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I remember that turskain called it "an interesting choice" back when I was just starting my Subway adventure and had no idea what I was doing. Now it's finally vindicated.
Backstory: I tried the Gengar team from my last post again but lost very quickly (double RS miss lol) and wondered whether a different structure might work better. JetSawk proved the integrity of the Steel + Water backline with a Scarfer + LOer in front; the Scrafty team showed how good Landorus + Electric upfront with a backline Water-type can be. Do we really need the Water to float? It's usually switching in for Landorus anyway. The frontliner must float, though -- and Thundurus is an easy choice; not only does it provide Grass Knot over Zapdos, but also the coveted 111 Speed tier. What does it matter that my leads are both Blizzard-weak, Froslass -- and by extension most anything else -- won't ever get to attack, and things like Vaporeon or Lapras, which formerly mandated slow play with a Rotom switch, now just get KO'd by U-turn + TBolt too. (Do not ask about Quick Claw Glaceon. It's only on certain trainers since it's set1, but both Ice Workers and Nursery Aides, the latter of which I've learned to respect, use it and it's horrible. But more in a minute.)
Settling on a Water-type was tougher -- gen5 does not lack competition. Obviously it needs to attack with Scald and wield Sitrus Berry, or we could just have Lum Rotom-W again (Electric-type is "pure profit" for it -- there are no downsides at all). Suicune should always be the first consideration -- it's reasonably fast, takes over games with Calm Mind, but also has enough power and bulk off the bat to 2HKO the natural prey of Water-types and live through it. Everything else is measured by its distance to Cune: Milotic has Recover and Haze, but low Defense unless it invests to the detriment of its SpA. Blastoise has Fake Out, but less of everything else (Water Spout is obviously not an argument on TW-less teams). Empoleon dies to EQ -- no thanks (Empoleon is cool on other teams, though; see note at the end). Gastrodon has a great ability for Landorus support and offers more Electric insurance (note how weak the team is to Electric when Lando dies), but is Ice-neutral -- too risky. Politoed powers up opposing Waters and Rain trainers in particular -- really bad (I would have lost at least one particular endgame to Kingdra with Politoed). Starmie is fast, but frail and still kind of weak for the bulk tradeoff. Which leaves us with Vaporeon. It might not seem to do anything special, but it has everything a good Water needs: it is bulky enough to excellently exploit Sitrus Berry while also taking <50% from Lando's EQ (important because it should not die to a crit), hits for more than anything else, and offers "priority" in Helping Hand that leeches off the effective speed and power of its partner. Since the team around Vap is all speedy offense, this is a great fit -- it most commonly boosts Bullet Punch, but sealing endgames can occur with anything next to it.
The choice of Steel is pretty self-explanatory: Scizor kills Ice better than any other Steel except maybe Metagross, which would be weak to EQ. Lum would sometimes be nice to have, but I prefer Steel Gem for versatility (and the HH combo). Freeze to Scizor is usually not the end of the world, either, since it at least stops Ices defensively as well and Vap gets time to soften them up with Scald. The team's "Rock resist" is thus Intimidate, but you can manage; Rock coverage is usually on Grounds and Rocks, which don't get much chance to even fire their attacks, and something like Ampharos Power Gem is pretty much moot because it could just blast the team with Electric moves anyway.
Blizzard is actually still pretty bad. Vap's hour to shine came when it defeated Flareon + Quick Claw Glaceon from a Nursery Aide, Mirror Coat notwithstanding, in a 1-2 situation (which was 3-2 before EXTREME KILLER GLACEON toggled, obviously). Then Battle #300 was vs. a Janitor packing Abomasnow / Absol / Articuno / Empoleon, Swagger plus triple Blizzard (I U-turned T1 for fear of a Fly miss, which might have been overcautious). I barely got out alive and probably only because Thundurus did not hit itself on a crucial turn. If the Eruption Entei / Typhlosion ever crits Lando T1, there is most likely trouble as well.
The loss occurred to Garchomp / Archeops / Haxorus / Salamence (Biker). Garchomp was Scarfed and killed Lando with crit Outrage. Haxorus came in for the KO'd Archeops, and I had no chance against double Outrage spam unless I had gotten lucky with targeting. (Garchomp didn't hit itself and immediately snapped out of confusion right afterwards, Haxorus had Persim Berry).
Anyhow, there you have 300 with Scarf Lando-T -- it can be done, as I had assumed previously. Maybe not with Rotom ;)
tldr: This is my legacy: Water good, Electric/Ground good, priority good, balance good.
PS. I also tried Froslass (with backline Empoleon + Latios, and Scarf Lando-Incarnate -- still with U-turn, though), mostly for curiosity about how much work Destiny Bond does for the Gengar team. It did roughly as well as Froslass will ever do (169 wins). As mentioned, Empoleon is pretty cool, compressing the Water/Steel backline into a single slot, taking SE only from what Lando resists/is immune to, and bashing Ices with Flash Cannon (don't use IB, Scald/Grass Knot/Flash Cannon is best). The loss occurred to a legendary trainer with triple genies and DMeteor Latias -- just too much outspeeding going on (for added fatality, my Latios had 30 Spe IV HP Fire) and Empo being dead to Thundurus TBolt in the endgame.
PPS. I think Sableye is a cool suggestion in a vacuum but unfortunately doesn't seem like the choice for Lando -- takes too much damage from EQ (unless Air Balloon lol -- I guess it could get away with that) and Gravity isn't so great either (you don't want to take away your own team's crucial immunities), if anything I'd use it for FO, priority Leer and guaranteed Froslass dunking with Sucker Punch + Lando's attack. Add Recover in slot 4 (Prankster Recover so good). Still pretty passive, unfortunately -- same reason why I don't like to use things like Alomomola.
PPS. I think Sableye is a cool suggestion in a vacuum but unfortunately doesn't seem like the choice for Lando -- takes too much damage from EQ (unless Air Balloon lol -- I guess it could get away with that) and Gravity isn't so great either (you don't want to take away your own team's crucial immunities), if anything I'd use it for FO, priority Leer and guaranteed Froslass dunking with Sucker Punch + Lando's attack. Add Recover in slot 4 (Prankster Recover so good). Still pretty passive, unfortunately -- same reason why I don't like to use things like Alomomola.
Yeah, probably Sableye with Gravity would need a bit of a different team (although I think with Landorus-T it still may be a viable combination). Maybe in the subway it would be rather passive. I play it in online battles gen 6 Doubles and Will-O-Wisp is just so good (I win many battles with Charge Beam Blissey in the end, and yes, this is doubles). I guess Knock Off is the other reason why it never feels passive, so yeah, maybe it's too weak in gen5. I just thought of it because the backrows of your teams to me seem to be built a bit more on the defensive, well balanced side and may enjoy some burn or other support, compared to many other teams who just hit hard and fast.
Gravity is probably better with Lando-I than T. Could be worth trying, but the issue is that I don't see it surpassing the Scrafty team. Lando really appreciates Electric co-leads and Scrafty does much of what Sableye does more reliably / more actively. Intimidate is just better than Prankster WoW for the most part, not least because of accuracy.
You're right that my preferred style has fast offense up front, defensive options in the back. Even 4K kind of does this if you count Kangaskhan as defensive. That said, you can see why I'm not a fan of frontline Sableye from this description. An item-boosted Electric is simply too good with Lando. If I was to try FO with this team, I would probably default to Sitrus Berry Blastoise in Vap's place because the Water + Lando / Water + Scizor synergy is hard to deny. But, consider: Vaporeon cute.
I do agree Sableye has potential but I haven't yet found the team for it. Blissey sounds like a cool synergistic wincon, yeah. Could probably even be the classic GG Unit Minimize Chansey, it seems like it takes roughly as long to win as Charge Beam does.
Edit: Btw, the loss mentioned above was probably avoidable by clicking SD with Scizor first (I BP'd Haxorus for <50%, which I definitely didn't expect -- no set lookup "stupidity" / negligence strikes again). Steel Gem +2 Bullet Punch has a range to OHKO the (ridiculous) 168 HP / 168 Def Haxorus, which would have saved me even with Salamence subsequently Intimidating Scizor back down, I think -- Thund might have taken -1 Outrage from Chomp but unless that crit again, it wasn't an OHKO and Thund could have OHKO'd non-Yache Mence before it moved, after which Garchomp should lose alone although I think +1 BP without Gem is a 3HKO.
Yes, actually I play Landorus-I in that team, with LO and Earthpower, Focus Blast, HP Ice, Protect. Focus Blast also gets the Sheer Force Boost, its insane. Under Gravtiy it OHKOs considerably more mons than Specs Latios, if you take the subway sets for reference. I would play this with Sableye in the subway, but I have no access to Landorus. I played this cool Team here from flav0r a while ago and thought about some variation, as it was weak against fast electrics.
Haha, Vaporeon <3
I see your points with electrics and Scrafty.
For the doubles Blissey, it's not as passive as it may seem. It has 252 SAtk and Blizzard (and Softboiled + Aromatherapy). Landorus-T often think they can switch in on this. A lot of things in this meta don't like to be hit by Blizzards, even when they are weak at first. And due to Gravity they never miss. Blissey is a nice win condition as killing or burning the physical attackers usually is sufficient for the win, but it often already pressures the opponent as the battles goes.
266 wins with Gyaraichu (PKHeX'd as always). Lost an engineered 1v1 with +2 Scizor vs Milotic (Ice Beam froze immediately, no thaw in 5 turns), but had already lived through a miraculous salvage at ~235 where +2 Scizor 1v3'd the opposition thanks to the only mon that could have given the win (?) appearing last, Sitrus Berry Gothitelle (snacking the berry was vital). The computer does not respect Lightning Rod, which gives you free wins every so often. The team features a Water/Electric/Ground triangle + Water/Ground/Scizor triangle once again. Lando also floats, which has obvious synergy with Raichu; Ground is needed because Raichu won't be around forever to deflect Electric. SD Scizor is better than Metagross here (also for opposing Def/evasion boosters). The strangely specific Gyara spread is to reach 134 Speed and get 2HKO'd by Glaceon Blizzard (which I lost the first attempt to) <5% of the time, factoring in Waterfall flinch and accuracy. Water + Normal gives good neutral coverage (of all the Subway foes, only Empoleon and Ferrothorn resist both attacks). While Raichu is seriously weak, it still has enough power to KO Walrein4 with TBolt after +1 Return chip.
Scrafty's Solar Empire (PKHeX'd) wins 197. This is only the second-best Sun record, but I don't think anyone has tried Charizard, so it's worth reporting. Solar Power Heat Wave is exactly as strong as Typhlosion's Eruption, but it can miss (the trade-off is that Charizard's coverage is much stronger and you can actually switch it into things without worrying about Eruption BP). Dragon Pulse has a ~30% shot to OHKO Latios in sun (guaranteed with Fake Out chip, although I don't like FOing Latios because it's better if it spends Draco Meteor right away), so I chose it over HP Ice. I found that Ninetales is very good at taking 85-90% damage and surviving, thus no Life Orb here -- instead, we have the FO-enabled Nasty Plot, which can amp up the damage to seal a game immediately if both opposing leads are slower than Tales and can't both status it badly. I would have liked HP Rock or Ice but there's no room -- Protect is ultimately much more valuable. The other moveset choices are pretty obvious; HP Ground particularly helps with Flash Fire mons (Heatran foremost, although I think I didn't see a single Heatran on this streak) but is the best choice anyway. Scrafty notably has Payback here because that guarantees an OHKO on uninvested Lati@s (unlike Crunch), Trick Room doesn't really enter the picture (and when it did, Scrafty was usually slower in TR than the Psychic threats).
I played really well on this streak, I think -- lots of close calls where good decisions made the difference. The losing battle is worth a closer description:
Clerk (male) sends out Mienshao / Aerodactyl (set3). I know I'm in danger.
T1: Click FO Aero, Solar Beam Aero. Mienshao FOs Scrafty, Rock Gem RS goes through, Ninetales takes ~75% (Scrafty obviously takes pittance), does not flinch. Solar Beam rolls low, but that doesn't matter (min is 45%).
T2: Click Protect with Scrafty, switch Ninetales to Latios. This may have been a mistake, as Latios is often more worthwhile than Ninetales, but hard to say. In a match where I have to come back from a bad lead, Tales may be better since Heat Wave hits both foes (usually). Still, in all scenarios where Shao does not crit Latios with HJK, this is better because I can sacrifice Tales next turn while Latios Protects, and then Latios can get rid of Aerodactyl and be well-positioned to also chip Mienshao down to Sash on the following turn, while Scrafty doesn't die to -2 HJK.
Aero uses RS, Latios takes chip (20-25%). Mienshao uses HJK... into Latios. Crit! KO (crit does 84% min). Okay.
I send Charizard (what else).
T3: Deliberating that Solar Beaming Aero will lead to All My Friends Are Dead Syndrome, more so since Scrafty cannot Protect this turn and needs to switch into Tales to avoid the (possible, not guaranteed) -1 HJK OHKO (Shao is Sashed, so I cannot prevent it unless Air Slash flinches it, but Air Slash is obviously a bad lock here anyway) and reset Fake Out/Inti, which I might direly need yet, I click Heat Wave and switch, knowing that Wave does 56% min to Aero and this is not the Wide Guard Mienshao.
Heat Wave misses Aero, lol. Rock Slide kills Tales + Zard (Zard had 50% to survive RS but would always have died to Solar Power). No mistake; if I hadn't switched out Scrafty, Tales would have died next turn anyway. Simply bad luck on the right play.
T4: Scrafty alone vs three mons, can it still win? The Clerk sends out Blissey3. This seems almost survivable, but Blissey immediately clicks Counter into my Drain Punch (does not OHKO) and I lose. I might have been better off killing Aero first, but chances were grim either way.
The loss makes Heat Wave look really bad. In truth, consider that it took nearly 200 battles for its miss chance to matter -- that's how good it usually is. Thrower would have lost much earlier. I'm sure Heat Wave won't be cracking 1000 any time soon, but that's not why I play.
"At an angel I hit,
and a demon's entangled
in the haze of my net."
(Nabokov, "The Hawkmoth")
The wonderful, the captivating, the majestic Volcarona allies with a novel Hitmontop build to set new standards. I had previously always used 252 SpA / Spe Focus Sash Volc on minor Doubles streaks, but it could not perform all that well. Yet with the "Ray Rizzo principle" (invest in your bad stats) and an also Rizzo-esque Charti Berry (resist berries remain somewhat underexplored in Doubles across all gens), Volcarona unlocks more of its potential than ever before. 260 wins with MothTop, bolstered by the ever-reliable "CoeurCune" (HP Grass, Sitrus, my favorite) and... this Latios looks strange, doesn't it? I thought that Red Jet was more suited to setup than her brother due to higher defenses; running only Dragon attacks is very feasible when the rest of the team removes Steel-types with acuity. You will often not click Psych Up, either; Gem (i.e. "+1") Draco hits roughly as hard as Latios' LO DPulse anyway, and when accuracy matters, Gem DPulse will probably be enough chip to 2HKO with the next hit (and Latias' defenses make it survive until then).
I have previously always been disappointed with Top -- Mach Punch hits for too little and CC defense drops make it die to the next incoming hit. But when you notice that it has no real use for its common items (Fighting Gem: often overkill; Sitrus Berry: often doesn't prevent 2HKOs, and has competition from other team members who need it more), you might develop the idea to unlock its strongest Fighting STAB with Wide Lens. And, as a bonus, you get a pretty accurate Rock move that rounds out its coverage nicely -- and, together with Intimidate and Tailwind, gives you counterplay against Flying-types, which is direly needed because nothing on the team resists Flying. Hitmontop does get a good priority move over Scrafty; what's more, a weakness to Psychic-types is more manageable with Bug Buzz support than one to Fighting-types (Latias switches into both equally well anyway, except that Psychic is often special and thus hits Latias on its stronger defensive stat). The Rock resistance is, of course, very useful with Volcarona alongside.
Tailwind makes this team much more consistent, especially against legendary trainers (Top happens to hit 91 Speed, a key stat to outspeed base 110+ in TW), I would not even have come close to 200 without it. I also opted for speed control on Suicune to better enable a switched-out Volcarona (which has 134 Speed, so a +1 from QD or a -1 from Icy Wind puts it at effective 201, one point above the base 130+ crew -- you've seen this on the Gyarados team already). Heat Wave is much better than single-target Fire moves, 90% accuracy is not always unviable (but especially not on a spread move).
I lost to Blissey4 lead. The team is kind of asking for that to happen; unfortunately, as much as HJK improves Top otherwise, it is decidedly a liability in this single matchup, and there's really no room for Blissey4 countermeasures apart from that. What I didn't try was to copy the +6 evasion with Latias and hope Toxic would never hit it, maybe that would have gone better? I haven't analyzed the odds. Hitting a single +6 Gem Draco would have won me the game, but alas.
edit: just to make it clear, team is PKHeX'd as always
The occasional doubles setup <3
Who, if not you, would make Volcarona work in doubles.
Is Draco Meteor so much required? Some more coverage, or Psyshock against this Blissey may be viable, no?
There's only a 3% chance (accuracy delta) Psyshock would have helped more against +6 evasion Blissey4 than Gem Draco -- both OHKO at +6, and against Policemen it's not hard to set up at least one of Volc/Cune to +6 and copy the boost. Resisted Gem Draco is still stronger than super-effective HP Ground, and nothing 4x resists it. Only when 2HKOing you might be in trouble due to the SpA drop, but Psych Up mitigates this better than any coverage (or you could switch; this team is quite defensive and I found myself switching back from Latias decently often) and Latias probably isn't 2HKOing anything with unboosted HP Ground (I know Latios definitely needs Specs/LO to achieve 2HKOs with it, or OHKOs with Psyshock, aside from 4x weaks). Also consider, as said, that Latias' partners are pretty effective against Steels -- the chance that I need to 1v1 a healthy Steel last is very low. It happened once, the foe was Bronzong (where no coverage helps consistently, since it's a 50/50 to be useless; Draco is actually the strongest sensible move you get against it), and Latias still won (assisted by a single Sucker Punch hit from Top). The "coverage" I have is a move that has 100% accuracy and still gets boosted by the item, which is far more necessary than anything else. If any move is droppable, it's Protect, but that has its uses too (e.g. when Tailwind is not up vs. a legendary trainer who sends out opposing Lati@s), especially given that Latias can tank most hits and thus attract more.
