Unpopular opinions

Some Friday Hot Takes:

so in my continued replaying of Pokemon games, I started on the GBA games

FRLG used to be my favorite, but I couldn't get into it. After playing through almost every other game in the series and nuzlocking FRLG, I'm not terribly interested in a lot of the Pokemon. I do think that this burnout does NOT come from the Johto games

At the same time I'm replaying Ruby on cart and it's been a much more positive experience than I remember overall:
  • I like a lot of the Pokemon selection, and like playing as Pokemon that feel unique to the region (going back to playing sm Pokemon as a whole)
  • Ralts' ability is an excellent introduction to abilities, because it tells you what each Pokemon you face's ability is
  • I like the broken Pick Up. It makes replaying the games more fun because I can get more resources at my disposal than usual without breaking the game. I understand why they fixed it, and in some ways made it more useful, but it's fun to have the extra resources during a regular playthrough
  • I feel like the game does do a lot of callbacks to Gen 1 in their own way, such as starting with a rock gym, making you go through a city you'll return to later for the gym, and going through a forest
  • That said, I'm less forgiving of the battery issues. That is something they should have done without, by this point they knew it would affect the quality of future playthroughs.
  • Also, they still needed to do something about hyping up certain Pokemon like the weather Pokemon and Keckleon who were clearly ass but had potential to be interesting

I mentioned I felt this way earlier, a lot of it is vibes, as HGSS is a fairly faithful remake

Aesthetic: to me, Crystal looks sm nicer. The sprites look great, contrasted with the white background. The Vileplume sprite goes crazy particularly in the last Team Rocket fight. I also like the artwork regarding the towns and routes. HGSS looks nice, but I prefer Platinum's in terms of Gen 4, and prefer Gen 3/s artwork style as well. Gen 4's is too refined. HGSS does have bigger caves, but honestly I didn't really have any more fun exploring them, they just took longer to traverse.

Differences:
A lot of subtle differences, like how they wrote Silver, and naming the Team Rocket sprites, didn't work well for me in the remake. Making more of Kanto felt cool, but I didn't like the vibe of the game as much, so I wasn't interested in the postgame. Catching more legendaries is cool, I just didn't care for the game so it didn't have a greatly positive impact on the experience. Stuff like Viridian Forest is cool to have, but it takes like 5 minutes to go through. Also, the Rock Climb HM was beyond disappointing. I mainly got access to trade evolution items and other stuff I didn't actually need or care about at that stage in the game.

Also, fuck the Safari Zone. That place is downright miserable, and makes me feel dumb for caring about catching all the Pokemon. I'd rather play at the stupid casino because they're basically the same thing, except the casino isn't a dumbed down version of regular gameplay.

Crystal also fixed some Pokemon locations and had easier access to the evolution stones, I also didn't care for the Pokeathlon lol. HGSS still makes many bad decisions as to Pokemon availability, although I do like access to Mareep and Girafarig

Power Level:
I have another rant coming about this below, but I kinda feel like Gen 4 screwed up the power level curve. A common critique of earlier generations, is that many Pokemon have bad movesets or take too long to get good moves. Johto especially is notable for being weaker than Kanto, many of the best tms in the game are locked behind the postgame.

The thing is, in Crystal, you didn't need them. Between the elemental punches and Badge Boosts, my teams I've used in normal playthroughs will be at the right power level to go through the Elite 4 with a little bit of grinding. All the Pokemon with "bad movesets" were still able to contribute, because the moves were strong enough against the competition they faced. Power is relative.

In Gen 4, the power level has increased greatly. Yet the tools you have access to have not. The Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower are locked behind some dumb game at the Casino, alongside a few other valuable tms, which makes me want to complete the Battle Facilities in Platinum were resources are more readily available. Yes, you get access to the 70 Percent moves, but those aren't reliable and being forced to rely on them feels similarly to OHKO moves. I had to grind for awhile before the Elite 4 in HGSS because my team didn't have the tools to beat Lance and it was annoying. I can't enjoy the postgame if so many important resources are locked behind minigames.

