Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[gmrn]

Tapu Lele is clearly broken for a multitude of reasons:

First of all choice scarf sets are broken due to incredible ability to clean up games, and potency of coverage, allowing it to break through teams very easily. It is easily one of the best speed control options in the tier, and setting psychic terrain enables a lot of set up pokemon and makes pokemon like alakazam and deoxys polarising threats!

Cm z sets are also broken, due to immense power as a wincon, as well as being able to break easily through common defensive cores, fight z blowing up any fighting types. It's middling speed is made up for by high special bulk and incredible match up into fatter structures

Finally, choice specs and assault vest sets provide further set variety, making it a guessing game against Lele, while also both being noteworthy in and of themselves. Specs Lele is an amazing wallbreaker into balance and fat, while assault vest provides as a special stopgap while also being a threatening offensive presence

If you cannot see that this mon is too overcentralizing for the meta, your judgement must be clouded by your bad smell

 

[Lightniong]

fight z blowing up any fighting types

?

All jokes aside, Tapu Lele is really good, but not broken at all. Choiced sets (specs, scarf) you can play around the same as any choiced Pokémon, which is scout out the move that their going to use, and then you basically have a free switch into any Pokémon that can take it, and you can do whatever you want. Non-Scarf sets are also cursed with a less than desirable 317 speed stat, which can be easily outspend by most common Pokémon in the metagame (Ogerpon-W, Garchomp, Dragapult, and a LOT more) and a multitude of steel types can take on non-fight z sets with good play to ensure that they don’t switch into a focus blast (Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Kingambit, Gholdengo, Iron Crown, Heatran, Msciz), which you would probably want on a competitively viable team anyway due to being a steel type.

Also about it assisting set up sweepers to become more broken, it’s only 5 turns, and terrain extender Lele is bootycheeks, and you should be trying to not let them set up regardless of Lele or not.

(also who the hell thinks alakazam is polarising)

 

[Comett7778]

Tapu Lele is clearly broken for a multitude of reasons

Counterpoint:

 

[Comett7778]

How have people reacted to Deoxys-S. Has the meta become better or worse, or neutral?

I feel like it really hasn’t changed anything. Its offensive sets need to be on a psychic terrain team, which would require a defensive lele. And if it’s not with psychic terrain gambit destroys it. Sure you can fightium Z or superpower, but those don’t matter if sucker punch just ohkos.

Its lead sets in theory are good. I’ve yet to see any but, having taunt, rocks, spikes, magic coat, superpower, and psycho boost to choose from all seem very good. I personally haven’t used it just because a hazard suicide lead just doesn’t seem appealing to me. Overall I’d say it’s impact is barely felt, if at all.

 

[Wafflecopter2000]

Deoxys-s has felt, like...fine? Just fine. its not the strongest expanding force clicker, its not as good a suicide lead as booster treads (arguably), and its coverage moves rely on nasty plot to do any damage.

 

[Moisture99]

probably nothing else is ever getting unbanned if deo isnt...
highly unserious community if something as pedestrian as deoxys remains banned

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

probably nothing else is ever getting unbanned if deo isnt...
highly unserious community if something as pedestrian as deoxys remains banned

Prob because not many people got reqs/forgot about it, and then those that do chose for it to remain banned for the hahas. I love highly unserious communities as reading those doomposters in Gen9OU metagame discussion is draining my energy as is my energy being drained from farming for Furina for the first time.

 

[Moyashi]

I honestly think not many people even knew DeoS was being tested. I mean several people I asked about while laddering were actually surprised to see it when I brought it a couple games and asked why ut was here. I personally ended up deciding to not get reqs this time precisely because I saw so little of it that I couldn’t really get a good grasp on what it was fully capable of and didn’t have an opinion one way or the other so I’m not bothered if it gets freed.

Moving away from DeoS though, I wanna talk about one Mon in particular that I think is hella underrated


:
and this isn’t a joke either. I feel Ditto is legit a solid Mon right now. I was originally intrigued by the idea of Ditto when Runo first mentioned it in the VR thread and took it for a whirl. It’s a very comfortable and effective speed control option that ensures Balance isn’t easy to catch or overwhelm with various boosting sweepers or wall breakers, and helps cover some annoying mons that you might be a bit weaker to depending on your structure. It’s also really nice as a tool to punish webs teams (whether copying their threats, sometimes boosted, or copying the web setter to also throw down webs and even the field).

