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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
(Especially after the triumphant masterpiece that is the RSE version.)
I got into Pokemon as an adult in late December of 2022. Despite not having nostalgia for the earlier entries in the series, I view Gens 2-5 as being the peak of Pokemon.
Of those generations, I’ve played through at least 1 version from every mainline game, aside from HG/SS, which I’m beyond excited to play as I loved Crystal. I just finished W2 and am playing through the postgame.
RSE and DPP are my least favorite games of those 4 generations, noticeably so. I’ve played Ruby, Emerald, and Platinum (also BDSP, but more on that later).
In both generations, moreso Gen 4, I don’t like the mon designs compared to 1, 2, and 5, and I don’t enjoy playing as them. I do like Gen 3’s psuedos, but you don’t get Salamence or Metagross until the game’s practically over. I feel like the gimmick Pokemon are cool in theory, but Shedinja is annoying to use unless you look up the opponent’s moveset, and Slaking is boring.
In Gen 4 I feel like you’re almost forced to use a certain team: I’m not too big on Staravia or Shinx, meh on Lucario and the ghost balloon guy, although I do love Garchomp, Rotom, and a few others.
Having a bunch of new evolutions for older mons is cool, but half of them feel hidden behind some convoluted method of acquiring or a trade evolution I can’t do until I buy another DS. And then a ton more are hidden behind Honey Trees which I find annoying.
I will say Gen 3 has a lot of really fun strategies and teams amongst their gym leaders and Elite 4, but when mon selection is so bad, I feel like I’m given a wet spoon. Ruby was one of my first games to play through, and it was the only one I struggled on the Elite 4. I was underleveled despite using the same team most of the game, which is the only time that had happened. I hadn’t picked good teammates, but still. Training was annoying when both of the main mons in Victory Road tried to run away from you. And yeah, there is too much water. I love having to go from place to place and fighting level 23 pokemon with my level 40 squad literally the whole time I’m traveling. Diving isn’t rewarding either because all the pokemon down there were mid.
I’ll make a more positive post soon because i do love pokemon lol.
Of those generations, I’ve played through at least 1 version from every mainline game, aside from HG/SS, which I’m beyond excited to play as I loved Crystal. I just finished W2 and am playing through the postgame.
RSE and DPP are my least favorite games of those 4 generations, noticeably so. I’ve played Ruby, Emerald, and Platinum (also BDSP, but more on that later).
In both generations, moreso Gen 4, I don’t like the mon designs compared to 1, 2, and 5, and I don’t enjoy playing as them. I do like Gen 3’s psuedos, but you don’t get Salamence or Metagross until the game’s practically over. I feel like the gimmick Pokemon are cool in theory, but Shedinja is annoying to use unless you look up the opponent’s moveset, and Slaking is boring.
In Gen 4 I feel like you’re almost forced to use a certain team: I’m not too big on Staravia or Shinx, meh on Lucario and the ghost balloon guy, although I do love Garchomp, Rotom, and a few others.
Having a bunch of new evolutions for older mons is cool, but half of them feel hidden behind some convoluted method of acquiring or a trade evolution I can’t do until I buy another DS. And then a ton more are hidden behind Honey Trees which I find annoying.
I will say Gen 3 has a lot of really fun strategies and teams amongst their gym leaders and Elite 4, but when mon selection is so bad, I feel like I’m given a wet spoon. Ruby was one of my first games to play through, and it was the only one I struggled on the Elite 4. I was underleveled despite using the same team most of the game, which is the only time that had happened. I hadn’t picked good teammates, but still. Training was annoying when both of the main mons in Victory Road tried to run away from you. And yeah, there is too much water. I love having to go from place to place and fighting level 23 pokemon with my level 40 squad literally the whole time I’m traveling. Diving isn’t rewarding either because all the pokemon down there were mid.
I’ll make a more positive post soon because i do love pokemon lol.
Was thinking about giving the Perish Song team I've been using in the Battle Frontier/Subway another go and something occurred to me: with how widespread sound-based moves are, and the fact that an ability-based immunity exists for them, it's curious that in nine generations no held item has ever provided the same function (Insulating Headphones, perhaps)
It'd be a pretty niche item, granted, but recent gens introduced a whole bunch of held items which are no less niche/situational: Float Stone, Ring Target, Luminous Moss, Snowball, Ability Shield...
It'd be a pretty niche item, granted, but recent gens introduced a whole bunch of held items which are no less niche/situational: Float Stone, Ring Target, Luminous Moss, Snowball, Ability Shield...
