your 5 sweepers and who to tera is most of the HO decision-making and is hardly the pinnacle of skill

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Not even sure what "you can't kill Glowking now" is supposed to mean about a post tera meta, since it's both random and not even true to begin with, but also I'd argue that Glowking getting better post Tera (which it would in a give and take manner, since it also cannot tera for emergencies anymore) means it can check more things consistently like it's supposed

I heard a lot of complaints "heatran/glowking is not a moth check as it should be because of tera" so My bad, shoulda precised.

1. It's quite interesting that you mention that a supposed sizeable portion of the playerbase doesn't want the tier to be redone, when the survey dictates quite the opposite. Of course, that's all up to interpretation, but one of the most effectual conclusions that can be drawn from a majority disliking the current state of things is that the tier is in dire need of a makeover. And no, it wouldn't be sincere to take a solely objective stance on the issue, but shouldn't we aim to be as sound as possible?

that's I good point I passed over, I'll answer now:

We shouldn't try to remodel the tier towards something a significant part of the playerbase doesn't want it to be remodeled towards, and I am of the part that likes the current state of the meta.

this is what I said, word for word. the Survey states that the enjoyment is higher than the Balance, and the remarkable drop was in Balance, and Ogerpon and Kyurem both got over 3, while Tera got .5 more than Waterpon if we scale it out of 5, because people mashed 10 on tera and 1 on nearly everything else to ensure Tiering action was to be taken, without considering the fact that the biggest change from last Year and last suspect is the pokemon pool. Look I've been Victim of propaganda myself, I dont blame em, I just notice. sure, sure, 87 people might as well just find Tera insanely broken, they have their lives and their opinions; but as much as the anti-tera camp is convinced it is the case, I am convinced it is not.
what I also mean, because I am not the best at communication, is that while the enjoyment dropped, it doesn't mean it's becase of tera. some people profoundly hate Waterpon or L yurem or Gliscor or, in my case, Raging bolt (you can do it awyp i believe in u)

I do think that after Tera ban it will still be a chain of bans until the tier becomes SS++ if it continues in the trend of "I rlly hate it when I have to consider very strong things in the builder" which, sure is is to be expected in a tier with a principle such as Natdex where it attrayed a highly nostalgic playerbase. no, I am not saying that Nostalgia is the reason of the Tera ban, I am saying that it feels to me, as someone who started Strategy at the end of Gen 8, that a lot of arguments are based off of examples from the distant past where game freak gave a "fire(except XY apparently(not referencing to anything said before in this thread, dont hit on me with this specific example))" game to the people and watched Competitive build itself up. Now Gamefreak sees tf is going on and releases new mons you can't tell me raging bolt and archaludon weren't even somewhat designed to nerf Shifu, or Stellar to nerf The other Teras (epic fail btw).

Thank god it’s happening! I will not comment too much on the suspect, except for responding to a comment above:
There is nothing inherently wrong with one archetype being stronger than others (gen 8 future port example). The issue is when this archetype is HO or stall, which are way less interactive and frankly require a lot less skill. Stall is pretty much the biggest matchup fish right now and HO being so good means that the more skilled player is not rewarded as they should be. HO is significantly harder to play against than it is to pilot. Deciding the order of your 5 sweepers and who to tera is most of the HO decision-making and is hardly the pinnacle of skill

putting it like that makes it easier for me to understand the people's problem with HO, which, yea, I get, but it's not like the Main problem is playing sweepers in general, it's what sweeper. I play TR, the "Good MU fish", and pray for the Waterpon not to Tera, because then there is no check no switchin, so if I may have defended Waterpon before, even if I didn't tryna get reqs for the sus, I dont now. "you want it not to TERA it seems" why yes because it's a waterpon, if it was Tera the problem, heh, I would have Diff views, but yknow how waterpon changes abil upon Tera? that. that i the problem. trade the grass type's weaknesses to become The bulky water at home is an Ogerpon Problem, not a Tera poblem.

