Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Alternator]

Define a strictly objective framework for when moves can be edited, rather than banned wholescale, one that is compatible with general tiering policy. I presume any definition would limit this to freeze, in which case, what makes it so unique that we need to resume modifying the game rather than simply banning things?

Justify why freeze is intolerable and requires a move to be edited, while status effects like paralysis and confusion - both of which have moves with a 30% chance, much higher than freeze - are fine. Justify why Serene Grace + a 30% flinch chance move, which is more likely to land four flinches in a row than Ice Beam is to land a freeze, is acceptable while freeze is being modified out of the game.

These are the problems you'd need to overcome before any suggestion of modifying a status effect out of the game could even be considered.

Banning freeze moves would be unproblematic from a tiering policy standpoint, but has obvious practical effects in removing most Ice type moves (Frost Breath becomes the best special ice move, for starters) that makes if unviable.

 

[JackRG]

"We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.
Some exceptions exist, such Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause (RBY / GSC), but they are to be avoided as much as possible.
Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering proposals."

Pokemon is not a game balanced around competitive singles lol, this should be obvious but bans and clauses need to exist to create a balanced metagame. It should be as close to cartridge accurate as possible, but exceptions need to be made. No gen is perfectly cartridge accurate lol, and its for a good reason. Like bro you sound like verlisify, we shouldn't ignore everything else just to make the tier cartridge accurate lol

Freeze is really not a problem, the only very relevant freezers are Darkrai and Kyurem.

This is just objectively.....wrong? Theres also DoS, glowking, atales, gren, latios, tyranitar, manaphy, and thats just ice beam btw. Ice punch is also run as coverage on pokemon like physical ival, iron hands, okidogi, and ursaluna.

Saying those are the only two is just incredibly ignorant

We have autothaw moves

Lets see how the mons with autothaw moves match up into the freeze inducers:

Alo: cooked by freeze dry

Wake: Doubly cooked by freeze dry

Sinistcha: cooked by any ice move

Cinderace: probably the best autothaw user, but are you really gonna call this thing a switch in to a lot of these mons, especially darkrai and kyurem lol

Blaziken: I'm pretty sure this thing takes like over 50% from specs kyurem ice beam lmao

I might be missing something but these are the only ou viable mons with autothaw moves I saw lol

a few mons that can run ice tera

stuff like this makes me question why I'm wasting my time answering you.

while the odds of getting frozen are very low especially if your mon is slower because you get a roll to thaw immediately, freeze is not at all a problem even as someone who's very anti-rng.

I'm not going to say its common or anything, but 10% (especially when these moves are use multiple times a game) with only a 20% chance to thaw is a lot for something that instantly loses you the game

 

[Heatranator]

Pokemon is not a game balanced around competitive singles lol, this should be obvious but bans and clauses need to exist to create a balanced metagame.

There are very limited clauses in the game, and all of them are no brainers.
Species Clause: Something that is already in the in game, and even still some people have argued about removing it.
OHKO Clause: Basically just a ban on OHKO moves, and this one is so obvious.
Evasion Items/Moves Clause: Same as OHKO Clause in that its obvious why this is around
Endless Battles Clause: Yeah, uhh, self explanatory
HP Percentage Clause: Just some QOL improvements, and something you can replicate in game by using a ruler or smthing and approximating the HP ranges.
Sleep Moves Clause: Basically a sleep moves ban.
The only times we have used specific clauses are 1. Sleep Moves Clause, which we just got rid of because it didn't work in practice. and 2. Freeze Clause in some old gens, which was because in those gens, freeze was WAY worse then it is now. Gen 1 freeze you literally can never unthaw from, so it is actually an OHKO.

Freeze Clause is nowhere close to the other clauses listed, and the only one its close to is Old Gen Freeze Clause, which again, are way, way more destructive then modern freeze.

