Yeah, thinking about it some more I was judging based off how important it is for balance, but with that logic blissey should also be S because it's essential on stall. Mixed up the basis of the VR lol mb, although I still think I stick with my other noms.
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Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1002))
- Thread starter ausma
- Start date
I disagree. You're overrating set variety's influence on a pokemon's viability, underrating Ting-lu's place on a variety of playstyles, and overlooking the proof: this stupid moose had an absurd 50% usage in W1 of SPL. For just one of many examples, look at how easily it goes 1 for 1.5/2 mons in a highlight ou match last week clean vs pais. I would not say pais' team is particularly weak to ting-lu but Lu manages to still comfortably shred darkrai and tusk. A ruination on turn 4 could've easily led to lu taking out like 200%+ health from the opponent lmao.
Ting-lu can vary between jolly lead hazard setter with taunt, red card, or both on HO teams, standard sdef fat eq/ruin/hazard/ww on BO, restalk eq/payback on balances, and even more niche sets like AV that have seen tournament success last SCL.
The bottom line is:
-Spikes are absurd and Ting-lu is the best setter.
-Special attackers are strong and Ting-lu Is the best blanket check to them.
-It finds success on every playstyle and does its job consistently well.
-Ruination is incredibly efficient at weakening a team.
I've said it before but I think ting-lu is the 2nd best mon in the meta (right behind zama) and it's not a coincidence that you can see it accurately reflected in SPL w1 usage stats. It's easy S rank material in my eyes.
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Hot take
S -> S-
I think in this current metagame, we're truly seeing the old king fall down. While there's no denying the incredible utility Kingambit brings to a team, we're seeing it falter. It's hit third overall in usage for the first time all generation in 1695 December usage.
In the most recent OLT, you see it being heavily gapped in usage in the Swiss stage, being tied for 15th most used in Swiss, while only being tied for 9th overall.
With the first two weeks of stats for SPL, we see Kingambit being tied for 9th in usage as well!
In a metagame currently plagued by Zamazenta, Ting-Lu and still plenty of Great Tusks, I think Kingambit deserves a slight drop from the best possible rank.
S -> S-I think in this current metagame, we're truly seeing the old king fall down. While there's no denying the incredible utility Kingambit brings to a team, we're seeing it falter. It's hit third overall in usage for the first time all generation in 1695 December usage.
In the most recent OLT, you see it being heavily gapped in usage in the Swiss stage, being tied for 15th most used in Swiss, while only being tied for 9th overall.
With the first two weeks of stats for SPL, we see Kingambit being tied for 9th in usage as well!
In a metagame currently plagued by Zamazenta, Ting-Lu and still plenty of Great Tusks, I think Kingambit deserves a slight drop from the best possible rank.
My current view on the metagame after a few weeks of SPL, the survey, and some laddering.
Kingambit is still S rank as always, but Ting Lu has gained on it and honestly the entire tier as a remarkable sponge and utility piece. Zamazenta remains potent even though it has a different set mix than before.
S- is always rough. I gave Gholdengo a nod over Great Tusk because it works well on some Ting Lu and Samurott-H teams while we are seeing slightly less Great Tusk than before, but both clearly belong here. You can argue for a few Pokemon to be included here or a merger with A+ even, but then I would end up with too bloated of an A+ or A with a big gap between top-end and low-end, so I went with this grouping.
A+ fills out the big metagame defining Pokemon. Most need no explanation, but Pech is a rising star that is dominant on bulky-o as a sponge, pivot, status spreader, etc. while Dragapult finds its way into A+ after being S- for me just because it feels a tad weaker than it once was. Samurott-H is at close to a high point and Dragonite remains role compression god for offensive teams.
A could feel bizarre with Darkrai and Roaring Moon not making the A+ cut, but I think that this divide is fair right now, especially with Darkrai not being the same tier as some A+ Pokemon. Lokix could be a shocking inclusion to some, but it is an elite trade forcer and pivot with some of the best offensive utility between priotity, Knock Off, U-turn, etc. Alomomola was a 50/50 between A and A-, but grouped it here to keep lists even.
A- is the last I will go into -- Iron Moth is a big loser with all of the balance teams picking up, especially with Ting Lu being everywhere. It used to be almost A+, but now drops in the opposite direction. Primarina is still underrated as swapping into it is impossible while Corviknight finds itself less of a bad glue and more of a relevant metagame piece for once. Enamorus sneaks in as a lot of offensive teams feels like they lack counterplay, but can easily be argued for B+ alongside Iron Treads depending on the day while Latios could see A- on the right day I suppose.