It actually took me awhile to come around to the Physical Special split and I still don't necessarily love it. Let's talk about it:

When Pokemon introduces new mechanics like abilities, the game gets more complicated: for example, before, you could earthquake a Weezing. Now, you can no longer Earthquake a Weezing. In the case of abilities, the introduction of the mechanic was positive, because it helped differentiate Pokemon. It gave them different roles, and added fun layers to gameplay where more creative strategies and complex interactions were feasible.

The Physical Special Split did the opposite of this: it ensured almost every Pokemon would get a useable strong STAB move. Before, a strong Physical Pokemon like Gyarados would think out of the box in terms of coverage options, now Gyarados gets to click an 80 BP super strong STAB like everything else. On that note, despite several Pokemon being claimed as useless before the PSS split, such as Kingler and Sneasel, they still sucked afterwards. The only differnce was now Pokemon like Gengar and Gyarados were even better than they were. When looking at the most popular OU pokemon, the only real benefactor of the PSS was probably Dragonite.

On top of this, it felt slightly poorly balanced in Gen 4. Some Pokemon would become too strong too early, while others would not be usable due to odd irregularlies in moveset availabilities.

I'd say Gen 5 showed why the PSS was necessary: the game was better balanced around it, the supporting moves and Pokemon were buffed so that they felt more usable again (a growing focus on Doubles helped), and most importantly, it gave Pokemon different roles, that was more than just getting stronger. I do think recent generations show the downside/the end result tho: everything gets 2-4 super strong attacks without drawbacks to click, which trivializes the main game, and the AI isn't set up or equipped to handle, and it reduces the game to who can outspeed and KO first.
 
Pokemon fans that blame an entire medium for not liking a mon design are annoying as shit. I've seen people suddenly act like Geeta's design is fixed in 2D cuz of an off model frame in the anime that shrunk her eyes and it's like...y'all are genuinely stupid
Geeta has dumbass bugged eyes and hair regardless of the medium, though the games made the eyes less B E E G
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Poor posing can make a char boring, but that's not the base design 90% of cases. Boltund line looking happy and playful in 2D art doesn't hide that it's a shit design to me, it's literally a recolored dog that's a poor man's Jolteon. Same for Pawmot line being incredibly mediocre design wise

Cyndaquil "fans" are probably the biggest whiners about this, they genuinely dismiss the line being flameless in many scenarios since Gen 2 in alt media, then lie saying it never flames up in XY-SwSh even though it does when it's attacking with a fire move

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Ash's Cyndaquil literally couldn't flame properly as an ep plot, it's amazing how tunnel visioned fans are to only looking at game sprites. Even then, Dex entries note it only doing so when threatened/startled

Same for complaining about mon color, like lol. That is NOT a medium issue, they literally are trying to match 2D art. And leaks show us it was a late dev change, they're more saturated 2011-early 2012 :V

I do find it funny how the when people talk about shit Sky Battle anims (rightfully so), they ignore that amie...has actual grounded anims for those mons
tumblr_6244e33e7330bdbd289cfe4c415d44be_bbe0552e_400.gif

Including the infamous Eelektross
tumblr_n96hwgU9Fg1ttdkobo3_400.gif

Which ScaVio sadly do use for the latter...explicitly when not battling or Synchro

Regardless, not a medium issue. There are many sprites that have the "awkward boring idle pose" in FRLG, yet I'm not condemning an entire medium cuz that's stupid. Similarly, I'm not gonna go "Oh Pokemon was never meant to be 3D" when Porygon literally was made to address that, and the franchise got hooked on it for ads since 1997. Sugimori barely fucks perspective intentionally anyway, it's mostly just foreshortening
 
Pokemon fans that blame an entire medium for not liking a mon design are annoying as shit. I've seen people suddenly act like Geeta's design is fixed in 2D cuz of an off model frame in the anime that shrunk her eyes and it's like...y'all are genuinely stupid

> implying geeta isnt one of the best designs in this franchise
 
Saturday night Rankings (mainly from gens 1-5):

Rivals:

1. Blue: He's obnoxious in such a fun way. Definitely the best at playing the heel, and his in-game fights feel like they matter
2. Hugh (B2W2 guy): he is single-minded and what he represents is very on the nose, but it's so raw.
3. N: the idea of him somewhat outpaces the actual character, but still is great
4. Silver: I wish his in-game team was a little stronger, but I like his story a lot. I feel like he's a little worse written in HGSS, but the Claire/Lance fight was an absolute blast in the postgame
5. Cheren: I like him a lot, he reminds me of a lot of characters in children's books, like Klaus from a Series of Unfortunate Events, and is also the most like myself
6. Barry: Dares to answer the question, what would happen if you gave an 11 year old child unlimited access to stimulants (likely on behalf of his father, to see if it would provide a competitive advantage if used on Pokemon)
7. Bianca: I don't feel too strongly about this, but I kinda wished it hadn't been the girl character who gave up on being the best Pokemon trainer.. I understand it from a plot perspective ofc. She actually is a good fight before then too!!
8. Hau: I don't understand why he gets sm hate. He's the first character that really felt like a kid. I probably shouldn't comment until I finish the story tho
9. Brendan: I genuinely didn't realize he was mean to my character (May) until I read comments online because I didn't care enough to read his dialogue.
10. Wally: God Bless Us, Everyone!!
11. Nemona: nothing says someone has an insatiable love of fighting like losing literally every single fight fairly easily.
12. Arven: they didn't do the best job with his character, but he does function well as part of the story




New Pokemon Introduced:

1. Johto: I am cheating here, and semi-including the Gen 4 additional evolutions here because they were based on the Gen 2 Pokemon. Out of the entire series, about half of my favorite designs come from this generation. When I made of my top 100, the region with the most Pokemon was Johto. I don't love every single design, but there are like 10 Pokemon I'd consider if I had to get a Pokemon tattoo. I know people say they aren't necessarily the strongest, but they're such great designs I'm willing to deal

2. Black/White: This game has such an underrated Pokedex. I like how most of the dex is strong enough to be useable and has a niche. There's a ton of designs I really gravitate to, and choosing a team is hard because I feel connected to so many Pokemon and want to include them

3. Kanto: I like Kanto's a lot. Not much to say. I feel like this is the best generation for single-stage evolutions, and there's a ton of Pokemon I have a soft spot for. I've seen some of the Pokemon in games too frequently and get a little bored of them, but the top 30/40% of the dex absolutely rules.

4. Hoenn: I GUESS I like this dex. It has been growing on me as of late, but I feel like there's a ton of "meh" Pokemon that most people don't really fw. The gimmick Pokemon like Slaking, Shedinja, and Keckleon aren't really my cup of tea, there's stuff that gets highlighted that isn't really interesting enough to. I do like some of the designs a lot tho, and after my current Ruby playthrough I may feel more positively.

Funnily enough, ADV has shifted my taste a little bit, because I've had a lot of success with Salamence and Claydoll as of late

5. Sinnoh: I like the cross-gen evolutions, and there's like 5-10 other designs I really like, but it's a small dex, and there's like 1-2 many misses. There is also room for growth tho.




Starters:


1. Typhlosion
2. Swampert
3. Blastoise
4. Torterra
5. Sceptile
6. Samurott
7. Snivy
8. Feraligatr
9. Blaizken
10. Zard
11. Chimchar
12. Empoleon
13. Magenium
14. Venasaur
15. Embroar
 
Pokemon fans that blame an entire medium for not liking a mon design are annoying as shit. I've seen people suddenly act like Geeta's design is fixed in 2D cuz of an off model frame in the anime that shrunk her eyes and it's like...y'all are genuinely stupid
Geeta has dumbass bugged eyes and hair regardless of the medium, though the games made the eyes less B E E G
View attachment 709309

View attachment 709308
Poor posing can make a char boring, but that's not the base design 90% of cases. Boltund line looking happy and playful in 2D art doesn't hide that it's a shit design to me, it's literally a recolored dog that's a poor man's Jolteon. Same for Pawmot line being incredibly mediocre design wise

Cyndaquil "fans" are probably the biggest whiners about this, they genuinely dismiss the line being flameless in many scenarios since Gen 2 in alt media, then lie saying it never flames up in XY-SwSh even though it does when it's attacking with a fire move

View attachment 709313

Ash's Cyndaquil literally couldn't flame properly as an ep plot, it's amazing how tunnel visioned fans are to only looking at game sprites. Even then, Dex entries note it only doing so when threatened/startled