I would definitely say Draco is required. Of course accuracy is a hassle, but really what matters is often the effective chance to OHKO, which will quite commonly be 0% with Dragon Pulse and 90% with Draco. Being backline also makes the SpA drop matter less; Latias is really fulfilling the "Marshadow" role with amazing coverage on a notably strong "Z-move" and the speed and bulk to supplement that.
Updated the Subway Assistant here to now include Speed instead of the EV Spread. Also deleted around 200 Pokemon that are only seen in non-Super Trains.
EDIT (4-29-2024): Took out the 3 SetPrinter calls, this makes the output more compact.
Sample run against Socialite Saty:
Code:
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What trainer are you battling?
Saty
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This trainer has 80 different sets, which constitute 61888 different teams.
There are 7 alarming movesets, and there is a 0.2539 chance of running into at least one of them.
There is 0.0727 chance of finding Alarm1: ['Fake Out', 'Quick Attack', 'Mach Punch', 'Bullet Punch', 'Aqua Jet', 'Ice Shard', 'Shadow Sneak', 'Sucker Punch', 'ExtremeSpeed']
There is 0.1582 chance of finding Alarm2: ['Rain Dance', 'Hail', 'Trick Room']
There is 0.0355 chance of finding Alarm3: ['Counter', 'Mirror Coat']
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MOLTRES 0.163101
ARTICUNO 0.159902
ZAPDOS 0.158803
LANDORUS 0.158771
RAIKOU 0.156412
TERRAKION 0.155895
HEATRAN 0.155571
REGIROCK 0.151403
VIRIZION 0.150659
THUNDURUS 0.14956
LATIAS 0.148268
LATIOS 0.148268
REGIGIGAS 0.147201
COBALION 0.146458
ENTEI 0.146135
TORNADUS 0.143776
CRESSELIA 0.141578
REGICE 0.14077
REGISTEEL 0.139833
SUICUNE 0.137636
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Please enter a Pokemon you have seen.
Latios
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Possible sets:
Latios 964 0.27452 Choice Specs Timid Draco Meteor Thunder Psychic Energy Ball 178
Latios 944 0.259481 White Herb Timid Draco Meteor Thunderbolt Psychic Protect 178
Latios 984 0.252289 Life Orb Adamant Draco Meteor Earthquake Dragon Dance Outrage 162
Latios 924 0.21371 Chesto Berry Bold Calm Mind Luster Purge Dragon Pulse Rest 130
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Which one was it? Enter a number.
964
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MOLTRES 0.111949
ARTICUNO 0.110361
ZAPDOS 0.109964
LANDORUS 0.109964
HEATRAN 0.10917
RAIKOU 0.108773
TERRAKION 0.108773
REGIROCK 0.106788
VIRIZION 0.106788
THUNDURUS 0.106391
ENTEI 0.105597
COBALION 0.105597
REGIGIGAS 0.1052
TORNADUS 0.104407
CRESSELIA 0.103216
REGICE 0.102819
REGISTEEL 0.102422
SUICUNE 0.101628
LATIAS 0.080191
LATIOS 0.0
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There is 0.0524 chance of finding Alarm1: ['Fake Out', 'Quick Attack', 'Mach Punch', 'Bullet Punch', 'Aqua Jet', 'Ice Shard', 'Shadow Sneak', 'Sucker Punch', 'ExtremeSpeed']
There is 0.1096 chance of finding Alarm2: ['Rain Dance', 'Hail', 'Trick Room']
There is 0.0258 chance of finding Alarm3: ['Counter', 'Mirror Coat']
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Please enter another Pokemon you have seen.
Terrakion
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Possible sets:
Terrakion 919 0.259124 Expert Belt Jolly Close Combat Earthquake Stone Edge Aerial Ace 176
Terrakion 979 0.255474 King's Rock Jolly Bulldoze Rock Slide Earthquake Sacred Sword 176
Terrakion 939 0.248175 Choice Scarf Adamant Sacred Sword Earthquake Stone Edge Aerial Ace 240
Terrakion 959 0.237226 Sitrus Berry Jolly Swords Dance Sacred Sword Earthquake Rock Slide 176
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Which one was it? Enter a number.
959
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ARTICUNO 0.061538
ZAPDOS 0.061538
MOLTRES 0.061538
RAIKOU 0.061538
ENTEI 0.061538
REGISTEEL 0.061538
TORNADUS 0.061538
HEATRAN 0.061538
CRESSELIA 0.061538
LANDORUS 0.061538
REGIGIGAS 0.061538
SUICUNE 0.046154
REGIROCK 0.046154
REGICE 0.046154
COBALION 0.046154
VIRIZION 0.046154
THUNDURUS 0.046154
LATIAS 0.046154
TERRAKION 0.0
LATIOS 0.0
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There is 0.0154 chance of finding Alarm1: ['Fake Out', 'Quick Attack', 'Mach Punch', 'Bullet Punch', 'Aqua Jet', 'Ice Shard', 'Shadow Sneak', 'Sucker Punch', 'ExtremeSpeed']
There is 0.0615 chance of finding Alarm2: ['Rain Dance', 'Hail', 'Trick Room']
There is 0.0 chance of finding Alarm3: ['Counter', 'Mirror Coat']
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Please enter the last Pokemon.
Tornadus
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Possible sets:
!!! Tornadus 981 0.25 Damp Rock Timid Hurricane Focus Blast Taunt Rain Dance 179
Tornadus 921 0.25 Life Orb Timid Hurricane Grass Knot Focus Blast Dark Pulse 179
Tornadus 941 0.25 Leftovers Modest Substitute Double Team Focus Blast Hurricane 131
Tornadus 961 0.25 Chesto Berry Bold Rest Air Slash Dark Pulse Focus Blast 131
Reporting an ongoing streak of 1001 wins in Super Doubles!
The Subway revival in recent months hasn't gone unnoticed, particularly the large number of cool and novel teams Coeur7 has been finding success with. I had never given the Subway too much thought, and I can't really explain why; I did enjoy gen 5, but only got into facilities during gen 6 and it kinda just fell through the cracks in my mind. But my curiosity was sparked back in January when Coeur said, on Discord, "i wonder if the eisenherz team could be reduplicated in subway though (tw follow me togekiss / sd scizor / subtect leftovers heatran / specs latios) - i'd leave it to eisenherz to try"... well now, that's too inviting to ignore, isn't it!? That team is one I used in gen 4 Tower, and admittedly, this got me equally curious (ok, probably more) about its potential in gen 5. And thus began a series of attempts...
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T E A M B U I L D I N G
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I started with literally the exact team I ran in gen 4, not because I thought it would be fine as-is, but because I wanted to get a grasp of the new challenges it would face in Subway, and whether it was even viable. I transferred up the team and went in blindly (Super Subway was not even unlocked yet, so this was an annoyingly long process lol). It went way better than I anticipated, and I ended up losing at 128 - don't remember to what - but I was very satisfied with the run. It not only gave me reason to believe there may be a future for this team in Subway, but it also clearly highlighted some of its shortcomings.
The most glaring issue was a particular Pokémon:
Every time it showed up, it was a struggle to maneuver around, and the looming threat of it sweeping me under sand was terrifying, I remember barely scraping by twice against it, with Heatran only winning because I got lucky enough it didn't roll Sand Rush. I also noticed how common trainers with teams built around Sand were to face. In gen 4, similar teams tended to not give much trouble to Scizor + Latios, but they had gotten an upgrade in gen 5.
The second issue was Excadrill-adjacent: Steel types. Klingklang, Bisharp, Escavalier.... Cobalion! Most are things Heatean obviously matches up well against (well, maybe not so much Cobalion), but as leads they were really bad. My leads had no immediate damage and I was sometimes pinned with no chance to easily switch.
Third was a returning issue from Gen 4, and the situation on that front had simply not improved at all: Electrics. No switch-ins (Latios isn't one, because it would end up paralyzed on the switch, which ruins Latios... plus Electrics carry Shadow Ball often enough). Since it was obvious I was gonna make changes to the team, I was hoping I could fix this as well, and stop living in fear of Raikou, Jolteon and co.
Given the team had still performed decently and its general idea seemed solid, I wanted to make small changes to fix the issues rather than go back to the drawing board.
My first thought was that Flamethrower or Aura Sphere on Togekiss could help a lot with the Steels the frontline dislike, Aura Sphere being particularly appealing for hitting Rocks as well. But I realized it couldn't be solved this easily when I considered what move should be replaced...
- Tri Attack? That's the main reliable STAB, the one it spams most, and I use it all the time in tandem with Scizor to remove something instantly. Never mind the favourable hax it obtains, removing Tri Attack meant removing Togekiss' offensive contribution on all neutral matchups (relying on Air Slash for that is not an option unless I want to gamble constantly (I don't)). This would have been a case of resolving a small issue by causing a big one.
- Air Slash? In truth, I was already not a fan of Air Slash, because it can miss... But in gen 4, I needed Air Slash, because Fighting types were a huge issue to the team. And they still are... Air Slash is my only immediate answer until Latios gets a free switch. Infernape, Medicham, Blaziken, and now Emboar require immediate intervention. As annoying as Steel types had been, Fightings were way more threatening to the team in general, and that's because the team functions around Scizor switching into Heatran on Fire moves. If there's a Fighting type in there, or 2, Heatran has an equally bad time as Scizor did.
- Follow Me? That's the reason for using Togekiss at all. If I'm going to use Togekiss without Follow Me, I may as well use another Flying type that offers better speed upfront.
- Tailwind? It crossed my mind, but again, I figured that if I was going to simply not have Tailwind, then another Pokémon could surely take Togekiss' place and do a better job at it, something with better speed upfront.
In practice - and it's something I had noticed in gen 4 as well - Togekiss' 2 support moves were helpful, but not clicked super often. I found myself enjoying Togekiss' offensive prowess more than its support.
So how would things go if I replaced Togekiss with a powerhouse that supports Scizor mostly through offense instead? That's the first thing I decided to try...
I first considered regular Thundurus since it's simply one of the best Pokémon gen 5 has to offer. But then I saw the opportunity to finally fix my Electric weakness issue with Thundurus-T, not to mention the appealing additional SpA. The speed was going to be a big upgrade on Togekiss regardless. I went for Electric Gem (I was very excited to finally use gems!) with Thunderbolt / HP Flying / Grass Knot / Protect. Hidden Power is particularly appealing pre-XY thanks to 70 BP, and coming from Thundurus-T, it was going to fill the role of a more reliable Togekiss Air Slash without issue. Gem Tbolt is a nuke and has no issue dealing with Steels. And with Grass Knot giving me an answer to Rhyperior on the frontline, which has been a pain in the past, all my problems should be solved.
Well... except for Excadrill. Excadrill would still be annoying, and I wasn't sure what to do about it except count on Scizor, which has a pretty even matchup against it...
Ok, no, that's pretty lousy. Heatran is great unless it's Sand Rush, or unless Heatran misses into Bright Powder (it can however buy turns with Sub).
As insurance, I got myself a HP Fighting Latios, which I figured would come clutch into against more things than Fire or Ground (how I wish it had Aura Sphere back then).
This iteration seemed really promising, and got a 167 streak on its first attempt, still without lookup or calcs (I miss being able to casually play in bed ;_;). While I wanted to keep further changes minimal and go for a proper run, alternative ideas came to mind, and I just had to test some more...
One such idea is one I already had back in Gen 4 and had scratched after testing; if I want a fast, heavy damage dealer upfront that can deal with Fighting-types but also set Tailwind... is the answer not right there, in my backline?
As a heavy damage dealer, surely Thundurus-T would have no issue playing Latios' role in the backline instead, and having Latios upfront would give me Tailwind again, which I did miss in front of things like Salamence or Volcarona. I replaced Latios' Specs with a Dragon Gem, so I could get a Specs-equivalent hit without the drawback of the lock (having to lock in Latios also generally felt much worse in Gen 5 than it did in 4 somehow). I also loved the idea of finally having an actual Electric switch-in.
On paper, it all made so much sense to me. Much like it did when I had tried Latios at the front back in Gen 4. And likewise, I really didn't like that lead combo in practice. I'm not sure why, Latios and Scizor should perfectly complement each other, Scizor deals with most of what Latios hates. It felt like I was not getting much value from Latios outside the Gem hit and the occasional Tailwind. Latios really wants coverage, and something to boost damage, but it also wants to set Tailwind, and most importantly be able to Protect because otherwise it gets very few turns on the field, unable to even put its frailty to good use as a bait. Limiting it to an offensive role in the back just worked better.
I don't think I got to battle 50 before deciding this iteration of the team had no future and that I'd rather go back to V2 than finish this run.
But these battles are when I realized what an issue the Ice Workers were for this team. Sure, Lum Scizor is an excellent answer most of the time. But the issue was with the other slot. Heatran wants to come in, but Heatran doesn't want to get Blizzarded on the switch this often, because freezes happen. Most importantly, these Workers use Waters too, which incidentally means sometimes, Scizor can't just do it all alone. So how about a Tailwind setter that shuts down these teams entirely...?
I really liked that idea, because it allowed me to truly put Thundurus' Volt Absorb to good use as a switch-in for Suicune. Moreover, Scizor can swiftly delete Grasses Suicune hates. The downside was obviously losing out on some offensive pressure upfront, so to at least partly make up for it, I opted for a very offensive Suicune, nearly max SpA.
I didn't like that team. Good synergy on paper, but as for Scizor's previous partners, I found myself needing to just attack with Suicune most of the time, and compared to the previous 2 frontliners, Suicune didn't cut it. The damage was insufficient, which reduced Scizor's lifespan. Suicune didn't care so much since it's so bulky, but rather than protecting Scizor like the previous partners, that just meant more attacks went Scizor's way, which really worked against the team overall.
At that point, V2 was still the best version of the team thus far, and I thought I should simply go back to frontline Thundurus-T. However, this time, rather than have Latios in the back, which is too frail to reliably switch-in, how about keeping Suicune there? Backline Tailwind is great to plan for endgames, and most importantly, there's no better Blizzard/Ice Beam switch-in than a bulky Water with Scald. The typing synergy would undeniably be much better than with Latios.
This testing session went way better. For the first time in a while, it felt like the team went in the right direction. I don't remember what number this lost at, pretty sure it was before 100, but I was playing recklessly just trying to find a team that felt solid and gave me chances to make the right plays to rescue things in tougher matchups. I decided I was gonna figure out final movesets and EVs soon and make a proper run with this.
Until a thought I couldn't shake came to mind...
I had been watching a VGC Reg F regional event, and Landorus-I was on a lot of teams. Nothing new, but seeing it in action really got me thinking about how well it might do on my team. The thought had passed before when browsing for options, but I figured it would make Blizzard/Ice Beam too big of an issue... at least Togekiss/Thundurus/Latios can live one, not Lando. But now that I have Suicune... surely that's not a concern anymore? All 3 partners resist Ice, and 2 of them have no issue KOing them.
I didn't like how much this idea stuck with me because I finally had a team I was happy with and wanted to properly run. But I couldn't stop thinking how perfect it would be. Finally I may stop living in fear of Electrics! Thundurus may check them well defensively, but it's not a good offensive answer. I could even KO Excadrill immediately! It seemed like it would actually solve all of my issues. I had to at least give it a shot...
The biggest concern I had with having Landorus was losing a good Flying STAB to quickly KO Fightings. At least Earth Power easily dealt with the Fire starters, but stuff like Poliwrath, Heracross, Conkeldurr, concerned me. I settled for Psychic as coverage rather than the conventional Sludge Bomb for that reason; as neutral coverage, it does exactly the same thing. Sludge Bomb makes more sense usually because of Grass resisting Earth Power, but with Scizor (and Heatran in the back), Grass is really not a concern here. Moreover, Psychic lets me hit opposing Landorus, which otherwise pretty much wall me and apply a lot of offensive pressure. Lando walling Lando is a common occurence in PvP; in Gen 8 DOU Landorus often ran Psychic precisely to deal with the mirror.
In the third slot, I knew I wanted Sub, because I'm generally a huge fan of that set, and figured it would perform all the better in Subway to avoid stuff like the ever-annoying Swagger/Flatter from Mandibuzz, and various other forms of hax. Most importantly, it allows to buy free turn between Protects, which is extra valuable on something with a 4x weakness that will get reliably targeted. This should grant free SDs for Scizor at times, and just a safe wincon at others. It also made dealing with Trick Room a joke.
And at that moment, I thought, wait a second, Heatran has Sub, Lando has Sub... but Suicune doesn't?! Yet Suicune is probably the best Sub candidate on the team! I've seen sub-locking endgames with Heatran this entire time, but now I have an icon of sub-stalling that does it so much more efficiently with Pressure, I would be stupid not to utilize that!
Don't get me wrong, the main idea isn't to stall out things with Sub, that's generally unviable in doubles until you make the endgame come down to it, but Sub accomplishes way more, it buys turns, allows for way more baiting, and just allows for safer planning.
Deciding that both Ice Beam and Tailwind were too important to drop for Sub, I made a compromise and compressed both into one: Icy Wind.
Items became a bit of an awkward issue. Clearly, Suicune was now the prime contender for Leftovers over Heatran - I had been using Sitrus Suicune prior. Sub Heatran without Lefties didn't sound as good, but Sitrus Sub Suicune also sounded really subpar. I gave Suicune the Lefties and decided if Heatran was gonna have anything else, it should be Wide Lens to enable Heat Wave, my 2nd favourite Heatran set in facilities.
And so equipped with triple Sub, I started testing once more. This ended up creating some fun battle boards.
