Nobody is complaining specifically about the result. The complaint is about the council using a 60% unban threshold rather than the standard 50%+1, not the result of the test specifically.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
Why is it bad if it's worked for many years in the past and continues to work now, aside from a few controversial suspects? It can "fail to get things done", but that's the community's decision (and not fault of policy).
The first batch of posts discussing the results are something along the lines of "Deo-Speed is mid af how is it staying banned". Even posts in support of the ban recognize that it's a mid mon.
And it makes sense that the reason people would complain about the higher ban threshold is because Deo-Speed is not too good to be banned. If people thought it deserved a ban no one would care about the higher threshold to free it imo.
I don't have a strong opinion about the ban thresholds either way, though if it differed from standard practice it would be nice to have notice of it. I suppose lower thresholds for change are nice so the format is less likely to get stale.
Look Ma! A quote of mine has been used to back up a point!
More seriously tho I do agree with how the Deo-S suspect was handled poorly. But I get why the 60% was used and understand where the counsel was coming from. This still doesn’t change how I don’t like a 60% majority. While I personally do feel like 50% + 1 isn’t great (I would prefer 55%). It’s definitely an improvement compared to 60%. One thing I don’t understand is not reversing the vote. A widely unpopular decision was made for the percent to vote. Then after further consideration most of the community has agreed upon a new standard. I get the point that going into this suspect the idea that there would be a 60% ban was set and how changing it would be rude to ban voters. But (from what I’ve heard/gathered) the counsel was unaware of 50% + 1 being the standard policy for smogon. Even if this doesn’t apply to Natdex, the smogon standard has been proven to work and be expected, and should take precedence over the standard set by the previous Roaring Moon suspect. I’d like to apologize in advance for probably messing up some information in this. I’m writing this while very tired and would appreciate it if someone were to call me out on being straight up wrong if I am so I can edit this!
Last edited:
Now that Deo-S is done, is there any other mons that we want to either suspect test or unban. Out of all the mons in NDOU, I want Pult to be gone. Yes, there are some counters but not when it comes to Z moves but that's just me. This is my list of mons that should unban or just maybe at least. Not all is 100 percent though.
Palafin should be unban, no tera means it shouldn't be that strong plus we have more mons that walls this in my eyes.
Espathra is a maybe, Yes it's weak to dark but it could just sub and run low kick which can 3ko Gambit actually which is interesting.
Bax is an interesting. Will be cool to see it in Ou even though it's still a scary mon so maybe.
Annihilape should be unban. Yes Rage Fist is strong but without tera and a lot of toxic wisp user and faster mons. I feel like it will be balance.
Mega Lucario: I know this is controversary but I will like to Mega Lucario be tested again to see if it's as good as it is or still problematic. Maybe problematic but still will like to see if it should stay being banned or not. Maybe just like Deo-S, it can be tested
That's all the mons that I personally think it should be unbanned. Other mons not here are a little too problematic.
Palafin should be unban, no tera means it shouldn't be that strong plus we have more mons that walls this in my eyes.
Espathra is a maybe, Yes it's weak to dark but it could just sub and run low kick which can 3ko Gambit actually which is interesting.
Bax is an interesting. Will be cool to see it in Ou even though it's still a scary mon so maybe.
Annihilape should be unban. Yes Rage Fist is strong but without tera and a lot of toxic wisp user and faster mons. I feel like it will be balance.
Mega Lucario: I know this is controversary but I will like to Mega Lucario be tested again to see if it's as good as it is or still problematic. Maybe problematic but still will like to see if it should stay being banned or not. Maybe just like Deo-S, it can be tested
That's all the mons that I personally think it should be unbanned. Other mons not here are a little too problematic.
I’m personally in the middle on a pult ban. While it’s very enjoyable to use, with out a pursuit mon on your team it’s a nightmare. I don’t love the requirement of a pursuit mon to reliably beat it, but mons like Mega T-Tar and Gambit are good in other ways,besides pursuitz Meaning their only job isn’t as a pult check and can contribute against teams without a pult.
