Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

I feel like any argument for unbanning a Pokemon should argue that the Pokemon fits within the power level of the tier. When people arguing for unbans go (like Magcargo's example) "well you'll have to Sleep" -> "If you unban other Pokemon (that are probably above the power level of the tier) then it'll definitely be fine".

Unbans should never actually shake up the status quo of the power level of the tier unless there is a justification for it. That post the other day just going "well Solgaleo will check this" is backwards logic, you're creating a new ring of interactions with Ubers Pokemon you're unbanning to create something that we have no reason to believe is better than the current tier.
 
I am really not sold on most of the unban proposals. They are just more tools for ho to play with while everything else has to stretch even further to cover.

Yes, magerna and palafin may help balance structures but they are not balance mons. Palafin is just bonkers. 650 bst, 160 attack and 100 speed with jet punch, which is a 60bp priority move. Imagine mega scizor bullet punch (not quite there, but not that far off), but it has an actually great offensive typing, not steel which totally sucks offensively. And it can be rain boosted. And it has drain punch to sustain and hit ferro, probably the most reliable rain answer in the tier(maybe sharing that spot with waterpon). And the drawback part of palafin’s ability is just a complete joke. Lead palafin, switch, done. Oh and banded wave crash from this beast is insane.

Now, magerna: maybe even more busted with its double dance stored power set. Add some amazing set variety on top of that and you have ban material. Also lets remember that tera dark clod is not available to check stored power, so stored power users are imo in a better spot than ever before. Also our lovely kingambit does nothing to magerna. And we are for some reason discussing unbanning the most busted 2 of them.
 
I do think Roaring Moon has some good checks in the tier already though I have heard Z sets were also problematic. I am biased and would love for it to be freed now that the premier DD mons have taken a back seat to Z Pult. But I don't have any memory of its relative power here. Also would be nice to have another mon that doesn't explode to Gambit or Ghold but I'm just not sure if it'd be too much for enabling HO slop we've just been freed of.
 
I can agree with this but I have honestly not seen Iron Valiant using Hypnosis. I have sometimes seen Xurkitree on low ladder but Iron Valiants I have seen have usually been Choice Specs, physical booster energy or maybe some mixed attacker variant. We ban Z-Hypnosis because it's uncompetitive. We could just ban Hypnosis and/or any sleep move that is 60% or less. Nobody is complaining about Sleep Powder Mega Venusaur. Or if they are, they are very quiet.

I was gonna do a more detailed post about potential drops but I'll do a short short SHORT version. If you want elaboration feel free to speak up. Otherwise, I'm gonna say Keep Banned, Test, Unban or No Opinion.

Unban: :Roaring Moon:, :Annihilape:,

Test: :Palafin:, :Deoxys Speed:, :Walking Wake:, :Magearna:,:Ursaluna-Bloodmoon:, :Landorus: (okay the last one may be pushing it a bit but I think it could be kind of fun to try it out.)

Keep Banned: :Darkrai:, :Sneasler:, :Gouging Fire:, :Espathra: :Lugia: :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: :Spectrier:

No Opinion :Baxcalibur:

If I didn't include it, it's an obvious do not unban. Like, :Shaymin-Sky: could be funny to test out but would probably be very stupid so I didn't include it. Seriously though, don't unban :Genesect:. That's a horrible idea. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise.
Hi Patar136,

Can I ask you to elaborate on your thoughts about Ogerpon-H. It loose a lot of sheer power with the tera ban, and it remains a fire type weak to hazards. Cinderace is also a fast physical fire type which can be set up with sword dance, and has a strong physical STAB but it can wear items.
Does the sword dance - trailblaze set is still broken whiteout tera ?

A +3 Tera Fire Ogerpon-H becomes a +2 Ogerpon-H so -40% damages.
 
Hi Patar136,

Can I ask you to elaborate on your thoughts about Ogerpon-H. It loose a lot of sheer power with the tera ban, and it remains a fire type weak to hazards. Cinderace is also a fast physical fire type which can be set up with sword dance, and has a strong physical STAB but it can wear items.
Does the sword dance - trailblaze set is still broken whiteout tera ?