Very quickly, I knew it was close to what I wanted. I loved having Heat Wave, spread moves are one of the most potent weapons in doubles... but as I kinda saw coming, this changed Heatran's dynamic in the team entirely, not because of Heat Wave, but because it didn't have anymore recovery, and couldn't play the defensive role it used to as efficiently, in exchange for a stronger offensive presence. I find it hard to pin the exact reasons why, but Heatran as this offensive piece now felt like a weak link for the first time ever, while it used to be a pillar of stability in the back. That felt really weird. Meanwhile, probably because of the typing distribution in the team, Suicune was actually struggling to live up to that role; I wasn't able to get subs as freely as I did with Heatran, and I was forced to prioritize Icy Winding a lot of the time.
That run died around 180 to Raikou Thunder critting Scizor (Balloon Raikou, so Protect + Earth Power turn 1 was not an option, but I should have Bullet Punched immediately in case of crit), after which I probably kept misplaying (I don't remember exactly what happened - there was a Porygon-Z in the mix). But this was my friendly reminder that simply having Lando didn't mean the team didn't care about Electrics anymore, especially with Suicune over Latios.
That run also made me realize Gyarados was a scary encounter, because it was likely to get several occasions to setup. Suicune walls it to a certain degree, but with Gen 5's 2x crits, that's not safe when Suicune can barely damage Gyarados.
Regardless, I had enough faith in this team that I wanted to do a proper run where I use the lookup, calc as much as necessary and try not to misplay to see how far it could go. I thought it surely had 300-potential.
I started a new run, determined to play well, but shortly after beating Emmet, an idea came to mind that may resolve all my new issues, and give Heatran its beloved Leftovers back... I decided to try it out, ready to go back to the previous version if I didn't work out. The change traded some of Suicune's bulk for a better typing, and a stronger offensive matchups.
And with that change, the final team was completed...
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T E A M
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Timid | Sheer Force IVs: 31/0/30/31/31/31 EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Earth Power / Psychic / Sludge Wave / Protect
I didn't expect to end up with an all-out offensive powerhouse that offers no Tailwind and no support for Scizor on the frontline when I started teambuilding, but here we are. Typing-wise, it synergizes with Scizor better than Togekiss, with Earth Power offering the option for quick removal of Fire types. Obviously, Heatran has a free switch into those, but going Heatran is not always safe or desirable depending on the field, so having many options with the freedom to pick depending on circumstances is so much nicer. Often, KOing the Houndoom (for example) and getting a free SD with Scizor is way more valuable than getting the Flash Fire boost. I guess this is caused partly by the loss of Tailwind; Heatran doesn't have the speed tier to be out there trying to sweep on turn 2. Meanwhile, with Bullet Punch in its arsenal, Scizor is the perfect contender to do just that, and early SDs are incredibly valuable.
In addition to handling pesky Fire types, Landorus solved much of the issues the team had with both Electric and Steel.
The 4x weakness to Ice turned out to be an asset, drawing attacks very predictably while Scizor has a great matchup upfront against both Ice and the Waters with Ice coverage. Meanwhile, the backline provides 2 very different options as switch-ins for Ice, a luxury that offers some flexibility on risking a freeze. Freeze management is crucial: when switching into a Blizzard, I have to assume I'll get frozen, because it will happen eventually, and if I lose to that while using a Pokémon 4x weak to Ice... that's a teambuilding flaw.
In terms of move selection, Earth Power is the obvious STAB that gets spammed, and my pick of Psychic is explained in the teambuilding part (V6), but comes down to Fighting being an annoyance to the team.
Meanwhile, Sludge Wave is a late addition; I used Substitute in that slot for at least the first 200 battles. I don't remember exactly when the change was made, but I meant it as a short-lived experiment of like 14 battles. I enjoyed and used Substitute a lot, and I rarely felt like the coverage was inadequate. But as previously mentioned, spread moves have a very special value in doubles, where even if they're not particularly strong or get OHKOs, the simple fact you can damage a slot for some damage while KOing another is incredibly valuable, and comes into play all the time in ways that rarely get theorymonned. I usually really dislike full spread moves though, as hitting the partner is a major drawback that is often under-acknowledged; Sludge Wave is also particularly weak as a full spread move. But Sheer Force-boosted Sludge Wave partner with not one, but 2 Steel types? Well... there can probably be no better circumstance for this move to actually be good.
It so happened that the period of testing coincided with my first encounter with Hydreigon-3. The fact Hydreigon walled Landorus had not been an issue with the other sets, which the rest of the team handled nicely, and Lando could just focus on handling the partner or be safe behind a sub. But that set has Flamethrower and Earth Power, a combo that greatly limits my options. Depending on its partner, this can be catastrophic. Well, not with Sludge Wave, which does good damage to Hydreigon and allows me to use the partner as bait effectively. After that encounter, I decided Sludge Wave was a keeper, and while I missed Sub at times, having a spread move has been super nice to just distribute damage and put things in range of a partner, or score a double KO while Scizor SDs.
I had the straightforward 4 HP and 252/252 in SpA/Spe until some battle in the 600s where I lived a (gem-boosted) Espeon Psychic on 3 HP. That Espeon set is a super common encounter, but the roll had always been lower previously, so I decided to run a calc out of curiosity, and discovered the following:
252 SpA Psychic Gem Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 139-165 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
After determining no calc of value was lost by going 244 SpA instead, I promptly made the change to this spread, which allows always living Espeon's Psychic (barring a crit, of course). It's an especially big deal because of the Eeveelution trainers, Espeon can be paired with Jolteon/Flareon, and I really want Lando to live the Psychic in those occasions. Now we have:
Defensive calcs:
252 SpA Psychic Gem Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 138-163 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168+ SpA Charizard Heat Wave (spread) vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 69-82 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (in practice, this keeps critting or burning... or both lol)
0- SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 138-164 (83.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (I know 0- SpA is crazy, but that's Latios-4)
0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 136-164 (82.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (in case I feel like risking a freeze lol)
Offensive calcs:
244 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 87-103 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave (spread) vs. 124 HP / 0 SpD Lilligant: 161-190 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO (screw Teeter Dance!!!!!!!!)
244 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 157-187 (104 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a returning member, I don't have too much to say about Scizor. It's still the all-star on the offensive front. I don't know if it's recency bias, but it feels even better in Subway than in did in gen 4 Tower. Bullet Punch's value is incredible, especially when boosted by Swords Dance, and I believe that's the main reason this team is able to get away with no upfront speed control.
In gen 4, I remember saying Bug Bite was clicked even more than BP, but I think the balance tilts slightly the other way in Subway. Regardless, setting up SD whenever the possibility arises almost always pays off, and I tend to use it in the majority of battles.
One of its most impactful uses is the fact it counteracts Intimidate, from Salamence and Gyarados in particular. Scizor can setup fairly safely in front of them, and turn a passive state into a commanding one without switching. Being forced to switch to reset Intimidate can be an awful situation be stuck in, giving free turns to the AI. The switch may also not be safe, forcing Scizor to stay in and do too little damage (-1 is very impactful for Scizor).
Item-wise, Lum is simply goated. I have 4 separate entries in my battle notes stating Lum is the best thing ever. I would approximate it activated in a meaningful way in at least a third (!) of the battles...
Landorus draws in Blizzard, and Scizor's job is to handle these users, so it gets frozen quite often. That alone makes it worth.
Will-O-Wisp users are common, particularly Spiritomb, which always targets Scizor with it. A burn is so impactful for Scizor, having to play around that every time would be a large annoyance. Instead, Scizor can SD freely in front of it, and KO with +2 Bug Bite.
Mandibuzz is another common foe, and it never fails to spread Swagger or Flatter on random slots. Playing confusion roulette is a surefire way to eventually lose out. Huge bonus is when Swagger goes into Scizor for a free boost.
I can attack into Static or Flame Body without a care.
Nothing worse than getting forced out by Yawn after getting a SD.
Thunder Wave is horrible, and if it's upfront, we all know which slot it's going into since the other is immune. Para is one of my biggest fears, since a paralyzed Pokémon might as well be dead (except if it was dead, it would at least not be a passive asset on the field potentially pinned there, unable to ever move, giving free turns to the AI... I'd often rather see it get KOd).
The biggest downside of Lum is that there's only one...
This is the same spread I used in gen 4, but I did take time to reconsider it before heading into this run.
The speed is to outspeed Suicune-123. It's pretty obvious, but the fact I have Lando and Heatran means getting to KO Suicune before it gets to move on any given turn is a big deal (it can damage Scizor pretty significantly too). Outspeeding all Cresselia by 1 point is a nice bonus, though Cress is rarely a threat for the team.
Relevant defensive calcs:
252 Atk Pinsir Close Combat vs. 92 HP / 12 Def Scizor: 66-78 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (common among Roughnecks, almost always locks into CC)
252+ Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 92 HP / 12 Def Scizor: 160-192 (101.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ensures Scarf Garchomp locks into Fire Fang reliably, gives Heatran a field day)
252+ Atk Cobalion Sacred Sword vs. 92 HP / 12 Def Scizor: 66-78 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus Earthquake (spread) vs. 92 HP / 12 Def Scizor: 67-79 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
168+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake (spread) vs. 92 HP / 12 Def Scizor: 67-79 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 65-77 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Tornadus Hurricane vs. 92 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 130-154 (82.8 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
@
Modest | Levitate IVs: 31/10/30/30/31/31 EVs: 244 HP / 120 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe Thunderbolt / HP Water / Thunder Wave / Protect
I was a bit nervous when I replaced Suicune with Rotom. The synergy is undeniably better... Levitate makes it an ideal Heatran partner, and having a second Flying resist is also not insignificant (my options felt thin in front of Tornadus or Braviary, which have Fighting coverage). But the most important part here is the offensive synergy: now it wouldn't just switch into Waters, it would be able to dispose of them in minimal turns. Scizor was my best offensive Water answer previously, and while it does a decent job against most of them, trainers like Fishermen and Parasol Ladies could overwhelm it.
But all of this came at a cost: the bulk is undeniably worse, especially if I want Rotom to contribute offensively. And most importantly, no Scald as a freeze insurance policy; this is what made me most nervous by far. In my short time with Suicune, I already had to thaw a couple times. Would the Lum be a sufficient answer to freezes with a Blizzard magnet upfront?
I guess the answer is that it has been so far...? Though I wouldn't be surprised if this was the cause of a loss in the future. The saving grace is that Rotom isn't the exclusive Ice switch-in, Heatran can easily do it too. So depending on what trainer I'm facing, I can decide what I'd rather risk. In front on a Fisherman with double Ice Beam lead, I'd always switch Heatran into the Landorus slot, because Heatran is very unlikely to help out much in that battle, while Rotom will be scoring KOs, and risking it would be stupid. The reverse applies against Ice Workers, where Heatran is really good. All in all, losing Scald has been ok, though things would obviously be better if Rotom had access to it.
The moveset is straightforward, Thunderbolt is the primary STAB, particularly good in Subway because it still has 95 BP. HP Water is a no-brainer over Hydro Pump for any serious attempt at a long streak, especially in a gen where HP is a respectable 70 BP.
Thunder Wave was a pleasant surprise for me. I strongly considered using Electroweb instead since I enjoyed Suicune's Icy Wind a lot, the spread chip was often significant. But old TWave is just insanely good. The ¼ speed cut makes things like Dragon Dance or Quiver Dance soooo much less threatening, and 100% accuracy to boot for complete peace of mind. It really helped stabilize things and allowed me to properly plan things out in front of tougher matchups (TWave was the hero in a lot of the close battles). But the best part... it can still paralyze Electric types?! I thought that had been fixed (I know it's not a bug, but you know...) by gen 5. Being able to TWave Raikou is a game-changer (yes, despite everything, Raikou was still an issue, in large part because of those stupid Air Balloons). On the flip side, I did not enjoy seeing Rotom itself get paralyzed at times...
Protect is probably a no-brainer on this type of team, but it was particularly important with a Sludge Waving Lando, and more generally to allow Rotom to survive while Scizor or Heatran takes out a Grass type... or really just to buy a free turn by baiting.
The switch from Suicune to Rotom ended up being just what the team needed. My fear of losing out on bulk was unwarranted, as the Sitrus provides just enough to allow Rotom to survive 1 extra hit, which usually converts into a TWave + a free turn being a reliable bait at low HP, all the while having a better offensive presence. An excellent bargain!
Since I didn't really have a baseline to work from, I adjusted Rotom's EVs many times throughout the streak, the last of which was somewhere in the 400s.
At one point, I EVd to OHKO Infernape-3, which I used to consider a big threat, and that requires 252 SpA. But then I realized how busted TWave is. Why would I need to OHKO with HP Water when I can just TWave it, after which it's not that much of a threat anymore (Heatran's EP even has an 87% OHKO)? Also, Infernape-4 (Sash) is just as common.
Initially, I had gone 116 to outspeed Zapdos-2 (would rather not be Tbolting it after its Roosts), but then speed tying Blaziken felt stupid considering how big of a threat it can be... Ultimately, I ended up with 140 for Gyarados-1 after a battle made me realize it was a threat I would much rather remove right after baiting the Ice Fang with Lando. It shows up on Water rosters where Rotom already has its hands full, and Scizor likely got crippled by Intimidate. I went the one extra point to outspeed Wailord-2, because full HP Water Spout hurts (Quick Claw could activate... but most of the time it won't, so for the extra 1 point cost, it seems worth). And as luck would have it, the offensive calcs I wanted left me with an 8 EVs I didn't absolutely need in SpA :P
Ludicolo-4 is also a nice bonus to outspeed, since it's the only Ludi set that outspeeds Scizor. Fun fact, Grass Knot does less to Rotom than Hydro Pump lol.
244 HP is for the better Sitrus activation number.
Offensive calcs:
120+ SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 162-192 (101.3 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 204-240 (101 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 158-188 (103.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glaceon: 72-85 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 84-99 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
Defensive calcs:
252+ SpA Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 82-98 (52.6 - 62.8%); recovers 41-49 (25.5 - 30.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 84-99 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 70-84 (44.9 - 53.8%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Giga Impact vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 133-156 (85.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
There's a bunch of cool guaranteed survivals but I'm not listing them because I don't think I've ever seen them come into play.
@
Modest | Flash Fire IVs: 31/2/31/31/31/31 EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 236 SpA / 12 SpD / 252 Spe Flamethrower / Earth Power / Substitute / Protect
Good ol' reliable Heatran. Much like on my gen 4 Tower team, it plays a dual role: on one hand, it's a strong offensive piece and gets to score KOs left and right whenever it gets a Flash Fire boost. On the other hand, its defensive typing alone lets it switch into and wall a lot (Ghost and Dark resistance in gen 5 is kinda crazy), it gets free Subs, and closes out games while munching on Lefties. Most crucially, it singlehandedly shuts down many hax machines such as Walrein-4 and Blissey-4. Having peace of mind and being able to ignore those sets is huge and I'm confident the team couldn't get this far without it (pretty sure I had more than 10 endgames of pure PP stalling behind a sub... Latias-1 was a recurring culprit).
If I had any doubts about how this Heatran really is the foundation of the team, the experiment I did where I gave its defensive role to Suicune (along with its Lefties) and instead focused on its offensive prowess with Wide Lens Heat Wave, showed me just how beneficial filling both roles at once had been. It still did its offensive duties really well, arguably even better with a spread move, but it suddenly seemed like a semi-frail piece, a bit like Landorus, prone to folding to an unlucky turn of getting crit by a resisted move for example. This made me really appreciate how much value I'm getting out of it with SubLefties, and I don't know if Heatran would be worth running at all on a balanced/bulky offensive team with a different set. The 99% Heat Wave also made me a bit nervous... why add a potential failing point if I can avoid it?
Admittedly, Heatran seemed pressured more often compared to gen 4 Tower, and couldn't find as many free turns to sub. Because of that, having Rotom as partner really helped take some weight off its shoulders, and TWave support in particular was super good (you can fish for so many free subs on a paralyzed Pokémon, though I was careful to not TWave something I was actively planning to PP stall, because that would be shooting myself in the foot...).
Unlike Scizor, I did not spend much time re-analyzing the spread specifically for Subway.
I did check speed tiers and immediately knew that needed to stay unchanged upon seeing it outspeed Cobalion-1, Virizon-4 and Emboar-4 by 1 point. Outspeeding as many things as possible is generally the idea anyway with Sub. There are times I wondered if maybe Timid would be worth, maybe Modest is a bit greedy? I haven't really looked into it, because it's been working good, and honestly RNGing a new Heatran just for that sounds like a pain.
Here are few calcs that came into play during the streak.
Offensive calcs:
236+ SpA Flash Fire Heatran Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electivire: 153-180 (102 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ SpA Heatran Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 186-218 (104.5 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ SpA Heatran Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Abomasnow: 204-240 (103.6 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 148-176 (98 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (I have yet to not get this roll, though I never bank on it)
236+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu: 136-160 (100.7 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ SpA Flash Fire Heatran Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zapdos: 112-133 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is demon Zapdos-2)
Defensive calcs:
252 Atk Electivire Earthquake (spread) vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 156-184 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (this may not seem great, but it's really nice because it means it always prefers Ice Punching Landorus for a guaranteed OHKO)
252+ SpA Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 12 SpD Heatran: 138-164 (82.6 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
124+ Atk Feraligatr Earthquake (spread) vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 136-164 (81.4 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Wailord Water Spout (150 BP) (spread) vs. 4 HP / 12 SpD Heatran: 140-168 (83.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 138-164 (82.6 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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N O T E S
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Though I was quietly hopeful about the team's potential, I really didn't think it would actually manage 1000. My highest hopes were somewhere in the 500 ballpark, especially since the original gen 4 streak didn't even make it to 1k. I only started taking notes around battle 300 since I didn't really expect I'd end up writing a report for it. But for the past few hundred battles, I took a ton of notes. I'll try to keep it short and sweet (not my forte)...!