 

[CappyThePulpy]

I heard a lot of complaints "heatran/glowking is not a moth check as it should be because of tera" so My bad, shoulda precised.

that's I good point I passed over, I'll answer now:

this is what I said, word for word. the Survey states that the enjoyment is higher than the Balance, and the remarkable drop was in Balance, and Ogerpon and Kyurem both got over 3, while Tera got .5 more than Waterpon if we scale it out of 5, because people mashed 10 on tera and 1 on nearly everything else to ensure Tiering action was to be taken, without considering the fact that the biggest change from last Year and last suspect is the pokemon pool. Look I've been Victim of propaganda myself, I dont blame em, I just notice. sure, sure, 87 people might as well just find Tera insanely broken, they have their lives and their opinions; but as much as the anti-tera camp is convinced it is the case, I am convinced it is not.
what I also mean, because I am not the best at communication, is that while the enjoyment dropped, it doesn't mean it's becase of tera. some people profoundly hate Waterpon or L yurem or Gliscor or, in my case, Raging bolt (you can do it awyp i believe in u)

I do think that after Tera ban it will still be a chain of bans until the tier becomes SS++ if it continues in the trend of "I rlly hate it when I have to consider very strong things in the builder" which, sure is is to be expected in a tier with a principle such as Natdex where it attrayed a highly nostalgic playerbase. no, I am not saying that Nostalgia is the reason of the Tera ban, I am saying that it feels to me, as someone who started Strategy at the end of Gen 8, that a lot of arguments are based off of examples from the distant past where game freak gave a "fire(except XY apparently(not referencing to anything said before in this thread, dont hit on me with this specific example))" game to the people and watched Competitive build itself up. Now Gamefreak sees tf is going on and releases new mons you can't tell me raging bolt and archaludon weren't even somewhat designed to nerf Shifu, or Stellar to nerf The other Teras (epic fail btw).

putting it like that makes it easier for me to understand the people's problem with HO, which, yea, I get, but it's not like the Main problem is playing sweepers in general, it's what sweeper. I play TR, the "Good MU fish", and pray for the Waterpon not to Tera, because then there is no check no switchin, so if I may have defended Waterpon before, even if I didn't tryna get reqs for the sus, I dont now. "you want it not to TERA it seems" why yes because it's a waterpon, if it was Tera the problem, heh, I would have Diff views, but yknow how waterpon changes abil upon Tera? that. that i the problem. trade the grass type's weaknesses to become The bulky water at home is an Ogerpon Problem, not a Tera poblem.

I would stay away from waterpon in the tera discussion. Regardless of what you think about tera or what the suspect test will decide, waterpon has a suspect test coming for it either way. With a tera ban, it may even be more urgent considering we lose stuff like tera dragon mola to check it. Will we see a series of bans after tera ban? I doubt it. My prediction is that, if tera is banned, we will see a waterpon suspect and a string of unban tests for all of the tera abusers which are really not that special without the mechanic. Kyurem is imo a tera abuser issue, giving that thing a good defensive typing instead of the awful dragon/ice pushes it over the edge, which is a case for so many other mons. Tera blast and the stab changes are very much fine, I think it is the defensive typing part of tera which people REALLY want gone

 

[CappyThePulpy]

On an unrelated note, has anyone else noticed the recent increase in aegislash usage? I have found quite a few well-built aegislash teams on ladder and seen some aegislash when spectating games in the higher rating range. Did anyone find some magic formula to make it work? This mon was ignored for the longest time (even in the sneasler meta).

 

[txlix]

Just curious if this suspect results in a terastalisation ban, will previously banned mons that were broken due to tera (walking wake, gouging fire, roaring moon etc.) be unbanned/released back into the tier?

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

Just curious if this suspect results in a terastalisation ban, will previously banned mons that were broken due to tera (walking wake, gouging fire, roaring moon etc.) be unbanned/released back into the tier?

Was already discussed before but walking woke and dousing fire will stay banned as they are more on notable users of z moves + sun but as for roaring moon possible for an unban, as it was banned early this gen.