Same for complaining about mon color, like lol. That is NOT a medium issue, they literally are trying to match 2D art. And leaks show us it was a late dev change, they're more saturated 2011-early 2012 :V

I do find it funny how the when people talk about shit Sky Battle anims (rightfully so), they ignore that amie...has actual grounded anims for those mons
View attachment 709314
Including the infamous Eelektross
View attachment 709315
Which ScaVio sadly do use for the latter...explicitly when not battling or Synchro

Regardless, not a medium issue. There are many sprites that have the "awkward boring idle pose" in FRLG, yet I'm not condemning an entire medium cuz that's stupid. Similarly, I'm not gonna go "Oh Pokemon was never meant to be 3D" when Porygon literally was made to address that, and the franchise got hooked on it for ads since 1997. Sugimori barely fucks perspective intentionally anyway, it's mostly just foreshortening
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This gif has single handedly ruined Pokémon discourse for the next decade
 
Feraligatr getting skinny in Gen 4 makes me sad, RIP his jaw and hunched back

I'm of the weird category where I'd say most of Golduck's front sprites suck largely for how his head or eyes are drawn. I like his Yellow sprite with no complaints, but the rest
-RGB are lol
-Gold and Crystal his body is super long, legs squat. Crystal also has colors wrong for some reason
-Silver's is good
-RSE isn't too bad for proportions, but pose isn't as good as Yellow's
-FRLG his bill is wrong
-DPPt what even is this 2nd frame? Bill for both DP and Pt are off in different ways, and head spikes are too short
-HGSS bill is too pointy, and head spikes are too short

BW is Plat based so similar beak/spike issues

I genuinely prefer the Gen 6 model proportions despite weak posing. The Home render weirdly shrinks his spikes despite the actual game model not doing so... :psyangry:
 
Feraligatr getting skinny in Gen 4 makes me sad, RIP his jaw and hunched back

I'm of the weird category where I'd say most of Golduck's front sprites suck largely for how his head or eyes are drawn. I like his Yellow sprite with no complaints, but the rest
-RGB are lol
-Gold and Crystal his body is super long, legs squat. Crystal also has colors wrong for some reason
-Silver's is good
-RSE isn't too bad for proportions, but pose isn't as good as Yellow's
-FRLG his bill is wrong
-DPPt what even is this 2nd frame? Bill for both DP and Pt are off in different ways, and head spikes are too short
-HGSS bill is too pointy, and head spikes are too short

BW is Plat based so similar beak/spike issues

I genuinely prefer the Gen 6 model proportions despite weak posing. The Home render weirdly shrinks his spikes despite the actual game model not doing so... :psyangry:
They even removed his fat ass. Truly the worst part about Feraligatrs sprite in Gen 4.
 
Honestly I could write a whole essay about this but I'll try to keep it short lol

Why Pokémon Needs Loading Screens

I'm not talking here about a technical, software reason for loading screens: in my eyes, Pokémon, conceptually, benefits more from
having loading screens over seamless areas. Let me explain:

In the older games, towns and routes were compact aproximations of their real life counterparts. You could travel between towns in a couple
of minutes and the towns themselves only had a dozen buildings, at most. You could say this is purely due to hardware limitations, but
I'd argue it helped create a better sense of immersion. You'd instinctively understand that what you're seeing is a representation of the
Pokémon world, that there was more to it than you could see, to the point it never felt weird that towns looked much bigger in adaptations
of the source material. This isn't something you could only achieve in a top-down game of course: for all of its flaws, SwSh managed to give
its towns a true sense of scale, even if the maps themselves weren't any more complex than previous games. You can even see this outside of
Pokémon: the towns of Dragon Quest XI, for exemple, are actually pretty small when you think about it, but by making them individual areas with loading screens, the devs were able to frame them in a way that makes them feel big.

That's the magic of loading screens: by making a distinct separation between areas, you create a gap in the player's mind to be filled in
by their own imagination. By putting a loading screen in between areas, you can give the sense that there's a lot of space in between them
without having to actually create that space. You could even justify this in-universe for better immersion, by making the player take a bus or a train to travel between maps for exemple.