Generally, the team relies on baiting moves to provide the partner with a free turn, whether it be for a KO or a free SD/Sub, all of which are high value. The three 4x weaknesses, paired with the reliable gen 5 AI (compared to later gens) really work in its favor, making this more predictable. However, this is obviously a double-edge sword at times, where for example an Infernape + Feraligatr lead exerts a ton of pressure, since I can't remove one without trading (which I really don't wanna do turn 1). A lot of the streak has been learning the right pivots and patterns in order to handle these situations, and I found it's almost always achievable reliably without too many losses (though in dire circumstances, risking a freeze can be necessary...).
One indicator I found that this team was better than my previous test teams was the battles resulting in a 4-0. As obvious as it is that 4-0'ing is desirable, I think building teams that do it the majority of the time is really difficult, at least the vast majority of my teams can't achieve that. The only other team I built where 4-0 was by far the most common outcome was ZapFini in the Battle Tree. In a way, the way this team plays reminds me of it a lot, despite it being pretty different on paper. I hadn't thought about the 4-0 thing back in Tree, but it really hit me this time, because my other teams often had 2-0's and 1-0's. A win is a win, but if a team wins by a slimmer margin often, as more offensive teams often do, it's only logical that bad things like a crit, or a miss, will be more impactful, and things will fall apart more easily even if the winrate is generally high. I remember saying flexibility / second chances are an important attribute of a successful (doubles) team on a long streak in my ZapFini report, and this is the first time I realize this attribute can perhaps be measured by 4-0 outcomes. Certainly not an accurate science, but it's something I'll pay attention to more in the future when testing.
Despite the team's success, I had a lot more close calls early on than recently, and didn't think it had this much potential at first. I had several sessions of sitting down to review battles where I barely scraped by, and I found new patterns of play I hadn't considered, which was super useful in future battles. The number of close calls has significantly decreased over time, but there's certainly a large part of luck involved in getting this high.
One thing I realized from early close calls is that since the team has bulk and offers many options, I should be trying to play as carefully as possible. For example, sometimes, my instinct is that trading Lando for a big threat upfront is worth. But I found that if I take a step back and explore many lines of play, I can often find a really safe, less obvious one that prevents the trade. This takes way more time and part of me wants to be lazy and say it'll be fine anyway, because it usually is. But I've been trying to force myself to slow down and make the extra effort as often as possible. I don't know why, but I often play facilities as if I was on a PvP timer between turns. I feel the pressure to think and click quickly. I find it really hard to fight that tendency, but I think it probably was a factor in getting to 1k, as I regularly found better lines of play I otherwise wouldn't have.
Baits are very reliable when the AI has a guaranteed KO, definitely way more than in Tree, and maybe even more than Maison too? (unsure)
The AI is happy to try to status a Substitute that was already there at the start of the turn, though it won't necessarily do it repeatedly.
Swagger and Flatter are spammed to no end whenever possible, but interestingly, I've never seen the AI use Confuse Ray from sets that have it.
If a partner will be hurt, even minimally, by a spread move (EQ or Surf), it pretty much never uses it. However, if the AI partner has an immunity (Levitate, Water Absorb...), it will borderline refuse to use anything other than the spread move, even if it's bad against my Pokémon. If it has no partner, it will surprisingly avoid using spread moves as if it had one... lol (I've had Vaporeon-1 repeatedly Helping Hand rather than Surf while alone on the field with my Heatran/Landorus in front).
Similarly, I've never seen the AI be so shy of clicking Explosion in any other facility. I've seen maybe 3 Explosions during all 1001 battles.
If the AI outspeeds, it will happily Encore into the void on turn 1. This could probably be annoying for Fake Out users lol.
Trick has always been used on the first possible turn. Metagross-4 always gives its Toxic Orb to Lando, Alakazam-4 and Manectric-4's target seems pretty random. I'm always flabbergasted by Manectric turning down an Overheat into Scizor (I have never risked it before confirming it locked into Switcheroo though, who knows, one day...).
Pokémon threats:
Electivire-4 is probably the biggest threat overall (it has a Shuca). If I have the luxury of being able to double it up without having to trade turn 1, then BP + Earth Power KOs, and the world is a happy place with beautiful flowers growing on Electivire's grave. But if I have to play around it, it has an OHKO on both Lando and Scizor, making it a pure 50/50, and it also has EQ for Heatran if I want to pivot. It outspeeds everything except Lando, and most annoyingly, I can't TWave because of Motor Drive. If it comes from the back and it has a threatening partner, it's a nightmare.
Raikou is still is a threat. If taking a Thunder/Thunderbolt with Scizor is a reasonable option, I can always pop the balloon with BP for Lando to EP it. But this can be tricky depending on the partner... in bad situations, I may have to trade something for it before I know the full opponent backline (scary).
Medicham-4 outspeeds and OHKOs the entire team barring Lando with HJK. Needs to be EP'd asap (thankfully a guaranteed OHKO), though in a pinch, I double-protect to make it crash, which puts it in range of BP. So far, it has always skipped Fake Out in order to HJK Scizor.
Seismitoad-3, unlike all the other Water/Grounds, outspeeds everything except Lando. Muddy Water can be catastrophic because of accuracy drops, and playing defensively around it gives it chances to set rain, which it does very unpredictably. When possible, the best move is to BP + EP for a guaranteed KO immediately.
Lucario and Gallade are both incredibly annoying because of Follow Me/Ally Switch. I usually target them with priority to ensure I can reliably plan my following turns.
Hydreigon-3 has Earth Power AND Flamethrower. All I can do with my right slot is buy turns, unless I'm willing to let it Draco Rotom. In itself, not difficult to handle, but with any other threatening partner it's a nightmare to play around.
Tauros-3 has outrageous damage output and outspeeds the whole team. May force a trade, or at least take 90% off something.
Trainer threats:
Pilots. My frontline doesn't do great against Flying defensively, and a lot of them outspeed (and have Fighting coverage for Heatran). The Genies, particularly Tornadus, are super annoying. I often have to trade like 90% of HP on something for Staraptor. Lando's Sludge Wave usually shines against these, scoring double KOs or putting things in BP range.
Maids with all starters. They have high odds of getting a combo of typings/moves that threaten both of my Pokémon at once and force difficult repositioning.
Bikers (Philipo and Pedro) are probably the worst. They use a bunch of high BST/pseudolegends and have a high concentration of Pokémon that give me trouble and are likely to be on the field at the same time. The worst part? They run all 4 sets of each!!! Thunder Wave usually ends up being the saving grace against them (or if they have a useless Garchomp I can ignore).
Full legends rosters (Colombo, Leron, Saty, Kavan...). There are a lot of combos that can threaten both of my slots at once among these, many of which include Balloon Raikou, so these are the battles where I'm most often forced to make convoluted plays.
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R E P L A Y S
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The fact BW only allows saving 1 replay at a time is really annoying and certainly hinders video collecting. I saved battles I found most noteworthy, and tried my best to remember to record them in between sets. It feels a bit bad to showcase the team in some of its worst moments, but easy battles are boring. Here were some of the most exciting battles:
This lead is a good showcase of how threatening Electivire-4 can make things.
I really struggle to predict the AI properly in this one and Scizor gets caught by a surprise double-up + crit on the switch.
An insane battle where I thought I had certainly lost. Heatran gets frozen and I spend most of the following turns trying to buy time to allow it to thaw, but it doesn't.
Initially, I want to target his Heatran with Rotom in order to free up Scizor, which could in turn free up Landorus. But once Rotom takes way too much damage immediately, I have to abort that plan.
Meanwhile, if Regice decided to go for more than one Focus Blast into Heatran, this most likely would have been an actual loss.
I think this could probably have been played better if I hadn't been so set on trying to make Heatran thaw. Switching back and forth between Heatran and Lando, whith a Lando Protect turn in between, could probably have stalled Regice out of Blizzard PP, though I don't know if Rotom could've remained around long enough to pull it off. A simple trade of Lando for Heatran would have been a decent idea if Heatran wasn't so Protect-happy. In any case, I was playing very fast, and this is a perfect example of the fact I should take a step back more often to take the time to find alternative lines of play.
I could not believe the streak was still alive afterward! (probably undeserved)
A showcase of how problematic Latias can be if Scizor isn't around anymore. Heatran clutches up with a beautiful session of riveting PP stall.
Incredibly threatening team with a nightmare lead. I once again took a way too hasty decision, thinking this kind of lead warrants a trade to ensure removing Electivire, so I give up Scizor for it.
I think switching Scizor into Heatran + Protect, into a Lando switch into Rotom + Flamethrower to Electivire, into HP Water Electivire + Protect Heatran was the play. After that, if Volcarona has been QDing, I can TWave to keep it under control, though it admittedly would be getting scary.
In any case, the battle takes even more of a terrifying twist once Heatran, my only reliable Volcarona check, gets frozen.
The 600s were very eventful. This one is just a solid battle against threatening opponents.
Double Genie leads are never fun. Turn 1 goes very badly as I expect at least 1 hit into Scizor; a lazy assumption based on just a few previous instances. Realistically, it was probably a 50/50. The rest of the battle is me trying to recover from that turn 1 blunder.
This battle had me one Leaf Blade crit away from surely losing. I was acutely aware of it and sweating profusely as I saw the Lead Blade damage happen.
Seriously, I just couldn't catch a break in the 600s! Electivire lead strikes fear once again. I was taken by surprise by the AI self-targeting Thunder Punch to activate Motor Drive, and it certainly threw a wrench into my plan.
I saved this battle as a example of the fun of being granted the chance to SD multiple times upfront. Thanks to the safety net of the Lum, I can leave Scizor in on Volcarona safely.
+4 236+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 78-93 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 114-136 (59.4 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Leron keeps delivering the threats. This battle shows the power (and importance) of scouting sets with Protect when it's useful. I used to do it less, sometimes out of laziness. It's worth!!
Up to 553 in Super Doubles so far. I've not lost a team member in any battles for the last few hundred wins. Sometimes I will win with all pokes at full health.
If you don't mind gaming the system a bit, then you cant really lose with this:
Raichu @ Air Balloon
Ability: Lightening Rod
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Protect
- Hidden Power Ice
- Thunderbolt
Tailwind + Protect with Togekiss/Machamp. Then flinch and confuse everyone. If anyone comes out and looks to put an electric attack on Togekiss then Raichu comes in and with Lightening Rod + Nasty Plot is then absolutely unstoppable. The Air Balloon is there so you can still use Earthquake if you need it. Dragonite is not used often but sometimes a Trick Room will require he takes some hits and Outrages his way out of trouble.
Honestly, most of the time you will run through all 7 without even needing to change Togekiss/Machamp out.
I've also used Breloom and Omastar to good success, but Machamp can pretty much handle both of those jobs.
After a while it becomes quite predictable what they will do and when.
Like the previous Raichu lighteningbolt abuser said, they will just keep using electric attacks on you 90% of the time even after the first lighteningbolt is triggered.
Serene Grace + Air Slash and No Guard + Dynamic Punch is a reasonably filthy tactic, but a legitimate one. The AI gets hacky sometimes with secondary effects, critical hits, hitting Fissure and Sheer Cold regularly as well as avoiding 100% accurate attacks, so you need something to balance the field. A Battle Train AI using Double-Team or Minimize can make you sweat sometimes for sure.
User warned for trolling, please don't take their previous posts seriously.
Sure. I finally lost a pokemon from an Archeops + Exeggutor Head Smash + Ancient Power combo where nothing I could change out to would survive the attacks, so have been using this team instead now which has proven to rip through the trainers even quicker than using Togekiss/Raichu and has a bit more bulk to it:
Zapdos (Modest) @ Leftovers:
Ability: Pressure
252 SpA /252 Spe / 4 SpD
Hidden Power Ice
Thunderbolt
Tailwind
Roost
Machamp (Adamant) @ Shell Bell:
Ability: No Guard
252 Atk /120 SpD /128 Def /8 HP
Protect
Earthquake
Stone Edge
DynamicPunch
Heatran (Quiet) @ Sitrus Berry:
Ability: Flash Fire
252 Atk / 252 HP /4 Def
Protect
Earth Power
Dragon Pulse
Eruption
Vaporeon (Bold) @ Chesto Berry:
Ability: Water Absorb
252 SpA / 252 Def / 4 HP
Rest
Shadow Ball
Ice Beam
Muddy Water
I edited the Battle Subway Pokemon/Trainer Lookup Spreadsheet posted to have a nicer UI with sprites for pokemon and items. It's also simplified to give only pertinent info and load faster. Here's the link if anyone else could benefit from this!
I edited the Battle Subway Pokemon/Trainer Lookup Spreadsheet posted to have a nicer UI with sprites for pokemon and items. It's also simplified to give only pertinent info and load faster. Here's the link if anyone else could benefit from this!
I just lost my run on battle 47 to some pretty bad luck. It's not the worst you've ever seen, but I really thought I was going to finish the Subway today and was pretty excited about it.
My team was Scizor/Starmie/Dragonite with random IVs (though Dragonite I rolled a couple times and ended up with 27 Atk 30 Spe). I plugged my exact sets into the showdown calculator from PkHeX afterwards, but had been calc'ing with incomplete info on my IVs for this entire run.
vs Clerk Bank
Lead Honchkrow vs Scizor, I plan to SD into Steel Gem Bullet Punch to KO it. It uses Air Cutter and KOs with a crit. Assuming this had Super Luck to go with the raised crit chance, the crit was 25% and Air Cutter was 43.3% chance to OHKO after the crit, which added up to a 10.75% chance to be killed.
I send out Starmie and revenge kill with Ice Beam.
He sends out Crobat, which is a disaster for me. Crobat is one of the top 10 or so percent of Pokemon that outspeed a max speed neutral nature Starmie here. However, with perfect IVs in the calc, it says Brave Bird does 93% at the max roll. Brave Bird goes through and KOs without a crit. Plugging in the numbers later, the Crobat was actually 25% to kill.
I have to send out Dragonite here. I debate for awhile between going for Dragon Dance or just pressing Outrage and praying. It seemed like Brave Bird wasn't going to 2hko through Multiscale, but I couldn't be sure at this point. So, I clicked Outrage, and took the Brave Bird through Multiscale. The real calc showed that the 2nd Brave Bird would have been around a 1% chance to KO (outside of Razor Claw crit, which would have added another 1/8 roll) if I had chosen to DD then outrage.
Bank's final Pokemon was Beartic. My Outrage does about 2/3, and it clicks Avalanche, hits the 90% acc move, and my run is over. If I had DD'ed, the +1 Outrage would have been 50% to KO on the Beartic, but I don't know the roll that I ended up getting on the Outrage I actually used. This sequence of events added up to a 2.4% chance.
Oh well, will go again soon and beat Super Singles so I can move on to PWT.
Edit: I have been thinking about this way too much, but I realized that despite the 10%, my best move was actually to go straight to Starmie and click Ice Beam to guaranteed KO after the Honch's Life Orb recoil. I don't know the odds it would have randomly clicked Dark Pulse instead of Air Cutter that turn 1, it may have been 0. I didn't know the next 2 Pokemon, but then I would have been able to bring Scizor back in on Crobat, SD up then bullet punch for the KO, then clean up the Beartic.
Edit again: The Air Cutter crit still killed Starmie no matter what actually, so going for SD there was really my only play
Hello,
I am reporting a streak of 204 battles with my Hail team. I made a few optimizations: Whimsi now is Calm, and survives Charizards Heatwave + Kangaskhans Fake Out + Hail, aside from 2 max rolls (or crits). Also it has Giga Drain now, which also worked fine. I only missed Grass Knot sometimes against Terraktion. Furthermore, I now have a 5x31IVs Machamp, and put a bit into defense, because then he survives QC Bronzongs Zen Headbutt. In fact, iirc, no QC user now is able to OHKO it!
Sawk and Flareon. Usual Protect + Tailwind, both attacks in Protect.
Fake Tears + Blizzard kill Sawk, Flareon misses Firefang.
Volcarona comes in. FT on Volcarona, Blizzard. Heatwave + sth from Flareon. Abo dead, Whimsi almost.
Machamp in. SE kills Volcarona, Flareon kills Whimsi. Don’t know what I did with Whimsi anymore.
Gallade and Rotom in, very bad, as Tailwind is over. Gallade only had a guaranteed OHKO on Rotom, so I protect it, which was the right call and only winning option. EQ kills Flareon. Then cleanup Gallade next round, 1-0.
Against a Battle Girl.
Arcanine4 and Heracross4. Usual Protect + Tailwind, both attacks go in Protect. -2 Heracross may survive Blizzard, so I go for Fake Tears into Arcanine, to maybe kill both afterwards with Rotom. Blizzard, then Flareblitz kills Whimsi, Megahorn brings Abo to the Sash. Rotom in. Protect Abo against Extremespeed, and double KO with Rotom as planned.
In come Flareon and Volcarona. Flareon is no problem because it is outsped and OHKOed with EQ on the fly. But Volcarona is bad, because Tailwind will peter out next turn (easy win if Machamp was already in). I need every bit of damage on Volcarona, so Thunderbolt + Blizzard. Heatwave kills both of mine.
Machamp in. Hurricane must not crit or confuse, then I win with EQ, and this is what happened. EQ just did enough on Volcarona. 1-0
Against a Psychic.
Chandelure4 and Bronzong4. A tough matchup because TR + Heatwave. If Heatwave crits Whimsi is dead and cannot reset TR with Encore. I prepare for that and already start doing a bit of damage and go for Fake Tears in Chandelure + Blizzard. Heatwave, no crit on Whimsi, TR. That was the best I could hope for.
Now, Protect with Abo and Encore in Bronzong, who resets TR. Shadow Ball finishes Whimsi.
Rotom in. Thunderbolt takes out Chandelure, and I go for Giga Drain on Bronzong, because smartdumb thoughts: Bronzong keeps TRing and is no threat atm. But whatever will come in may be faster or slower than me. So, I want Bronzong to actually set and reset TR, in order for me to attack at the right time. That is why I went for Giga Drain and not for Blizzard which could have frozen (Edit: nevermind, Zong had Lum lol). Bronzong sets TR again.
In comes Metagross4. I protect Abo and go for Thunderbolt into Meta. Metas EQ does nothing. Bronzong removes TR once again.