A +3 Tera Fire Ogerpon-H becomes a +2 Ogerpon-H so -40% damages.
You greatly underestimate how strong a +2 Ogerpon-H is. Not only is it a fire type that doesn't need coverage for Heatran because of Mold Breaker (unlike Mega Charizard Y, who it outspeeds and OHKOes with just Ivy Cudgel, or Cinderace who struggles much more into Water-types like Toxapex or Alomomola), but it has the perfect movepool to compliment Grass/Fire. Play Rough snipes all the Dragons besides the ones that don't even resist Ivy Cudgel, and Rock Tomb hits Moltres and Dragonite for super effective too. This basically leaves Skeledirge as a reliable switch in, since Torkoal actively helps you with Sun, while any other defensive Fire-type usually folds to Rock Tomb or is generally unviable; and Skeledirge has its own issues versus Dragapult, Kingambit, Mega Tyranitar and Hisuian Samurott.

Yes, it also has Trailblaze if you don't care as much about coverage (such as on HO) just to out-offense everything and be basically unstoppable. All three of these make stopping Ogerpon-H significantly harder than it looks on paper, and restricts teambuilding a lot. And yes, it can ignore Unaware, so it's basically unbeatable for the average Stall team unless they use direct counters like Skeledirge.
 
You greatly underestimate how strong a +2 Ogerpon-H is. Not only is it a fire type that doesn't need coverage for Heatran because of Mold Breaker (unlike Mega Charizard Y, who it outspeeds and OHKOes with just Ivy Cudgel, or Cinderace who struggles much more into Water-types like Toxapex or Alomomola), but it has the perfect movepool to compliment Grass/Fire. Play Rough snipes all the Dragons besides the ones that don't even resist Ivy Cudgel, and Rock Tomb hits Moltres and Dragonite for super effective too. This basically leaves Skeledirge as a reliable switch in, since Torkoal actively helps you with Sun, while any other defensive Fire-type usually folds to Rock Tomb or is generally unviable; and Skeledirge has its own issues versus Dragapult, Kingambit, Mega Tyranitar and Hisuian Samurott.

Yes, it also has Trailblaze if you don't care as much about coverage (such as on HO) just to out-offense everything and be basically unstoppable. All three of these make stopping Ogerpon-H significantly harder than it looks on paper, and restricts teambuilding a lot. And yes, it can ignore Unaware, so it's basically unbeatable for the average Stall team unless they use direct counters like Skeledirge.
I completely admit on your analysis. You could add that the Heartflame mask give a 20% on his coverage moves, which makes him scarier for stall.
As all Ogerpons, in all tiers, it remains easy to revenge kill it with fast physical sweepers (cf iron valiant, roaring moon, dragapult, M-Lopunny, Zamazenta, Urshifu scarf, ...). As M-Charizards, its weakness to SR strongly limits its number of switch ins and enables much more physical sweepers to revenge kill.
So are we worrying that there are no defensive answers for Ogerpon-H ? Because it seems that the classic HO handle him well. And maybe few megas could come back in the meta (M-Pidgeotto, M-Pinsir, M-Latios, M-Charizard-X).

I highly value your experience of smogon meta games, so I hope you'll answer me.
 
Truthfully I don't really see Ogerpon-H being broken (or even better than Ogerpon-W which I personally wouldn't ban) given its Rocks weakness (making pivot sets viable compared to Ogerpon-W) & I think there are plenty of decent Pokemon one can use to check it such as Victini, Moltres, Cinderace, as well as a bunch of scarfers & speed control options like Samu-H, Landorus-T, Dragapult, Zamazenta, etc. That said, long-term defensive answers to it are limited I suppose & it probably is difficult to answer in conjunction with Ogerpon-W, so whatever, it can stay banned for now. Most of the shit you want it for can be accomplished by Victini and Ogerpon-W anyways.

I think the other unban targets are a bit easier to justify atm between providing the tier critical defensive utility (Magearna) or being easier to argue as not broken w/o Tera (Palafin, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon).
 
Wanna shout out Sami and Magcargo for speaking on my behalf as I agree with all their points. Thanks for the question blaaass. Good for discussion to consider these things.

Ogerpon-H is kind of unwallable and is too much of a buff to sun teams. Also unlike Cinderace, something like Scarf Landorus can’t take it out with earthquake thanks to that grass typing (nor can it switch in safely.) Waterpon is already obnoxious and arguably broken. Firepon is straight out.
 