 

[FirstlyMe]

Tapu Lele is clearly broken for a multitude of reasons:

First of all choice scarf sets are broken due to incredible ability to clean up games, and potency of coverage, allowing it to break through teams very easily. It is easily one of the best speed control options in the tier, and setting psychic terrain enables a lot of set up pokemon and makes pokemon like alakazam and deoxys polarising threats!

Cm z sets are also broken, due to immense power as a wincon, as well as being able to break easily through common defensive cores, fight z blowing up any fighting types. It's middling speed is made up for by high special bulk and incredible match up into fatter structures

Finally, choice specs and assault vest sets provide further set variety, making it a guessing game against Lele, while also both being noteworthy in and of themselves. Specs Lele is an amazing wallbreaker into balance and fat, while assault vest provides as a special stopgap while also being a threatening offensive presence

If you cannot see that this mon is too overcentralizing for the meta, your judgement must be clouded by your bad smell

Aw hell nah
As a tapu lele enthusiast I can safely say: skill issue
Lele is frail, it dies to pursuit, especially in a teraless metagame and it really has counters! Specs sets are often too slow in such a power/speed crept environment to be considered broken, yes it’s an excellent wallbreaker but still, it has offensive checks. Scarf misses out on a lot of power, even moltres lives a Thunderbolt from full health from scarf lele:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 226-266 (59 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (remember, this is a super effective attack being used on a mon with 85 sp. def)
AV is really missing out on power and can still be hit on the physical side, ever heard of Urshifu, Landorus or Melmetal?
Also about melmetal, it lives tapu lele’s attacks:
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 56 HP / 188 SpD Melmetal: 160-190 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (same goes for scarf lele btw)
And focus blast is a 2HKO from scarf/AV lele, but let’s be real, it’s too inconsistent and you only use it on dark types like tyranitar, otherwise Moonblast would’ve done the trick. As well you can switch out from lele.
Z CM lele has the same problem, too slow and frail on the physical side.
It may look like I’m bad mouthing lele but I’m not, it can act as a strong gambit check (it just needs to gamble on focus blasts landing) since it’s terrain blocks priority, it’s a GREAT wallbreaker, and like you said, enables other mons like DeoS and Zam, but that should be something about those mons, not lele itself, as well you won’t be sane if you call zam broken. Lele is just like any other psychic, it fears common darks I.e. for example tyranitar or gambit. It has negatives and positives like every other mon, if not then it would already be in Ubers.

 

[FirstlyMe]

Counterpoint:
View attachment 697651

Call me a dumbass but how did you put that picture of crown without it being an attachment? I don’t use forums too often so yeah.
It’s attach command I believe [ attach ] but how did you get the image value?

 

[FirstlyMe]

I’ve wanted to use these mons for a long time but don’t know good teammates/playstyles for them, can anyone help?
1)

2)

3)

4)

5)

I don’t need you to make the team, just tell me some good cores with them.

 

[Comett7778]

how did you put that picture of crown without it being an attachment?

Above where you’re typing there should be a little picture photo.

It’s the 5th one over, but by the looks of your next post you figured it out.

 

[FirstlyMe]

It’s the 5th one over, but by the looks of your next post you figured it out.

Nah, I used : sv/ [pokemon’s name] : (i had to leave spaces between the colons so it won’t register as an invalid command)

 

[Comett7778]

Nah, I used : sv/ [pokemon’s name] : (i had to leave spaces between the colons so it won’t register as an invalid command)

Oh yeah I forgot about that

 

[Wafflecopter2000]

I’ve wanted to use these mons for a long time but don’t know good teammates/playstyles for them, can anyone help?
1)

This guy does one thing: sets sand for excadrill. Run it with eject button/lefties if you also run ttar or smooth rock if its your only sand setter. Give excadrill SD + Zmove and go to town

2)

Mega gyarados LOVES screens HO. Try it out with a deospeed sucide lead and something to handle mons it cant break (tapu bulu, dondozo, tapu fini) like iron crown

3)

Uhhhhh this is sort of unviable but maybe Mega Glalie could work on a webs team....? Pair it with araquanid (handles fire types) and something else that appreciates webs like Band/np hoopa-u? Again this isnt great mon but fits mostly into HO shells to leverage its nuclear bomb refrigerate explosion

4)

This guy is just a great scarfer, fits into lots of teams. Pair with AV treads to handle koko + raging bolt. Really solid into the lando t spam on ladder rn.

