Every time I come back here it looks like another episode of "let's ban all the stuff I cannot safely switch mienfoo into"
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Metagame Metagame Discussion
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Big lc love mienfoo and hate the Counters :/
Y'all sleeping on Overcoat Vull as a foong answer
252+ Atk Snubbull Fire Punch vs. 44 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
Even if it did 2HKO, Foongus would just Giga Drain to heal back up out of range. Obviously, this isn't saying that you specifically had to use a set similar to this. However, Foongus counterplay is very known and theres a reason we don't see a ton of variance in top level play. In week 1 of LCPL, 70% of teams have Foongus. The primary reason behind that is that Foongus is the best counter to itself, alongside with sleep in general being a broken mechanic in the first place as evident by the mod we use to limit it. Lets evaluate stuff that can switch into Foongus anyways though
Foongus Itself. Foongus is immune to spore and can tank attacks from itself
Sleep immune abilities. Immune to spore, however don't want to tank another attack and are clearly disadvantaged
Overcoat Vullaby. The best option besides Foongus itself however this limits Vullaby's versatility and doesn't get use currently for a reason
Sleep talk. I talked about this, but I don't even count this as counterplay really. You just add more variance that has no skill expressionIf you can come up with much more, do let me know. Sub sets that are immune to Spore do exist, however they also do have a few notable flaws. If you fall for a set like Suzuya did vs Gawain in this game, its very much user error for the Foongus user here. It only really consistently works vs people who aren't familiar with the intricacies of the tier. Additionally, sets like these don't really address the core problem which is Spore switchins just don't really exist or barely exist at all in SV. I think the individual problem of Foongus being impossible to swap into is also mainly a SV unique thing. Two main things
Ferroseed. Very self-explanatory
Tera. Its a very volatile mechanic and I think everyone can agree with that. Naturally sleep is more of an issue when battles swing easilyOne other thing that I think people can tell from the bit earlier in this post is that Foongus naturally centralizes the meta. This isn't objectively a bad thing as there are a ton of good metas that I would describe as centralized. However, the main difference for this one for me here is objectively it is broken checking broken. Sleep is broken and not using it puts you at a massive disadvantage that is very difficult to overcome. Heres one example of this with Danny playing in LCBC. Danny had to outplay the hell out of his opponent this game to give a good fight, this simply just doesn't have to happen if he used his own Foongus. I think this also doesn't really apply to oldgens right now as there are plenty of people doing well while dropping pivotal threats in their generations like Vullaby, Mienfoo, and Gligar with people still having success while doing so. It's never been exactly like how it is right now with sleep
I would also like to get rid of the statements that say Foongus wars are somehow competitive. They are inherently based on coinflipping to get an advantagous position when they end. There is a direct example of that in this game. ASP got a coinflip right at the end of it, and thats why he won. That specific exchange in the game wasn't won because he played more skillful and saying so would be silly.
If people aren't convinced that sleep should be banned in SVLC and are fine with just playing constant Foongus wars, thats fine. However, the notion that people just aren't creative enough is ridiculous. What is more ridiculous though is thinking that theres somehow any skill involved in it.
I think spore's expected value is broken. 2 or 3 turns is a long time and can allow any offensive threat to enter and setup or attack freely. Even 1 turn is a big deal, because it still allows the foongus user to switch safely into a threat safely. If the slept target double switches, it becomes pretty much unusable having to burn turns later if it enters again.
Therefore, the best route against a foongus for teams lacking sleep talk users (inconsistent, also high opportunity cost) is to use your own Foongus to position vs their foongus. You can try to get chip to force recovery turns in the mirror and then go to something that threatens an immediate OHKO, and this will usually work. However, your opponent will also be trying to do the same thing, and ultimately you can be read on the switch anyway. I believe sleep or Foongus is broken because any time a foongus enters the game almost all positioning is done via foongus wars or the threat of forcing one. There is no reliable way to force a desirable result of a Foongus war, even if some team choices such as Magby and Alolashrew help.
Therefore, the best route against a foongus for teams lacking sleep talk users (inconsistent, also high opportunity cost) is to use your own Foongus to position vs their foongus. You can try to get chip to force recovery turns in the mirror and then go to something that threatens an immediate OHKO, and this will usually work. However, your opponent will also be trying to do the same thing, and ultimately you can be read on the switch anyway. I believe sleep or Foongus is broken because any time a foongus enters the game almost all positioning is done via foongus wars or the threat of forcing one. There is no reliable way to force a desirable result of a Foongus war, even if some team choices such as Magby and Alolashrew help.
ive made my case on sleep ftmp, but as an aside, i believe that the variance from sleep talk is a form of skill expression as weaponised RNG. there are many situations where being unpredictable "on demand" is actually an advantage and is an expression of positioning and relies on the expressive interaction of choosing a sleep sack.
you make a lot of fair points and i respect that. but then you say things that amount to a hasty and biased conclusion. paraphrasing here: "there is no skill expression in sleep talk" is an inarguable phrase that is disproven by actually playing sleep talk and noticing that it requires skill to use.
how is it on demand if your opponent is the one in control of when you fall asleep and you have zero control of what move you call or when you wake up. Sleep Talk is complete cope
with skill expression
do you know what that means or are you just living up to your username
do you know what that means?
Gonna keep it short since most of what I've said has been said already, but sleep is really annoying in current SV compared to previous gens. Berry Juice makes Overcoat Vulla a lot easier to justify compared to eviolite, and losing other good grasses (but mainly just ferroseed) makes Spore immunes that don't mind coming into Foong very uncommon. There is definitely some skill expression when trying to play proactively around Foongus, but its just not a very fun dynamic to play completely paranoid against an otherwise passive fighter resist.
Also would like to advocate for a full sleep ban instead of specifically a Foongus ban. Considering all real sleepers in the tier use powder moves, a Foongus ban makes other sleepers infinitely more annoying to deal with. Toedscool spore becomes a niche option that you sometimes see to a fucking nightmare because all of the sleep immunes do not want to come in vs Toedscool under any scenarios or are otherwise just very difficult to justify for specifically Toedscool.
Also, dont want a sleep ban to become some kind of standard going forward. This should be something we analyze on a generation by generation basis. I (and most other players) have no issues dealing with Sleep in the other fairy gens, so theres a very real chance it will be perfectly managable in Gen 10.
Also would like to advocate for a full sleep ban instead of specifically a Foongus ban. Considering all real sleepers in the tier use powder moves, a Foongus ban makes other sleepers infinitely more annoying to deal with. Toedscool spore becomes a niche option that you sometimes see to a fucking nightmare because all of the sleep immunes do not want to come in vs Toedscool under any scenarios or are otherwise just very difficult to justify for specifically Toedscool.