Without tera firepon is entirely fine and would be a great addition to the metagame since we have a severe lack of mold breaker mons, first of all it requires a sd up along with choosing the correct coverage to be able to reasonably break most teams, its rocks weak in a gholdengo meta with no way to fix it and cant really switch in to many attacks at all, for it to get up an sd it needs to take significant chip which normally leaves it well within priority range from things like kingambit or dragonite. Basically we have a strong breaker but with more than enough drawbacks to make it manageable, most teams naturally pressure firepon right now and have faster offensive checks such as zama and dragapult to revenge kill and I think it would be a perfectly reasonable inclusion in the meta. Is it hard to wall without specific counterplay? Yes, but thats because its a wall breaker its supposed to be hard to wall thats the entire purpose, I feel the drawbacks from hazards and priority make it manageable in the metagame.
 
Truthfully I don't really see Ogerpon-H being broken (or even better than Ogerpon-W which I personally wouldn't ban) given its Rocks weakness (making pivot sets viable compared to Ogerpon-W) & I think there are plenty of decent Pokemon one can use to check it such as Victini, Moltres, Cinderace, as well as a bunch of scarfers & speed control options like Samu-H, Landorus-T, Dragapult, Zamazenta, etc. That said, long-term defensive answers to it are limited I suppose & it probably is difficult to answer in conjunction with Ogerpon-W, so whatever, it can stay banned for now. Most of the shit you want it for can be accomplished by Victini and Ogerpon-W anyways.

I think the other unban targets are a bit easier to justify atm between providing the tier critical defensive utility (Magearna) or being easier to argue as not broken w/o Tera (Palafin, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon).

Yeah, I'm also slightly disappointed Firepon was dismissed so soon. Unlike Waterpon, who provides real defensive utility, Firepon can't switch into basically anything while also taking 25% from rocks each time it comes in. The distinction from Gouging Fire is that it is a mon that generally wants to come in multiple times as it is a breaker, not a sweeper, so it is a greater limiting factor.

Furthermore, Waterpon's matchups against Zama and Raging Bolt are basically unchanged for Firepon. However, Firepon can probably fit Knock unlike Waterpon who really wants Superpower so Victini, Moltres, and Pult aren't really good defensive counterplay long-term.

Still, it's going to be a difficult mon to fit on teams, and imo it is sort of reminiscent of Kyurem, which is similarly close to unwallable on paper, but the hazard weakness/lack of opportunities really hurt it. Of course, I suppose the difference is that Kyurem can't OHKO much stuff and so just failing to 2HKO something like AV Gambit then eating a pursuit is enough to put it out of commission. It may not be the same for Firepon.

Yeah, the long-term defensive counterplay is kind of just not there, unlike Waterpon who has regen grasses and no mold breaker for Dnite. It's offense matchup seems considerably worse than Waterpon's, however. But this mon imo probably should be put on the survey after the primary unban targets in Moon, Palafin, and Magearna are dealt with (we don't talk about Espathra I guess), especially if Gouging Fire is somehow freed.
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On another note, I've been testing out various Palafin sets in friendlies (Band, BU Drain Punch, BU + Z) against competent players running pre-Palafin teams (thus not specifically built for Palafin), where its performance has been less than stellar. It's a small sample size for now, but I think Palafin genuinely has a chance of being unbanned. I may make a longer post on this mon later, but this mon, along with Roaring Moon, are the two I strongly believe should be freed.
 
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Do you think Palafin will be used with special attacks like Boomburst?
Unless your sole desire is to bluff a counter or check, then I doubt it. Mostly because it (to my knowledge) doesn't gain that much from using special moves. Like Moisture mentioned, Grassium Z Grass Knot sounds pretty usable as a bluff for Waters, but how much it gets used we'd have to see
 
I'm gonna pop into the midst of all this potential unban conversation (Roaring Moon first plz) with a couple of sets that I've been enjoying in this meta.