Not going to go through lower subranks rn, thx 658Greninja for the tiermaker
w
I’m curious what make scizor B+ for you? I’ve tried and haven’t been able to make sciz work.
My current view on the metagame after a few weeks of SPL, the survey, and some laddering.
Kingambit is still S rank as always, but Ting Lu has gained on it and honestly the entire tier as a remarkable sponge and utility piece. Zamazenta remains potent even though it has a different set mix than before.
S- is always rough. I gave Gholdengo a nod over Great Tusk because it works well on some Ting Lu and Samurott-H teams while we are seeing slightly less Great Tusk than before, but both clearly belong here. You can argue for a few Pokemon to be included here or a merger with A+ even, but then I would end up with too bloated of an A+ or A with a big gap between top-end and low-end, so I went with this grouping.
A+ fills out the big metagame defining Pokemon. Most need no explanation, but Pech is a rising star that is dominant on bulky-o as a sponge, pivot, status spreader, etc. while Dragapult finds its way into A+ after being S- for me just because it feels a tad weaker than it once was. Samurott-H is at close to a high point and Dragonite remains role compression god for offensive teams.
A could feel bizarre with Darkrai and Roaring Moon not making the A+ cut, but I think that this divide is fair right now, especially with Darkrai not being the same tier as some A+ Pokemon. Lokix could be a shocking inclusion to some, but it is an elite trade forcer and pivot with some of the best offensive utility between priotity, Knock Off, U-turn, etc. Alomomola was a 50/50 between A and A-, but grouped it here to keep lists even.
A- is the last I will go into -- Iron Moth is a big loser with all of the balance teams picking up, especially with Ting Lu being everywhere. It used to be almost A+, but now drops in the opposite direction. Primarina is still underrated as swapping into it is impossible while Corviknight finds itself less of a bad glue and more of a relevant metagame piece for once. Enamorus sneaks in as a lot of offensive teams feels like they lack counterplay, but can easily be argued for B+ alongside Iron Treads depending on the day while Latios could see A- on the right day I suppose.
Not going to go through lower subranks rn, thx 658Greninja for the tiermaker
I think SD sets are cool. You obviously only have a certain lane for it, but a Steel with non-conditional priority, an actual Fairy resistence, and neutrality to Ground can open up a lot that Kingambit cannot. Obviously Kingambit is better 80-90% of the time, but the comparison between the two is not a full overlap and there are offenses that like Scizor. It checks Valiant, Enamorus, Kyurem, Weavile, Meowscarada, and Deoxys-Speed from the jump, too, but also can flex around with Tera Blast for defensive applications and offensiv coverage. I would say it is probably below a few things in B+ (I stopped going as closely in order there) like Latios, Ursaluna, Rillaboom, etc., but it belongs there.
CB variants also work ok with heavy hazard removal as offense sucks into them, but Corv/Glisc/fat teams do shut it down.
To this point, you can split the difference on Scizor on a fat SD set of SD, BP, Knock, and U-turn and stick them onto fatter VoltTurn teams and SpikeStack.
kinda curious as to why Meowscarada is B+ for you, it still feels quite underwhelming compared to something like Weavile to me.
My current view on the metagame after a few weeks of SPL, the survey, and some laddering.
Kingambit is still S rank as always, but Ting Lu has gained on it and honestly the entire tier as a remarkable sponge and utility piece. Zamazenta remains potent even though it has a different set mix than before.
S- is always rough. I gave Gholdengo a nod over Great Tusk because it works well on some Ting Lu and Samurott-H teams while we are seeing slightly less Great Tusk than before, but both clearly belong here. You can argue for a few Pokemon to be included here or a merger with A+ even, but then I would end up with too bloated of an A+ or A with a big gap between top-end and low-end, so I went with this grouping.
A+ fills out the big metagame defining Pokemon. Most need no explanation, but Pech is a rising star that is dominant on bulky-o as a sponge, pivot, status spreader, etc. while Dragapult finds its way into A+ after being S- for me just because it feels a tad weaker than it once was. Samurott-H is at close to a high point and Dragonite remains role compression god for offensive teams.
A could feel bizarre with Darkrai and Roaring Moon not making the A+ cut, but I think that this divide is fair right now, especially with Darkrai not being the same tier as some A+ Pokemon. Lokix could be a shocking inclusion to some, but it is an elite trade forcer and pivot with some of the best offensive utility between priotity, Knock Off, U-turn, etc. Alomomola was a 50/50 between A and A-, but grouped it here to keep lists even.