SV, in contrast, aimed to create a more seamless experience, both for exploration and battles, but by doing so, I'd argue that now players
need a bigger suspension of disbelief to immerse themselves in the world. Since you now have complete access to the world, you can clearly
see how limited it is: you can travel between towns in minutes; you can see that each town only has a handful of buildings. The flimsiness
of the world is plain for everyone to see. BOTW, arguably the game's main inspiration and reason to exist, could get away with a seamless
world because of its post-apocalyptic setting and the sense of isolation it was aiming to create, so it made sense that the settlements would be
pretty small. That approach doesn't quite work for a world as bustling and active as Pokémon. This problem also extends to battles in a way, as
the artificiality of turn-based battles is even more apparent when they occupy the same space as the rest of the world.


So yeah, that's my take. Sorry if it sounds too out-there, I tried to explain it as clearly as I could.
 
Diantha is overhated. Not because she's remarkable as a Champion, but because the Champion title in mainline games is regarded way too highly by fans and Pokémon can easily make better final bosses than any of them by how they currently are.

In the grand scheme of the video game series, for what trainers have really been shown to be capable of, all non-player Champions in mainline games suck on some level. Cynthia happens to suck the least battle-wise, but is a watered-down Steven character-wise and does not have anything worth being notable outside her battle being rough mostly for newcomers. The fact its too much to ask for Gamefreak to have Champion trainers build up teams consisting of legendary and/or mythical Pokémon and have then be level 100 somewhere in the postgame proves my point especially when side series and spinoff games give us:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Supertrainer_(Trainer_class)
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mysterial
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Giovanni_(GO) (battles are 3v3)
https://www.serebii.net/stadium2/rival.shtml
and many battles against Masters EX Sync Pairs where mainline characters are given Pokémon that far exceed anything they ever had in mainline games, such as Sygna Suit Leon + Eternatus.

You're also able to set up battles like these in Pokémon Conquest, where notable NPC characters have legendary Pokémon that they've shown to earn in the game and all of them are at the equivalent of level 100:
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In the main series department, players can battle the likes of Pokémon such as Level 100 Latios, Zapdos, Suicune, and many more of this caliber in gens 3-4 battle facilities. They're all Level 50 in Gens 5-7 but you are also capped at Level 50, still making it an even and fair fight. Arceus itself spits over dozens of random level 100 Pokémon at you in the Eternal Battle Reverie, including legendaries such as all 3 creation trio members simultaneously, with the Arceus itself being the final boss, at maximum level. The player themselves have access to encountering many wild Pokémon and many trainers with Pokémon far beyond anything an official NPC Champion has ever shown to have in main series games. It has gotten to the point where something seemed terribly off, and in Generation 6, Pokémon became more realistic with explaining their hierarchy of trainers.

In the image below, a trainer in Pokémon Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire realizes there are many random trainers who are stronger than Champions, as being stronger than the Champion is the requirement for trying out the Battle Institute and many trainers from all over the World of Pokémon have access to it.
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In these same games, there's a trainer class known as Secret Base Trainers. Players can make NPC versions of themselves by creating Secret Bases and sharing them with others to end up in other people's games. Their NPC selves can be given three of any Pokémon, ranging from Bulbasaur to Mega Diancie on the National Dex. All Pokémon found in Super Secret Bases are registered as seen on the Pokédex, the trainer battle gives you money, depending on the level of Pokémon you fought ranging from 1-100, and Secret Base Trainers are an official trainer class in these Pokémon games. If you really wanted to you can go out and actually battle some NPC in ORAS with a Level 100 Arceus every day. I've done that for nearly a month at one point.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Secret_Base_Trainer_(Trainer_class)

There's plenty of more examples to pick from for where regular trainers and what players are able to encounter exceed anything an official NPC Pokémon Champion has ever shown in mainline games, but the point I'm trying to express is that no Champion was truly ever great, aside from the player. Diantha shouldn't be slandered as hard as she is nor should Cynthia be praised as much as she is.