:sv/dragapult:
Dragapult @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hex
- Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave
- U-turn

Dragapult's Hex set with Boots is a great set, don't get me wrong, but my personal favorite has been the variant posted above instead. Having the instant nuke of Dragonium Z is super helpful to exert immediate offensive pressure from a set that otherwise doesn't hit all that hard from the get go and has to split EVs should it choose to run Dragon Darts as its Dragon STAB. Most of the classic Dragapult switch ins also hate being burned, so you can threaten a WispHex set before nuking the midground that people might try to sponge a status condition with, and even if they do go hard Mega TTar or Kingambit or something they take significant damage, especially if there are hazards on the field. The loss of boots impacts your longevity but its worth the trade off for a lot of teams. Twave works over wisp on ParaSpam teams and is cool with Melmetal in particular but is worse overall.

:sv/great tusk:
Great Tusk @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Ice Spinner
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin

This one is pretty straightforward honestly; a lot of teams are using Zapdos or Moltres to check Great Tusk and try and force status on it. With Stone Edge this completely backfires as both take a ton from Edge, letting you spin to your hearts content later (as long as you break Gholdengo's Air Balloon as well) Meanwhile, I don't view Great Tusk's Fighting-STAB as super necessary. It's obviously useful but most things that you click CC into are forced out anyway and most are appreciably chunked by Headlong Rush. With Rocky Helmet you can make progress even into faster builds as well. It's mostly just standard Tusk but Stone Edge is a very nice option for it right now.

:sv/nidoking:
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / Stealth Rock / Superpower

Well, balance and bulky offense are beginning to return, and if you do have a balance team in your builder, have a look and ask yourself how it plays around a well played Nidoking. Chances are it does not like seeing Nidoking at all. Bro absolutely destroys a lot of common balance builds right now; the current cores that rely on Moltres, Galarian Slowking, AV Gambit, and Toxapex to act as their specially defensive sponges are just simply not prepared to switch into this. Last slot could be a lot, TBolt pressures Alomomola and Moltres, Flamethrower hits MSciz, Ferro, Balloon Gholdie, while both hit Skarm and Corviknight (if they still exist). It can also set Rocks if you really need a Rocker but its not very good at it. Superpower is a Blissey cteam that also hits Mega TTar and AV Gambit a little harder but truth be told you should probably be running one of the first two options. Cool mon though, don't sleep on him.
 
Speaking of “kings” I’m gonna shout out my king.

:sv/kingdra:
Ability: Swift Swim
Item: Choice Specs/Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Weather Ball/Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Flip Turn/Hurricane

My king of all dragons can be a nasty surprise to face down a lot of the unsuspecting teams flying about. When paired with some good partners in Tapu Lele, Mega Swampert, I’ve also tried Barraskewda for some funny shenanigans, and Archaludon I’ve managed to get my Johto veteran to work since surprise surprise, the opponent not being able to randomly tera water can be a benefit. Hurricane is an option to smack Waterpon on the switch without locking into Draco Meteor and also doubles as allowing to hit Mega Venusaur which has been popping up and Shedinja (as stupid as it is.) A gimmick through and through but one that I will always hold dear. I’ve also tried dragon dance on Kingdra to act as a sort of Barraskewda that can set up and it works surprisingly well. They’ll send in a Blissey or a Clodsire or Waterpon and think I am useless and then at +1 I outspeed almost everything and force them back out or just wipe them out with physical STAB. Timid nature allows Kingdra to outspeed Iron Valiant with a speed boost and various other booster energy mons. It’s been fun.
 
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Hi there, its time i write another post of mons i have discovered in the past few days.
:sm/nidoking:
Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
Straight menace.Always was a fan of Nido, but with how broken the tera meta was, there was hardly any space for the lil guy.Now its time to rise.Much like Sputnik , i think Nidoking is in a perfect rn since the meta is shifting towards slower, bulkier balances, which Nidoking can take great advantage of.Dengo, Gambit and Melmetal absolutely CANNOT take any earth powers from nido, lando and glisc die to ice beam, pult hates switching into ep/ice beam, mola and moltres get chuncked like crazy by t bolt, and sludge wave hits very hard even on neutral targets.I preffer tbolt, but flamethrower is also a nice option, as u can drop ferro in an instant, but i like t bolt more, since mola is one of the most used mons in the tier rn.