EDIT: Spelling errors

 

[RUrena888]

Hi all! Quick question: aside from Gen 9 what are some other generations that still have a lot of people playing them? Im specifically wondering about Gens 1-5, and Gen 7. Let me know! Much appreciated in advance.

 

[Patar136]

All the generations have their dedicated player bases but I would probably say Gens 3, 4 and 6 are safe bets. But that's for another forum.

I find the argument that we need Tera to allow bad Pokemon to have a niche just underwhelming. Yes there will be some casualties. Garganacl will probably take a hit when it can't tera dragon to avoid being dead weight in the rain match up. Raging Bolt will not be able to dodge Earthquake revenge kill attempts from offensive Landorus sets. Skeledirge won't be able to wall certain physical attackers when it can't Tera Fairy or Water. However, many of these Pokemon will still be able to achieve their niches regardless. Raging Bolt can still rip apart sun and rain teams without having to Tera since Dragon/Electric has some good qualities to use against them. Garganacl still threatens Charizard, Volcarona and can force progress with Salt Cure. Even Skeledirge, a mon that will suffer quite a bit, will still have some applications as a check to grass types and fairy types that don't use Knock Off.

Plus, let's hear out that perspective: that bad Pokemon will suffer. They will also improve in a tera less metagame.

People already know that I am the #1 Kingdra believer in this forum, admittedly a Pokemon that is very niche in National Dex OU. Oh shucks, I can't strengthen myself further with Tera Water. I can't Tera Steel to set up a Dragon Dance. But surprise surprise, my opponent's Landorus can't Tera Water to avoid getting KOed by my strong attack. Their Heatran can't Tera Grass to avoid getting KOed. They can't Tera Fairy/Steel their Urshifu, you get the point. Pokemon that you would expect to win the match up are now favored to win. When Charizard uses Fire Blast on Corviknight they won't be able to use Tera Dragon to block that from working. When Waterpon clicks Power Whip on Alomomola, they force it to either switch out or use Protect.

More niche Pokemon can still benefit from this mechanic leaving.

 

[Pinkacross]

On this note pinkacross has been here for like two days and has already been innovating the meta, me Kayzn Toxic Ariados and Ineros played a load of matches with him yesterday evening and he brought some super off meta sets that worked out really well such as tera ghost lando, tera water sub tect kyurem and scarf thunderus therian. He also is a big fan of mega pinsir it seems, brought a lot of helmet slowbro which hasnt been as popular as mola lately and specs crown with koko. Its nice to see an outsiders perspective on the tier coming from someone who isn't adapted to our meta trends and can give fresh insight to our tier.

Pinkacross I was wondering if you have any thoughts on how our current meta is after your ladder run and the games we played yesterday.

Hey sorry for the late reply! The NatDex meta seems super cool, glad you guys are suspecting Tera-- I think a Tera ban would bring in a lot of new players and further set the tier apart from SV OU. One thing I should note is that I stole that Tera Water Sub Kyurem set from a guy on ladder who was using the tag "Liaoa," so I can't take credit for that one. Specs Crown with Koko seems super nice, that one I'm surprised isn't more popular. Mega Pinsir, I love as a pokemon but its performance in games has been overall sub-par, it likely deserves it low usage. I certainly plan on playing the tier more and learning, but at the moment I'd say I'm still too inexperienced to make judgments about the metagame. Thank you all for your hospitality though! :D

 

[slug]

In the National Dex metagame of Pokémon, Terastallization (or Tera) can be defended as a well-balanced mechanic that enhances strategic depth, promotes creative team building, and does not overwhelmingly tilt the balance of the game when used skillfully. Here’s a comprehensive defense of Tera in the National Dex format:

1.​

• Dynamic Typing and Mind Games: Terastallization allows players to change a Pokémon’s type once per game, opening up an array of potential strategies. This dynamic type-changing can lead to mind games, as players must predict or react to their opponent's potential Tera options. This aspect of unpredictability can enhance gameplay by adding another layer of strategy without making the game purely about guessing.
• Decision-Making Element: Deciding when to Terastallize and which Pokémon to use it on becomes an essential decision. Players need to assess their team’s strengths and weaknesses carefully and make the most of this one-time opportunity to gain an edge. By making Terastallization a one-time use per game, it prevents over-reliance on it and ensures that it doesn’t become a repetitive or predictable mechanic.