Also, dont want a sleep ban to become some kind of standard going forward. This should be something we analyze on a generation by generation basis. I (and most other players) have no issues dealing with Sleep in the other fairy gens, so theres a very real chance it will be perfectly managable in Gen 10.
Agree with a lot of your response, just wanted to point out a couple calc issues:
1. that that set was made when 124 HP / 156 Def Foong was the standard and assumes Rocks are up, which gives the 99.6% chance to 2hko, and
2. back then Snubbull didn't have access to Psychic Fangs, which usually gets (88.7%, 99.6% with rocks) the 2HKO on this fully physdef Foongus set with just 17 Atk, so even the analysis set's EVs which don't max out attack can get there.
There's also some stuff we haven't seen yet in the counterplay cycle. For example, a Foongus war is a coinflip bonanza when they have the same speed stat, but if someone decided to run a 9 speed Foong, they probably win that. Foongus is good right now but I think there may be more adaptation in the pipeline. If we don't see that in a little while, we should probably do something about it.
With LCBC underway, I want to comment on a few meta trends that have been discussed as problematic:
Sleep
I've been a bit surprised by the big upsurge of anti-Sleep sentiment lately. This is mostly because I haven't felt that Sleep was any more problematic than usual in the current meta. While the absence of Ferroseed all generation has made it harder to block Foongus's Spore, we've seen a huge number of adaptations to Foongus that prey on its weaknesses. Fire-types (the dominant offensive mons in the meta), Sandshrew-A (sometimes with Safety Goggles), Steel Substitute Mienfoo, Substitute Stunky, even Steel Substitute Mudbray and Chespin -- all of these are offensive adaptations to Foongus that create serious matchup advantage. While one could argue that some of these things, especially the Sub sets, show Foongus's overcentralizing effect, in my mind they're just matchup-fishing attackers in a meta with a strong Foongus, hardly an unusual status quo for LC. It's not as though you automatically lose to Foongus without those techs, either, even if you don't bring your own Foongus. Mareanie has gone through multiple ebbs and surges this generation, and it's currently in the midst of a surge. No level of Foongus grousing can keep its main competitor down.
I am sympathetic to the technical argument against Sleep Clause, which is that it can't be recreated on cartridge. From a pure balancing perspective, though, I don't think Sleep is particularly unbalanced. I certainly wouldn't argue that it's too strong on Toedscool, either. Like most people, I don't find the the random 1-3 turn variance very fun, but I wouldn't find ubiquitous Stun Spore very fun either, so that subjective point isn't very persuasive to me. Council has discussed this issue, and while I can't speak for everybody, most of us don't feel a lot of urgency to act.
Now, for a couple things in the meta that I find a bit more problematic:
Magby
Magby's rise during SCL, and its subsequent rise above Torchic on the VR, has been the dominant theme of late SV, and I've come to believe that the mon is too much to handle. It's faster than almost the entire metagame, is extremely strong, and has the movepool to beat any of its checks. The main Water-type, Mareanie, can hardly switch into Fire Blast without dying to Psychic after Stealth Rock, and Mareanie loses entirely if it's knocked or Magby is Tera Psychic. Tera Psychic also lets Magby prevent Gothita from trapping it. Tera Grass with Tera Blast, a set we've seen more in response to rising Water-types like Chinchou and Shellos, is even more difficult to check, and it also kills Trapinch attempting to trade for a trap. Even the simple Will-o-Wisp Protect set barely has switch-ins, as it beats Mienfoo 1v1. What of course elevates Magby over Torchic is its ability to beat Fire-resists long term without committing Tera, and it only gets more dangerous with Tera. Even Belly Drum, the set which got Magby banned in SS LC, has been very strong earlier in SV LC with the additional tool of Tera Ghost, and sweeps through Magby's typical checks, is making a comeback. In a meta with few (if any) strong Scarf users, I think Magby stretches the tier's defensive tools very, very thin.
Sun
Sun's strength is a natural extension of the strength of Fire-types, and I think a the coalescing of a few factors (Voltorb-H's ban making Diglett-A a more reliable Sun setter, a slight decline in Stunky usage, and a generation-long dearth of strong, reliable priority heightened by the rise of SD Mienfoo over Fake Out) has led players to remember Sun is as strong as it ever was. This may come off as sour grapes because JuanSG beat me with Sun this week, and maybe it partially is, but I know I'm not alone in hating playing against Sun. For those who weren't around for early SS LC, the inherent strength of Cholophyll mons lead us to one of the single funniest-out-of-context bans in LC history, Cherubi. Grass+Fire coverage is just extremely strong by its nature, and the Chlorophyll mons defy revenge killings by resisting the most common priority and simple outspeed and killing everything else. In spite of the Chlorophyll/Cherubi bans, Sun STILL became a force in late-gen SS LC behind the back of Fire spam teams featuring Ponyta, Charmander, and Larvesta. While Drought Vulpix has never seen the light of day in SV LC, the Chlorophyll sweeper Bulbasaur is back, and manual Sun is more than reliable enough with fast setters like Diglett-A and Prankster Shroodle.
Sun's usage is still relatively low, but I feel like I never see the archetype lose. Bublasaur is an extremely overwhelming sweeper that can boost with Growth reliably off a Memento, and once it does, the combination of Grass, Fire, and Poison coverage and Giga Drain's healing mean it either kills everything in its path or defies being chipped down. Tera Fire gives it yet another tool to overwhelm possible checks like full-health Stunky and even prevent Vullaby from 1v1ing it in the Sun. STAB Sludge Bomb means that Tera Dragon isn't enough to check it, either. Should you survive Bublasaur under several turns of Sun, you will then have to deal with some combination of Magby, Torchic, or Growlithe-H. These are all extremely strong breakers even without Sun, and the latter two have a habit of demanding defensive Teras to check them; with their Fire moves even stronger in the Sun, they can easily bully their way past whatever resources weren't used to handle Bublasaur. There are, to be sure, some checks that have probably not been discovered or optimized yet, but Sun also has a heap of resources to place heavier and heavier strain on all would-be counterplay. My solution here would probably be a Heat Rock ban, as the length of Sun is often the most difficult thing about it, but I am open to other suggestions and the members of Council who have discussed Sun aren't hard-committed to any one solution.
...
I hope this post sheds some light on both what I, as TL, and Council see as problems, but I don't intend to speak for anybody other than myself.