:SM/BUZZWOLE:

Buzzwole @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Beast Boost
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Bulk Up
- Roost

I bet most of you forgot this dude even existed.Just like 90% of the mons, couldn't really shine in the tera envioroment.However, with how the meta is looking rn, buzzwole is on top of the food chain imo.Gambit is buzz's dinner, z pult gets walled, zama will eventually kill itself from the rocky helmet damage, lando hates taking chip whenever it u turns, lop cannot touch this thing, just to name a few.Pair this with a spdef moltres and you got yourself a core that eats up like ladder like its the main course.Buzz does have some big counters tho.Slowking just pivots on you endleslly, kanto birds absolutely wall you and dengo is also annoying.You can slot eq>bulk up for dengo and glowking, but i preffer bulk up, as it lets me have a clean buzzwole endgame once all of their special attackers are gone.
 
With it officially being December and we now have access to the first round of usage stats, it'd be interesting to look at a few things. Granted we only have about 11-12 days worth of usage for the freed mons, so it's not exactly a great representation of things but I think you could still extrapolate from it a bit.

| 21 | Kingambit | 7.712% |
| 28 | Dragapult | 6.322% |
| 42 | Gholdengo | 4.526% |
| 50 | Terapagos | 4.150% |
| 53 | Melmetal | 3.651% |
| 63 | Zamazenta | 2.767% |

These are the notable Pokemon that were returned to NDOU with the ban, and it's fair to say that it may be too soon to fully claim anything outright, but I think these look positive for a few reasons. First, it's nice that despite being strong options none of them saw a crazy amount of play out of the gate. Gambit saw the most but the most common sets are Pursuit, not the SD that broke it before and is now a set that while good, has more hurdles to work through. Pult despite being the most arguably contentious drop, didn't explode either in usage and if you've played a fair bit, you'll know that despite the power of DD+Z, we're all seeing a lot of Status+Pivot sets which to me suggests that DD+Z isn't so good that you NEED to run it. Gholdengo is great, but it's neither overwhelming vs balance anymore nor has it felt too suffocating as a hazard removal blocker and just feels very positive a presence. Similarly, Melmetal and Terapagos have felt like nice stabilizing presences for teambuilding with the former's versatility and resilient nature and the latter being a strong anti-offense tool as well as a great spinner. Lastly Zamazenta is still really good, and one of the mons you must still respect a lot in the builder but it feels very balanced compared to before.

Beyond these, we've started seeing more exploration of mons you didn't see much of before like Mega Venu, Ting-Lu and Slowbro. Bulky Offense and Balance have started to reemerge and we're seeing a lot of different builds pop up which to me is a great sign. It feels a lot more varied and interesting, and most importantly fun, which I love. I'm really looking forward to seeing how December shakes out as far as usage goes, and what stuff will rise and fall!

Now on to some random thoughts

Sprslmsh0748.gif

Toxapex @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Bold Nature
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 48 SpD
- Scald
- Recover / Knock Off
- Haze / Toxic / Knock Off
- Toxic Spikes / Baneful Bunker

With Balance making a comeback (Woohoo!!!), Pex has felt better than ever. Runo talked about it briefly in the Personal VR thread here but Toxic Spikes are really potent with the decrease in fellow Poisons (though still viable!) like Glowking and Iron Moth. Playing a lot vs this mon, they always end up causing some kind of trouble if not played around well and with Pex's natural resilience and longevity, it's good at getting them up multiple times. I've seen some drop Recover for more utility, and I've even personally come around to the idea of Baneful Bunker as another slot option, since it so nicely punishes a lot of the common physical attackers such as Tusk, Moltres and Lando-T clicking U-Turn, Samurott-H attempting to stack spikes, even punishing U-Turn versions of Koko with a bit of good play. It's even useful to put Mega Medicham on a timer.

slowbro-gif.299383

Slowbro @ Colbur Berry / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic Noise / Future Sight
- Scald / Body Press
- Teleport
- Slack Off / Thunder Wave / Trick Room

Despite the presence of Kingambit and Mega Tyranitar, this mon feels alright and offers some unique building tools that I feel we haven't gotten to properly play during the Tera meta. It's the bulky water I've played with the most since the Tera ban and I think it's got quite a few good options. Psychic Noise shits on Gliscor attempting to sit on you as well as Ferrothorn, Gholdengo switching in, though I think Future Sight still has merit especially alongside Colbur Berry to pair with strong fighters. I've come across a few Body Press variants with Colbur to dunk on MTtar and Gambit, and of course TWave is a nice option for speed control. I personally have fooled around with a variant running Trick Room as sort of a panic button vs certain boosters (Wellspring being the main one) but it's much more specific. Overall cool mon I think.