I think that’s interesting. After thinking about it, one theory I have is that Sound has always been an option for a new typing and they don’t want to provide an item that would make a pokemon permanently invincible to it.
While there are abilities which provide immunities to damage from a specific type, the closest in items is Balloon for ground which is a direct result of ground having Earthquake which is such a scary move. Which happens to be a spread move with no drawbacks to the user, AND ground types often get a good rock attack for flying types.
I’m thinking of assembling a perish song team as well. In gen 5, do the AI switch out pokemon that are going to faint? Should I use shadow tag Wobbuffet?
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I think Magikarp being in every dex is kinda annoying, and I think more than most Kanto mons it itself is just annoying to see.
It alone makes like every fishing mechanic in every generation less fun to use and yet we gotta have it every time.
And on a personal front I just think it's an ugly design, probably on purpose, so always seeing it is not fun. Even the shiny I think is pretty ugly and when they do events where you get free shiny Magikarps I'm like "Wow, this is worthless."
It alone makes like every fishing mechanic in every generation less fun to use and yet we gotta have it every time.
And on a personal front I just think it's an ugly design, probably on purpose, so always seeing it is not fun. Even the shiny I think is pretty ugly and when they do events where you get free shiny Magikarps I'm like "Wow, this is worthless."
They need to make more cool Pokemon for us to fish!! I like Lanturn, Milotic, and Kingdra, as well, but only Lanturn is easily available in all games. Although by Gen 5 it was easier to acquire the latter two I think
First question: yes, in pretty much every generation they typically switch out on the last possible turn if they can. In a double battle, if both Pokemon are affected and both backups are active, they will switch both Pokemon at once.
Second question: depends on the rest of your team really. If you're interested, you can read about the Perish Song teams I used here (for Gen III's Frontier, and also used to great success in XD's Orre Colosseum) and here (for Gen V's Battle Subway).
I’ve always had a soft spot for Perish Trap. On my second play through on FRLG I had wanted to train up my underleveled Lapras and Dugtrio on Sabrina’s gym. I wasn’t doing enough damage, but then I realized I could Perish Trap with Lapras, then switch in with Dugtrio. The opponent would be unable to escape, and I could then use Dig to burn turns.
I started playing VGC bc of Perish Trap, and even made my own team. I had no idea what I was doing, and the team was built using very unconventional mons, but I learned a lot about the basics of strategy, because I had a defined structure + wincon, and was able to win 40% of my games at a low ELO.
I really like the strategies you showed me, and I look forward to trying out the teams, as well as my own variations. I tend to try to build my own for doubles, which I’m getting better at, but often means not only do I have to learn how to improve my literal play, but I’m playing with a suboptimal lineup. The advantage is I am able to improve at both and one day hope to be more original and better at teambuilding than my peers, and experience satisfaction when I find a structure that works.
I’ve been playing around with slightly similar things. Using a lot of Gyarados: I wanted to include a flying move to take advantage of STAB, but felt like Bounce’s imperfect accuracy made it risky, especially with it being two turns, which felt too slow offensively for my team structures. I also like the idea of misdirection, although I tended to have more dedicated support mons in that role ie Amoonguss. TYSM, I look forward to trying it.
Am I washed or is Soul Silver one of the hardest earlier gens? Crystal? I didn’t have a problem with. Curb stomped Whitney so hard I’m surprised Drake didn’t mention it. The only tough battle I remember from Johto was Claire and Lance a little bit.
White 2? I could almost have done a Nuzlocke. I fainted probably 12 times across all important matches before the Champion. And that was with zero prep aside from what I remembered from White.
Soul Silver? I wiped two times to Bugsy and two times to Morty. Admittedly, I’m not using items and have been a little bit underleveled, but still!! I haven’t had this much trouble with a vanilla run since I started playing Pokemon.
With Bugsy, even at full strength, Quilava was taking 3-4 hits to KO Scyther, and couldn’t avoid enough crits in between healing. And everything else got OHKOed by U-Turn.
With Morty, I didn’t have the best luck against Hypnosis until my last fight, but I couldn’t really touch Gengar. When it’s outspeeding everything and doing > 50% each shadow ball, I end up overwhelmed when no one on my team can do enough damage to overcome healing + sitrus berry.
Sure, I could have pp-stalled him with a normal type, but this isn’t a Nuzlocke, and I’m not trying to cheese my way through everything. I haven’t had super suboptimal typing either.
White 2? I could almost have done a Nuzlocke. I fainted probably 12 times across all important matches before the Champion. And that was with zero prep aside from what I remembered from White.