That being said, Geeta single-handedly makes the whole title of Champion look like a joke with how she runs the league. She claims is "utterly incapable of holding back" while simultaneously using the most subpar organization of Pokémon we've ever seen from a Champion and focusing her emotions on whether or not her challengers follow by basics such as not letting their Pokémon get hit by super effective moves. She literally babies her challengers into being "good enough" to be considered Champion of the region while giving them battles where she is blatantly not trying her best despite making a victory against her be the main qualifier of the Champion position. It feels as if she's trying to hand out Champion positions like candy rather than making it a truly meaningful position with a lot of responsibility. In older gens, we not only know for sure that a Champion is giving their all, but know they can expect their challengers to not have to be babied for a title designed to portray what's on paper, one of the strongest positions that can be held in a Pokémon region, as even making it past the Elite Four in the first place shows how much experience the challenger has had.

Ok that was all. I just felt like rambling about this.
 
There's plenty of more examples to pick from for where regular trainers and what players are able to encounter exceed anything an official NPC Pokémon Champion has ever shown in mainline games, but the point I'm trying to express is that no Champion was truly ever great, aside from the player. Diantha shouldn't be slandered as hard as she is nor should Cynthia be praised as much as she is.

Diantha's most notable flaw imo is how little of a presence she makes in her game, despite being a superstar level celebrity in Kalos. You only meet her twice in the whole game before the champion battle, very few times ppl talk about her (I don't think anyone brings up her trainer skill at all) and she's not even present at all during the Flare crisis, sth that was televised to everyone. To not bring up his predecessors, Leon feels like a better executed character. He's also a celebrity in his region, but his public reputation makes the 'superstar' aspect of him feel more believable. So I don't think it's entirely a teambuilding issue.

That being said, Geeta single-handedly makes the whole title of Champion look like a joke with how she runs the league. She claims is "utterly incapable of holding back" while simultaneously using the most subpar organization of Pokémon we've ever seen from a Champion and focusing her emotions on whether or not her challengers follow by basics such as not letting their Pokémon get hit by super effective moves. She literally babies her challengers into being "good enough" to be considered Champion of the region while giving them battles where she is blatantly not trying her best despite making a victory against her be the main qualifier of the Champion position. It feels as if she's trying to hand out Champion positions like candy rather than making it a truly meaningful position with a lot of responsibility. In older gens, we not only know for sure that a Champion is giving their all, but know they can expect their challengers to not have to be babied for a title designed to portray what's on paper, one of the strongest positions that can be held in a Pokémon region, as even making it past the Elite Four in the first place shows how much experience the challenger has had.

Ok that was all. I just felt like rambling about this.

I understand Paldea manages the Champion title differently from other regions, being ranks that more than one trainer can carry, but man, that Top Champion moniker isn't doing her any favors. I've seen arguments that "actually going easy" is how she's supposed to play against challengers, but at this point, they have beaten 8 gym leaders and the E4. If she's really not going all out then that's pretty darn condescending...

Speaking of which where tf are the other champion rank trainers? Paldea had sth unique with this, but the only regular champion rank we see is Nemona, who feels so lonely that there's no trainer that can match her...in a region where there's multiple champion rank trainers that share her title??? Again, the game does a poor job in executing an otherwise interesting idea.
 
Diantha's most notable flaw imo is how little of a presence she makes in her game, despite being a superstar level celebrity in Kalos. You only meet her twice in the whole game before the champion battle, very few times ppl talk about her (I don't think anyone brings up her trainer skill at all) and she's not even present at all during the Flare crisis, sth that was televised to everyone. To not bring up his predecessors, Leon feels like a better executed character. He's also a celebrity in his region, but his public reputation makes the 'superstar' aspect of him feel more believable. So I don't think it's entirely a teambuilding issue.
Diantha is a mid champion character-wise, with a fairly weak team.

The real hate towards her is that she's coming off Gen 4 and 5's more developed champions, so she is quite a downgrade compared to the likes of Lance, Cynthia, N, and Iris. :mehowth:
 
I'm still adamant that monotype champions are better, to me Lance, Iris, and Steven are the hardest champs, because with a more diverse team, I'm more likely to have a counter I can trade down. And all I have to do is to have 1 Pokemon remaining after all the trades

With a monotype team (relatively speaking here) even if I have 1-2 counters for the specific type, it's likely to be insufficient to beat 6 strong Pokemon, which will cause me to think of a plan. For example, in HGSS, my Lapras could easily 1 v 1 a Dragonite, but even with Shell Bell, it couldn't do all 3.
 