images

Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Adamant Nature
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 244 HP / 24 Atk / 156 SpD / 84 Spe
- Thunder Punch / Wild Charge / Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Substitute

This one is pretty experimental but I wanted to try Substitute over Swords Dance as a way of exploiting the steels and dark types that Hands typically forces out (also exploiting the fat waters like Mola and Pex too) for opportunities to hammer things. It's quite effective at luring in and beating or greatly weakening the common grounds too. OHKOs bulkless Garchomp with just SR up, greatly weakens offensive Landorus-T while comfortably carving off 45% to maxdef variants (bolstered even better by SR). Headlong Rush variants of non BU Great Tusk are forced to break the sub letting Hands rack up a lot of easy chip (44% minimium to max HP variants after the defense drop of HR). Other typical non Hands ground switch ins like Lele expecting a fighting move or Koko in general, have to break the sub so it can push damage on both nicely (even feeding off Koko's terrain for more power) while flyers like Tornadus-T and Zapdos straight struggle to pressure this (Zap not even being able to static it).

The main struggle points for this set are bulky Gholdengo and Infiltrator Dragapult variants, but at least vs Ghold you can fish for Thunder Punch para. Option to drop Elec stab to SD if you want a fun wincon vs bulkier teams that can't touch it easily (dunks on Mola reliant teams well this way).

---

Said it before and I'll say it again. This meta has easily been the most fun I've had playing this tier in a long time and I hope you all are having a good time too.
 
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Here I came with a checklist for the returning pokemon: (Quick note: the :woop: in the list are meant to represent the pokemon's rankings, not that wooper itself can check these mons, as goofy as that might sound)

Hopefully with these sets, you should be able to improve your te... oh wait, I forgot someone? oh... ok, sure, here:

(Yes, I also forgot eleki, but i feel like eleki is pretty straightfoward, any bulky ground and youre good).
Keeping it brief this time around, hopefully you guys find these useful.
 
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View attachment 692666
Here I came with a checklist for the returning pokemon: (Quick note: the :woop: in the list are meant to represent the pokemon's rankings, not that wooper itself can check these mons, as goofy as that might sound)

Hopefully with these sets, you should be able to improve your te... oh wait, I forgot someone? oh... ok, sure, here:

(Yes, I also forgot eleki, but i feel like eleki is pretty straightfoward, any bulky ground and youre good).
Keeping it brief this time around, hopefully you guys find these useful.
These checklists are good but I wanna add some more:

Terapagos is the Offense Killer forcing trades, so these two actually kill it 1v1 for you. Fake Out Mega Medicham, simply by just getting rid of the ability and letting you CC it to death. If it gets a Spin off at some point this is less reliable, but you can take one hit if you really need to switch in. I wouldn't say it's something you plop on the team and say Terapagos is never going to be a problem, but it's very efficient at just killing it under pretty reasonable conditions.

By virtue of having basically the same set be viable, Mega Lopunny can do the same thing as an offensive check.

Zamazenta is just as checked by Zapdos as it is Moltres, if anything it's a better check since Stone Edge is 4x on Moltres of course, and even if Boots get knocked it's doing the job, The speed is really the source of a lot of Zamas power so paralysis is just as good if not a tiny bit worse at debilitating it.

Specs Dragapult is also checked by Calm Clefable, which isn't seen as much in metagames with the legendaries everywhere, but is viable (and more viable than Mandibuzz, frankly).

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or even Bold Clefable if you really wanna cut it close:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

DD Dragapult is checked by a bulky Melmetal, if it packs Fire Blast it has to use it on the switch (ie. it's not able to DD):

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 325-384 (68.5 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 226-266 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 270-318 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (tweak EVs to your liking of margin of error to kill, your bulk doesn't need to be extremely invested to win)

TankChomp can be an emergency check with Dragon Tail to IDef Zama if you need:

+3 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garchomp: 204-241 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Urshifu Water isn't listed in the Gambit checks but it's one of the best offensive checks typing wise, and that remains true:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 192-227 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Just make sure that if you want your Urshifu to switch in, make sure it isn't a set that cares about item lol

Now that Tera is out of the way, we don't need to bring as specific of checks to everything. Rejoice, and get resourceful!
 