SleepI've been a bit surprised by the big upsurge of anti-Sleep sentiment lately. This is mostly because I haven't felt that Sleep was any more problematic than usual in the current meta. While the absence of Ferroseed all generation has made it harder to block Foongus's Spore, we've seen a huge number of adaptations to Foongus that prey on its weaknesses. Fire-types (the dominant offensive mons in the meta), Sandshrew-A (sometimes with Safety Goggles), Steel Substitute Mienfoo, Substitute Stunky, even Steel Substitute Mudbray and Chespin -- all of these are offensive adaptations to Foongus that create serious matchup advantage. While one could argue that some of these things, especially the Sub sets, show Foongus's overcentralizing effect, in my mind they're just matchup-fishing attackers in a meta with a strong Foongus, hardly an unusual status quo for LC. It's not as though you automatically lose to Foongus without those techs, either, even if you don't bring your own Foongus. Mareanie has gone through multiple ebbs and surges this generation, and it's currently in the midst of a surge. No level of Foongus grousing can keep its main competitor down.
I am sympathetic to the technical argument against Sleep Clause, which is that it can't be recreated on cartridge. From a pure balancing perspective, though, I don't think Sleep is particularly unbalanced. I certainly wouldn't argue that it's too strong on Toedscool, either. Like most people, I don't find the the random 1-3 turn variance very fun, but I wouldn't find ubiquitous Stun Spore very fun either, so that subjective point isn't very persuasive to me. Council has discussed this issue, and while I can't speak for everybody, most of us don't feel a lot of urgency to act.
Now, for a couple things in the meta that I find a bit more problematic:
MagbyMagby's rise during SCL, and its subsequent rise above Torchic on the VR, has been the dominant theme of late SV, and I've come to believe that the mon is too much to handle. It's faster than almost the entire metagame, is extremely strong, and has the movepool to beat any of its checks. The main Water-type, Mareanie, can hardly switch into Fire Blast without dying to Psychic after Stealth Rock, and Mareanie loses entirely if it's knocked or Magby is Tera Psychic. Tera Psychic also lets Magby prevent Gothita from trapping it. Tera Grass with Tera Blast, a set we've seen more in response to rising Water-types like Chinchou and Shellos, is even more difficult to check, and it also kills Trapinch attempting to trade for a trap. Even the simple Will-o-Wisp Protect set barely has switch-ins, as it beats Mienfoo 1v1. What of course elevates Magby over Torchic is its ability to beat Fire-resists long term without committing Tera, and it only gets more dangerous with Tera. Even Belly Drum, the set which got Magby banned in SS LC, has been very strong earlier in SV LC with the additional tool of Tera Ghost, and sweeps through Magby's typical checks, is making a comeback. In a meta with few (if any) strong Scarf users, I think Magby stretches the tier's defensive tools very, very thin.
SunSun's strength is a natural extension of the strength of Fire-types, and I think a the coalescing of a few factors (Voltorb-H's ban making Diglett-A a more reliable Sun setter, a slight decline in Stunky usage, and a generation-long dearth of strong, reliable priority heightened by the rise of SD Mienfoo over Fake Out) has led players to remember Sun is as strong as it ever was. This may come off as sour grapes because JuanSG beat me with Sun this week, and maybe it partially is, but I know I'm not alone in hating playing against Sun. For those who weren't around for early SS LC, the inherent strength of Cholophyll mons lead us to one of the single funniest-out-of-context bans in LC history, Cherubi. Grass+Fire coverage is just extremely strong by its nature, and the Chlorophyll mons defy revenge killings by resisting the most common priority and simple outspeed and killing everything else. In spite of the Chlorophyll/Cherubi bans, Sun STILL became a force in late-gen SS LC behind the back of Fire spam teams featuring Ponyta, Charmander, and Larvesta. While Drought Vulpix has never seen the light of day in SV LC, the Chlorophyll sweeper Bulbasaur is back, and manual Sun is more than reliable enough with fast setters like Diglett-A and Prankster Shroodle.
Sun's usage is still relatively low, but I feel like I never see the archetype lose. Bublasaur is an extremely overwhelming sweeper that can boost with Growth reliably off a Memento, and once it does, the combination of Grass, Fire, and Poison coverage and Giga Drain's healing mean it either kills everything in its path or defies being chipped down. Tera Fire gives it yet another tool to overwhelm possible checks like full-health Stunky and even prevent Vullaby from 1v1ing it in the Sun. STAB Sludge Bomb means that Tera Dragon isn't enough to check it, either. Should you survive Bublasaur under several turns of Sun, you will then have to deal with some combination of Magby, Torchic, or Growlithe-H. These are all extremely strong breakers even without Sun, and the latter two have a habit of demanding defensive Teras to check them; with their Fire moves even stronger in the Sun, they can easily bully their way past whatever resources weren't used to handle Bublasaur. There are, to be sure, some checks that have probably not been discovered or optimized yet, but Sun also has a heap of resources to place heavier and heavier strain on all would-be counterplay. My solution here would probably be a Heat Rock ban, as the length of Sun is often the most difficult thing about it, but I am open to other suggestions and the members of Council who have discussed Sun aren't hard-committed to any one solution.
...
I hope this post sheds some light on both what I, as TL, and Council see as problems, but I don't intend to speak for anybody other than myself.
Council member kythr reporting for duty 
Here are my metagame opinions, ordered from what I feel strongest about to least:
Magby
This guy is not healthy for the metagame whatsoever, and needs to go ASAP. It's one of the fastest viable mons in the tier, hits too hard, and has too viable many offensive sets — of which I find most problematic to be fire blast/psychic/tera blast grass/(sub or protect). With these three coverage moves Magby can hit all of Mienfoo, Mudbray, Foongus, Glimmet, Mareanie, Dig-A, Tink, Toed, Chou, Snowshrew, etc. for super effective damage. These mons typically encompass 4-5 slots on a standard balance team, and incude every mon on the viability rankings listed A- and up, save itself, Vullaby and Stunky. These latter two obviously don't appreciate a fire blast to the face either, but can also be dealt with Magby's second set, will-o-wisp. Tera psychic can also be used for a quick kill on Foo, Glimm and Mare without the need for knocking evio, and can prevent Goth from revenging it. In the recent LCBC weeks I've seen people even resort to (otherwise terrible mons in my opinion) Shellos and Slowpoke to switch into fire blasts and psychics. Both these guys still get obliterated by tera grass. The only true viable counterplay to special Magby is running spdef tera dragon on mons like Bray or Foo... but we all remember the last mon that necessitated this type of defensive reaction, and look at what happened to him.