Lets see how the mons with autothaw moves match up into the freeze inducers:

Alo: cooked by freeze dry

Wake: Doubly cooked by freeze dry

Sinistcha: cooked by any ice move

Cinderace: probably the best autothaw user, but are you really gonna call this thing a switch in to a lot of these mons, especially darkrai and kyurem lol

Blaziken: I'm pretty sure this thing takes like over 50% from specs kyurem ice beam lmao

I might be missing something but these are the only ou viable mons with autothaw moves I saw lol

Most of these things seem to be from Kyurem, which honestly just shows this is you wanting for Kyurem to be banned because it can abuse freeze like nothing else.
Also, you missed Moltres, a really big mon.

I'm not going to say its common or anything, but 10% (especially when these moves are use multiple times a game) with only a 20% chance to thaw is a lot for something that instantly loses you the game

So should we ban critical hits? They can potentially lose you the game on the spot if you have an utimely one. Or what about para? That is another status condition that has a way higher payoff because it sticks around. Or what about flinching? I think we all know a certain waterfall gyarados moment...
But I think you get the point, pokemon is full of RNG. We accept that. But removing an entire mechanic, from what I could read, to nerf one, maybe two mons (every other mon that uses ice moves is nowhere close to being a problem due to freeze), isn't really good. You haven't really given any reasoning why we should change the status quo beyond "well, it potentially loses you the game" which can also be said for way more RNG mechanics.

 

[JackRG]

Most of these things seem to be from Kyurem, which honestly just shows this is you wanting for Kyurem to be banned because it can abuse freeze like nothing else.
Also, you missed Moltres, a really big mon.

wait what autothaw move does it get?

So should we ban critical hits? They can potentially lose you the game on the spot if you have an utimely one. Or what about para? That is another status condition that has a way higher payoff because it sticks around. Or what about flinching? I think we all know a certain waterfall gyarados moment...

I don't believe any of these things are anywhere near as bad as freeze. Sure these things could lose you a mon, but freeze is far worse as it turns you into free setup

You haven't really given any reasoning why we should change the status quo beyond "well, it potentially loses you the game" which can also be said for way more RNG mechanics.

Honestly, I could say the same here. I don't think I've heard a single argument outside of cartridge accuracy = good

 

[FayaWizard]

Arguing to disable the Freeze proc is the silliest thing I've seen in this thread, and that's saying a lot. Putting aside the fact that this is only truly relevant for one Pokemon (let's be honest to ourselves, the others aren't spamming Freeze nearly to the same extent), this is a BLATANT violation of the Tiering Policy, which explicitly states "We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.", and "Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering proposals.".

The only time a Freeze clause has been implemented was in RBY and GSC due to the much higher prevalance of Freeze in that generation due to the differing mechanics, and the same cannot be applied to here. And even then, the clause did not remove the chance of Freeze entirely, simply adding a limitation to the amount of Pokemon that can be frozen in the game.

Looking at its now defunct relative the Sleep Clause, this clause was only implemented due to the much, much higher reliability of sleep proc, and even then it was only implemented because Sleep Clause was part of a few official Pokemon games, albeit spinoffs (Stadium, Colosseum, XD). Freeze does not have the same reliability, with no moves able to inflict the Status itself like Sleep Powder or Spore, and the moves inflicting it as a secondary effect are either extremely low chance (10% on Ice Beam), or stuck on lower accuracy moves (Blizzard). Therefore, it is not nearly as prevalent to warrant a new Clause, and even if it did, it would be one similar to the Freeze Clause already in place for RBY and GSC, not a total removal of Freeze proc.

At the core, Smogon is a community dedicated to competitive Pokemon. Thus, we must limit the amount of deviance we have from the games themselves, only implementing clauses that are either harmless QOL, or ones that limit gamebreaking mechanics. Freeze does not fall into either of these categories, no matter how salty you get about Ice Beam freezing you.

 

[Heatranator]

wait what autothaw move does it get?

Flamethrower....

I don't believe any of these things are anywhere near as bad as freeze. Sure these things could lose you a mon, but freeze is far worse as it turns you into free setup

Okay, so where do we draw the line? Para can potentially give you free setup by removing the pokemon's ability to act. Heck, scald burn can give you free setup potentially because it cripples a physical attacker a lot.