I’m my opinion having a Palafin is like having two (very good) megas. It’s a great wall breaker and set up mon. Also having to switch out is a very small price to pay. I’ve got to respectfully disagree here. Though I’m not 100% against a suspect as it does have a chance to be fine.
Espathra is probably fine with gambit running around. I’m just guessing here and not calcing but a non boosted sucker punch probably ko’s. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
It probably shouldn’t be unbanned. It’s just too strong of a set up sweeper. Especially with vail and snow from Alolan Ninetails.
Maybe. I could see it working, but I could also see it being a nightmare to fight, and tearing through bulkier teams.
No way. This thing is a monster. Adaptability on it just makes it way too powerful. Along with tools like meteor mash, bullet punch, close combat, e-speed, swords dance, nasty plot, aura sphere, and vaccum wave. All of these contribute to a monster of a special or physical setup sweeper/wall breaker
Personally I, along with many others, want a Roaring Moon suspect as it seems pretty tame without tera and has quite a few prevalent checks.
It greatly limits teambuilding options, hell no. Stored power basically prevents unaware Pokémon from walling it. Actually, maybe, without Tera espathra is a maybe/likely a ban, like 80-20 for ban to unban likelihood I’ll say. However the odds for ban are way too high for a unban suspect to happen. Espathra is basically PsySpam but in just one single mon, it’s the pressure put on you for not having a dark type, HO will probably be overpowered asf with it.
I have used the words “probably” and “likely”, so really there might be a chance it might not be broken and I can somewhat see it happening, but personally I’ll say it should stay banned.
I’m not trying to change your opinions, just sharing my own as espathra is somewhat of a maybe.
Always feel fee to disagree and share your own opinions! People disagree with each other and as long as nothing harmful comes from it it’s okay!
But yeah I do see your point on how it could be limiting. Being able to run a z move really makes it more annoying and means it can pick some check to ignore. However it is very weak to priority especially if it isn’t running protect. Some mons like gambit, spdef mega scizor, terapagos, iron crown and maybe even lele all feel like solid checks. I definitely see your point tho on how it really limits its checks. Almost all of the mons I listed would get destroyed by a boosted Fightium Z. And like you said unaware isn’t an option because of stored power. I do still feel like it’s probably worth a suspect but I can definitely see how it could be broken and understand how people may not see it as worth one.
Edit: My bad! Espathra doesn’t get any special fighting coverage! It’s definitely fine to be in the tier, it’s just does it add anything worth while.
Last edited:
Any team with a steel or dark type ensures Espathra couldn’t easily sweep at all. All of Ghold/Gambit/Melm hard stop it from sweeping without it being able to Tera, while Ting-Lu and Mega Tyranitar are also massive problems for the bird (even +1 dazzling gleam does peanuts). Hell Mega Scizor also is a good stop and even somewhat frailer darks can take a +1 gleam and damage it immensely if not KO it outright while generally bulky Pokémon like Spdef Moltres can phase it out, and its absurd hazard vulnerability, lack of defensive utility and extremely weak nature before boosting means it struggles to get set up chances. Itd need a lot of support to even sweep semi often.
Espathra doesn’t get special fighting coverage without Tera. So Z is out.
All this said, I understand the hesitance from people who don’t want to free it simply due to it being a match up fish that contributes nothing to the tier at all, so I won’t really miss sleep over it being locked up.
On that note, I’m tossing my hat into the ring of wanting to see Roaring Moon suspected next. It seems like it may be the next most palatable Mon immediately anyways, and I think it could offer some really unique tools to team builders (namely a ZardY check that doesn’t explode vs Kingambit and even exploits Y’s sun to make progress itself through proto boosted attacks). It’d be cool to see stuff like scarf and band and how they function too in a Tera free meta game now.
Palafin and Espathras are the only maybe's I see here, everything else shouldn't step foot into the tier for a WHILE.
Bax's bulk combined with its bonkers atk and unwallable coverage make it insanely hard to deal with, allowing it to tear through teams with ease.