This is all to say that Magby is running a special attacking set. I don't think people have caught on as much yet, but I can very clearly foresee a future in which Magby gets a free turn in on Foongus, and you switch to your max spdef tera dragon Mudbray, only for the Magby to tera ghost belly drum... I know oran berry isn't berry juice, but there's a reason Magby is banned in SS.
I'd also like to share a few quick stats from the first 3 weeks of LCBC to help substantiate my arguments, but firstly thank you Eseque for compiling all this data for public use.
Obviously usage stats and winrates are not the whole story, but they are at least part of the story. In my opinion an adjusted 72% winrate is pretty absurd, and demonstrates that the risk vs reward benefit for using this mon is greater than what should be healthy for a metagame. The reward obviously being you get to hit >2/3rds of the viable meta for super effective damage by just clicking what's in front of you, and the risk really only being missing a fire blast.
To sum up, Magby is too strong and fast of a mon for LC to handle right now. Because of its set versaltility and coverage options, defensive counterplay is near non-existent, and the risk vs reward benefit is so great that it's hard to justify not using it on most teams. Magby needs to be suspect tested ASAP and I will be voting ban.
Foongus
Agree with everything ghost said here, no point in reiterating.
Chespin
My favorite mon in the meta right now! If you know me as a player then you know that I don't typically use mons just for fun, or just because they're funny — I genuinely think this guy is more than viable and if I was still on VR coucil I'd probably rank him around B+. Some people might call using Chespin a fish, but I'd counter by asking if it's really a fish if almost every balance team currently has either a Foongus or Mudbray on it, if not both? He's got some cool 4th more tech options too that I've explored more after my little super fang fiasco, such as drain punch to goob Snowshrews. I will admit he's pretty restrictive in the builder, but I think Chespin's a great anti-meta pick that deserves to be explored more.
Torchic
I don't think Torchic is broken right now, but could be convinced in the future if Magby gets banned and people start spamming it on broken structures. The difference I find between Magby and Torchic is Torchic's reliance on tera. For Torchic to break through any of its checks (ie. Chou, Glimm, Mare) it needs to tera, while Magby can hit these for big damage with a raw psychic. Furthermore, Chic is fully checked by well played pure water teras (Foo, Bray, Foongus), whereas Magby can break through these with tera grass, as discussed earlier.
Shellder
I've been praying on this mon's banishment to the shadow realm for the better part of two years now, but at the moment it's towards the bottom of my agenda. Even moreso than Magby, it has too many offensive sets (physical/special, protect/sub, tera ghost/fairy/water/rock/ice/electric/stellar, liquidation/rock blast/icicle spear/ice shard) for it to be healthy. Shellder turns matches into guessing games and can sweep your entire team with the correct tera/move combination without you being able to do anything about it. If this thing picks up in usage again perhaps I'll make another post.
Sun
I have no opinion on sun at the moment. I have neither played with or against sun enough to lean one way or the other. Looking forward to reading more opinions on sun if this becomes a more potent topic of discussion.
ghost you owe me a smooch now.
Here are my metagame opinions, ordered from what I feel strongest about to least:
Magby
This guy is not healthy for the metagame whatsoever, and needs to go ASAP. It's one of the fastest viable mons in the tier, hits too hard, and has too viable many offensive sets — of which I find most problematic to be fire blast/psychic/tera blast grass/(sub or protect). With these three coverage moves Magby can hit all of Mienfoo, Mudbray, Foongus, Glimmet, Mareanie, Dig-A, Tink, Toed, Chou, Snowshrew, etc. for super effective damage. These mons typically encompass 4-5 slots on a standard balance team, and incude every mon on the viability rankings listed A- and up, save itself, Vullaby and Stunky. These latter two obviously don't appreciate a fire blast to the face either, but can also be dealt with Magby's second set, will-o-wisp. Tera psychic can also be used for a quick kill on Foo, Glimm and Mare without the need for knocking evio, and can prevent Goth from revenging it. In the recent LCBC weeks I've seen people even resort to (otherwise terrible mons in my opinion) Shellos and Slowpoke to switch into fire blasts and psychics. Both these guys still get obliterated by tera grass. The only true viable counterplay to special Magby is running spdef tera dragon on mons like Bray or Foo... but we all remember the last mon that necessitated this type of defensive reaction, and look at what happened to him.
This is all to say that Magby is running a special attacking set. I don't think people have caught on as much yet, but I can very clearly foresee a future in which Magby gets a free turn in on Foongus, and you switch to your max spdef tera dragon Mudbray, only for the Magby to tera ghost belly drum... I know oran berry isn't berry juice, but there's a reason Magby is banned in SS.
I'd also like to share a few quick stats from the first 3 weeks of LCBC to help substantiate my arguments, but firstly thank you Eseque for compiling all this data for public use.
- Through 3 weeks Magby has been using 22 times, 7th most.
- Magby has a 68% (15/22) winrate, the highest of any of the top 10 used mons. The next highest being 61% (Tink).
- There were exactly 2 instances of Magby vs Magby games. Discounting these 4 uses, Magby's winrate increases to 72% (13/18).
- This means there were only 5 out of 18 times in which a team not using Magby beat a Magby using team.
Obviously usage stats and winrates are not the whole story, but they are at least part of the story. In my opinion an adjusted 72% winrate is pretty absurd, and demonstrates that the risk vs reward benefit for using this mon is greater than what should be healthy for a metagame. The reward obviously being you get to hit >2/3rds of the viable meta for super effective damage by just clicking what's in front of you, and the risk really only being missing a fire blast.
To sum up, Magby is too strong and fast of a mon for LC to handle right now. Because of its set versaltility and coverage options, defensive counterplay is near non-existent, and the risk vs reward benefit is so great that it's hard to justify not using it on most teams. Magby needs to be suspect tested ASAP and I will be voting ban.
Foongus
Agree with everything ghost said here, no point in reiterating.
Chespin
My favorite mon in the meta right now! If you know me as a player then you know that I don't typically use mons just for fun, or just because they're funny — I genuinely think this guy is more than viable and if I was still on VR coucil I'd probably rank him around B+. Some people might call using Chespin a fish, but I'd counter by asking if it's really a fish if almost every balance team currently has either a Foongus or Mudbray on it, if not both? He's got some cool 4th more tech options too that I've explored more after my little super fang fiasco, such as drain punch to goob Snowshrews. I will admit he's pretty restrictive in the builder, but I think Chespin's a great anti-meta pick that deserves to be explored more.