Soul Silver? I wiped two times to Bugsy and two times to Morty. Admittedly, I’m not using items and have been a little bit underleveled, but still!! I haven’t had this much trouble with a vanilla run since I started playing Pokemon.
With Bugsy, even at full strength, Quilava was taking 3-4 hits to KO Scyther, and couldn’t avoid enough crits in between healing. And everything else got OHKOed by U-Turn.
With Morty, I didn’t have the best luck against Hypnosis until my last fight, but I couldn’t really touch Gengar. When it’s outspeeding everything and doing > 50% each shadow ball, I end up overwhelmed when no one on my team can do enough damage to overcome healing + sitrus berry.
Sure, I could have pp-stalled him with a normal type, but this isn’t a Nuzlocke, and I’m not trying to cheese my way through everything. I haven’t had super suboptimal typing either.
Nah, HGSS is a pretty easy early gen. Even by vanilla pokemon standards. Only btfod in easiness by RBY for a variety of reasons. Crappy trainer AI, level up learnsets on every boss.
Not to mention you supermog the AI with all the Stat EXP you get.
HGSS's peak difficulty is in the early game and even then:
Bugsy's scyther is scary, I'll give you that if you don't want to use geodude. The alternative is the rock Tomb tm in union cave so you can hit him with that and BUGS SQUASHED
Whitney's miltank: same problem. Also countered by the dude, but you have more options. Take a fighting mon can be the get out of jail free card, or use rock Tomb again! Using it on miltank is actually really effective since if you spam it enough your other mons can be able to outspeed and finish the cow off. Just any pokemon with a high defense does the trick. Most players use their starter+flaafy+some others, which doesn't really pan out.
And for morty, I wouldn't call using a normal type cheating. You're using type advantages to your advantage so nothings stopping you from pivoting to a sentret to tank shadow balls.
Eh, what I'm tryna say is pokemon becomes easier the more you explore it's avenues.
Besides, after morty, the entire johto league just folds in half because GF decided to not have a single enemy pokemon levelled past 30.
Not to mention you supermog the AI with all the Stat EXP you get.
HGSS's peak difficulty is in the early game and even then:
Bugsy's scyther is scary, I'll give you that if you don't want to use geodude. The alternative is the rock Tomb tm in union cave so you can hit him with that and BUGS SQUASHED
Whitney's miltank: same problem. Also countered by the dude, but you have more options. Take a fighting mon can be the get out of jail free card, or use rock Tomb again! Using it on miltank is actually really effective since if you spam it enough your other mons can be able to outspeed and finish the cow off. Just any pokemon with a high defense does the trick. Most players use their starter+flaafy+some others, which doesn't really pan out.
And for morty, I wouldn't call using a normal type cheating. You're using type advantages to your advantage so nothings stopping you from pivoting to a sentret to tank shadow balls.
Eh, what I'm tryna say is pokemon becomes easier the more you explore it's avenues.
Besides, after morty, the entire johto league just folds in half because GF decided to not have a single enemy pokemon levelled past 30.
Tbh i forgot I could use Geodude/Onix and destroy him lol. I don’t like either one so I wouldn’t have used them either way. I don’t like burning tms early on in games where they’re not reusable.
I had Heracross so not an issue. It was over in 3 turns lol.
I hadn’t been training any normal types, and there’s a difference between using types to your advantage, and taking advantage of holes in AI/moveset/game mechanics to have an overly lengthy battle where your opponent loses a war of attrition. The latter is fine for challenge runs, but I don’t think it should be necessary for vanilla runs.
I guess, what I was trying to say, was that in most games, provided you have a well rounded squad consisting of good to great Pokemon, the gyms won’t present a challenge.
Whereas for HGSS, if you use specific strategies for the early gyms, they’re easy.
Like by virtue of having a starter with a good matchup into Gym 2 in any other game means that gym is free, unless they specifically planned against that type matchup. Like putting a bunch of ground/water in a water gym to counter against electric type attacks.
But in HGSS Quilava gets overpowered by Bugsy’s ace. Or can depending on the matchup.
And more challenging mid game leaders like Flannery or Norman require planning, but there are a variety of strategies available, and again, by virtue of forming a good squad by that point in the game, I didn’t have too much trouble overpowering them without having to go out of my way to use a certain type.
Maybe it’s just a coincidence that the types i enjoy using in the region don’t match up as well, or are at awkward spots in their development. Either way, it wasn’t meant as a complaint but an observation :)
I think in the OG games, you had the advantage of higher EV totals (likely maxing out all stats if you use the same team throughout) and weaker enemy teams.