Diantha is a mid champion character-wise, with a fairly weak team.

The real hate towards her is that she's coming off Gen 4 and 5's more developed champions, so she is quite a downgrade compared to the likes of Lance, Cynthia, N, and Iris. :mehowth:

I don’t think “developed” is the word I’d use to describe anyone on that list besides N. Cynthia and Lance are more involved than Diantha, but as far as the depth of character goes, they’re all pretty flat. (Actually, I think Alder warrants a mention in the character depth department. It’s not extensive, because ultimately he exists to be usurped by N, but we do get more backstory on him and why he has the outlook that he does than we do with Lance, Steven, Wallace, Cynthia, or Diantha, who are all just good and wise people by default.)

And Iris is probably even less involved than Diantha… she shows up, what… once during the story of B2W2? And that’s just to hold your hand to the sewers.
 
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I don’t think “developed” is the word I’d use to describe anyone on that list besides N. Cynthia and Lance are more involved than Diantha, but as far as the depth of character goes, they’re all pretty flat.

And Iris is probably even less involved than Diantha… she shows up, what… once during the story of B2W2? And that’s just to hold your hand to the sewers.
I feel like there's something maternalistic aesthetically about Cynthia. i don't remember exactly what gave me that impression, it may have been how she interacted with Cyrus
 
I'm still adamant that monotype champions are better, to me Lance, Iris, and Steven are the hardest champs, because with a more diverse team, I'm more likely to have a counter I can trade down. And all I have to do is to have 1 Pokemon remaining after all the trades

With a monotype team (relatively speaking here) even if I have 1-2 counters for the specific type, it's likely to be insufficient to beat 6 strong Pokemon, which will cause me to think of a plan. For example, in HGSS, my Lapras could easily 1 v 1 a Dragonite, but even with Shell Bell, it couldn't do all 3.
Steven isn't monotype though? Rock/Bug, Rock/Grass, Steel/Flying, Steel/Rock, Ground/Psychic, Steel/Psychic.
 
I'm still adamant that monotype champions are better, to me Lance, Iris, and Steven are the hardest champs, because with a more diverse team, I'm more likely to have a counter I can trade down. And all I have to do is to have 1 Pokemon remaining after all the trades

With a monotype team (relatively speaking here) even if I have 1-2 counters for the specific type, it's likely to be insufficient to beat 6 strong Pokemon, which will cause me to think of a plan. For example, in HGSS, my Lapras could easily 1 v 1 a Dragonite, but even with Shell Bell, it couldn't do all 3.
That's... an interesting point of view.

I guess it depends a lot on the type and team composition. For example, Wallace can put some pressure on people because Water is such a great type, but can you really say you don't have at least 2 mons with TBolt to beat him?

My biggest problem with Cynthia's team is that Spiritomb, besides the "Holy shit, it has no weaknesses" factor, is not threatening enough. If it could effectively handle one mon on its own somehow, it'd be a lot better and she'd be even stronger.

As is, you're kind of right, you usually have to go band for band until you can Ice Beam that Garchomp and pack her up. Even then, it's impressive how Cynthia usually can have answers to what mons you got. Usually, a major in-game trainer boils down to "Pick a lead with a type advantage, press A on the SE move as needed, win." Outside of Switch mode (And that's mostly because it tells you her switch-in), you're not in a great spot after KOing something against her.

To me, it boils down to strong mons and a coherent strategy. A Champion shouldn't be like... Well, this:

1738692564798.png


Now that was a bad champion, good lord. :facepalm:
 
Diantha is overhated. Not because she's remarkable as a Champion, but because the Champion title in mainline games is regarded way too highly by fans and Pokémon can easily make better final bosses than any of them by how they currently are.

In the grand scheme of the video game series, for what trainers have really been shown to be capable of, all non-player Champions in mainline games suck on some level. Cynthia happens to suck the least battle-wise, but is a watered-down Steven character-wise and does not have anything worth being notable outside her battle being rough mostly for newcomers. The fact its too much to ask for Gamefreak to have Champion trainers build up teams consisting of legendary and/or mythical Pokémon and have then be level 100 somewhere in the postgame proves my point especially when side series and spinoff games give us:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Supertrainer_(Trainer_class)
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mysterial
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Giovanni_(GO) (battles are 3v3)
https://www.serebii.net/stadium2/rival.shtml
and many battles against Masters EX Sync Pairs where mainline characters are given Pokémon that far exceed anything they ever had in mainline games, such as Sygna Suit Leon + Eternatus.