Torchic
I don't think Torchic is broken right now, but could be convinced in the future if Magby gets banned and people start spamming it on broken structures. The difference I find between Magby and Torchic is Torchic's reliance on tera. For Torchic to break through any of its checks (ie. Chou, Glimm, Mare) it needs to tera, while Magby can hit these for big damage with a raw psychic. Furthermore, Chic is fully checked by well played pure water teras (Foo, Bray, Foongus), whereas Magby can break through these with tera grass, as discussed earlier.
Shellder
I've been praying on this mon's banishment to the shadow realm for the better part of two years now, but at the moment it's towards the bottom of my agenda. Even moreso than Magby, it has too many offensive sets (physical/special, protect/sub, tera ghost/fairy/water/rock/ice/electric/stellar, liquidation/rock blast/icicle spear/ice shard) for it to be healthy. Shellder turns matches into guessing games and can sweep your entire team with the correct tera/move combination without you being able to do anything about it. If this thing picks up in usage again perhaps I'll make another post.
Sun
I have no opinion on sun at the moment. I have neither played with or against sun enough to lean one way or the other. Looking forward to reading more opinions on sun if this becomes a more potent topic of discussion.
ghost you owe me a smooch now.
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I agree with most of these opinions, but I have the opposite opinion regarding Magby and Torchic. to me, Magby is definitely better but Torchic is more broken. this is because I can generally depend on speed control to work vs Magby but I cannot depend on any to work vs Torchic. Torchic really wants to tera, but with Vullaby in the tier I feel this trait is overblown some, considering Vullaby targets glimmet and chinchou, and can tech most Mudbray with Adamant nature and/or Steel types with Heat Wave. This makes it very practical to force damage on the most common fire resists for torchic, who is very likely to at least force a tera and damage/status because of that considering that it cannot be out offensed if it gets in.Council member kythr reporting for duty
Here are my metagame opinions, ordered from what I feel strongest about to least:
Magby
This guy is not healthy for the metagame whatsoever, and needs to go ASAP. It's one of the fastest viable mons in the tier, hits too hard, and has too viable many offensive sets — of which I find most problematic to be fire blast/psychic/tera blast grass/(sub or protect). With these three coverage moves Magby can hit all of Mienfoo, Mudbray, Foongus, Glimmet, Mareanie, Dig-A, Tink, Toed, Chou, Snowshrew, etc. for super effective damage. These mons typically encompass 4-5 slots on a standard balance team, and incude every mon on the viability rankings listed A- and up, save itself, Vullaby and Stunky. These latter two obviously don't appreciate a fire blast to the face either, but can also be dealt with Magby's second set, will-o-wisp. Tera psychic can also be used for a quick kill on Foo, Glimm and Mare without the need for knocking evio, and can prevent Goth from revenging it. In the recent LCBC weeks I've seen people even resort to (otherwise terrible mons in my opinion) Shellos, and Slowpoke to switch into fire blasts and psychics. Both these guys still get obliterated by tera grass. The only true viable counterplay to special Magby is running spdef tera dragon on mons like Bray or Foo... but we all remember the last mon that necessitated this type of defensive reaction, and look at what happened to him.
This is all to say that Magby is running a special attacking set. I don't think people have caught on as much yet, but I can very clearly foresee a future in which Magby gets a free turn in on Foongus, and you switch to your max spdef tera dragon Mudbray, only for the Magby to tera ghost belly drum... I know oran berry isn't berry juice, but there's a reason Magby is banned in SS.
I'd also like to share a few quick stats from the first 3 weeks of LCBC to help substantiate my arguments, but firstly thank you Eseque for compiling all this data for public use.
- Through 3 weeks Magby has been using 22 times, 7th most.
- Magby has a 68% (15/22) winrate. The next highest of any mon in the top 10 usage wise is 61% (Tink).
- There were exactly 2 instances of Magby vs Magby games. Discounting these 4 uses, Magby's winrate increases to 72% (13/18).
- This means there were only 5 out of 18 times in which a team not using Magby beat a Magby using team.
Obviously usage stats and winrates are not the whole story, but they are at least part of the story. In my opinion an adjusted 72% winrate is pretty absurd, and demonstrates that the risk vs reward benefit for using this mon is greater than what should be healthy for a metagame. The reward obviously being you get to hit >2/3rds of the viable meta for super effective damage by just clicking what's in front of you, and the risk really only being missing a fire blast.
To sum up, Magby is too strong and fast of a mon for LC to handle right now. Because of its set variability and coverage options, defensive counter is near non-existent, and the risk vs reward benefit is so great that it's hard to justify not using it on most teams. Magby needs to be suspect tested ASAP and I will be voting ban.
Foongus
Agree with everything ghost said here, no point in reiterating. Not sure what our tier leader is on about regarding the technical sleep clause argument though. I know it's not going to happen, but I cringe at the thought of us turning into VGC and running safety goggles on every other mon lol.
Chespin
My favorite mon in the meta right now! If you know me as a player then you know that I don't typically use mons just for fun, or just because they're funny — I genuinely think this guy is more than viable and if I was still on VR coucil I'd probably rank him around B+. Some people might call using Chespin a fish, but I'd counter by asking if it's really a fish if almost every balance team currently has either a Foongus or Mudbray on it, if not both? He's got some cool 4th more tech options too that I've explored more after my little super fang fiasco, such as drain punch to goob Snowshrews. I will admit he's pretty restrictive in the builder, but I think Chespin's a great anti-meta pick that deserves to be explored more.
Torchic
I don't think Torchic is broken right now, but could be convinced in the future if Magby gets banned and people start spamming it on broken structures. The difference I find between Magby and Torchic is Torchic's reliance on tera. For Torchic to break through any of its checks (ie. Chou, Glimm, Mare) it needs to tera, while Magby can hit these for big damage with a raw psychic. Furthermore, Chic is fully checked by well played pure water teras (Foo, Bray, Foongus), whereas Magby can break through these with tera grass, as discussed earlier.
Shellder
I've been praying on this mon's banishment to the shadow realm for the better part of two years now, but at the moment it's towards the bottom of my agenda. Even moreso than Magby, it has too many offensive sets (physical/special, protect/sub, tera ghost/fairy/water/rock/ice/electric/stellar, liquidation/rock blast/icicle spear/ice shard) for it to be healthy. Shellder turns matches into guessing games and can sweep your entire team with the correct tera/move combination without you being able to do anything about it. If this thing picks up in usage again perhaps I'll make another post.