Honestly, I could say the same here. I don't think I've heard a single argument outside of cartridge accuracy = good

The people who want to change the status quo do have to give reasoning. The people defending it don't really.

 

[JackRG]

Flamethrower....

Flamethrower doesn't unthaw you, only a certain category of moves do

 

[veti]

Flamethrower....

Scorching Sands is the autothaw move on Moltres

 

[Finchinator]

We ain’t touching freeze. Next topic

 

[CrispyFries]

To move the conversation to something else what do we think of Pecharunt? I don't have any high level replays on hand but it seems to be a pretty nice spinblocker with defensive utility from what I've seen of it. Not sure about NP sets since you'd probably do a lot of tera exhaustion with that just for the sake of coverage though

 

[BolTingBlazie]

We ain’t touching freeze. Next topic

Freeze clause is enough, cart accuracy is important to some degree when we are trying to simulate cart mechanics

 

[Conflux123]

lol so you're just going to shut down the convo without saying anything yourself? Great tier leader!

lol so you're going to post multiple one-liners about changing something on cart that isn't that big of a problem on only one mon and then complaining about a post from the tier leader telling you to be quiet because multiple people have already told you why its a bad idea? Great poster!

dude, its quite alarming that someone in power is just trying to silence a genuine concern regarding the metagame without weighing in himself

It's not "silencing", multiple people have already told you why it's not going to happen. Why would he weigh in himself when it has already been explained?

why do you think its finished? I still can't quite wrap my head around why cartridge accuracy is all that seems to matter to you when showdown isn't even cartridge accurate to begin with

What do you even mean by Showdown isn't even cart accurate lmao. And cart accuracy is important because it's competitive pokémon. If you modify it too much it isn't really pokémon anymore.

 

[JackRG]

lol so you're going to post multiple one-liners about changing something on cart that isn't that big of a problem on only one mon and then complaining about a post from the tier leader telling you to be quiet because multiple people have already told you why its a bad idea? Great poster!

dude, its quite alarming that someone in power is just trying to silence a genuine concern regarding the metagame without weighing in himself (especially since said person is responsible for monitoring the health of the metagame)

 

[Heatranator]

dude, its quite alarming that someone in power is just trying to silence a genuine concern regarding the metagame without weighing in himself

Dude, its quite alarming that someone is still trying to go on about an issue that isn't even that big of an issue after being told multiple times why it isn't a problem at all, and then when told to stop discussing it, complains about it.
Finch doesn't need to weigh in on the discussion, because the discussion is already finished.

 

[JackRG]

Dude, its quite alarming that someone is still trying to go on about an issue that isn't even that big of an issue after being told multiple times why it isn't a problem at all, and then when told to stop discussing it, complains about it.
Finch doesn't need to weigh in on the discussion, because the discussion is already finished.

why do you think its finished? I still can't quite wrap my head around why cartridge accuracy is all that seems to matter to you when showdown isn't even cartridge accurate to begin with

 

[Finchinator]

lol so you're just going to shut down the convo without saying anything yourself? Great tier leader!

I have already posted on this topic dozens of times, including both in this subforum, in editions of this thread, and in official PR topics.

I have posted thousands of times across this generation, more than any other council member or TL. This discussion was going nowhere. Not my fault you try and take every post I make and spin it to fit your dislike for me.

The useful life of the convo was clearly over, and it arguably never began. As a moderator, it had to be done.

 

[JackRG]

I have already posted on this topic dozens of times, including both in this subforum, in editions of this thread, and in official PR topics.

I have posted thousands of times across this generation, more than any other council member or TL. This discussion was going nowhere. Not my fault you try and take every post I make and spin it to fit your dislike for me.