Now I have a choice: Either finish Bronzong or Meta. Bronzongs Encore wore off, and I definitely did not want to face its Rockslide in TR, so I go for Thunderbolt which kills it, and Blizzard. Here the smarter play maybe was Giga Drain, because then Abo may have survived Metas EQ. It crits anyways though and killed Abo.
Machamp in, hoping something slow comes in. But in comes Espeon, which is very bad, since with Gem boosted Psychic it can kill either of mine. I was not sure whether Blizzard would finish Meta, so I double Protect and let them eat a round of Hail. Now, Blizzard definitely kills Meta. So, both EQ and Blizzard finish Meta, but I need to land two attacks on Espeon… I did not want to attempt a second Protect on Machamp, because Espeon can also OHKO Rotom, so I went for Dynamic Punch into Espeon and Blizzard. However Espeon takes out Champ. Blizzard finishes Meta, and I land in the situation I foresaw 2 turns ago: Rotom with 78 HP against Espeon with wasted Gem, which may fail to kill Rotom and then I win. I actually had landed a high roll Blizzard, and double Protect would kill Espeon now also because Hail. However it also has Morning Sun, so I rejected that. Should have went for it, then I had 50% chance of winning.
Espeon didn’t mess around and gets the Psychic range, which was 14/16 because I have only 22 SDef IVs. Chance would have been 11/16 otherwise. 0-1
Tough and intense battle from start to end. I planned carefully and long ahead, but it was not enough. TR + max SDef Fire type with spread move + max SDef Steel + fast Psychic in the end against Machamp was too much to handle.
-Resetting Hail against sand has priority, even if you expect 2 attacks against Abo.
-Volcarona deserves a special mention and is one of the most dangerous Fire mons, as it takes not much from EQ and is hard to KO in general aside from Stone Edge.
-Empoleon is tricky, as even with Fake Tears it stays around long, and it tends to kill Whimsi slowly, such that Tailwind runs out soon after Whimsi dies. This happened at least 2 times and lead to tense battles. So, one should not blindly prolong Whimsis life with Giga Drain, but sometimes let it die soon.
-Abomasnow should be even less bulky I think. So frail, that Gardevoir4 oneshots (-> 0HP, 0SDef IVs do the job). And obviously Rotom with 31 SDef IVs, as I maybe still would live now had it had it.
-Pursue double KOs, maybe even at the price of sacrificing something beforehand.
-I noted which FO user likes to go for Abo/Whimsi/None.
I am a bit disappointed, that I could only surpass my previous record with this team by 7 battles, and still could not surpass my personal best (211). I tried 2 or 3 times. One of them I lost at battle 115 due to saving the battle, but then not saving the game, after which I quit for several months :S The awesome records of Eisenherz and Coeur motivated me again. So cool teams! And I thought without R Inanimate we never see 1000 battles here.
Overall this streak was less lucky than my previous streak (one time double confusion saved me there). Aside from the Volcarona Hurricane battle, one other time I also would have lost if the opponent crits, but other than that it was rather solid.
Is it allowed to use pokemon obtained through diamond/pearl ACE? I don't mean like pokemon with impossible stats, moves, and abilities and stuff. This would make obtaining optimal pokemon way easier for any pokemon from gens 1-4. It also enables people to use pokemon that are hard to obtain like eruption heatran
Is it allowed to use pokemon obtained through diamond/pearl ACE? I don't mean like pokemon with impossible stats, moves, and abilities and stuff. This would make obtaining optimal pokemon way easier for any pokemon from gens 1-4. It also enables people to use pokemon that are hard to obtain like eruption heatran
I would not mind. Some people may mind and argue against leaderboard eligibility. But note, that the leaderboard is not updated anyways since years.
I'd be curious to see with what you come up with.
What started as just messing around with random rain builds has eventually turned into more rigorous efforts in teambuilding and battling, culminating in this streak. While I’m certainly not reinventing the wheel, I’m really satisfied with the final team, with some interesting ideas I haven’t seen around often.
I’m not very good at Pokemon. I’ve usually done the best with linear teams that constrict decision-making to leave little room for human error (though often at the expense of structural flaws in the team). When I was considering a team that I could potentially bring to 1000, rain was an obvious choice.
Anyone familiar with making a rain team can relate: you realize Politoed & Ludicolo make the best leads, and then that a backline Scizor is very effective at patching up the few weaknesses of the core. After that, it doesn’t really matter what you put in the last slot; Politoed / Ludicolo / Scizor is robust enough on its own that you have flexibility, and R Inanimate had already shown now over a decade ago that these teams can do well. Since there’s little reason to use anything else if you’re only looking for results, I aimed for marginal originality and forced myself to not use Scizor. This constraint proved to be more prohibitive than I initially thought, but I landed on these four members:
The reason this was so prohibitive is hail. Scizor-less teams do worse against quite a few things, but it’s when Abomasnow comes in that you really feel its absence. It wasn’t an easy matchup to begin with, but having a grass and ice resist with strong steel priority felt like the only thing rain had to consistently deal with Abomasnow & friends. To make up for Scizor’s absence, 99% of my teambuilding process has been solely focused on beating hail, and for the longest time it was to no avail...
I want to talk about lead Abomasnow on a high level. Should you find no Lum Scizor in your party, your options are not particularly appealing. The first is to use a very proactive Politoed that fights back from T1, but no matter what your exact set is (I’ve tried a bunch of things), that plan quickly falls apart if Abomasnow’s partner is faster and freezes Politoed. The result is also always pretty gimmicky: I’m ashamed to say that I briefly tried specs HP Fire Politoed, that’s how desperate I was; it doesn’t work well when Abomasnow 3 and 4, which make up ~70% of the Abomasnow encounters, have Focus Sash and Occa Berry respectively. As if that wasn’t enough, if the slightest thing goes wrong, you could eat a Wood Hammer, which is potentially a OHKO.
Your second option is to switch out on T1 to something that can better handle Abomasnow, and trigger Drizzle later on. The problem is that whatever switches in will likely eat at least one Blizzard (Cryogonal, Froslass and Jynx can make you eat 2+ Blizzards despite Fake Out support from Ludicolo). Toxicroak, for example, can’t afford to run Lum Berry, so it is not only exposed to potentially multiple freeze chances, it would also fold from the damage alone of two Blizzards (one if it’s a crit). Only Scizor and maybe Metagross could pull this off; Scizor is off-limits, and Metagross is worse in almost every way.
So is this dead in the teambuilder?
Fortunately, there is a third option. We need to bring Toxicroak in, but can’t let it take a hit. What if we slow switched?
Negative priority switch moves aren’t a thing in gen 5, but Politoed doesn’t get any switch moves anyway. Still, somehow, Eject Button (EB), this goofy item that I pictured alongside the likes of Ring Target and Float Stone, offers a unique solution to deal with hail.
The problem is that if your Politoed has an important, proactive role to play against hail, then you don’t like the risk of a freeze, but a Politoed that doesn't have that burden and wouldn’t mind the freeze ends up being not useful, and dead weight à la Cresselia. EB lets you get the best of both worlds, where Politoed is used for tanking Blizzards, and then gets out to make room for Toxicroak. Politoed, in a vacuum, is the weakest of all four members, yet is very precious, so switching it out 1) without losing momentum and 2) while taking hits for the backline is very, very, very valuable; I really can’t stress this enough. This was the turning point for the team, where the streak length stopped being determined by how many Ice Workers I happened to face.
But how do you control the trigger of EB? Won’t Politoed be forced out before attacking? Turns out rain and Ludicolo are the perfect fit to wield and control EB. First of all, Ludicolo is extremely fast and your own Surfs trigger EB, so outside of a couple faster sets and of priority, you can initiate the switch yourself. Additionally, Politoed has Helping Hand and Protect, so it can also either forcefully stay in or contribute before getting switched out. Overall, though, switching out is a good thing! It shouldn’t be seen as a disruption when the enemy triggers it, but as them helping you get a better position and protect your weather setter.
This is a breath of fresh air in the otherwise linear (read boring) hyper-offense rain archetype, with much more dynamic lines than anything else in rain I’ve tried. It’s sometimes difficult to justify switches in hyper offense when you could deal a gazillion damage instead, but EB makes the whole thing nimbler and more interactive.
Drizzle, Timid Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 116 Def / 212 SpA / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Stats: 166 HP / 72 Atk / 110 Def / 137 SpA / 121 SpD / 123 Spe
- Surf
- Perish Song
- Helping Hand
- Protect
Surf is obvious. One consequence of using EB is that you can’t use double Surf. At first glance this seems like a significant sacrifice, since it’s really the bread and butter of the Ludicolo + Politoed lead pair. However, I’ve come to find that double Surf is often more of a convenience than a necessity; there are always alternatives that, while not being as simple (or satisfying) as spamming Surf until you win, are just as effective.
Helping Hand (HH) is incredibly useful, since Politoed gets to act like the scarf set by increasing the “fast” damage output of Ludicolo without needed to hold a scarf. Best of all, HH + Surf triggers EB, so Politoed can “act like it just attacked” by boosting Ludicolo, then escape to safety before the enemy gets to move, which sets up for a Toxicroak Fake Out on T2. HH is also good moveset compression; this Politoed could never fit coverage, but in one single slot “borrows” the coverage of the other members. Ludicolo’s +crit +1 +HH Surf will OHKO Politoed (same with +crit +0 +HH Kingdra), and sometimes I’ve had to risk the crit, but so far only once would it have maybe affected the outcome of the game.
Protect is good.
Perish Song is absolutely needed for stall. Having three special water attackers means Toxicroak is spread very thin to handle everything else, so you can become vulnerable to passive SPD booster (and Blissey). I wouldn’t shy away from using Perish Song early in the game: either the enemy is down to 2 Pokemon when the count hits 1, or they are forced to switch out, losing all their boosts giving you momentum. I must admit I still don’t know exactly how the logic for switching out of Perish Song works in gen 5. I have seen 4v3 situations where the enemy could have switched, but didn’t, and I have seen a 4v4 where only one slot was switched out...
The use cases of EB are varied, but most fall under two categories. The first is using Ludicolo’s fast Surf to force Politoed out. This is better than a hard switch in two situations: 1) Politoed can use HH before leaving, or 2) when Politoed ends up faster than Ludicolo (outside rain, in Trick Room, after a -2 speed drop on Ludicolo, etc.), where it can attack before being forced out. The second use case is taking a hit from the opponent before switching for something else, protecting whatever gets brought in from taking damage (protecting Toxicroak’s sash) and / or status.
I’m happy with the EVs, but I suspect there’s more room for experimentation. The last modification I made was dropping to 123 speed at around ~850 wins. While EB sort of rewards you for being fast so you can attack before being forced out, this speed ensures Tyranitar 2 and 3 are faster, meaning Drizzle will trigger after and rain will win. I also went with 137 SPA, which lets Politoed reach 110 DEF. This avoids the OHKO on Abomasnow 3’s Wood Hammer, meaning it goes for Blizzard instead. Guaranteeing that sets 1, 3, and 4 all go for a spread ice move is very important for EB slow switching. Set 2’s Wood Hammer is still a OHKO, but that set is pretty rare, and janitors crucially don’t carry it.
Swift Swim, Modest Nature
EVs: 44 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Stats: 161 HP / 81 Atk / 91 Def / 156 SpA / 121 SpD / 116* Spe
- Surf
- Giga Drain
- Fake Out
- Ice Beam
This set is a lot more standard. Absorb Bulb remains the best choice despite EB meaning that Politoed doesn’t get to trigger it as often as on scarf sets. You still get great value out of it, and if you absolutely need a boost on any particular turn, you always have HH.
The moves are intuitive, but replacing Grass Knot by Giga Drain was a change I ended up being really satisfied with. It’s hard to quantify the impact that healing has on the outcome of the battles, but it felt very significant. The chip from your own Surfs can often really add up, and just this bit of healing can keep Ludicolo alive for one more crucial turn or avoid being in range of priority (Conkeldurr’s Mach Punch or Sucker Punch sets). Purely damage-wise, it misses a few OHKOs here and there (Wailord, Swampert, Dewgong, Starmie), but the main loss is Walrein-4, which isn’t a OHKO at +1 anymore. In exchange, Giga Drain helps against Whiscash, Lanturn, Gastrodon, and Vaporeon.
EVs are pretty simple, with 116 speed outstpeeding scarf Garchomp under rain (only scarf Entei, Terrakion, Manectric, as well as a few Swift Swim sets are faster). I toyed with different speeds and bulk, but scarf Garchomp ends up being too important to not outspeed.
Ludicolo is the strongest member of the team on paper, but it’s also the most expandable in practice. It’s not uncommon to let it drop, even on turn 1, for Kingdra to sweep after (especially since on that sweep turn you can bring Toxicroak in and set up for a FA the next turn).
Dry Skin, Adamant Nature
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 220 Spe
Stats: 161 HP / 173 Atk / 86 Def / 86 SpA / 87 SpD / 133 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Taunt
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
This is the “Scizor” of this team, the only physical attacker, and a jack-of-all-trades that fits really well with the other members. Focus Sash is pretty mandatory, and is a good way to neuter the effects of x2 crits in these games.
Double Fake Out is a luxury I didn’t know I’d enjoy so much. It can be downright oppressive to ignore some threats for multiple turns, especially considering how easy it is to bring Toxicroak in through EB.
Drain Punch and Sucker Punch are not the strongest moves around, but they are perfect for key gaps in coverage (ice, especially Abomasnow, normal, psychic, and ghost). It may not OHKO on its own, but with ally Surfs it works well. Again, the heal from Drain Punch easy to underappreciate.
Taunt is important for Trick Room and is the other main anti-stall tool. It's also useful against some weather setters, the odd all-status-moves set, and some attempted setups.
Toxicroak is an excellent bait. Not only is it quite frail, but it baits all non-Surf water moves (that the enemy sees as boosted by rain). The enemy will never learn from its mistake even after seeing the Dry Skin trigger, meaning you can easily engineer a 2v1 where one enemy just does nothing. It also baits psychic moves very effectively, allowing for Sucker Punch to pick up some of the frailer psychics / ghosts.
While being frail, Toxicroak ends up having the most longevity in the team. The passive rain heal, the Surf immunity (and 25% heal), the odd enemy water move, and some Drain Punch heal can easily add up to >50% per turn while you’re still attacking. Rain + Surf alone is 38%! I have healed from 1HP to full on a couple occasions; if only sash were reusable like Sturdy…
Swift Swim, Modest Nature
EVs: 44 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 196 Spe
Stats: 156 HP / 90 Atk / 116 Def / 161 SpA / 117 SpD / 130* Spe
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect
- Ice Beam
Another simple set, and an effective backup attacker for when Ludicolo falls.
Protect is great here. There’s a semi-common situation where the weather is not rain, Politoed was just EBed away, and you need to bring something in. Instead of sending Toxicroak (to use FA while the other slot pivots to Politoed), a more resilient play is to bring Kingdra, and Protect while you switch Politoed in, guaranteeing you have a Kingdra under rain for the next turn. If Politoed dies on the switch, it gives you the chance to bring in Toxicroak with an active FA, which is usually enough of a position to win.
The only issue with Kingdra is its lack of longevity. It doesn’t have Giga Drain, and Surf + Life Orb chip really adds up. It’s still great at cleaning up, though, and that doesn’t require much bulk.
This Kingdra is faster than the entire Subway under Rain, except a few Swift Swim sets (Floatzel, Seismitoed). Crucially, it’s faster than all enemy Kingdra sets, though Kingdra 2 can take a Dragon Pulse with Haban Berry.
: I’ll keep it brief here. This is the #1 threat, and the answer usually boils down to a safe EB switch into Toxicroak. For any Abomasnow partner that’s slower than Toxicroak, it’s usually better to pick up Abomasnow ASAP with Drain Punch on T2, since removing the water resist opens the door to Surf sweeps later. For faster partners, it depends. Jynx is a clean KO with Sucker Punch, but Froslass and Cryogonal will require help. Depending on the exact set, you either want to Sucker Punch the fast partner or “risk” a Drain Punch on Abomasnow.
If you’ll allow me a piece of advice, don’t KO something just because you can. Taking out the easy target instead of dealing with its threatening partner can quickly backfire if Abomasnow comes in. FA is dangerous in that regard: “ignoring” dangerous sets for a turn is one of the most powerful things you can do in doubles, and it's terribly addictive, but it’s very easy to use it to procrastinate (taking easy KOs instead of dealing with strong threats). I lost my first big run with EB Politoed at 600-ish because I KOed an unthreatening Typhlosion on T1 with a FA on Zapdos-4. When Abomasnow came in in Typhlosion's slot, all it took was an untimely Thunderbolt paralysis and a crit to end the run.
: Since dropping Politoed’s speed to 123, Tyranitar is now pretty manageable. Sets 2-3 are faster than Politoed, so you win the weather war from T1. Sets 1 and 4 can be a little trouble, but you can safely double Surf for big damage (assuming no fast partner like Sand Rush Excadrill) and for a convenient EB switch out.
: Not really a problem, but I felt he deserved a mention as a sand setter. Hippo just uses Curse and Rest when it’s chipped enough, so it’s really not that bad. Even with floating partners it can be shy to use Earthquake.
: Because it’s immune to FA, it’s the only set that can reliably set Trick Room. I personally encountered what felt like a disproportionate amount of Dusknoir 4 + Conkeldurr, which is always a pain to deal with. It’s usually a good idea to keep Dusknoir on the field under TR, as it’s a bit of dead weight. For TR in general, you want to use Giga Drain to stay healthy and dodge some KO ranges (Conkeldurr 2, Shiftry 1, etc.), and of course use Protect a lot. Just watch out for the surprise Destiny Bond at the end.
: Quick Claw Gunk Shot, and good special bulk… Not much to say here, except that switching Ludicolo to Toxicroak can be a good idea.
: Probably the worst legendary to face because it can do so many things: Ice Gem Blizzard you, set hail up, set tailwind up, all while having good special bulk. This is a high-priority FA target, and always look for the Pressure vs. Drizzle trigger order to find out if it’s a slow or fast set.