Sun
I have no opinion on sun at the moment. I have neither played with or against sun enough to lean one way or the other. Looking forward to reading more opinions on sun if this becomes a more potent topic of discussion.
ghost you owe me a smooch now.
Torchic also has more tera versatility than people give it credit for. Tera Ground/Psychic are the most common due to their breaking power vs glimmet and other fires (especially if a substitute gets used on the switch), but its far from the only option. Tera Grass is also plenty good, it targets Tera Water and Chinchou while still dealing significant damage to Glimmet and Mareanie. Tera Fairy is a mu fish, but few things are more brutal than a tera dragon being punished with a 6-0 because your mienfoo and vullaby were also ohkoed when you tried to tera dragon your Foongus because fire type switch ins don't exist in this tier. Magby can use these tera types even better than torchic can to break, however I can at least hope to threaten it with a choice scarfer, elekid, or if its really dire a speed tie in addition to stuff that can live a hit.
Magby is definitely better overall in my opinion due to its immediate speed and access to Psychic, and it is probably also broken too. to me, Torchic is more broken because there is a complete lack of offensive counterplay that would work vs Magby and therefore I feel like I have less options as a player and in the builder to stop it, even though it has to work much harder to get turns than Magby does.
off topic, but chespin is like b or b- to me. its too big a struggle in a metagame with defog vullaby, mienfoo, fire types, stunky, etc to make life difficult for it. beating foongus long term while setting spikes is an amazing trait, but it is dangerously passive and has to spend turns healing if it is used vs mudbray.
If every fast offensive mon becomes problematic after the last one is banned, maybe it's time to turn to tera. The power level has slowly been going down to the point pokemon like wingull, elekid and chespin are real, and we're still apparently not that close to stability, given the varied topics people see as problematic (sun, sleep, magby, torchic). The reasons why magby would be a problem sound pretty similar to why torb got banned, its fast, has coverage, and tera on top of that coverage makes it so hard to deal with. I think continuing to ban individual mons is a neverending race to the bottom and a drastic but swift solution can help us out here.
I agree with everything ksg and kythr said before.
Resuming:
- Spore isn’t broken (grass mons / sub steel mons / vital spirit mons / overcoat vulla / safety shrew-a / sleep talk mons / glimmet after rocks up);
- Magby should be suspected (versatile fast mon too many different sets: tera grass / sub / tera psychic / Mach punch / wow evio / protect / bdrum, guessing the right set in game is annoying and could make you lose that game if you predict bad his set);
- Sun is unhealthy consequently Heat Rock should be suspected (there is no skill clicking stab so imo it’s unhealthy for the meta + 5 turns of sun should be manageable instead of 8) (thanks to heat rock, the real problem is bulbasaur cuz most of mons have tera water instead of tera dragon for blocking meta trends like shrew-a, shellder and fires. This is the reason why bulba seems strong on sun);
- Torchic isn’t broken for now (I still think torchic is slightly worse than magby since you have to tera to kill his counters and has less sets than magby all related to the different tera you are using).
Council suspect Magby and heat rock please.
Resuming:
- Spore isn’t broken (grass mons / sub steel mons / vital spirit mons / overcoat vulla / safety shrew-a / sleep talk mons / glimmet after rocks up);
- Magby should be suspected (versatile fast mon too many different sets: tera grass / sub / tera psychic / Mach punch / wow evio / protect / bdrum, guessing the right set in game is annoying and could make you lose that game if you predict bad his set);
- Sun is unhealthy consequently Heat Rock should be suspected (there is no skill clicking stab so imo it’s unhealthy for the meta + 5 turns of sun should be manageable instead of 8) (thanks to heat rock, the real problem is bulbasaur cuz most of mons have tera water instead of tera dragon for blocking meta trends like shrew-a, shellder and fires. This is the reason why bulba seems strong on sun);
- Torchic isn’t broken for now (I still think torchic is slightly worse than magby since you have to tera to kill his counters and has less sets than magby all related to the different tera you are using).
Council suspect Magby and heat rock please.
Well, this is going to be my FIRST post since I started playing on this site, so I’m not exactly sure where to begin. Please ignore any repetition in relation to previous posts or any nonsense I might say below. Before you wonder who the hell I am or if I even play LC, well, maybe you’re right. But I’d like to share a bit about my journey in LC so far.
(You can skip all of this and get straight to the point)
My first real contact with LC in this generation was during the LC Majors, where I reached the semifinals. After that, I was drafted for the LCPL as a sub initially, but I ended up becoming a starter and finished with a 3-3 record in SV. Later, I won the LC Last Chance and qualified for the circuit, which, to everyone’s surprise (I think) and mine as well, I ended up reaching the finals. At the moment, I’m playing in the LCBC.
Foongus – In my opinion, this Pokémon is definitely not fair. Every time it enters the field, the sequence of events is the same, leading to a Foongus vs. Foongus mirror that’s extremely boring. But in my view, the real problem is Spore. It’s no coincidence that sleep moves are banned in almost every official tier of course i dont want to compare LC to OU or smth but this mechanic is clearly unfair. The possibility of waking up between 1-4 turns randomly is completely ridiculous, which invalidates responses like "you can just use Sleep Talk" as it doesnt seem very reliable.
Snivy – I remember doing the suspect test for this a long time ago, but im not sure how it would perform in the current meta think its worth retesting Snivy, though I believe this is probably a pretty unpopular opinion i dont think it would be broken in the current meta, where we have Pokémon like Alolan Digglet, Torchic, and Magby running free.
Magby - definitely deserves a suspect test right after the end of the LCBC an extremely fast and strong Pokémon with coverage to beat all the current meta trends, which is definitely broken. The main issue to
I havent read many posts regarding the metagame before this but i agree with most of the posts Ive seen and remember.
Anyway, I mainly wanted to introduce myself formally to the community LC is a metagame I’ve been actively playing for a while, and it has been, and continues to be, a lot of fun participating in tournaments in this community Magby limits teambuilding and for me this is what differentiates a very good mon to simply broken mon.
(You can skip all of this and get straight to the point)
My first real contact with LC in this generation was during the LC Majors, where I reached the semifinals. After that, I was drafted for the LCPL as a sub initially, but I ended up becoming a starter and finished with a 3-3 record in SV. Later, I won the LC Last Chance and qualified for the circuit, which, to everyone’s surprise (I think) and mine as well, I ended up reaching the finals. At the moment, I’m playing in the LCBC.