Annihilape's bulk (why tf is gen 9 the gen of wallbreakers with great bulk, we have ghold, pala, and ape with far too much above average bulk) and the best stab in the entire game and a move that gets boosted to insane levels makes the mon both impossible to switch into and hard to revenge.
M-Lucario shouldnt see the light of day, sd with all the coverage it needs and adapt just makes it too much.
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape in Psychic Terrain: 296-350 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
...
Really? Wow, I thought it got focus blast lol
Yeah it’s definitely fine in the tier, it’s like rain HO, it ensures ur team is actually good or at least good at dealing with threats with common checks.
I’m willing to say it drops to UU, but that may sound like a serious stretch.
Guys im Just gonna tell y'a Lucario 2HKOs everything that resists its stabs and since it has both SD and NP it has little to nO counter. Unlike Mega Gallade, you can't Just go Torn T or Koko. SD luca will ESpeed em, and unless unleashing a Z move, they won't OHKO. So yea Mluc is a Pokemon Even I Only joke about unbanning
However, a Ubers I could see unbanned is Genesect. Forces to run Scarf due to Zardy, can't kill Zardy with scarf, has absolute 4mss,
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 166-196 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Nah no download bc Zardy's gotse 115 spdef and 78 def and EVEN THEN
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 248-292 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Like frr and let's NOT EVEN talk abt Rbolt, heat wave TornT or Heat wave Zapdos.
However, the people HATE Genesect (haters) and a suspect won't do the job. Regarding other mons, bc ofc Genesect gon suck against Sun,
KGB lives unboosted Flame, Ohko with both knock and Sucker after 1 SD, OHKO with knock with 0 SD n spikes, walled by heatran Except If Douse Drive (Slow, can be seen on Team preview, needs Good download positioning) So imo Genesect will go like mew In Unite - The Best will be Very strong, but very Balanced, and If not played perfectly you get Absolutely No results.
And I'm serious abt 4mss bc Genesect wants a lot of moves
U-turn, tbolt, Ice beam, bug buzz, hidden power Ground/techno Buster Douse, flash Cannon, energy ball, Rock Polish on special sets Only,
u-turn, Blaze Kick, Iron head, Espeed, Leech life, Even Explosion for The Blast, gunk Shot, Shift gear on Phys sets, So eh yea I could see it somewhere around A- In Viabilty but If it wants DAMAGE it would need Good Positioning+Z move.
Imo Unbans As a whole were not optimal after Tera Ban, Testing mons 1 at a time woulda been Better imo, Fmfjck that annoying shield dog
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 166-196 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Nah no download bc Zardy's gotse 115 spdef and 78 def and EVEN THEN
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 248-292 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Like frr and let's NOT EVEN talk abt Rbolt, heat wave TornT or Heat wave Zapdos.
However, the people HATE Genesect (haters) and a suspect won't do the job. Regarding other mons, bc ofc Genesect gon suck against Sun,
KGB lives unboosted Flame, Ohko with both knock and Sucker after 1 SD, OHKO with knock with 0 SD n spikes, walled by heatran Except If Douse Drive (Slow, can be seen on Team preview, needs Good download positioning) So imo Genesect will go like mew In Unite - The Best will be Very strong, but very Balanced, and If not played perfectly you get Absolutely No results.
And I'm serious abt 4mss bc Genesect wants a lot of moves
U-turn, tbolt, Ice beam, bug buzz, hidden power Ground/techno Buster Douse, flash Cannon, energy ball, Rock Polish on special sets Only,
u-turn, Blaze Kick, Iron head, Espeed, Leech life, Even Explosion for The Blast, gunk Shot, Shift gear on Phys sets, So eh yea I could see it somewhere around A- In Viabilty but If it wants DAMAGE it would need Good Positioning+Z move.