I decided I wasn’t in the best headspace for a first time play through and was being overly negative. It’s a fun world, and I was, to an extent, rushing through it. That said, they definitely could have given more to attention to the world and less to daily events!! :P
I do feel like the game picks up after Goldenrod, more of a sudden shift than in most games. And I think there’s an optimal order of enjoyability for gyms, going left to right on the map.
I also think the Safari Zone was a good addition, but should have been something else. The two extra routes add a lot, but I’m not too big on the zone itself. Too little yield for the amount of work during the game.
I was initially excited by the two additional routes HGSS added, but ended up heartily disliking them.
Route 47 is genuinely visually stunning (by the standards of the visuals at the time anyway) and feels genuinely distinct from all the other routes in Johto. But for all that it looks great, it's just... small. It takes far less time to traverse than it looks like it should; the feature of there being different levels is neat, but there are no alternative paths to travel on foot so the main part of the route ends up basically being a corridor. And even though you can use Surf at the base of the route, you need Waterfall or Rock Climb to actually go anywhere or access the tall grass. The Cliff Cave is a really cool place in concept (I love how you can hear the waterfall even inside the cave) but it's just a glorified ladder; it should have been much bigger and sprawling.
And then Route 48 is just... nothing. No trainers, only one item barely hidden or out of the way, nothing to actually return for barring a couple of Pokemon not found anywhere else.
I wish these routes had been as expansive as the official region artwork made them look. They don't feel lived-in or particularly sprawling and considering they're counted as two different area they're barely the size of several other routes in Johto - Route 31 and Route 34 and Route 27 all contain actual houses, but you couldn't imagine anyone living here.
I've said before but I wish the area leading here could have been a forest. Johto is full of caves and the cave between Cianwood and Route 47 is an incredibly dull area - a forest would have been a more interesting way to connect the two locations (with the player heading north from Cianwood, climbing upwards and gradually turning south, then finally emerging onto Route 47) and would have been the perfect opportunity for a winding road with multiple branching paths and a bunch of different trainers. Ilex Forest is a dark, gloomy sort of place but imagine a clifftop forest that was sunny, windswept, and bright, full of Pokemon like Skiploom, Pidgeotto, Drowzee, Sunkern, and Tangela. Not only would this add a bit more length to the story, it'd also provide an opportunity to put some wild Pokemon and NPC trainers with species not seen elsewhere. Considering how disappointed everyone in Kanto is shown to be by the closure of the Safari Zone in Fuchsia, people should be raring to visit the brand-new Safari Zone in Johto: the road there should be absolutely chock-full of eager trainers looking to capture rare Pokemon, as well as showoffs who've come to battle and showcase their teams.
Route 47 is genuinely visually stunning (by the standards of the visuals at the time anyway) and feels genuinely distinct from all the other routes in Johto. But for all that it looks great, it's just... small. It takes far less time to traverse than it looks like it should; the feature of there being different levels is neat, but there are no alternative paths to travel on foot so the main part of the route ends up basically being a corridor. And even though you can use Surf at the base of the route, you need Waterfall or Rock Climb to actually go anywhere or access the tall grass. The Cliff Cave is a really cool place in concept (I love how you can hear the waterfall even inside the cave) but it's just a glorified ladder; it should have been much bigger and sprawling.
And then Route 48 is just... nothing. No trainers, only one item barely hidden or out of the way, nothing to actually return for barring a couple of Pokemon not found anywhere else.
I wish these routes had been as expansive as the official region artwork made them look. They don't feel lived-in or particularly sprawling and considering they're counted as two different area they're barely the size of several other routes in Johto - Route 31 and Route 34 and Route 27 all contain actual houses, but you couldn't imagine anyone living here.
I've said before but I wish the area leading here could have been a forest. Johto is full of caves and the cave between Cianwood and Route 47 is an incredibly dull area - a forest would have been a more interesting way to connect the two locations (with the player heading north from Cianwood, climbing upwards and gradually turning south, then finally emerging onto Route 47) and would have been the perfect opportunity for a winding road with multiple branching paths and a bunch of different trainers. Ilex Forest is a dark, gloomy sort of place but imagine a clifftop forest that was sunny, windswept, and bright, full of Pokemon like Skiploom, Pidgeotto, Drowzee, Sunkern, and Tangela. Not only would this add a bit more length to the story, it'd also provide an opportunity to put some wild Pokemon and NPC trainers with species not seen elsewhere. Considering how disappointed everyone in Kanto is shown to be by the closure of the Safari Zone in Fuchsia, people should be raring to visit the brand-new Safari Zone in Johto: the road there should be absolutely chock-full of eager trainers looking to capture rare Pokemon, as well as showoffs who've come to battle and showcase their teams.