Foongus – In my opinion, this Pokémon is definitely not fair. Every time it enters the field, the sequence of events is the same, leading to a Foongus vs. Foongus mirror that’s extremely boring. But in my view, the real problem is Spore. It’s no coincidence that sleep moves are banned in almost every official tier of course i dont want to compare LC to OU or smth but this mechanic is clearly unfair. The possibility of waking up between 1-4 turns randomly is completely ridiculous, which invalidates responses like "you can just use Sleep Talk" as it doesnt seem very reliable. Snivy – I remember doing the suspect test for this a long time ago, but im not sure how it would perform in the current meta think its worth retesting Snivy, though I believe this is probably a pretty unpopular opinion i dont think it would be broken in the current meta, where we have Pokémon like Alolan Digglet, Torchic, and Magby running free. Magby - definitely deserves a suspect test right after the end of the LCBC an extremely fast and strong Pokémon with coverage to beat all the current meta trends, which is definitely broken. The main issue toI havent read many posts regarding the metagame before this but i agree with most of the posts Ive seen and remember.
Anyway, I mainly wanted to introduce myself formally to the community LC is a metagame I’ve been actively playing for a while, and it has been, and continues to be, a lot of fun participating in tournaments in this community Magby limits teambuilding and for me this is what differentiates a very good mon to simply broken mon.
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So, today I want to make a post sharing some thoughts about the current problems of the metagame and how they can be solved in my opinion.
Firstly, I wanna talk about the 2 biggest offensive threats of the metagame right now.
Magby is too threatening with its Fire Blast + Psychic moveset, which 
and 
can switch into, but even then both will lose to Will-o-Wisp, Tera Grass, or even Tera Psychic with a little bit of chip damage. Magby has almost none defensive counterplay, while also being faster than almost all of the metagame, besides a random Elekid and scarfers, that besides Foo and Goth, aren't in a good spot in the metagame.
Torchic
is also an offensive Fire-Type, but unlike Magby, it doesn't have coverage to hit Water-Types, having to rely on Tera Blast, but with Speed Boost, Torchic is almost impossible to revenge kill, due to its strong 17 SpA stat + Life Orb, a boosted Speed stat and Protect to scout a possible tera/outspeed a scarfer.
Those two are great users of Tera, and also are also good at forcing and opposing Tera. Knowing that, it's clear that Tera helps both of these Pokémon to be stronger than they should in the metagame, while being used offensively or even defensively, like in this game https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-813915
But, banning Tera isn't an option due to various reasons that are too complicated/I'm not smart enough, so my proposal is:
Suspecting Tera Blast.
With Tera Blast possibly being banned, Torchic will be irrelevant, since it wouldn't have coverage anymore, Magby wont be able to hit water types like chinchou and shellos - or tera water.
Also, with a potential tera blast ban, there's 2 pokemon that could potentially be healthy to the metagame, and would help against the common threats and should be retested.
Voltorb-Hisui
without tera, this mon isn't that scary, and even though it forces weird interactions with Mienfoo, it cant tera psychic blast to KO it, neither Tera Ice to KO toedscool or Foongus. Also being a 20 Speed Pokémon, it would limit a lot the Magby interactions.
Porygon
lost access to tri attack, and with tera blast banned it wouldnt have a STAB, which is terrible for the offensive set, which was the one that got it banned. Defensive Porygon would be a good addition to the metagame and possibly healthy, but needs to be tested since without pawniard being relevant, steel types are Rare.
These are my thoughts about the current state of the meta and thats why I think a Tera Blast suspect should be discussed and its ban would be really healthy.
Firstly, I wanna talk about the 2 biggest offensive threats of the metagame right now.
Magby
is too threatening with its Fire Blast + Psychic moveset, which and can switch into, but even then both will lose to Will-o-Wisp, Tera Grass, or even Tera Psychic with a little bit of chip damage. Magby has almost none defensive counterplay, while also being faster than almost all of the metagame, besides a random Elekid and scarfers, that besides Foo and Goth, aren't in a good spot in the metagame.Torchic
is also an offensive Fire-Type, but unlike Magby, it doesn't have coverage to hit Water-Types, having to rely on Tera Blast, but with Speed Boost, Torchic is almost impossible to revenge kill, due to its strong 17 SpA stat + Life Orb, a boosted Speed stat and Protect to scout a possible tera/outspeed a scarfer.Those two are great users of Tera, and also are also good at forcing and opposing Tera. Knowing that, it's clear that Tera helps both of these Pokémon to be stronger than they should in the metagame, while being used offensively or even defensively, like in this game https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-813915
But, banning Tera isn't an option due to various reasons that are too complicated/I'm not smart enough, so my proposal is:
Suspecting Tera Blast.
With Tera Blast possibly being banned, Torchic will be irrelevant, since it wouldn't have coverage anymore, Magby wont be able to hit water types like chinchou and shellos - or tera water.
Also, with a potential tera blast ban, there's 2 pokemon that could potentially be healthy to the metagame, and would help against the common threats and should be retested.
Voltorb-Hisui
without tera, this mon isn't that scary, and even though it forces weird interactions with Mienfoo, it cant tera psychic blast to KO it, neither Tera Ice to KO toedscool or Foongus. Also being a 20 Speed Pokémon, it would limit a lot the Magby interactions.Porygon
lost access to tri attack, and with tera blast banned it wouldnt have a STAB, which is terrible for the offensive set, which was the one that got it banned. Defensive Porygon would be a good addition to the metagame and possibly healthy, but needs to be tested since without pawniard being relevant, steel types are Rare.These are my thoughts about the current state of the meta and thats why I think a Tera Blast suspect should be discussed and its ban would be really healthy.