Wanna mention that Ursaluna is a pretty solid check to Dragapult with DD since it is bulky enough to survive a +1 Dragon Darts and will KO Dragapult back easily. More of an offensive check than a defensive one but worth mentioning. Also hilarious to see Wigglytuff getting mentioned in OU simply because it has the type combination to defeat Dragapult reliably. Still a terrible Pokemon but very funny. I would rather go with Mega Audino since Regenerator on the base form is more useful though I suppose Competitive can be neat against Landorus-Therian in a vacuum.
 
while we're on the subject of unbans i might as well weigh in since this seems to be where i'm making my home for now: unlike sv ou, i'm actually willing to test things in this meta. the tera ban's a massive shake-up, basically a full reset of the meta as we knew it, and a lot of things deserve a fair shot. i'm not a fan of the "what does this add" mindset when considering whether to retest something—my opposition to retesting things has always historically been because of brokenness, and this is such a big change to a tier so big and complex that it's difficult to predict what will and won't be broken in this new environment

that being said, i don't think we should retest espathra or darkrai. espathra is a dumb mon that takes extremely little effort to set up a stupid amount of boosts with and has very limited counterplay, and i fear darkrai is going to end up doing uncompetitive sleep-setup-and-win bullshit with z-hypnosis. it should be noted that espathra also has hypnosis and can use that to snag some cheap free turns. if you have your doubts about hypnosis becoming relevant on either mon, you're free to ignore me, but just remember what happened in sv ou when i gave the same warning about darkrai—everyone laughed, and then a couple months later an entire status condition was gone. long story short, i am very much not a fan of uncompetitive sleep shenanigans or whatever setup bullshit espathra's going to end up doing and i would much prefer we focus elsewhere

as for exactly where elsewhere:
  • :roaring moon::palafin: these should be our first two tests. i'm not really convinced either way whether roaring moon or palafin would be broken in the current environment. a lot of stuff has changed even without tera's involvement between palafin's extremely quick quickban and now (though not enough for me to support a retest if tera had stayed), and frankly i don't know enough about roaring moon in this tier to make a solid judgement so i'd support a test for just more information if anything. palafin's test should definitely happen first because a roaring moon retest did happen a matter of months ago already
  • :magearna::gouging fire: these two are acceptable to test but i think they would end up being just a smidge too strong. they should be medium-to-low-priority tests, and gouging should definitely take precedence over magearna because a lot more of the shit it was pulling involved tera
  • :ogerpon-hearthflame::annihilape::sneasler: i think these three would still end up broken and should be extremely low priority if they're tested at all. firepon doesn't have the cracked tera form anymore but i never really bought into that being the whole issue with her; annihilape just does the same dumb cheese with rage fist; sneasler just does the same dumb cheese with unburden
now of course you can take all this with a grain of salt because i'm still kinda newish to natdex and not the most familiar with the history of the meta or the roles these banned things took in it, but i'd just like to get my opinion out there before things start kicking into high gear

edit: oh yeah i completely forgot about deoxys-speed. i think that should be tested after the first batch but before the second because i'm definitely not convinced it's broken but it does risk being intolerable in a natdex environment
 
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now of course you can take all this with a grain of salt because i'm still kinda newish to natdex and not the most familiar with the history of the meta or the roles these banned things took in it, but i'd just like to get my opinion out there before things start kicking into high gear
First of all, welcome to National Dex if you have not been welcomed already. I still remember when I first joined this metagame back in the chaotic early days of Flutter Mane. Whatever can be said now, I think we can all agree that we have come a long way from then.

I can appreciate that you approach the metagame from the lens of whether things are "broken" or not. Usually that is where a lot of people fall at the end of the day and I do largely agree a lot of the time. That said, I am gonna say that I for the most part fall under the category of "does this add anything" when it comes to bans and unbans. The reason I uphold this mentality now is that banning tera has helped me come around to appreciating National Dex as this metagame where a lot of diverse team options are possible. I've seen and tried it all. Rather than making the game less diverse, which I feel some people strangely wanted as one of the most common arguments was "it's too hard to prepare for all these threats", the game feels more diverse as a lot of Pokemon are viable from very solid playstyles and reliable Pokemon to more experimental playstyles with underrated threats.