The useful life of the convo was clearly over, and it arguably never began. As a moderator, it had to be done.

listen man, the only reason I post here is because I care about improving this metagame lol.

yet every question I ask here is bombarded with people just trying to change the convo instead of actually have an actual interaction with me

 

[Carl The Turtle]

This is just objectively.....wrong? Theres also DoS, glowking, atales, gren, latios, tyranitar, manaphy, and thats just ice beam btw. Ice punch is also run as coverage on pokemon like physical ival, iron hands, okidogi, and ursaluna.

hey notice the part where they said "very relevant"? that part was included because hands and ttar and greninja are incredibly niche in the tier at best, phys val, ursaluna, and okidogi often can't fit it or just don't run it, and manaphy and latios are both. A9T and Deo-S do not have the lasting power to fish for freezes often, and are generally relegated to their role of suicide leads that set up hazards/veil, with deo-s practically only running the move for gliscor. I will give you that Galarian Slowking does run the move nearly always on AV and sometimes on FSight and is meta-relevant, but realistically AVKing is primarily meant to chunk things with its moves instead of fishing. Sure, you could click IB into the Crown you switched in to tank, but why would you when Flamethrower chunks it into KO range? Why would you take a 10% chance to freeze enamorus when you can kill it outright with Sludge Bomb. I only sort-of understand GKing being a viable freeze fisher, and that's out of the mess of mons you've listed.

 

[Conflux123]

listen man, the only reason I post here is because I care about improving this metagame lol.

yet every question I ask here is bombarded with people just trying to change the convo instead of actually have an actual interaction with me

"Changing the topic instead of actually having an actual interaction with me":

Yeah

 

[Finchinator]

listen man, the only reason I post here is because I care about improving this metagame lol.

yet every question I ask here is bombarded with people just trying to change the convo instead of actually have an actual interaction with me

If this is your account of your interactions with this thread, then please lurk more.

 

[JackRG]

"Changing the topic instead of actually having an actual interaction with me":
View attachment 690842View attachment 690843View attachment 690844View attachment 690845View attachment 690846View attachment 690847
Yeah

I was talking specifically about finch.

If this is your account of your interactions with this thread, then please lurk more.

This is the reason I don't like you as a tier leader, you are so quick to silence anyone you disagree with, and I'm not "going to lurk more" because that would be doing exactly what you want (aka staying silent)

 

[Finchinator]

This is the reason I don't like you as a tier leader, you are so quick to silence anyone you disagree with, and I'm not "going to lurk more" because that would be doing exactly what you want (aka staying silent

I am not silencing you or anyone. I WANT people to disagree with me and push limits. I want the community to evolve, the game to evolve, and us to find new peaks as a collective.

This thread has brought up freeze a half dozen times this generations and each time it has been counterproductive, I have addressed it numerous times, and it was clear the nature of this discussion was any better.

It is so rich of you to say I of all people shut down criticism and want to silence people when all I have done as leader was allow for a survey system to give us feedback and cut down drastically on moderation to allow for threads like this to be more active. Go back to SM or even SS and look how less active, more moderated, and fewer topics were discussed in identical threads. It’s by design. Censorship has no place on here. Silencing people doesn’t either.

Perhaps take a look in the mirror at your own posts and interactions as outliers rather than trying to shame a volunteer for just doing his job. I am happy for you to disagree with or question any opinion or tiering discussion — we let the thread go for pages after certain bans and decisions despite it mostly being critical and I will continue to do that. Public opinion is necessary, but you having the gall to claim I am censoring you without taking a second to consider your own content and messaging is rude.

 

[Conflux123]

I was talking specifically about finch.

You are literally ignoring the fact that he has already told you he has answered this exact thing many times already.

 

[viivian]

lol so you're just going to shut down the convo without saying anything yourself? Great tier leader!

because banning freeze would be completely impractical and unnecessary. if it were anywhere near as common as paralysis or burn then i'd completely get it, but it's already so rare as is that banning it would hardly even matter. like if you're consistently and frequently losing games to freeze then you should probably log off showdown and go purchase a lottery ticket

 

[JackRG]

because banning freeze would be completely impractical and unnecessary. if it were anywhere near as common as paralysis or burn then i'd get it completely get it, but it's already so rare as is that banning it would hardly even matter. like if you're consistently and frequently losing games to freeze then you should probably log off showdown and go purchase a lottery ticket

I can get where you are coming from, but then again are ohko moves consistent? No, but they are banned cuz they are stupid lol