: Politoed doesn’t carry Psychic, so there’s no easy way to get rid of it and no way to trigger Anticipation to rule out Dry Skin. Often I let it take Ludicolo down in exchange for other KOs, and then clean up with something else. My own Toxicroak can actually box pretty well against if it comes down to it.
: Seismitoed 3 and 4 are faster than both Ludicolo and Kingdra, and both sets carry poison moves, but none of them are OHKOs on Ludicolo. When given the option it always prefers a KO on Toxicroak with ground moves, so it’s not unreasonable to deal with it. (
is no problem by the way)
Following on the previous spreadsheet talk, here’s my work. I think a couple of you might find this useful: it has a clean UI, integrated damage calcs and an easy way to record and display notes on specific sets.
Thank you for reading! I might continue this streak later, but I’ll take a break for now. I have some silly doubles ideas I want to try, and I might do some singles as well.
The team is the same Cloyster / Gliscor / Chansey "Bermuda triangle" from my recent-ish 787 run in the Maison, and me giving Subway a proper whirl is in a sense kind of unexpected; I genuinely never really played it other than defeating Ingo + Emmet like a decade ago on White 2 with Jumpman's Suizorus and R Inanimate's Ludicolo rain and pretty much permanently abandoning those streaks at 49 after because bleh copycat teams in the same facility (this run is even on Black 2 since I like my name here better...), due to a combination of Unova being possibly my least played pre-Switch generation and the Maison being right there when I wanted to try things out with mostly the same opposition but a wider range of options on my end. Other than my 116 Suizomence run in Platinum's Tower to scoop up in-game achievements and also get my black Trainer card I've just never had a reason to go back in time before gen 6, but with a lot of my playing this year being partly fuelled by wanting to also play non-Maison facilities I also was gonna take an excuse to play older gens if one materialised. So, there are two important bits of context to this run happening.
- My Maison run; it had not escaped my notice that this team was directly backportable into here, and especially with the Subway being similar setwise but different mechanically therefore interesting to check out by default that was a gauntlet I could hardly justify not picking up after having thrown it down myself.
- Old RNG adventures when I learned how those things worked in 2014/2015 where I ended up doing a full gen 4 legendary gamut "just in case" but also ended up doing the same thing for certain rare old tutor moves; think Sucker Punch Hitmontop that I've used on some random triples trophy runs, but the real prizes are in Emerald, where I already got Counter Gengar and Soft-Boiled Cleffa a decade ago and Counter Skarmory and JEJUNUM last year. A particularly big fish though is Seismic Toss Chansey, which thankfully was given some pretty reasonable accessibility in gen 6 but before that time was pretty up there for one of the most complicated Pokemon to obtain on-cart period, and I *did* actually want one of those to have my bases covered in case I ever wanted to try out Battle Pike or Battle Pyramid, where in my noob brain Blissey seems close to mandatory for beginner teams that don't want to make do with Miltank, or get more serious about certain gen 4 facilities. I tried working on it earlier but got scared and sidetracked out of it multiple times since having to hatch a 10k steps Egg to verify every attempt at a 60fps reset plus having to pull it off three times or so to finish the IV breeding chain is just straight up masochist, and needless to say I'd already lost lots of steam after Gengar and Cleffa. Regardless, long story short, a couple months ago I finally got that Chansey done for real after it had technically been on my todo for like 9 years. Now having it finished period was of course nice for the challenge and all from some sort of trophy case pov, but ultimately this is still a battling game and even if they weren't spent on it at all consistently 9 years is quite a lot of time to get nothing out of it than just bragging rights; so, a place to actually use it and by extension a proper end goal for all that time spent breeding it is its own good to help me not question my life choices as much. It was not Pike or Pyramid or Arcade, but this still was an actual good use case to give this Chansey actual playtime and I kind of was obligated to go for it.
I've commented some more on the teambuilding process in the Maison post, but in short it follows a largely similar pattern as Peterko's Cloyster/Garchomp/Suicune except provides a slightly different take. Gliscor was the first Pokemon added to complement Cloyster, since a Ground-type is all but mandatory when leading with the biggest Thunderbolt (and by extension parahax) bait in existence and unlike in BDSP it's an actual Pokemon here, and while not quite as good at this as Mega Gyarados on Marathon on account of still not wanting to lose its Sash when setting up on weakened enemies, Cloyster would still get some +6 setups in happy matchups when Gliscor could stall enemies down to just Rest or a setup move or whatever. With Gliscor taking the Garchomp role, I also needed something in the Suicune position (bulky Water counter), and without the momentum Garchomp brings to the table Cloyster + Gliscor additionally left a hole to certain special attackers (think Starmie, and also Latios/Latias in only very moderately compromised board positions), which Chansey was a natural fit to patch up. Let's get the sets out of the way first and save the real interesting stuff, the comparison with the Maison, for after. I'll try not to repeat too much from my Maison post but still hope to keep this writeup self-contained.
The classic set, where sweeping with boosted Skill Link Icicle Spear and not caring about Sash/Sturdy or Yache Berry is the dream and we've known since Peterko's days that Naughty Surf is the optimal Water move over Adamant Razor Shell because of the perfect accuracy and, in some cases, the "mixed" coverage. The EV spread can't exactly be made less uncomplicated than this; a single Speed point cut is all that's feasible in order to keep the jump on Terrakion-2 after a boost, and Gyarados-1's existence also makes it actively superior even in the face of "why not just go for the extra Speed ties when 4 vs 12 SpA is a massive wash anyways". Underspeeding Gyarados by a single point removes the incentive it may have had to click Thunder Wave, and when having to click Smash on an unknown Gyarados set, relative Speed tiers instantly confirming if this Dragon Dance set is 1 or 3 (needs to be taken out by +1 Spear right away) or 4 (needs an extra Smash) is extremely handy as well. A potential tweak is to move two more points into Special Attack from Attack to guarantee the OHKO on Chandelure with +2 Surf, but that only comes into play anyways if it comes out second after Cloyster defeats the opposing lead with a single Smash not to mention this also narrows down the roster of potential threatening 3rd mons a lot, and cutting Attack on a main sweeper makes me nervous about overlooking any less straightforward situations on mass calcs (same reason why I don't believe in 4/244/4/4 spreads).
Rock Blast is the perpetual elephant in the room because of its awful accuracy, and there are a number of niche options to consider over it. I ran Explosion in BDSP but this is not an option I recommend without knowing full teams in advance; Substitute can be used to escape from Perish Song and at least is slightly more sane than in Maison with old Mismagius-4 existing though its issue of embracing a stalemate and effective Cloyster sack versus Lapras over a mostly-assured win remains; Protect is not half bad for messing with HJK users (notably Medicham3) and Fake Out revenge killers; and Torment can make positioning versus wallbreakers a lot easier but this team is for the most part fully capable of just killing or neutering them anyways, and Protect into unboosted Spear would be a better way of dealing with lead Medicham-3 anyways.
We are still sticking with Rock Blast though, because overall the other options are mostly based in blind inaccurate move avoidance and lose more valuable targets than they gain. The first thing to be aware of is that the list of genuine targets is short, since yes if there is any other reliable way to deal with them at all then it's by default better, so e.g. Volcarona is Chansey food instead and is just not too much of a factor in this argument; however, battles don't stop at the lead matchup, and things may come in second on a +2 Cloyster with a broken Sash that goes down to +2 Rock Blast but nothing else. Now yes of course even in a scenario where Cloyster falls I can still beat them with Gliscor + Chansey, but they might still struggle with the mystery 3rd enemy, and all that dropping Rock Blast for a random utility move accomplishes in this scenario is increase the odds of them having to face this one down alone from 10% to 100%, and with the Subway AI's increased unpredictability compared to the Maison (no more switching 1 HP Cloyster out for Gliscor into Regice's "telegraphed" Electric move) it may not be too wise to look for cute lines to avoid using Rock Blast on backups at all cost.
90% accuracy is also deceptive, since targets where you genuinely get only a single shot are rare if not nonexistent, and if you have multiple chances then that also boosts effective accuracy to 99%. I won't break down the list of actual lead targets as thoroughly as I did in the Maison post, but obvious overlapping cases include Weavile and Vanilluxe, which resist Icicle Spear and have Taunt to potentially either stop boosts outright or limit me to just one, and while Chansey can and will certainly beat them it's once again Taunt that leaves it in a pretty compromised position there. Infernape is another, since Subway AI's absurd preference towards Encore means I can actually safely click Smash on this turn 1 on this, and even if Rock Blast misses after I can simply take it out with Icicle Spear after the CC drops. The alternative would be taking the Maison line of Gliscor, which "works" but also leaves me open to just losing Gliscor to a Blaze Flare Blitz crit and best case scenario means I end up with a non-Subbed and heavily chipped Gliscor. On top of that, there is also Subway-specific dynamics in the form of heavily increased number of Trainers with set ambiguity, who may run that one set that I can't easily afford to give momentum (think Ice Workers leading with Beartic where you don't exactly want to see set 3 click SD on the switch out) so I "have to" go for the +2 Rock Blast just to cover for that one. It's not limited to lead matchups either; think Pilots or starter breeders, who are much more likely to force Smash + Spear as a middle ground turn 1 play and by extension are also much more likely to put me in similar situations where Cloyster has nothing better to do anymore anyway than just trying to simplify the battle with +2 Rock Blast. Overall yes you should always look for a different plan A in cases where you'd want to click Rock Blast (and in most cases you can find those as well), but Rock Blast still adds upside in the narrow-ish range of matchups where there is nothing better, and without it you're mostly just giving up most of those entirely for even more narrow gain.
The Gliscor set that plays an all-round role where it also takes down enemies on its own and not just a pure PP staller. Everyone knows what this thing does, namely use SubProtect to stall down enemies with Toxic or stall out dangerous moves for teammates to take advantage of, with Earthquake hitting almost everything that isn't affected by Toxic and also letting Gliscor take down a lot of slower enemies while maintaing a Sub (e.g. things that can't break its Sub in one hit or let it get free Subs on status moves). The EV spread is simply recycled from the Maison run; the Speed still holds (notably Mismagius4 so it doesn't outspeed my entire team if it shows up at a bad time), and while the most specific bulk target used (Barbaracle4) is currently hiding away in the future, the overall angle of "mixed bulk with slightly physical lean because mixed plays most self-sufficiently but I also have a Chansey right here" is still valid. One change worth considering is adding an extra Speed point to avoid the tie with +1 Emboar3 and force it into another Flame Charge, but at that point you end up tying with Emboar4 which is arguably worse so you'd have to go even further, and I didn't really want to deal with the additional changing variables of extra bulk cuts. There is not exactly a whole lot to explain otherwise, so I'll go ahead and say a few words about Earthquake versus Bulldoze. This team in general does need the more self-sufficient Toxic Gliscor set over the pure PP staller that is Bulldoze + Double Team with Cloyster not being a good all eggs in one basket sweeper, but while in Maison I've panned the option of Bulldoze + Toxic before on account of being worst of both worlds (i.e. Bulldoze's lack of power compared to Earthquake being self-defeating when you're using a Gliscor that wants to also kill things on its own), I have considered Bulldoze more seriously here, mainly because of old crits. I'll say more about this later, but think Arcanine, which you're more or less forced to just take out with Earthquake right away just to not play with the odds of being insta-knocked out of Substitute range, with major headache consequences, and where the Speed drop taking this scenario out of the equation entirely would help a lot. Still though the Speed drop is also fundamentally at odds with "slower Gliscor is better because it has better odds of winning with an intact Sub", and here too Earthquake's extra power is not something to gloss over. While cases like Toxicroak are a bit more shrug because the Speed drop allows you to functionally "OHKO" them with Bulldoze as well, you outspeed Bisharp regardless and it's enough of a headache without getting supercharged by Defiant, and that one is not the only case of the power being important on slower targets. Two examples that come to mind right away are Belly Drummers Thick Fat Hariyama4, which is put pretty cleanly in Earthquake range after +2 Icicle Spear and a Belly Drum, and Snorlax4, which also is a guaranteed Earthquake KO after Belly Drum + Sitrus Berry + clicking Double-Edge into Sub nine times. Hariyama is pretty bs to face for this team either way tbh, but Snorlax in particular is solved as cleanly as it gets this way and would be pretty awful without access to good burst damage to finish it off. There's more where that came from too but I never have a lot of them handy off the top of my head when I'm not here on a mission to prove a point of Earthquake > Bulldoze or whatever.
Slightly imperfect IVs because my Emerald kept hitting alternate spreads when I was on the final step in the breeding chain, and this was "good enough" when I wanted to just get it over with after all those years. The 0 Attack IV is a nice bonus that of course is not in any universe more important than the defensive IVs, but it is funny to see confusion self-hits do literally 3 HP damage. In any case, this is the Growl Chansey set invented by VaporeonIce when he first showed the world team Growl / team Aegimensey, and its purpose is threefold or maybe even fourfold: of course it helps make Chansey impenetrable to physical attacks on top of its natural pseudo-immunity to special attacks, it also lets other teammates take advantage of weakened physical attackers, and it provides a "skip turn" button with nearly infinite PP for stalling down enemies in general. A special use case is pretty much fully neutering Curse boosters, which you simply sit in front of and spam down with Growl. On VaporeonIce's team it could do the same thing with Dragon Dance users, which is a lot sketchier here without Salamence's Intimidate and the additional scare factor of old crits, but lines like this are still potential options to keep in mind depending on board state. It was a pretty natural choice when I decided to pair Chansey with Gliscor; the main issue to address with Chansey is the momentum loss it leaves the team open when it KOes an opposing lead by itself, where I think something like Substitute is kind of a half-measure since it only provides a single extra free turn which may mean little to nothing in the face of an actual hard counter or dangerous booster, but Growl's ability to actually support teammates opens up a ton more potential lines of play. You know how it goes, physical attacker that might be able to break Gliscor comes out versus Chansey, Growl once or twice, and oops Gliscor handles it fine. Iirc in the Maison post I said that I kind of overestimated this particular line of play, but now that I've had to dig deeper into the team's toolkit I've once again come around on that; think using it to allow Gliscor to maintain a Sub versus a moderate-strength physical attacker, which is of course great both for preserving Gliscor's PP and for better positioning against whatever comes out next.
The set shouldn't need much explanation otherwise and a lot of things I could say would be detailed repeating of the Maison report, but I should say that I have reconsidered if I truly "need" Toxic due to a few changes in playstyle that mean I've been using it less and the fact that old crits and freeze hax really do suck enough to consider Substitute on enemies that have been weakened enough. In the Maison post I also mentioned that Toxic doubles as de facto crit protection, since once the enemy is on the counter you're just Soft-Boiled spamming your way through crits anyways, but while that's certainly still the case to an extent, with the lunacy that is old crits I'm a lot less confident in this take here. Fact of the matter remains though that Chandelure and Volcarona still exist, with their ability to boost all over Chansey that's actually even worse in this generation, plus Flame Body and Will-O-Wisp for a significant artificial extra power boost on their attacks. Yuck!
That should explain everyone's toolkits properly, and from an overall synergy pov the goal is obviously to defeat the lead while putting myself in the optimal position for any backups, where PP stalling of dangerous moves is a very important and common angle. This can go extremely far, and tools you have include Chansey's Growl, Gliscor's Sub/Protect, and switch-stalls where sheer bulk alone goes a super long way of course but immunities also help a lot, allowing Gliscor + Chansey to stall out Ghost / Ground or Ghost / Electric move users like Golurk and Drifblim without breaking a sweat. This capability is so strong that, barring certain gen 5-specific AI quirks like them preferring to use Rest before Toxic on an already statused enemy, you can for the most part just keep an eye out for sets with "stale" moves that can't touch Cloyster, like Substitute, Fake Out, recovery moves, Helping Hand, and (as long as they don't let them break through Gliscor or Chansey during the stall, like Swords Dance) boosting moves; as long as a set has one of those, odds are that you can just stall it out of everything else and set Cloyster up to +6 with an intact Sash.
Overall, the rough priority ranking of optimal lead matchup outcomes is as follows:
- Cloyster at +6 with Sash intact;
- Gliscor with a Sub;
- Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOes the opposing lead with an unboosted attack;
- Any Cloyster setup with a broken Sash;
- Gliscor KOes the opposing lead without a Sub;
- Chansey KOes the opposing lead;
- Gliscor KOes the opposing lead at the cost of a lot of Sub/Protect PP;
- Cloyster KOes the opposing lead without a boost while losing its Sash.
with Cloyster at +2 with intact Sash technically in second place ofc but that's hard to get consistently and mostly happens against predictable Encores or Protects or whatever. This priority is also not super strict; in particular, while usually a +6 Cloyster setup is overrated if it comes at the cost of its Sash (i.e. if it sets up on weakened attacks) because you may be a single Quick Claw or Brightpowder proc away from losing it and the more "neutral" state of Sub Gliscor is a very risk-free position to be in, against certain more narrow rosters this risk may be low enough to get away with this, at which point the assured-enough sweep is its own good ofc. The amount of damage Cloyster takes during setup is another thing ofc if it means it stays out of range of priority attacks, etc you name it. Normally I'd include a lead notes sample here, but for Subway that's a bit harder with all the pre-battle 40 sets surviving forever, and the one in the Maison post gives a good enough impression. Do let me know if I need to explain anything else though!
Another factor that's relevant to consider is one where we need to start moving away from talking in broad strokes and move to a more Subway-specific mechanics: old crits. Take a look at this:
252 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 36+ Def Gliscor on a critical hit: 135-159 (76.3 - 89.8%); recoil damage: 45-53 (27.3 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
In the Maison, lead Arcanine is easy; just go to Gliscor on the obvious Close Combat, Sub/Protect stall Flare Blitz, Toxic stall it down its last couple turns to win with Sub. Over here though this would leave us with a 1/16 chance of just losing Gliscor, finishing off with unboosted Surf (because lmao Close Combat with the Shell Smash Defense drop can put us into Extreme Speed range even without a crit), and praying the rest of the team isn't too bad. And not even moving all the special bulk over here as well is enough to rule this out effectively. So, instead we're just clicking an immediate Earthquake to OHKO it through the Close Combat drop, and if it comes out later in the game (e.g. on a boosted Cloyster chipped into Extreme Speed range), we don't even have that option and just kind of have to risk the crit.