A- is the last I will go into -- Iron Moth is a big loser with all of the balance teams picking up, especially with Ting Lu being everywhere. It used to be almost A+, but now drops in the opposite direction. Primarina is still underrated as swapping into it is impossible while Corviknight finds itself less of a bad glue and more of a relevant metagame piece for once. Enamorus sneaks in as a lot of offensive teams feels like they lack counterplay, but can easily be argued for B+ alongside Iron Treads depending on the day while Latios could see A- on the right day I suppose.
Not going to go through lower subranks rn, thx 658Greninja for the tiermaker
I agree that it is underwhelming and I personally struggle to use it -- if this was reflected on my own usage, it would probably be B-. However, a few good players like Lily have been able to pull off strong builds with it thanks to the diverse group of attacking and utility options it has. Knock Off, Ice coverage, pivoting or Spikes, etc. can go a long way, but I do find fitting it to be an absolute pain in the ass as it lacks defensive utility outside of the speed stat. Scarf is shaky glue that can work and Boots offers a good amount of pressure, so I think B or B+ is probably fine, but ya I will be the first to admit it can be a struggle with Meowscarada right now.
1. I thought cornerstone was making some waves in OU. Is this way overhyped?
2. I thought hoopa would be much better esp against the balances going around with stuff like ting lu, gholdengo, iron crown, etc
3. I felt enamorus choice sets are super awkward to use, what has been working for you finch?
2. I thought hoopa would be much better esp against the balances going around with stuff like ting lu, gholdengo, iron crown, etc
3. I felt enamorus choice sets are super awkward to use, what has been working for you finch?
For the cornerstone question, its a decent amount worse than wellspring overall. On the offensive side, Cornerstone is very much better than wellspring with rock ivy cudgel, but still has some issues with ghold or gambit depending on if you bring knock off or low kick. However defensively, sturdy is the only niche it has over wellspring(alongside a thunderclap resist but its more of a last resort), while wellspring has a generally better defensive profile to turn into offense. Trust me i love cornerstone, but wellspring is generally a better option unless you struggle into flying types or kyurem
Just seeing Pechaurant going from being unusable to A+ is amazing! Also, Lokix has really terrible stats, yet its such a great Pokemon!
My current view on the metagame after a few weeks of SPL, the survey, and some laddering.
Kingambit is still S rank as always, but Ting Lu has gained on it and honestly the entire tier as a remarkable sponge and utility piece. Zamazenta remains potent even though it has a different set mix than before.
S- is always rough. I gave Gholdengo a nod over Great Tusk because it works well on some Ting Lu and Samurott-H teams while we are seeing slightly less Great Tusk than before, but both clearly belong here. You can argue for a few Pokemon to be included here or a merger with A+ even, but then I would end up with too bloated of an A+ or A with a big gap between top-end and low-end, so I went with this grouping.
A+ fills out the big metagame defining Pokemon. Most need no explanation, but Pech is a rising star that is dominant on bulky-o as a sponge, pivot, status spreader, etc. while Dragapult finds its way into A+ after being S- for me just because it feels a tad weaker than it once was. Samurott-H is at close to a high point and Dragonite remains role compression god for offensive teams.
A could feel bizarre with Darkrai and Roaring Moon not making the A+ cut, but I think that this divide is fair right now, especially with Darkrai not being the same tier as some A+ Pokemon. Lokix could be a shocking inclusion to some, but it is an elite trade forcer and pivot with some of the best offensive utility between priotity, Knock Off, U-turn, etc. Alomomola was a 50/50 between A and A-, but grouped it here to keep lists even.
A- is the last I will go into -- Iron Moth is a big loser with all of the balance teams picking up, especially with Ting Lu being everywhere. It used to be almost A+, but now drops in the opposite direction. Primarina is still underrated as swapping into it is impossible while Corviknight finds itself less of a bad glue and more of a relevant metagame piece for once. Enamorus sneaks in as a lot of offensive teams feels like they lack counterplay, but can easily be argued for B+ alongside Iron Treads depending on the day while Latios could see A- on the right day I suppose.
Not going to go through lower subranks rn, thx 658Greninja for the tiermaker
hi finch, can you pls post the link to the tierlist 658Greninja made? thank you in advance
My current view on the metagame after a few weeks of SPL, the survey, and some laddering.
Kingambit is still S rank as always, but Ting Lu has gained on it and honestly the entire tier as a remarkable sponge and utility piece. Zamazenta remains potent even though it has a different set mix than before.
S- is always rough. I gave Gholdengo a nod over Great Tusk because it works well on some Ting Lu and Samurott-H teams while we are seeing slightly less Great Tusk than before, but both clearly belong here. You can argue for a few Pokemon to be included here or a merger with A+ even, but then I would end up with too bloated of an A+ or A with a big gap between top-end and low-end, so I went with this grouping.