100% support tera blast ban
Every mon that is considered borderline broken rn and every mon that got banned all run/ran tera blast
Snivy and Diglett could also be suspected back into the tier without tera blast
Every mon that is considered borderline broken rn and every mon that got banned all run/ran tera blast
Snivy and Diglett could also be suspected back into the tier without tera blast
stop posting with :mons: its terrible to read it :((
peace
i think right now, as of 17/01/2025, magby is broken. we have little to no defensive counterplay, every supposed check loses to one of tera blast grass, tera psychic or will o wisp, and every alleged offensive check loses to defensive tera (psychic or ghost), will o wisp, mach punch, sub, protect or surprise evio. it is relatively easy to get hazards off now, because sandshrew alola is really good, and toed + defog vull are as good as ever, so that magby weakness is kinda alleviated there, making it closer to broken.
however i think we should wait on it, at least until the entire tour ends. at the end of the day, magby is still a pokemon that has a rocks weakness, wears itself down with life orb and has coverage issues. yes, at the moment those are really negligible, but as we optimize our counterplay, they could become relevant again. i remember feeling exactly like this when we banned voltorb, thinking diglett alola was impossible to check, and now no one cares about it like that. i think a mon as offensive as this is better as a new threat, and so i would give it time. it is broken now, but we should only ban it if it keeps being broken in a month when lcbc ends and we have had time to develop new counterplay
however i think we should wait on it, at least until the entire tour ends. at the end of the day, magby is still a pokemon that has a rocks weakness, wears itself down with life orb and has coverage issues. yes, at the moment those are really negligible, but as we optimize our counterplay, they could become relevant again. i remember feeling exactly like this when we banned voltorb, thinking diglett alola was impossible to check, and now no one cares about it like that. i think a mon as offensive as this is better as a new threat, and so i would give it time. it is broken now, but we should only ban it if it keeps being broken in a month when lcbc ends and we have had time to develop new counterplay
this archetype is new to you guys. you might think im about to say the same about sun as ive said about magby, but youd be wrong. in your eyes, sun (
) is a newer thing, discovered in lcbc. it isnt. ive had the displeasure of helping test that time since its inception pre-lcpl. i lost every time. sun is unbeatable. nothing reliably checks bulbasaur and torchic together. get rid of it, it removes playing skill, not via matchup fishing, but by purely being way too good and way too easy
) is a newer thing, discovered in lcbc. it isnt. ive had the displeasure of helping test that time since its inception pre-lcpl. i lost every time. sun is unbeatable. nothing reliably checks bulbasaur and torchic together. get rid of it, it removes playing skill, not via matchup fishing, but by purely being way too good and way too easytera blast ban is stupid, not engaging with that. shellder is as broken as ever imo but its not a pressing issue at all atm. ban tera
peace
It should also be noted that Snivy is probably balanced if Tera Blast goes as that pokemon heavily relied on it for any sort of coverage. It genuinely does not get a single good non grass special moveSo, today I want to make a post sharing some thoughts about the current problems of the metagame and how they can be solved in my opinion.
Firstly, I wanna talk about the 2 biggest offensive threats of the metagame right now.
Magby
Torchic
Those two are great users of Tera, and also are also good at forcing and opposing Tera. Knowing that, it's clear that Tera helps both of these Pokémon to be stronger than they should in the metagame, while being used offensively or even defensively, like in this game https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-813915
But, banning Tera isn't an option due to various reasons that are too complicated/I'm not smart enough, so my proposal is:
Suspecting Tera Blast.
With Tera Blast possibly being banned, Torchic will be irrelevant, since it wouldn't have coverage anymore, Magby wont be able to hit water types like chinchou and shellos - or tera water.
Also, with a potential tera blast ban, there's 2 pokemon that could potentially be healthy to the metagame, and would help against the common threats and should be retested.
Voltorb-Hisui
Porygon
These are my thoughts about the current state of the meta and thats why I think a Tera Blast suspect should be discussed and its ban would be really healthy.
I would like to talk about my least favorite part about the metagame (and why i hate it)
/- Sun is absolutely stupid and skilless and should be quick banned. A lot of people have made great points about its unhealthiness but in summary broken fire types and bulba + a shift away from tera dragon makes sun counterplay subpar like tera dragon 
(
and generally better teras) or just a shitmon 
( this mon is bad its only being used because its good into the brokens ) .
I want to now go over the uses of sun in the most recent lc team tour (LCBC).
W1 Larry vs Onraider
From preview this looked like a pretty easy clean for but due to the vull tech not hitting and pretty poor luck (spore and missing moves) on onraiders end he lost.
W2 DC vs Vooper
Another game that 6-0s from preview with DC only losing due to the insane tech of 
( feels very mu fishy imo) and a poorly played end game concluding in a 
acid spray/surf 50/50 that he lost.
W2 Mok3s vs sufys
Sufys clicks sunny days then the stab button 10 times and wins, truly a amazing game.
W3 Ghost vs Juansg
Honestly a really well played game from juansg but shows its stupidity by muscling through .
W3 Django vs Corckscrew
Bulbasaur doing things and taking 3 kos with a pretty easy cleanup from .
W4 BlackKnightGawain vs Nashrock
No comment needed just watch the game.
What these replays have taught us :
Sun has shown to be very dominant in the games it was bring with the only games it losing being to either poor play/luck or specific anti sun techs. The games it has won have been very dominant with little to no skill being needed to win those games with Juans game being an exception. This has also shown us that bulbasaur is the reincarnation of king von and probably sukunas vessel and should be banned or at least limited asap. Ive put a visual aid to help all the boomers understand
To end this off, council please quickban bulbasaur/heat rock and save us from this awful disgrace of a teamstyle.
TLDR : Sun made me hate this tier, my life and killed my family so the rest should come next.
/- Sun is absolutely stupid and skilless and should be quick banned. A lot of people have made great points about its unhealthiness but in summary broken fire types and bulba + a shift away from tera dragon makes sun counterplay subpar like tera dragon ( and generally better teras) or just a shitmon ( this mon is bad its only being used because its good into the brokens ) .I want to now go over the uses of sun in the most recent lc team tour (LCBC).
W1 Larry vs Onraider
From preview this looked like a pretty easy clean for
but due to the vull tech not hitting and pretty poor luck (spore and missing moves) on onraiders end he lost.W2 DC vs Vooper
Another game that
6-0s from preview with DC only losing due to the insane tech of ( feels very mu fishy imo) and a poorly played end game concluding in a acid spray/surf 50/50 that he lost.W2 Mok3s vs sufys
Sufys clicks sunny days then the stab button 10 times and wins, truly a amazing game.
W3 Ghost vs Juansg
Honestly a really well played game from juansg but
shows its stupidity by muscling through .W3 Django vs Corckscrew
Bulbasaur doing
things and taking 3 kos with a pretty easy cleanup from .W4 BlackKnightGawain vs Nashrock
No comment needed just watch the game.
What these replays have taught us :
Sun has shown to be very dominant in the games it was bring with the only games it losing being to either poor play/luck or specific anti sun techs. The games it has won have been very dominant with little to no skill being needed to win those games with Juans game being an exception. This has also shown us that bulbasaur is the reincarnation of king von and probably sukunas vessel and should be banned or at least limited asap. Ive put a visual aid to help all the boomers understand
To end this off, council please quickban bulbasaur/heat rock and save us from this awful disgrace of a teamstyle.
TLDR : Sun made me hate this tier, my life and killed my family so the rest should come next.