2.​

• New Viable Sets and Builds: Terastallization increases diversity by making less-used Pokémon more viable. A Pokémon that might struggle in its original typing can find new life with Tera, creating new team compositions and improving overall variety in the metagame. For instance, previously vulnerable Pokémon can become bulkier or more offensive by changing to a type that resists common threats or enhances their STAB (Same Type Attack Bonus).
• Encourages Versatile Movesets: With the potential for different Tera types, Pokémon can run moves that take advantage of new STAB options, making them more versatile in different scenarios. This broadens viable move pools and can make matches less predictable, helping to prevent a stale metagame.

3.​

• One-Time Use Balancing Factor: The single-use limit keeps Terastallization from becoming overly dominant in battles. Unlike mechanics such as Dynamax, which provided a consistent boost over multiple turns and had more straightforward applications, Terastallization’s one-time use requires players to maximize its effectiveness in that moment alone. This balance keeps the mechanic powerful but not game-breaking.
• Trade-Offs: Changing a Pokémon’s type with Terastallization is not risk-free; it can remove helpful resistances or even make a Pokémon vulnerable to other threats. For example, a Pokémon Terastallizing from Water to Grass might gain an advantage against specific threats but lose its immunity or resistance to Fire, thus keeping players mindful of the strategic risks involved. This trade-off forces players to weigh options carefully and rewards good decision-making over sheer power.

4.​

• Breaks Down Overpowered Threats: Terastallization can prevent certain high-tier threats from dominating the metagame by offering new ways to counter them. For instance, a Pokémon with a weak matchup against a top-tier threat might find a favorable Tera type that helps it resist or counter that threat, leading to fewer overwhelming forces in the meta and more balanced play.
• More Options to Address Common Playstyles: Tera allows teams to adjust their weaknesses and have unique answers to dominant archetypes, like weather teams or hyper-offense. By giving players the flexibility to adapt to different matchups with a single Tera change, it reduces the need to use a small pool of Pokémon to handle a specific playstyle. This has the potential to make the meta less centralized around a few counters and more balanced overall.

5.​

• Distinguishes National Dex from Other Metas: National Dex, as a format, benefits from its blend of mechanics from various generations, and Terastallization adds a unique, competitive element that separates it from other modes. Unlike Dynamax, which was removed from most formats due to its overwhelming power, Terastallization’s controlled, one-time use makes it fit well without overpowering battles.
• Shows Restraint Compared to Past Mechanic Power Levels: Compared to Mega Evolution (which permanently boosts a Pokémon’s stats and abilities) and Dynamax (which gives boosted HP and three turns of power), Terastallization’s benefits are more restrained. The user gains either a type advantage or additional STAB, which can be powerful in the right hands but is not inherently overwhelming. Thus, it strikes a fair balance, making it competitive yet reasonable.

6.​

• Adaptability Based on Player Experience: Terastallization has sparked extensive discussion and experimentation, leading to a National Dex format where both offensive and defensive Tera strategies can shine. If any Pokémon with specific Tera combinations becomes overly oppressive, the community can address it through Pokémon-specific bans (like Tera Blast or specific Tera types), allowing for fine-tuning without banning the mechanic outright.

In Summary​

Terastallization in National Dex offers a balance of flexibility, risk, and strategic depth that adds a unique flavor to the game without being excessively powerful. The one-time nature of Tera usage, the trade-offs it requires, and its potential to diversify team building make it a compelling mechanic that enriches the meta rather than breaking it. While powerful, Tera doesn’t force predictable gameplay patterns; instead, it encourages thoughtful play and creative adaptation to opponents’ strategies, making it a valuable and balanced addition to the National Dex format.