That’s fair. I didn’t finish exploring them, but they felt expansive enough I made the mistake of assuming they matched the feeling you described.
Abomasnow is impossible to play with. How can i decide whether to name him Its Snover or Obamasnow.
In all seriousness I’m rescinding my negative Platinum take. After SS I thought i was burnt out of Pokemon only to find Plat to be a breath of fresh air. I still don’t love the new additions to it, but the dex overall is great and some of the new editions breathed new life into good designs that were too weak to be useful.
I think in the grand scheme of Pokemon, as they keep going and going, eventually the dex is going to get bigger and bigger, and adding more cross-gen evolutions and subspecies is a way to not be overwhelming while still adding to the franchise.
In all seriousness I’m rescinding my negative Platinum take. After SS I thought i was burnt out of Pokemon only to find Plat to be a breath of fresh air. I still don’t love the new additions to it, but the dex overall is great and some of the new editions breathed new life into good designs that were too weak to be useful.
I think in the grand scheme of Pokemon, as they keep going and going, eventually the dex is going to get bigger and bigger, and adding more cross-gen evolutions and subspecies is a way to not be overwhelming while still adding to the franchise.
we're so barack obamasnow <- a perfect name thats impossible because of gamefreaks cruel censorship of names with more than 12 characters
I Do not think team plasma is a good team in bw1.
They don't really have a point. They preach about liberating their pokemon so they can be freed from human control, yet they do shit that is detrimental to the pokemon ecosystem. (E.g. assaulting a munna for dream mist)
Because they're shackled to a pokemon plot, we don't get to see team plasmas plans actually have a positive effect on the unovan mainland.
Therefore, they give off the same impression of the past 3 evil teams, "big bad who abuse pokemon for personal gain and nothing else"
Maybe if we saw team plasma saving a pokemon from a bad person then I guess I'd redeem them but...
They don't really have a point. They preach about liberating their pokemon so they can be freed from human control, yet they do shit that is detrimental to the pokemon ecosystem. (E.g. assaulting a munna for dream mist)
Because they're shackled to a pokemon plot, we don't get to see team plasmas plans actually have a positive effect on the unovan mainland.
Therefore, they give off the same impression of the past 3 evil teams, "big bad who abuse pokemon for personal gain and nothing else"
Maybe if we saw team plasma saving a pokemon from a bad person then I guess I'd redeem them but...
That’s the point: they’re using what seems to be an altruistic cause because it allows them to hide their true intentions and rationalize their militarization. The perceived altruistic cause also brings in people who truly believe in it.
The whole point was that they supposedly had a plan for mass Pokemon liberation, which true believers (and the grifters amongst the 7 Sages claimed) would be a solution to the exploitative relationship between humans and Pokemon.
Which is what led to the majority of the “bad things” Team Plasma did: they were done by people who thought it was for the greater good.
Doing what you’re describing wasn’t sufficiently radical for these people, they weren’t concerned with an individual’s transgressions, or conditions for an individual Pokemon, but the systematic conditions that led the harm to Pokemon occurring.
They were not trying to reform the system but destroy it entirely.
Also I’m pretty sure someone reamed out the grunts for harrassing the Musharna.
That’s the idea, though. They’re supposed to be, at best, misguided and naive suckers who are being manipulated by the rhetoric of a wannabe dictator.
Team Plasma’s “argument” isn’t that Pokémon should be rescued from abusive Trainers. That would be a straightforwardly and obviously correct argument that everyone should be able to agree with, and wouldn’t really be worth creating a conflict over. Every reasonable person can agree that animal abusers are bad and should not be trusted to care for animals.
The issue is that Team Plasma’s (ostensible) position is that Pokémon training and battling is inherently abusive, because Pokémon inevitably get hurt in the process of doing battle, and that because of this, they are morally justified in stealing Pokémon that are mutual partners and companions to humans, with no regard for the feelings or consent of either the people or Pokémon affected.
Team Plasma are designed to occupy a deliberately extreme position that masquerades as a sensible one through the use of charged accusations that sound convincing on the surface, but have little to no foundation in truth. All while being used to advance the personal goals of the ultimate abusive piece of trash, who happens to be clever and resourceful enough to leverage these fallacious arguments in his favor.
This is just like 1984… then again after using we’re so barack, perhaps a better name would be Bowling Pin bc the guy sure gets KO-ed a lot.
I'd be way more willing to accept the "Team Plasma is misguided/hypocritical" angle if the game didn't stop to say "we gotta listen to people with different opinions, maaaan" fifty different times.