5)

Gastro can fit on bulkier teams as a hazard support mon. Set it up next to physdef tangrowth and something like mega latios/as

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Try writing out of quotes perhaps

 

[Wafflecopter2000]

Try writing out of quotes perhaps

I don't think it has any impact on the utility of what I said. Why don't you try contributing something useful instead of policing other people's formatting? I edited it anyway to make you happy bud.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

It sure has been ages since I've done one of these, hasn't it? Well here I am bringing to you a case that I have found very interesting. As the sun enthusiast that I am, I have to admire this one specifically, the sudden rise of a certain mon that, for the longest time was considered awful.

The Resurgence of Ninetales:

Kantonian Ninetales was never a good mon, it simply has too poor stats to work with. Sure it may have Drought, but if you wanted a Drought user for a dedicated sun team, then Torkoal was always the safer bet with its better physical bulk, acess to Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, while Mega Charizard Y is an insane wallbreaker that can also facilitate a sun centric strategy. So what is it that made Ninetales suddenly even have a place in the National Dex Viability Rankings? One move, Healing Wish. And yes, you are sacrificing your setter, but this is meant to be a last hurrah move that should be used late game. You bring Ninetales early on, get the sun up, switch around the opponent, and then bring a sweeper that can take advantage of the sun active, until you are ready to close the game, and then you commit to Healing Wish and its receiver. There is a risk-reward factor tied to this, but the payoff is worth it, as Healing Wish is an insane momentum gainer for offensive teams, like well... sun teams. Bringing essentially a 2nd Raging Bolt or Great Tusk can swing the game in one's favor. Other sun abusers like Vicitini, Venasaur and Blaziken also benefit greatly from having a second chance to assault the opponent. Even frail ones like Mega Houndoom and Scovillain enjoy the Healing Wish's ability to bring them in at full health, since even if Stealth Rocks are up, and they were 25% or below, they would still receive the healing before rocks take effect. Another major factor over fellow sun setter Torkoal is its speed, base 100 while no longer impressive, it can still get the job done under certain mons, and Ninetales can make use of that speed tier to Healing Wish in front of certain threats, such as non-Scarf Gholdengo, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, and Ursaluna to name a few. Another solid move in its arsenal is Encore, an amazing disruptor move that can provide insane value. With its 100 speed, it can speedtie with Volcarona, who you can Encore after a Quiver Dance and bring something that poses a threat to it, or getting a free switchin. Encore can also be used effectively against mons like Calm Mind Raging Bolt, Calm Mind Tapu Lele, Swords Dance Kingambit, and even something like Subroost Kyurem after putting down a sub. Mystical Fire is also an excellent utility move to weaken certain special attackers, and Hypnosis while inaccurate, can be crucial by putting something to sleep. Ninetales fits on more aggressive centric styles of sun teams who would benefit greatly from Healing Wish in the late game. Think about this as a sort "Hyper Offense" variant of sun. Now even with these, Ninetales is still a flawed mon, and most of the time its gonna be its teammates doing the heavy lifting. But this underlooked mon is currently making an impact on the meta landscape. Shoutouts to Kyo
for providing a sun team for the ocassion:

 

[Spookcooke]

This guy does one thing: sets sand for excadrill. Run it with eject button/lefties if you also run ttar or smooth rock if its your only sand setter. Give excadrill SD + Zmove and go to town


Mega gyarados LOVES screens HO. Try it out with a deospeed sucide lead and something to handle mons it cant break (tapu bulu, dondozo, tapu fini) like iron crown


Uhhhhh this is sort of unviable but maybe Mega Glalie could work on a webs team....? Pair it with araquanid (handles fire types) and something else that appreciates webs like Band/np hoopa-u? Again this isnt great mon but fits mostly into HO shells to leverage its nuclear bomb refrigerate explosion


This guy is just a great scarfer, fits into lots of teams. Pair with AV treads to handle koko + raging bolt. Really solid into the lando t spam on ladder rn.


Gastro can fit on bulkier teams as a hazard support mon. Set it up next to physdef tangrowth and something like mega latios/as

Hippowdown is not just a sand setter, its also a defensive check to mons such as scarf lele and chardy, while having utility in rocks and toxic.

Yea mglalie is wholly unviable, webs cant even save it

Pretty sure gapdos is only used as a webber mon these days, i dont see scarf or the mon in general often. Slap bu, sub, brave birb, and thunder kick with flynium z and it can uhh webs its way to victory.