Imo Unbans As a whole were not optimal after Tera Ban, Testing mons 1 at a time woulda been Better imo, Fmfjck that annoying shield dog
i refuse to believe you typed this entire post out with a straight face and didn't feel even a little bit of shame as you pressed the post button.
choice band sect with the choice of u-turn, ihead, espeed and blaze kick would be complete cancer to play against. most defensive pokemon in the tier get 2HKOed if not OHKOed, and a majority of the outliers like alo and pex get u-turned on with the exception of the contact status ability mons (to which the counter-play is to not click u-turn on the obvious molt switch-in). espeed gives it further utility outside of being a defense stomper, allowing it to revenge kill many chipped setup sweepers.
and this mon has way more sets than just that; choice specs with u turn tbolt icebeam flame would be a quite strong alternative that can destroy almost all of its choice band checks with ease at the cost of not having espeed, and scarf (whether mixed or special) would be a very potent revenge-killer. shift gear sect would also be a powerful late-game cleaner, utilizing its download to potentially reach +2 spe +2 atk in 1 turn, which would make it very difficult to deal with especially with Z-moves.
all of this is further compounded by its elite bug/steel typing, making offensive counter-play relatively limited. sure the mon doesn't have an incredible defensive stat line, but its just enough to make revenge killing without either a choice item or a fire move most difficult.
these traits altogether would make it nothing more than a blight upon the tier, making building defensive structures frustrating and constrictive, and playing against it obnoxious with every archetype due to its sheer set variety combined with its excellent defensive typing.
if you're going to keep posting garbage on the forums, then at the very least educate yourself on the topic you're discussing before posting something wrong.
There is genuinely no way you seriously mean this. To your Zard-Y point, so it has one common check that out speeds, the rest of Genesect’s team can handle that. And you’re forgetting Genesect gets priority:
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 226-267 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Genesect being able to do so much damage and have almost perfect moves for all of its would be checks, while also having a pivot move to get away from its few checks is just too much. And it isn’t even weak to rocks thanks to being a steal bug type, which is incredible defensively. And even if it loses to sun, it’s still not useless there and that’s one, not incredibly popular, team archetype. There is absolutely no way Genesect is being suspected. This thing is a monster.
Ironically one of my first ever posts here in this forum was about Genesect could be unbanned (it was pre dlc 2 era iirc). I got roasted so hard for it lmao, I’m not even kidding.
I had way less metagame knowledge and experience back then compared to now, so I can safely call an Ubers unbannable with points on why it could be. Other than that, maybe a Kokoloko method should be done but for unbans instead? Honestly there are a lot of unbans possible with Tera ban so yeah.
i'll just post calcs and reasonings as to why i dont think genesect should be unbanned, despite me loving the crap out of that bug
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 202-238 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
given you get the correct stat boost vs pokemon like glowking, lele, and icrown, ur banded u-turn is providing too much momentum for ur team, as those previously mentioned mons must switch or fear getting crippled/even ohkod by neutral uturn. then, whatever u bring in is taking massive amounts of damage. all this combined makes genesect really hard to play against.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect U-turn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Slowking-Galar: 289-342 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(glowking is the most physically capable of the bunch and its still getting crippled)
then theres the specs set, that seemingly has 0 clear-cut defensive checks, as genesect has boltbeam in its arsenal and more
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 282-332 (93 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 260-306 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is considering u got spatk from something else, u still 2hko icrown even without)
ima end the post here, but i havent even delved into scarf or split, those sets are hella threatening themselves.
this shi free af.
Erg nO I was really serious dammit like most The calcs you get need Download, which you cannot always get In your advantage, and specs Tbolt Ice beam u-turn Flame lacks speed and needs SPA Boost to kill a lot of significant mons. Erg also I Did say The people hated Gensect So eh, +9 Haha is not what surprises me. Half The dex got Fire Coverage, and sniping it on The switch is l'argent doable, and most Fast SD ers kinda destroy it/force Speed, which doesnt always kill
However Yea Put into perspective Genesect is a monstre to build vs, Ima calm down haha
On a somewhat similar note, why shouldn’t Roaring Moon be unbanned? I can’t really think of any reasons.
It suffers from 4 move slot syndrome without tera as it wants d dance, knock off, earthquake, acrobatics, iron head and taunt, to beat all of its checks. And even then Zama, Corv, Terapagos, and Tusk are pretty reliable for beating it. And if it wasn’t running taunt, Moltres and Ferothorn become pretty reliable checks. And these checks cover most ever item varient item wise.