A+ fills out the big metagame defining Pokemon. Most need no explanation, but Pech is a rising star that is dominant on bulky-o as a sponge, pivot, status spreader, etc. while Dragapult finds its way into A+ after being S- for me just because it feels a tad weaker than it once was. Samurott-H is at close to a high point and Dragonite remains role compression god for offensive teams.
A could feel bizarre with Darkrai and Roaring Moon not making the A+ cut, but I think that this divide is fair right now, especially with Darkrai not being the same tier as some A+ Pokemon. Lokix could be a shocking inclusion to some, but it is an elite trade forcer and pivot with some of the best offensive utility between priotity, Knock Off, U-turn, etc. Alomomola was a 50/50 between A and A-, but grouped it here to keep lists even.
A- is the last I will go into -- Iron Moth is a big loser with all of the balance teams picking up, especially with Ting Lu being everywhere. It used to be almost A+, but now drops in the opposite direction. Primarina is still underrated as swapping into it is impossible while Corviknight finds itself less of a bad glue and more of a relevant metagame piece for once. Enamorus sneaks in as a lot of offensive teams feels like they lack counterplay, but can easily be argued for B+ alongside Iron Treads depending on the day while Latios could see A- on the right day I suppose.
Not going to go through lower subranks rn, thx 658Greninja for the tiermaker
Why did you rank Primarina and Moltres so low? They definitely aren't in the same tier as Excadrill and Serperior
Huh, Primarina is a mistake, it is one of the lowest A Mons, but still above B, I missclicked there (this is what happens when I do stuff from mobile).
Moltres is one of the highest Bs for me. However, when I build teams, I have it way easier to put Gliscor, Corvi, Zapdos, defensive Nite or Restalk Lando as the bulky Flying type of the team. It's also totally destroyed by Rocks + Knock Off combination, despite punishing it with Flame Body.
Why is latios in A tier? it did alright in spl sure, but its pretty mid overall atm
SPL currently I dont care what is happening there (since I am not playing the tour). However I have used Modest Psyshock Tera Steel Latios a lot and its an amazing offensive check to Gliscor, Kyurem, Lando-T, most Great Tusks and several other Mons, while being hard to switch into itself. Its one flaw is not being able to hit Gambit and Gholdengo at the same time (also Corviknight, but that is not so important). In my post I havent separated A in 3 Tiers, but Latios easily reaches A- at the very least. This is the best Non Mega Latios generation since BW.
If you don't mind me asking, why is Walking Wake ranked in A, above the two Sun setters? I'm a big fan of Wake, but I don't see why it would be ranked above them. I guess it has neat usage as a knocker and pivot, but I feel like it's just not that good a set, especially compared to the Sun sets, unless I'm not using it right.
Usable out of Sun (Boots not needed, you can still run Specs) while being insanely strong in Sun. Also, like many Proto users (funnily enough not Acro Moon), if its used out of Sun and you face a Sun, its pretty much an autowin. Probably would put it in B anyway if there was only 1 viable Sun setter, but there are 2 (I am in the minority that still considers Torkoal to be slighty better), so its not as limited in teammates as Rain abussers (a style that can also use Wake btw) are.
I do think people are sleeping on Agility Wake tbh. 1 free turn is all you need to click agility and start making progress thereafter, and to echo your sentiments, it's a very solid wincon into sun
I second this as matte gave me a team with agility walking woke and I say it's very good at what it does without sun :)
Honestly, at this point I'm inclined to agree that Ting-Lu should rise to S. I don't even think S- cuts it right now.
This mon is now finding its way onto every imaginable archetype, it's dominant in SPL, it's the undisputed king of passive damage, it's the best blanket check to all special attackers, and literally nothing can OHKO it without a boost so it will quite literally always get a turn to generate some value between setting a Spike, killing a ground-weak mon with EQ, phazing something out with WW, or simply shaving off 50% of something's HP for free with Ruination.
Absurdly good mon, easily top 2-3 in this tier, and I think even S- sells it too short.
This mon is now finding its way onto every imaginable archetype, it's dominant in SPL, it's the undisputed king of passive damage, it's the best blanket check to all special attackers, and literally nothing can OHKO it without a boost so it will quite literally always get a turn to generate some value between setting a Spike, killing a ground-weak mon with EQ, phazing something out with WW, or simply shaving off 50% of something's HP for free with Ruination.
Absurdly good mon, easily top 2-3 in this tier, and I think even S- sells it too short.