Maybe I'm just not respecting Arcanine too much; one way or another this is still a 120 BP STAB move off a beefy-enough base Attack stat. But it's also a Jolly nature without a boosting item. And a neutral hit into a Pokemon with almost Suicune-level natural physical bulk plus a pretty decent amount of investment. Surely I'm not that entitled for feeling like this should be a better counter than it is in practice? While I guess a lot of newgen mechanic changes can be a matter of taste, this really just seems like a fundamentally unbalanced mechanic where the big nerf couldn't have come too soon, and one could argue that even with the multiplier drop it also required the reduction of the odds to 1/24 to truly become a positive-enough factor in this game.
Now thankfully this was a calc that I ended up running and planning around before it ever actually got nasty. Let's take a look at some that have actually happened though.
+2 252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 212 HP / 36+ Def Gliscor on a critical hit: 172-204 (97.2 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Part 1 of shitty Psychic / Fighting types posing a major headache for these three, a genuinely weak attack on an unfunny set that goes by Gallade-1 and runs Swords Dance, Psycho Cut, Brick Break, and Shadow Sneak, max/max Hasty @ Expert Belt. You know how these things go; Cloyster sets up on the lead while being knocked down to its Sash, it takes out the lead and the second Pokemon, then this thing comes out and picks it off with Shadow Sneak. In the interest of not getting cute and going straight for the win to limit potential hax, you try going for the 2HKO with Earthquake while it boosts, gets the textbook Murphy's law critical hit proc, and also finishes off Chansey after, and oops that's the end of that attempt. This was actually my very first loss with this team, and att you shrug it off because "lol 12 battles in, shit happens sometimes", but when it not much later bops another attempt in the exact same way when you're in the process of learning the hard way that Lansat is actually not quite as free here for this team as a somehow actually unlucky 787-1 Maison record might imply and you're also aware that no set ever entirely stops disappearing, this goes from a crappy set 1 Pokemon to something you keep a permanent warning flag for in the sheet on any Trainer that may have it, just like another Psychic / Fighting type that we'll get to later.
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 390-460 (109.2 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Escavalier-3 is yucky because it won't allow Gliscor to beat it with a Sub up; Escavalier-4 is "fine" in this regard because it has Swagger to waste turns on while Swords Dance on the other two sets means you're quite content to beat them at all. For the sake of better positioning this is a matchup where I use Growl to stop it from breaking Gliscor's Subs, and it should be noted that it tends to want to get in three Iron Defense boosts quickly, meaning the crit risk is pretty low in practice. When it does happen you get something stupid like this though, and this one actually marked the end of a 268-win streak when an unknown Haxorus set comes in after, I can't Toxic it immediately because it might be the Band set, and it's actually set 2 that ends up outplaying me with Dragon Dance vs. Outrage and ends up breaking through Gliscor when it attacks on the turn I click Toxic. Cloyster still revenge kills but without its Sash loses to lastmon Garchomp, even if that's Garchomp-1 not having the decency to miss Sand Tomb.
For what it's worth it's true that you can argue that risking this crit was a misplay after all, since Gliscor "could" have stalled down Escavalier through Life Orb recoil entirely, at the cost of most of its Sub/Protect PP and not winning with an intact Sub; basically, this is a choice between risking the crit vs facing odds of backups that can have their way with a mostly depleted Gliscor, and I don't plan to pretend that the line of play I used here is the unilaterally correct one.
0 SpA Whiscash Muddy Water vs. 212 HP / 164 SpD Gliscor on a critical hit: 182-216 (102.8 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Okay, sure, expecting Gliscor to just facetank super effective STAB crits is slightly more entitled than feeling like it should be a hard counter to Arcanine. Off of Maison muscle memory this is actually an extremely clean Cloyster setup though, when Gliscor can switch into this with complete safety, stall out Muddy Water, switch-stall Fissure, and leave the free turns from the remaining RestTalk PP to Cloyster to do its thing. In this gen though this crit ended up killing one of my runs at 120-ish, when it forced me to just go for the +2 Cloyster sweep and Whiscash clicked and hit Fissure right away, allowing followup Hariyama-4 to pick Cloyster off with Bullet Punch and have its way with Chansey. Now the existence of this crit means that this was actually a misplay, but the "right" play is a nice testament to how much more difficult this mechanic can make things, since... yes in makeshift Walrein4 fashion you actually go to Chansey first and hope all Muddy Water PP get wasted before it lands a Fissure (pretty good odds in practice fwiw but shrug), and if Chansey does get hit with Fissure then I guess there is your free switch to Gliscor to set the Maison plan in motion after all. No way to avoid risking Chansey to Fissure here, and in the battle in question even if I'd played it right Hariyama-4 would actually have taken out our +6 Cloyster with intact Sash if it was Thick Fat, at which point we have a non-Subbed Cloyster forced to take on whatever is coming in third. Granted at this point that is more of a testament to Hariyama's threat level rather than Whiscash's, but this is one 1/16th chance that makes for a major headache or two that I could do without.
-6 252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 212 HP / 164 SpD Gliscor on a critical hit: 157-186 (88.7 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Okay, this one did not actually happen, but on Heatran-3's Solar Beam it did after I got my headcalcs mixed up with the Maison again, which is the exact same roll anyways except this one is the more painful example and tedious matchup. You can't at all switch Gliscor into lead Heatran's potential Fire moves or Wisp, and while Chansey beats any Heatran set one-on-one without breaking too much of a sweat, but since winning with a Gliscor Sub is categorically better with its overall absurd Veteran matchup and Chansey's risk of baiting Terrakion in second, finding any line at all for an opening is good. Heatran charging Solar Beam on the Chansey switch is good, but it getting both the crit and the roll after is less good, and after it also burns Chansey when it uses its only Fire Blast on the final Seismic Toss the way the rest of the battle goes is Chansey managing to trade itself for followup Latios4 and mystery Pokemon Regice3 falling to fresh Cloyster in a scenario that hopefully never has to happen again. Anyways, an earlier strat against Heatran2 involved switching to it after it was made safe by Overheat being gone and Chansey already having a burn active, but since like I said a Flash Cannon crit is the same roll to gamble with, that's also unwise. Soooo currently on Heatran-3 I'm Growl stalling Fire Blast and Solar Beam before I make the switch, while Heatran-2 gets stalled out of, well, everything. School of hard knocks for forcing me to make good plays I suppose.
+4 0 SpA Chandelure Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 300-354 (84 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after burn damage
lol chande is so funny. At least this one also has not actually happened...
We need to talk about weather as well, namely gen 5 Sand Stream and Snow Cloak's permaweather, where even though Gliscor obviously doesn't care about the former and Cloyster's Sash is immune to the latter, it was very much on my radar as something that would make things Different here compared to the Maison.
Tyranitar in particular I was scared of; while 99% of them are set 4 in the Maison, which is hard countered by Gliscor, here we have Sand Workers (and also Hikers), who will run any set. For reference:
377 Tyranitar-1 Impish Iron Ball Rock Slide Stealth Rock Thunder Wave Fling HP/SpD
552 Tyranitar-2 Hasty King's Rock Rock Slide Crunch Ice Beam Dragon Dance Atk/Spe
727 Tyranitar-3 Jolly Chople Berry Stone Edge Crunch Earthquake Dragon Dance Atk/Spe
902 Tyranitar-4 Brave Focus Sash Rock Slide Earthquake Superpower Dragon Tail HP/Atk
where you'll see a funny pattern that set 1 and 4 are Gliscor food but set 2 and 3 pretty much run away with the game on the spot if they click DD on the switch. So for better or worse that makes decisions a bit easier I guess and we just have to click Shell Smash turn 1. Sets 1 and 4 will either functionally or entirely take out Cloyster for the game here, but "most expendable team member" etc and Gliscor's Sand Worker matchup in particular is fine overall, and the silver lining is that sets 2 and 3 don't have a KO on Cloyster. Set 2 will "always" (knock on wood) open with Dragon Dance while set 3 does more often than not, at which point they're both simply outsped and one-shot, and even if set 3 does open with Stone Edge to take out Cloyster with sand chip, that at least means it's not boosting, and Gliscor has a decent matchup here in a neutral board state. For extra funnies sand means that even in a best case scenario Cloyster is pretty much always on a +2 kamikaze mission after turn 1, with Sash instantly being negated even if they do choose to DD. Hippowdon is not so bad in the sense that Curse sets aren't capable of breaking through Chansey even with sand's constant chip damage and you can still get a +6 Cloyster on its four remaining Curse turns and whatever Rests or Protects it may have left, except unlike in Maison it does come at the cost of Focus Sash here. That goes against the above priority brackets which would dictate winning with Gliscor here, and you can't even say that Cloyster can make do without Sash's insurance here, with Sand Veil Garchomp and Brightpowder Sand Rush Excadrill among potential backups; however, one way or another Sash is just not an item in this matchup anyway lol, so you might as well aim to reduce variance (and potential Tyranitar headaches) via sheer power and cross the miss bridge when you get to it.
Hail is worse and also less bad in the sense that there's hardly a Pokemon that hates permahail more than Gliscor does, but at the same time this is also mostly a Chansey matchup and the Abomasnow lines in particular are hardly affected. More subtle workings actually led directly to my 652 streak's loss against (Ice) Worker Valéry, who after leading with Abomasnow-3 that Chansey defeats without any major hiccups sends out Glaceon. For reference:
and if you read the team's playstyle notes properly so far you'll notice Helping Hand and Rest/Barrier on sets 1 and 2 making them +6 Cloyster setup bait, while the other two sets can get stalled out of Blizzard and are beaten by Gliscor after, to the point that Glaceon actually is a lead I'm outright happy to see on Ice Workers. This time, an early Quick Claw proc reveals set 1, but with Abomasnow's permahail in place, Ice Shard / Mirror Coat's infinite PP, and the number of Soft-Boileds I already needed to take down Abomasnow, I'm actually not gonna have enough Soft-Boiled PP here to stall Glaceon all the way down to Helping Hand (and if I'm wrong and I actually do it's gonna be so drained that things backfire in other ways if anything happens to Cloyster via e.g. Walrein or Dewgong misses). So, I end up setting up Cloyster on Ice Shard instead, which still gets me to +6 except without my Sash this time. Out comes Froslass, Snow Cloak procs, and it takes me out with Hex, confirming:
which is a top 2 threat to this team on account of the obviously atrocious Gliscor / Chansey matchup and forces a turn 1 Rock Blast on "any" Ice Worker Froslass lead in general. I've beaten it before with Cloyster out of the picture as well, since Subway's Taunt AI is wonky enough that I get room to squeeze in a Toxic most of the time, but today is no such day, and the one turn it does give me space is wasted to a full para. On the hail front, the big takeaway is that, even though Abomasnow itself was no major threat here, the battle would have been trivial without gen 5 hail; even with Cloyster's immunity it still cost me its Sash indirectly which on account of Ice Shard did not matter against Froslass but might have elsewhere, and of course this also would have been a win without Snow Cloak in play. Oh well.
This is where I would normally add a threatlist, but for the most part they're already covered in the examples above (yay?) For a quick recap, probably incomplete but w/e:
333 Gallade-1 Hasty Expert Belt Shadow Sneak Brick Break Psycho Cut Swords Dance Atk/Spe
Typical case of Swords Dance user therefore cannot be stalled where priority also negates Cloyster's Speed advantage if it takes too much damage during setup. If Cloyster takes a super effective hit on the Smash turn, Shadow Sneak + Swords Dance + Psycho Cut crit + Brick Break is an instant countersweep that's always lurking around the corner, and even stalling Psycho Cut doesn't help a lot when you get to deal with +6 Brick Break instead and the only thing you get out of it is a lowered crit rate at the cost of 22 Sub/Protect PP.
290 Escavalier-1 Brave Liechi Berry Megahorn Quick Guard Swords Dance Reversal HP/Atk
465 Escavalier-2 Naughty Quick Claw Pursuit Counter X-Scissor Swords Dance HP/Atk
640 Escavalier-3 Brave Life Orb Megahorn Iron Defense Poison Jab Iron Head HP/Atk
815 Escavalier-4 Adamant Custap Berry Megahorn Iron Head Swagger Reversal HP/Atk
Mostly set 2 tbh; set 1 likes Quick Guard so much that it gives you enough room to squeeze in Earthquakes quickly, set 3 can be chipped down via Life Orb and Earthquakes especially if you Growl it first, and set 4 is mostly the same thing as set 1 except with Swagger rather than Quick Guard plus inability to boost power. Set 2 is just full-on harassment though and whoever thought tossing Quick Claw + Swords Dance on a set that very much exists outside of early battles as well was a fair idea needs to reconsider their priorities building these things, and the fact that X-Scissor is not really the most powerful move ever doesn't matter a whole lot either on something with this level of bulk that still has full Attack investment. At least it falls to +6 Surf, and I've also beaten it before with Earthquake battering, but Quick Claw bs makes it perpetually unreliable and every battle not facing this is a good one. Escavalier in particular is also a big reason why Bikers are probably my least favourite Trainers to see; with their super-powerful and ambiguous rosters the other sets can make for indirect headaches as well if they stop Gliscor from successfully maintaining a Sub.
377 Tyranitar-1 Impish Iron Ball Rock Slide Stealth Rock Thunder Wave Fling HP/SpD
552 Tyranitar-2 Hasty King's Rock Rock Slide Crunch Ice Beam Dragon Dance Atk/Spe
727 Tyranitar-3 Jolly Chople Berry Stone Edge Crunch Earthquake Dragon Dance Atk/Spe
902 Tyranitar-4 Brave Focus Sash Rock Slide Earthquake Superpower Dragon Tail HP/Atk
Discussed at length in the sand section; sets 2 and 3 will run away with the game if given a free Dragon Dance boost, forcing a turn 1 Shell Smash + Icicle Spear that is a de facto Cloyster sack against sets 1 and 4 that Gliscor has to clean up after, while set 3 may also choose to attack Cloyster directly and OHKO it with help from sand chip. Thanks to the turn 1 Smash they only rarely cause an instant potential loss, but if this thing leads I'm always in an instantly compromised position, even if it's just from sand taking out Focus Sash as set 2 or 3 hits Dragon Dance turn 1.
738 Feraligatr-4 Adamant Liechi Berry Dragon Dance Waterfall Crunch Substitute Atk/Spe
By far the worst Pokemon that can come out on Gliscor with a Sub because I can't Toxic it, and Chansey hates it as well here when I can't Growl stall it through Substitute yet. On these runs minus one time I have only seen it in the lead position (or I was at +6 and it would have folded instantly), where it gets 2HKOed by +2 Icicle Spear and which makes some sense I guess with its comparative rarity compared to gen 6; one time it came out on Gliscor as a third mon where I could just brute force my way through it thanks to no longer having to care about my positioning for any followup Pokemon. If it comes out second on not-Cloyster I'd probably just have to play it by ear, and even in the lead position you're actually hoping you /don't/ get any Icicle Spear crits to avoid activating Liechi or Torrent, just for a case in point of how sick this thing is.
761 Hariyama-4 Careful Sitrus Berry Belly Drum Brick Break Ice Punch Bullet Punch Def/SpD
Physical booster + priority etc, thankfully with a fantasy EV spread, but also with potential Thick Fat to laugh at Icicle Spear and Ice Punch to annoy Gliscor. In the lead there is not really anything better to do than just go for +2 Icicle Spear, which is actually a KO if it click Belly Drum right away and isn't Thick Fat, and even if it is then Belly Drum + +2 Icicle Spear - Sitrus Berry is enough to get it into Earthquake range okay. Always instantly compromised position etc though, and Thick Fat variants get extra hate for actually being hard counters to +6 Cloyster no matter what.
429 Froslass-2 Lonely Ice Gem Ice Shard Thunder Wave Hex Taunt Atk/Spe
Taunt + Ghost typing + STAB Ice coverage even if weak is a fever dream for Gliscor + Chansey, and it can and will also seriously incapacitate Cloyster. Beatable via instant Rock Blast, folds to +2 Icicle Spear with prior setup if Cloyster was knocked down to Sash, thankfully can leave room for Toxic sometimes, second worst threat to the team overall though and was what ended my run.
One is still omitted from this, because it deserves a significant amount of discussion on its own.
575 Medicham-3 Jolly Expert Belt Hi Jump Kick Zen Headbutt Ice Punch Bullet Punch Atk/Spe
So, this thing. Only a single Trainer can run it in the Maison after battle 40, to the point that I honestly forgot it existed until it just pretty much swept me entirely on a neutral board state after I'd always expected my eventual loss to be to an infuriating and unpredictable cocktail of hax. The loss in question was to a potential misplay, since I clicked Shell Smash on it while forgetting about Bullet Punch though going for the straight Icicle Spear would at least have given me a coinflip OHKO roll, but Bullet Punch is exactly what makes this set ridiculous anyways. Looking into it closer, it obviously has Medicham STAB moves backed by Medicham's ridiculous power, where Ice Punch counters Gliscor; and while normally Focus Sash is actually good against things like this by giving you essentially a chance to 2HKO which is pretty much always enough even with neutral hits against something this frail, Bullet Punch takes that option off the table. After that yea you're facing a medium Speed turbo powerful wallbreaker with some pretty colourful coverage which indeed is the kind of thing that tends to run right through a bulky team, more at 11 I suppose. There is no sugarcoating it: if Cloyster's Sash is broken and this thing comes out against Chansey, Gliscor without a Sub, unboosted Cloyster, or boosted Cloyster in Bullet Punch range, you will lose barring a cascade of hail Mary early HJK misses during a switch-stall. Even if Cloyster's Sash is intact, i.e. if it shows up in the lead position or after Cloyster insta-one-shots a lead where that's the best option, unboosted Icicle Spear is a 50% roll, or 60%-ish with crits taken into account, and if you start playing this team you're agreeing you might just have to flip that coin at some point and there's nothing you can do.