Idk if this so just me not thinking of any reasons or if it’s actually fine. They only thing I can think of is with booster attack d dance Moon can snowball pretty quickly. If there are any reasons I’m missing feel free to inform me.
It suffers from 4 move slot syndrome without tera as it wants d dance, knock off, earthquake, acrobatics, iron head and taunt, to beat all of its checks. And even then Zama, Corv, Terapagos, and Tusk are pretty reliable for beating it. And if it wasn’t running taunt, Moltres and Ferothorn become pretty reliable checks. And these checks cover most ever item varient item wise.
Idk if this so just me not thinking of any reasons or if it’s actually fine. They only thing I can think of is with booster attack d dance Moon can snowball pretty quickly. If there are any reasons I’m missing feel free to inform me.
I'm open to unbanning RM (as I mentioned in my other post) but I just want to point out a few things.
Tusk actually is no more a check than it was during the Tera meta (that is to say, not one) unless it runs heavy physical bulk investment, as boosted +1 Proto Acro still OHKOs even max HP Tusk with a spike up, while Zama has to ensure it hasn't used its one time Dauntless Shield beforehand. Corv does beat it mostly (but Corv isn't very good atm imo) while Moltres needs Max physical bulk and it prefers special bulk atm to handle a bunch of stuff. That said, stuff like scarf Ditto works vs non proto speed variants of RM while Ting-Lu can answer it reliably most of the time, and Landorus-T is a good soft check in a pinch.
There is the possibility that maybe it's another crazy strong sun mon to partner alongside ZardY, and maybe CB RM is too good that way but we won't know until we try.
Holy cow I didn’t know that OHKOs my bad.
Sorry I forgot it runs special. I see it more in SV Ou and not as much here so I forget the set is different.
Oh true it could be crazy with Zard-Y. Especially as a breaker on the other side of the attacking spectrum.
I still think it’s worth a test and could be fine, but it with Zard-Y could be too much.
This mon is so lovely. It does so much for offensively-oriented teams, it's crazy. Good priority. Great typing. Pivoting. CM Z sets. If you have a Raging Bolt, there's probably a way to win the game still.
I've tried several sets, HDB Pivot has to be my favorite right now because it just does so much work even with 4A. One thing I really appreciate about the mon is it also gives you a significantly better MU against Char-Y on teamstyles that generally don't have many switch-ins in general, the free Proto + clicking Draco demolishes the entire core of Char/Tusk/opp Bolt,
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raging Bolt in Sun: 156-184 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 255-301 (85.8 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 475-561 (109.4 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raging Bolt: 630-744 (161.1 - 190.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
which thus forces the other team to either pick sack or just waste Sun turns. Of course, the mon has no recovery so you can't do this forever, Scorching Sands is also a 2HKO and that forces you to predict w/ Thunderclap VS Draco, but I still think it's notable how much your own Bolt eases the matchup.
Other stuff I like:
-I appreciate how Raging Bolt is a great emergency switch into Kart. I've won games off of a half-chipped (usually hazards throughout the match) Kartana being in range of a Thunderclap, with it as my last stop.
252 SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 141-167 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-The CM set can also be used as an emegency check to most Volcarona sets in my experience, unlikely if it's 100% healthy going into the interaction best results Z:
+1 252 SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 318-375 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 238-282 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Dominates MUs that rely on Alo as its pivot alongside a bird, eats Moltres + Alo easily.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those all-timer BO mons that will just be OU for like 4 gens before getting power-crept. It can't do everything in one game, but it's almost a guarantee it will be very useful, and do at least one or two things extremely well in a game, if not be your wincon.
Tusk is very good due to the fact that it can set up rocks and use rapid spin. With other charming qualities of tusk including the checking of physical pult, it has a way to kill ghold, and basically walls any physical attacker that doesn't use grass, flying, water, or psychic type moves. Last but certainly not least, it is an amazing partner to the very good charizard-y right now, which gives tusk a boost in def when sun is active.