I definitely agree with testing :Roaring Moon: and :Palafin: as both Pokemon in my eyes add something good to the tier. They add qualities that are useful (both are excellent wallbreakers that can abuse a respective weather condition, both have the moves and utility to contribute to a variety of teams and both are still checked by common playstyles and strategies.) It's possible that either could end up staying banned but testing these two seems like a solid starting point. Like you said, we have a sort of fresh slate to start over with and we should capitalize on it.

I agree with the other ideas you have suggested though I differ when it comes to :Annihilape:. Annihilape can indeed be powerful but it also adds a solid ghost type that can actually fight Kingambit more reliably than the others thanks to Drain Punch. I think that dynamic would be very fun since Annihilape still can't exactly switch in reliably and its typing is still flawed. Furthermore, because it can't escape it's typing I see it as a lot easier to deal with. This is compounded by its solid but not great speed tier, meaning it's not that fast without a choice scarf nor does it have flawless bulk. I also like the idea of having a good way of punishing pivot moves and making your opponent have to think a bit beforehand, especially U-turn. Worst case scenario, we could always ban Rage Fist since absolutely nobody uses Primeape and this would kill any arguments against this thing easily.

Just wanted to reply since I like this discourse. It helps people determine what they want and don't want.
 
First of all, welcome to National Dex if you have not been welcomed already. I still remember when I first joined this metagame back in the chaotic early days of Flutter Mane. Whatever can be said now, I think we can all agree that we have come a long way from then.

I can appreciate that you approach the metagame from the lens of whether things are "broken" or not. Usually that is where a lot of people fall at the end of the day and I do largely agree a lot of the time. That said, I am gonna say that I for the most part fall under the category of "does this add anything" when it comes to bans and unbans. The reason I uphold this mentality now is that banning tera has helped me come around to appreciating National Dex as this metagame where a lot of diverse team options are possible. I've seen and tried it all. Rather than making the game less diverse, which I feel some people strangely wanted as one of the most common arguments was "it's too hard to prepare for all these threats", the game feels more diverse as a lot of Pokemon are viable from very solid playstyles and reliable Pokemon to more experimental playstyles with underrated threats.

I definitely agree with testing :Roaring Moon: and :Palafin: as both Pokemon in my eyes add something good to the tier. They add qualities that are useful (both are excellent wallbreakers that can abuse a respective weather condition, both have the moves and utility to contribute to a variety of teams and both are still checked by common playstyles and strategies.) It's possible that either could end up staying banned but testing these two seems like a solid starting point. Like you said, we have a sort of fresh slate to start over with and we should capitalize on it.

I agree with the other ideas you have suggested though I differ when it comes to :Annihilape:. Annihilape can indeed be powerful but it also adds a solid ghost type that can actually fight Kingambit more reliably than the others thanks to Drain Punch. I think that dynamic would be very fun since Annihilape still can't exactly switch in reliably and its typing is still flawed. Furthermore, because it can't escape it's typing I see it as a lot easier to deal with. This is compounded by its solid but not great speed tier, meaning it's not that fast without a choice scarf nor does it have flawless bulk. I also like the idea of having a good way of punishing pivot moves and making your opponent have to think a bit beforehand, especially U-turn. Worst case scenario, we could always ban Rage Fist since absolutely nobody uses Primeape and this would kill any arguments against this thing easily.

Just wanted to reply since I like this discourse. It helps people determine what they want and don't want.
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Bleakwind Storm vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 182-216 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 312-368 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape in Psychic Terrain: 296-350 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 152-180 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 254-300 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are all mons that look like they beat it on paper
the bulk is really insane, especially if u run resto chesto. i think bro is broken unfortunately
 
Well shit, I gotta give it to Moisture99 on this one and take the L. Here I was thinking Annihilape would invest in its attack stat and speed only to instead just invest in bulk. I think what needs to be done is to simply ban Rage Fist. Without Rage Fist it would have to use Shadow Claw or Phantom Force. Do this, and the rest of my point stands. We did ban Last Respects so we have precedence for this.
 
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