Great read, m8! Unfortunately, these points are either basic definitions of the mechanic but unnecessarily elongated, or completely irrelevant points made in a vacuum. This just shows little to no familiarity with the tier this suspect is regarding to. Which is an issue I'm noticing far and far more as I dwell into discussions across multiple communities from other gens that are banding together in unison for the suspect.

more yap

1. While yes, Tera-ing isn't skilless, it's not that deep.

2. This is just flat out wrong. The meta game is stale because it makes good shit even better, like Crown, Bolt, Kyu, Volc, Dnite, Archa, Val, etc. etc. One look at the viability rankings is enough to make one realize that the point of "Terastallization increases diversity by making less-used Pokémon more viable." is a full on phalacy.

3.While defensively, it does have some risks, offensive Tera-ing means mons can now make favorable trades that range from winning an interaction and denting possible s/is and checks, to getting away with full on games. In short, there's little trade off to speak of.

4. THIS just shows a complete ignorance towards the tier. Sorry, not sorry, but this reads as having played 10 ladder games and rolling with it.

5. The argument of "Distinguishes National Dex from Other Metas" is incredibly, stupidfyingly uncomptititve.

6. This is just calling for complex bans.

With this I urge people that are interested in casting their vote to please familiarize themselves with the tier before taking a solid stance. Whether you'd like to keep Tera or not (as I'm personally flipping from one side to the other every few hours), I plead you to do some basic research: replays, usage statistics from ladder, PL and FL, asking around, anything! Please, is it that hard?

Edit: formatting

damn im stupid

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

In the National Dex metagame of Pokémon, Terastallization (or Tera) can be defended as a well-balanced mechanic that enhances strategic depth, promotes creative team building, and does not overwhelmingly tilt the balance of the game when used skillfully. Here’s a comprehensive defense of Tera in the National Dex format:

1.​

• Dynamic Typing and Mind Games: Terastallization allows players to change a Pokémon’s type once per game, opening up an array of potential strategies. This dynamic type-changing can lead to mind games, as players must predict or react to their opponent's potential Tera options. This aspect of unpredictability can enhance gameplay by adding another layer of strategy without making the game purely about guessing.
• Decision-Making Element: Deciding when to Terastallize and which Pokémon to use it on becomes an essential decision. Players need to assess their team’s strengths and weaknesses carefully and make the most of this one-time opportunity to gain an edge. By making Terastallization a one-time use per game, it prevents over-reliance on it and ensures that it doesn’t become a repetitive or predictable mechanic.

2.​

• New Viable Sets and Builds: Terastallization increases diversity by making less-used Pokémon more viable. A Pokémon that might struggle in its original typing can find new life with Tera, creating new team compositions and improving overall variety in the metagame. For instance, previously vulnerable Pokémon can become bulkier or more offensive by changing to a type that resists common threats or enhances their STAB (Same Type Attack Bonus).
• Encourages Versatile Movesets: With the potential for different Tera types, Pokémon can run moves that take advantage of new STAB options, making them more versatile in different scenarios. This broadens viable move pools and can make matches less predictable, helping to prevent a stale metagame.

3.​

• One-Time Use Balancing Factor: The single-use limit keeps Terastallization from becoming overly dominant in battles. Unlike mechanics such as Dynamax, which provided a consistent boost over multiple turns and had more straightforward applications, Terastallization’s one-time use requires players to maximize its effectiveness in that moment alone. This balance keeps the mechanic powerful but not game-breaking.
• Trade-Offs: Changing a Pokémon’s type with Terastallization is not risk-free; it can remove helpful resistances or even make a Pokémon vulnerable to other threats. For example, a Pokémon Terastallizing from Water to Grass might gain an advantage against specific threats but lose its immunity or resistance to Fire, thus keeping players mindful of the strategic risks involved. This trade-off forces players to weigh options carefully and rewards good decision-making over sheer power.