 

[Comett7778]

The Resurgence of Ninetales:

Healing wish on ninetails is the best possible(realistic) buff it could have gotten. Being able to reset sun and bring back a powerful threat helps to improve the HO playstyle of sun teams tend to lean into. I’m definitely gonna try the sample team.

Weird question I had, did people realize this in Gen 9 Ou or Nat Dex Ou first? Because I know Gen 9 Ou has been using healing wish partnered with Walking Wake for a bit too, but I don’t know which use of it caught on first.

 

[Spookcooke]

Healing wish on ninetails is the best possible(realistic) buff it could have gotten. Being able to reset sun and bring back a powerful threat helps to improve the HO playstyle of sun teams tend to lean into. I’m definitely gonna try the sample team.

Weird question I had, did people realize this in Gen 9 Ou or Nat Dex Ou first? Because I know Gen 9 Ou has been using healing wish partnered with Walking Wake for a bit too, but I don’t know which use of it caught on first.

Ninetails has been ranked in svou since august, which im pretty sure is earlier than ndou

 

[Comett7778]

Ninetails has been ranked in svou since august, which im pretty sure is earlier than ndou

Thanks for letting me know! I’m guessing Walking Wake doing Walking Wake things lead to people wanting a healing wish sun setter.

 

[Patar136]

I dunno call me crazy but I just prefer the utility of Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin from Torkoal more. Plus, with Body Press, it can punish Tyranitar switching in reasonably well. I don't hate Kantonian Ninetales but it seems specific. Healing Wish is cool.

Speaking of things, I really expected Deoxys-Speed to hurt Charizard-Y. And yeah, it's faster and it can set Stealth Rock pretty well, but that also means that if you can taunt the other lead and deny Stealth Rock then your own Charizard-Y has an easier time. I bet a funny lead set with Ice Beam + Taunt could shut down lead Landorus which is pretty funny, forcing it to blow up with Explosion and not get rocks or get rocks and then die immediately, the former seeming more likely than the latter.

 

[Spookcooke]

I dunno call me crazy but I just prefer the utility of Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin from Torkoal more. Plus, with Body Press, it can punish Tyranitar switching in reasonably well. I don't hate Kantonian Ninetales but it seems specific. Healing Wish is cool.

Speaking of things, I really expected Deoxys-Speed to hurt Charizard-Y. And yeah, it's faster and it can set Stealth Rock pretty well, but that also means that if you can taunt the other lead and deny Stealth Rock then your own Charizard-Y has an easier time. I bet a funny lead set with Ice Beam + Taunt could shut down lead Landorus which is pretty funny, forcing it to blow up with Explosion and not get rocks or get rocks and then die immediately, the former seeming more likely than the latter.

Yea, torkoal has its own merits, but ninetails ability to disrupt with greater speed and great utility in wisp, hypno, mystical fire, encore make it stand out as an alternative to torkoal. encore especially allows it to disrupt opponents to give free turns to pivot with hwish or just give a free switch to ur own team.

 

[about15gals]

I’ve wanted to use these mons for a long time but don’t know good teammates/playstyles for them, can anyone help?
1)

2)

3)

4)

5)

I don’t need you to make the team, just tell me some good cores with them.

ok ngl idk what that first guy was cooking BUT hippowdon is a really cool niche defensive pokemon right now. it's main use is absolutely stuffing weather teams (think yard/peli stuff) via sand stream. It's pretty bulky and mono ground is great defensively so it can also pull its weight vs koko/ghold stuff too. Unfortunately it's not the best since it has a habit of getting worn down by spikes but I still love it dearly.

Mgyara is 100% a HO guy no ifs and or buts about it, oculars has like 20 teams with the guy and he'll probably pass you one if you ask nicely

mglalie is just kind of bad, doesnt hit hard enough to justify its use and lack of setup hurts it. maybe a weird suicide lead with ice-type explosion? doesn't seem good though

I haven't built with gapdos lately but I know a lot of people are looking at it right now, it's got a lot of really cool traits that definitely make it an interesting pokemon to look at, for what its worth im pretty sure it got suggested to TLW a bit ago so it should get a team pretty soon, just check that thread in like a week for the team

Sadly gastrodon is probably just ass, the main water types in the tier can just bypass its ability via secondary stab/coverage and hit it hard enough to threaten a kill, and its way too passive to justify its use right now