Now the good news is that, while it's considerably more common in Subway than in Maison, it's still rare enough that you can conceivably go hundreds of battles without seeing it at all i.e. this thing is not at all a reason to not bother with a run period especially if you're not taking it super seriously, and even if it does show up as a backup then odds mitigation is still a thing. In practice this means that, on any Trainer that might run Medicham-3, if at all possible you follow a line of play that ends with either a boosted Cloyster not in Bullet Punch range or a Gliscor behind a Sub, with the latter being more reasonable to attain of course. For a practical example, if you're facing a lead like Samurott-3 (Waterfall / X-Scissor / Aerial Ace / Aqua Jet @ Custap), you don't just go to Chansey and Toxic it, but instead you use Growl and Soft-Boiled to PP stall Waterfall and give Gliscor a clean switch plus the ability for its Subs to avoid even a 2HKO from non-crit Aqua Jet, which gives it great odds to defeat it with an intact Sub and have the safety net for a followup Medicham-3. Now, what actually comes out is Lanturn-3 (Surf / Ice Beam / Discharge / Thunder Wave), which we're in a great position to take on now, but Ice Beam's higher effective Base Power compared to Ice Punch means there might still be a Medicham-3 lurking in the wings after. So, instead of taking the tempting option and using the Sub to 2HKO Lanturn with Earthquake (though rolling the dice for the crit OHKO is still allowed!), what we actually do is yes we switch Chansey back in and once again keep spamming Growl until it's got only Electric moves left so we can safely maintain the Sub here as well. Yes it sounds absurd, and it probably is, but if Medicham3 does come out last then you're really kicking yourself for not doing this while you could have. I don't have a full list handy right now, but in general this is extremely doable versus a ton of set 3 enemies, and it might not be hyperbole to say that I could count on two hands the number of set 3 enemies (that are in the same set as Medicham) that I can't avoid KOing with Chansey or 1 HP Cloyster on lead.
Here's the real kicker though: absurd or not, in keeping with the setup priority bracket from earlier, this is an actively superior line of play over KOing enemy leads with Chansey's Toxic even without Medicham's existence. The extra time taken stalling is not a downside at all; physical time is of course mostly irrelevant, and in terms of turns spent, I mean we gave Chansey those infinite Growl PP for a reason, is there anything wrong with actually using them? Indeed, it also has ended up extending to non-set 3 Trainers, meaning I e.g. PP stall lead Froslass from Psychics, since while they're easy to take down with Chansey's Toxic as well I'd much rather have Gliscor out if they decide to send in Medicham4 next. The only thing worth mentioning is of course hax odds from facetanking all of those moves, which is why e.g. I do consider it a bit too cavalier to do it with offensively invested Ice Beam users and still go for Toxic into the likes of Porygon-Z (I did just give the Lanturn-3 example lol oops but that one doesn't count when it'll use Thunder Wave to make Chansey immune to freeze right away, also there is Blizzard but 5 PP + terrible accuracy makes me feel more safe there) and why I also don't wanna do it against Flamethrower users with a ton of PP since a burn proc there can and will make the needed Soft-Boiled PP actually explode, but you get the idea. And of course potential Medicham-3 presence is another factor to consider in decisionmaking even still.
Slightly breaking the flow of this post for a bit, but since it's important to understand the AI properly and I've been paying attention to a lot of that along the way as well, I wanna list some things I've observed here that differ from the Maison AI, which of course is where I'm mostly coming from.
- Substitute is an obvious one that everyone knows about but I still need to address quick. We all know that the AI in this generation doesn't understand Substitute yet and will keep using status moves into it, which is something that people can and do make use of to get extra boosts on e.g. lead SubDD Dragons. For the most part, this has actually made things more annoying for me lol since I'm using Gliscor therefore using my Subs to stall out PP not grab infinite Dragon Dance boosts and all it does is make me waste more valuable PP on status moves that normally I'd just switch-stall once the damaging moves are gone, in some cases even forcing me to be content with just winning with Gliscor where in Maison a +6 Cloyster would have been attainable; sometimes though it has also worked as a black hole to absorb enemy Leech Seed where switch-stalling e.g. Poison Heal Breloom4 and having to Soft-Boiled on potential Focus Punch would have been worse, so shrug. At least I don't remember having any lines like with Marathon where I also use Substitute to force the AI into a weak attacking move on a Gyarados rather than Leech Seed or Toxic and set up another Gyarados Sub after, since those are obv impossible in this generation as well. I suppose weak Sub AI helps sometimes, but overall it's a wash to me and I would not mind having the smart AI, since you "should" be able to figure out playing around that one anyways.
- Encore and Taunt are different; Encore's priority is even higher than in the Maison, with the AI even using it on slower enemies turn 1, which like I think I wrote earlier allows me to Shell Smash on lead Infernape and also comes in handy versus Dewgong-2, which otherwise would be Chansey food but can actually be annoying there. Taunt AI is also weaker; while it's pretty much a guaranteed click if the enemy doesn't have super effective moves in the Maison and still common if it does, it's rarer here to the point that I can confidently enough click Shell Smash on lead Virizion and even make it out of the Toxicroak lead matchup without Gliscor being Taunted more often than not. Does take some instinctual Protect clicks, but at least it seems to rarely use it on back-to-back turns.
- Trick has absurdly high priority in this generation, to the point that even Manectric and Alakazam will use it pretty reliably against Cloyster, and Alakazam in particular just forces a turn 1 Shell Smash and getting through the rest of the battle with a gimped Cloyster. Manectric does the same thing, but you can also go for Shell Smash and utilise Gliscor's re-found status as a good counter (unless Overheat crit, which at least does not OHKO...) once Cloyster has taken the hit on eating the Choice Scarf. Latias-3 is another one, but unlike Alakazam it can't break Chansey, meaning it's actually reasonable to map things out so that it gives Cloyster Sash back then Struggles to death, and all the other ones (Toxic Orb users that are hard countered by Gliscor, Flame Orb Lopunny that annoys Chansey) work the same way they did in the Maison.
- Dragon Dance in combination with Growl deserves a special mention; back in 2015 I researched the interaction between stat boosts and stat drops in the Maison, since it turned out that e.g. Curse and Bulk Up users would just stop after boosting six times even if their Attack kept dropping further, which is a behaviour that persisted into the Tree and apparently also already existed in the Subway and of course makes outstalling them with Intimidate or Growl a lot easier. Dragon Dance was an exception to this behaviour in gen 6, but over here it's not, and yes even Dragon Dance users will just stop after 6, where I have a video somewhere that I may upload later if my net doesn't get dumb about it. It's a bit harder to make actual use of in practical situations with most of them having heavy Attack investment and the Speed boosts forcing extra respect for crit odds, but it's a funny thing and also reframes the Maison conundrum from "what makes Curse and Bulk Up special or glitched" to "why was Dragon Dance singled out to have this behaviour fixed while the others were left alone". Yea!!
- Toxic has broken AI sometimes, not sure how else to put it, but stalling out e.g. Vileplume3 will actually overboost with Double Team before starting to really dip into its Toxic pool, then treat it as roughly equal priority with Ingrain even if it already has the latter active and sometimes even in the face of a healthy Chansey. Not much to make of this other than a thing to be aware of especially when it comes to counting PP, and sometimes it may cheat you out of a Cloyster setup and leave you with a Subbed Gliscor instead.
- Predictability is a very big one unfortunately to be aware of going into this. Barring priority revenge kills, the AI here seems pretty indifferent on which move to click if it has multiple KOs, meaning it's generally a bad idea to switch Gliscor into predicted Thunderbolts from lead special attackers and that preserving a 1HP Cloyster is not at all worth it when that Regice might as well happily click Ice Beam on the Gliscor switch. It extends to regular wallbreaking moves as well, where the Maison AI heavily works off having a singular "preferred" move out of its main 4 but the Subway does this a lot less; Magnezone4 is a big one that comes to mind, where I can normally conserve a lot of PP by switching a Gliscor partner out of predicted Thunderbolts, but over here I just might end up switching Gliscor into extra Flash Cannons, not to mention I can't keep Chansey in to Soft-Boiled either when Magnezone might as well click Volt Switch. This change in behaviour is also why NoCheese's Durant team was less forced to run Garchomp when he ported it to the Maison and probably the only buff Durant teams actually got in the generation switch. There is still some logic to it e.g. prioritisation of type effectiveness when no KOs are read, but yea overall I've had to force myself to play this more like BDSP Doubles, where I focus more on heavy momentum control than fully reading the AI like a book.
And a few replays, we're limiting it to 3 for character and net mercy reasons.
#300: vs. Pokemon Ranger Paula
Lead Medicham3 rears its head, of course at an extremely funny moment when I'd already accepted that this was gonna be my final attempt before I'd write it up. I considered doing a next level switch-stall between Cloyster and Gliscor to get rid of Ice Punch PP, but that won't work here anyways with unpredictable AI and Gliscor getting in Zen Headbutt range at some point even without HJK crit, so going for the Spear roll had to be it and I got it. Worth preserving for obvious reasons alone, but evidence that yes I did see this one and yes I did make it past it never hurts ig...
#584: vs. Hiker Kemuel
An example of the way this team would be expected to lose even without Medicham3 or Froslass2 or Gallade1 showing up, and an example of how any loss other than to those two is always gonna be next-level infuriating. Tl;dr is that Archeops is a lead where Smash + Spear is fine, then an unknown Carracosta set comes up which is Costa4 picking off Cloyster with Aqua Jet which is also "fine" especially since I don't have good switch-ins to "any" Carracosta. Now the go-to plan against Carracosta4 is to stall out Waterfall first, then go to Chansey to Growl it once to stop its moves from breaking Gliscor's Subs and win with Sub active, but that kind of goes down the drain if it uses Rock Slide on the switch then gets back-to-back flinches after to put me in range for a fourth, and suddenly I have to take on an unknown lastmon with a 60%-ish heavily depleted Gliscor and an 84 HP Chansey. Something more threatening than Aggron1 could have been yikes.
#653: vs. Worker Valéry
The ultimate loss, which I'd already gone into in the hail writeup. The tl;dr is Chansey defeats a lead Abomasnow, then stalls Blizzard on a followup Glaceon1 where constant chip damage from hail gradually draining Soft-Boiled PP too much forces me to set up Cloyster on Ice Shard rather than Helping Hand and lose its Sash in the process, then a Snow Cloak proc and for once actually smart Taunt AI usage on Froslass2, the second biggest threat after Medicham3, seals the deal. I'll never like losing but I will say that the blow always gets softened a lot when it is to a major threat without involving misplays; similarly I was just sitting on the sofa laughing when Medicham showed up in battle 300, and if that would be it then that would be it.
That was my serious Subway debut, which I never expected would actually happen tbh but fate works in mysterious ways sometimes. This run did not at all come easy though and has been in the works on and off since my Maison loss. The first post-Ingo run ended at 79 wins, in a battle that felt unlucky and I could shrug off because it was early but also was devoid of real hax; it was versus a Psychic where Chansey ended up KOing a lead Gardevoir or whatever idr well, then Medicham comes in which actually does wreck things in this position, I sack Chansey to take it out with +2 Cloyster because "surely there's not a lot around that wins in this position other than like Cloyster or Starmie dodging Rock Blast". For starters, there is Jynx... which uses Fake Out to finish off Cloyster and does not miss Blizzard into Gliscor. Anyways, I try again, get Froslass2ed and Medicham3ed before making it to Ingo again, which goes well but early-ish in the next set there is a battle that has Chansey KO the second Pokemon, idr which, and Garchomp4 shows up last and clicks SD on a Toxic miss. The second Toxic hits as Garchomp clicks +2 Earthquake, so now that I just need to stall out five more turns I go to Gliscor on the predicted followup Earthquake which ends up being a +2 Dragon Claw crit OHKO instead, after which the planned Cloyster revenge kill also gets foiled by a Rock Slide flinch (can you believe giving this thing Stone Edge in gen 6 was actually a nerf lmao), and I decide that I'm just really not having a good time with this right now. Slightly sounding like a spoiled brat here I am sorry, but I hope it's understandable that even with the Subway obviously being more difficult than the Maison for a few reasons (more on that in a sec) I couldn't help but trust a 787-1 Maison team could at least get me to Lansat on cue. Not have a 79 PB be an actual wall. The losses being to early sets didn't help either, since I have never bought into the idea of those being irrelevant crapshoots and do consider getting owned by them a skill issue. Unless you're running a specific anti-facility counterteam crippler setup, it's not like they're fundamentally different puzzles to solve than the later sets anyway.
Now, what do those losses have in common? Skill issues.... I will not deny that Jynx was a pretty nasty roll of the dice to see as a third Pokemon, but surely if my brain is properly functioning at all I should be able to figure out that Chansey is far higher value against the typical Psychic roster (and that Gliscor is the only one that at least has a shot at switching into Medicham and living to tell the tale), and that's not even getting into the fact that Gardevoir can be stalled down to Struggle to win with a Gliscor Sub quite easily. And yes it would be be pure self-bashing to claim that the luck against Garchomp was anything better than atrocious, but with a line of Chansey sack -> Gliscor Protect -> (Sash) Cloyster switch -> Cloyster sack -> Gliscor Protect I had a hax-free path to those five turns right there. I (also) blame brainrot from just spamming Growl in the Maison for 787 battles without being challenged close to as much as here ngl, which I honestly think brought down my skill level across the board for a while. I returned to this after hitting 1k in BDSP Doubles, when things went a lot better with the aforementioned 268 run into the 120 loss against the Whiscash crit, a barely pre-Lansat one right after, and finally the current dream run.
Going into this run, I knew the team would probably be functional, but that increased Medicham3 presence and old crits would be potential problems. I did also have some self-imposed pressure to deal with from pretty much openly announcing that I would be giving this a shot in the Maison post, and of course having an actually okay score to go with it would be nice even if I was gonna just make it a "okay this is how this team handles the Subway" post. Going into this my optimistic goal was 400+ which seemed to be the ballpark for a genuinely really good Subway run, but I also knew I might have to be content with Starf if things were even more hostile here than I'd expected, and the early beatdowns that I kept getting made me question things even further and I might have shelved things outright if not for the obvious underperformance-even-with-this-level-of-bad-luck vibes. I was actually gonna just do a writeup for the 268 run if this one had failed yet again because that was still a pretty okay score in the end and things were getting to me a bit ngl where having a planned writeup hanging over my head was not helping at all, so to say that 652 is beyond my wildest dreams is quite the understatement of the year.
It's actually quite the first world problem lol because with Meuhforever's Menceglischan and especially Peterko's Cloyster team as the top 2 non-crippler teams on the leaderboard some similar strategies are already documented here, and I was actually gonna phrase this section as "Mari takes the two best non-crippler teams and makes them worse" until I overshot my score into undermining my point there. Since I do think there is still value in sharing my thoughts on this though: while control-focused play is obvious facility singles play's bread and butter in general, there is such a thing as playing too reactively, which this team already struggled a bit with in the Maison sometimes and is obviously made way worse by Subway's increased set ambiguity (read: planning middle grounds against potential heavy offensive threats) and, indeed, old crits, which can easily make for a fatal momentum loss if you can't claw back from them when you might have been able to with just a x1,5 multiplier. For all its absurd strength neutralising enemies this team's offensive presence really is pretty garbage if it needs to be called upon without prior setup and the lack of speed doesn't help either (see the shoutout I gave to Aegislash's Shadow Sneak in particular in a similar section in the Maison post iirc). The other two teams do a way better job there, for more reasons than being able to just blast Medicham3 off the screen with their Dragons lol, and that's a thing I'll certainly keep in mind if I ever return here with something else. Having properly played both Tree and Subway now with ports of Maison teams of mine, I do think I like Subway better at least; while old crits mean it gets pretty punishing on the field, the Tree is pretty punishing in the builder instead with the Mega suffocation I've already said way too much about elsewhere, and punishing on the field at least means I get to play at all. The balance between rosters with and without set ambiguity is actually really nice as well, and with current gen mechanics this could actually have been my favourite facility.
Now that I've had a day or two to think between the loss and writing this up, I do think this score makes a bit more sense than I thought it did at first, with how super hard it lashes out with the context of my earlier losses; "luck" has certainly been better on this run anyways I suppose, but I think I'm also genuinely playing way better than when I first picked it up or indeed when I was doing the Maison run, as hopefully seen from the play optimisations mentioned in this post and not mentioned in this post. As always, my goal (other than Fun) has been to squeeze out a team's potential, and if I was not doing that properly at first but have gotten better at that since, then yea such an exponential increase can happen ig. As far as this team's adventures in Subway go though, unless I somehow suddenly run into a massive BP shortage before I find any new teams to play with, this is it; I am incredibly content with this score, and if I do get the urge to play it again, then it has more to win in the Maison than in here.
It's also been a really long year for me in facilities in general lol, where at the very least this is a great way of rounding out my goal of also branching out into non-Maison play and proving that I can hold my own there as well. There are still more teams and modes to try out later, but with how long a year it's been and the BDSP Doubles streak that has so far refused to die still being out there as well, I should really take advantage of not having any teams on my immediate todo right now, healthy option and stuff.
mari Christmas to those who celebrate and happy holidays!!
Meuhforever congrats to this incredible achievement!
It seems that Eject Button may be an overlooked item. Cool to see new stuff even after all these years. At least I am not aware of much use of it in the facilities. And then Perish Song - just wow!
Atm I am pondering on other exploits of Eject Button and I am looking at Hitmontop. Instead of just going down to a consecutive hit, it may come again from the backrow with new Intimidate and Fake Out, which now at theorymoning almost feels like carrying a 5th team member. Well, lets see how it goes...
Lumari congrats to you, too, for your massive streak!
JetSawk (291 wins)
Scrafty Triangle (636)
Double Genie Quadrangle (336)
![a7cbptE.jpeg]](https://i.imgur.com/a7cbptE.jpeg])