4.​

• Breaks Down Overpowered Threats: Terastallization can prevent certain high-tier threats from dominating the metagame by offering new ways to counter them. For instance, a Pokémon with a weak matchup against a top-tier threat might find a favorable Tera type that helps it resist or counter that threat, leading to fewer overwhelming forces in the meta and more balanced play.
• More Options to Address Common Playstyles: Tera allows teams to adjust their weaknesses and have unique answers to dominant archetypes, like weather teams or hyper-offense. By giving players the flexibility to adapt to different matchups with a single Tera change, it reduces the need to use a small pool of Pokémon to handle a specific playstyle. This has the potential to make the meta less centralized around a few counters and more balanced overall.

5.​

• Distinguishes National Dex from Other Metas: National Dex, as a format, benefits from its blend of mechanics from various generations, and Terastallization adds a unique, competitive element that separates it from other modes. Unlike Dynamax, which was removed from most formats due to its overwhelming power, Terastallization’s controlled, one-time use makes it fit well without overpowering battles.
• Shows Restraint Compared to Past Mechanic Power Levels: Compared to Mega Evolution (which permanently boosts a Pokémon’s stats and abilities) and Dynamax (which gives boosted HP and three turns of power), Terastallization’s benefits are more restrained. The user gains either a type advantage or additional STAB, which can be powerful in the right hands but is not inherently overwhelming. Thus, it strikes a fair balance, making it competitive yet reasonable.

6.​

• Adaptability Based on Player Experience: Terastallization has sparked extensive discussion and experimentation, leading to a National Dex format where both offensive and defensive Tera strategies can shine. If any Pokémon with specific Tera combinations becomes overly oppressive, the community can address it through Pokémon-specific bans (like Tera Blast or specific Tera types), allowing for fine-tuning without banning the mechanic outright.

In Summary​

Terastallization in National Dex offers a balance of flexibility, risk, and strategic depth that adds a unique flavor to the game without being excessively powerful. The one-time nature of Tera usage, the trade-offs it requires, and its potential to diversify team building make it a compelling mechanic that enriches the meta rather than breaking it. While powerful, Tera doesn’t force predictable gameplay patterns; instead, it encourages thoughtful play and creative adaptation to opponents’ strategies, making it a valuable and balanced addition to the National Dex format.

I do hope that after we ban Tera that we don't get too overzealous with unban tests. Roaring Moon seems fair enough to give another shot, but we do NOT need that string cheese monster running around in Natdex again. I still have nightmares about those dark days.

 

[ant4456]

Great read, m8!

brother this was ai generated

 

[Patar136]

Well now I feel stupid for believing an A.I. post. What is the world coming too.

Anyway, I mentioned that Pokémon like Raging Bolt, Skeledirge, Garganacl could take a hit if Tera goes. What are some other candidates?

There is something to be said of how Tera is a double edged sword. Where defensive Pokémon now have to be concerned about losing to another Mon in the team builder. For example let’s say that you pick Corviknight as the steel type you want on your team. It provides defog support, slow pivoting and it synergies well. Except now you have a steel type that is dead weight to Iron Moth, Charizard and Volcarona. You can’t Tera dragon to avoid getting KOed by them. Maybe not the best example. Let’s try something else.

Okay how about you pick Gliscor as your go to ground type that can both set Stealth Rock and clear it. You match up well enough against Raging Bolt, various fires and annoy Great Tusk. Except you now have a ground type that can’t really do a ton to opposing Corviknight, Waterpon, Moltres etc and is kind of a liability should rain go up. You can’t click Tera water to avoid some bad match ups.

Not saying this is enough to prevent Tera’s ban but it’s worth considering. How good will defensive Pokémon be in this power crept tier when there are so many threats running around?

 

[Oculars]

For example let’s say that you pick Corviknight as the steel type you want on your team. It provides defog support, slow pivoting and it synergies well. Except now you have a steel type that is dead weight to Iron Moth, Charizard and Volcarona

This is literally how mons has worked for the entire existence of mons, steel types are supposed to lose to fire types.

 

[CappyThePulpy]

Well now I feel stupid for believing an A.I. post. What is the world coming too.

Anyway, I mentioned that Pokémon like Raging Bolt, Skeledirge, Garganacl could take a hit if Tera goes. What are some other candidates?

There is something to be said of how Tera is a double edged sword. Where defensive Pokémon now have to be concerned about losing to another Mon in the team builder. For example let’s say that you pick Corviknight as the steel type you want on your team. It provides defog support, slow pivoting and it synergies well. Except now you have a steel type that is dead weight to Iron Moth, Charizard and Volcarona. You can’t Tera dragon to avoid getting KOed by them. Maybe not the best example. Let’s try something else.

Okay how about you pick Gliscor as your go to ground type that can both set Stealth Rock and clear it. You match up well enough against Raging Bolt, various fires and annoy Great Tusk. Except you now have a ground type that can’t really do a ton to opposing Corviknight, Waterpon, Moltres etc and is kind of a liability should rain go up. You can’t click Tera water to avoid some bad match ups.

Not saying this is enough to prevent Tera’s ban but it’s worth considering. How good will defensive Pokémon be in this power crept tier when there are so many threats running around?

People will have to deal with the type chart as they have done before, without any cheese. Your gliscor is not supposed to beat corvik, slot in a koko for that. Use the type chart checker to make sure your team can resist every type at least in theory

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Well now I feel stupid for believing an A.I. post. What is the world coming too.

Anyway, I mentioned that Pokémon like Raging Bolt, Skeledirge, Garganacl could take a hit if Tera goes. What are some other candidates?

There is something to be said of how Tera is a double edged sword. Where defensive Pokémon now have to be concerned about losing to another Mon in the team builder. For example let’s say that you pick Corviknight as the steel type you want on your team. It provides defog support, slow pivoting and it synergies well. Except now you have a steel type that is dead weight to Iron Moth, Charizard and Volcarona. You can’t Tera dragon to avoid getting KOed by them. Maybe not the best example. Let’s try something else.

Okay how about you pick Gliscor as your go to ground type that can both set Stealth Rock and clear it. You match up well enough against Raging Bolt, various fires and annoy Great Tusk. Except you now have a ground type that can’t really do a ton to opposing Corviknight, Waterpon, Moltres etc and is kind of a liability should rain go up. You can’t click Tera water to avoid some bad match ups.

Not saying this is enough to prevent Tera’s ban but it’s worth considering. How good will defensive Pokémon be in this power crept tier when there are so many threats running around?

how did you not guess it was AI?
Why do you want corv to win vs Bad MU instead of switching?
gliscor
how are defensive Pokés gon be? adapting. you need Tang to check waterpon bc it's broken, either you run Tangrowth either you give waterpon the big fat 5 on the survey instead of pressing Tera broken everything else fine.
anyways, just got reqs this early morning(~12h ago) in 61 games or sum, First reqs I get, first time I really want to do it, it hits just right. I got a lot better in the past months and congratulate myself for it. not arguing about Tera this time I have spoken my points

 

[Patar136]

how did you not guess it was AI?
Why do you want corv to win vs Bad MU instead of switching?
gliscor
how are defensive Pokés gon be? adapting. you need Tang to check waterpon bc it's broken, either you run Tangrowth either you give waterpon the big fat 5 on the survey instead of pressing Tera broken everything else fine.
anyways, just got reqs this early morning(~12h ago) in 61 games or sum, First reqs I get, first time I really want to do it, it hits just right. I got a lot better in the past months and congratulate myself for it. not arguing about Tera this time I have spoken my points

This is hilariously ironic. Back when I was bringing up the possibility of how Waterpon, a splashable OU Pokemon, can check Palafin pretty well I got so much shit and hostility thrown my way. Yet here you are saying that the way to beat Waterpon in a Tera less metagame is to use a Pokemon who is ranked as a C+ Pokemon at best. This is either short sighted on your end or just an elaborate troll post. Respect.

Anyway, yes I know that you have to build your team to account for multiple different type combinations. What I am more saying is how centralized will certain Pokemon become as they become more flexible while other Pokemon become less flexible? Hopefully less centralized but we'll just have to see.