You're also able to set up battles like these in Pokémon Conquest, where notable NPC characters have legendary Pokémon that they've shown to earn in the game and all of them are at the equivalent of level 100:
View attachment 710478View attachment 710477

In the main series department, players can battle the likes of Pokémon such as Level 100 Latios, Zapdos, Suicune, and many more of this caliber in gens 3-4 battle facilities. They're all Level 50 in Gens 5-7 but you are also capped at Level 50, still making it an even and fair fight. Arceus itself spits over dozens of random level 100 Pokémon at you in the Eternal Battle Reverie, including legendaries such as all 3 creation trio members simultaneously, with the Arceus itself being the final boss, at maximum level. The player themselves have access to encountering many wild Pokémon and many trainers with Pokémon far beyond anything an official NPC Champion has ever shown to have in main series games. It has gotten to the point where something seemed terribly off, and in Generation 6, Pokémon became more realistic with explaining their hierarchy of trainers.

In the image below, a trainer in Pokémon Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire realizes there are many random trainers who are stronger than Champions, as being stronger than the Champion is the requirement for trying out the Battle Institute and many trainers from all over the World of Pokémon have access to it.
View attachment 710487

In these same games, there's a trainer class known as Secret Base Trainers. Players can make NPC versions of themselves by creating Secret Bases and sharing them with others to end up in other people's games. Their NPC selves can be given three of any Pokémon, ranging from Bulbasaur to Mega Diancie on the National Dex. All Pokémon found in Super Secret Bases are registered as seen on the Pokédex, the trainer battle gives you money, depending on the level of Pokémon you fought ranging from 1-100, and Secret Base Trainers are an official trainer class in these Pokémon games. If you really wanted to you can go out and actually battle some NPC in ORAS with a Level 100 Arceus every day. I've done that for nearly a month at one point.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Secret_Base_Trainer_(Trainer_class)

There's plenty of more examples to pick from for where regular trainers and what players are able to encounter exceed anything an official NPC Pokémon Champion has ever shown in mainline games, but the point I'm trying to express is that no Champion was truly ever great, aside from the player. Diantha shouldn't be slandered as hard as she is nor should Cynthia be praised as much as she is.


That being said, Geeta single-handedly makes the whole title of Champion look like a joke with how she runs the league. She claims is "utterly incapable of holding back" while simultaneously using the most subpar organization of Pokémon we've ever seen from a Champion and focusing her emotions on whether or not her challengers follow by basics such as not letting their Pokémon get hit by super effective moves. She literally babies her challengers into being "good enough" to be considered Champion of the region while giving them battles where she is blatantly not trying her best despite making a victory against her be the main qualifier of the Champion position. It feels as if she's trying to hand out Champion positions like candy rather than making it a truly meaningful position with a lot of responsibility. In older gens, we not only know for sure that a Champion is giving their all, but know they can expect their challengers to not have to be babied for a title designed to portray what's on paper, one of the strongest positions that can be held in a Pokémon region, as even making it past the Elite Four in the first place shows how much experience the challenger has had.

Ok that was all. I just felt like rambling about this.

Here's my unpopular opinion: The Battle Facilities are overvalued when discussing Trainer Scaling like this, and I hate that Ace Trainer for reinforcing that idea. They make for very fun gameplay additions, but their post-game status is conflated with their lore value. At large this is putting way too much stock on concessions made for gameplay as opposed to something the world designers thought about putting stock in for what little consistency the series has. I want to briefly dress down some of the other examples before I dig into the facilities.
  • First, Rivals, Supertrainers, and Mysterial appear strictly in Battle-only games like Stadium or specifically the story-agnostic Battle-Sim modes of the Orre games. They don't mean a damn thing for what the series is saying about trainer power narratively
  • Giovanni in Pokemon Go, aside from clearly playing by different Gameplay rules (Go's Shield system and Charge Moves vs Turn-based main series) is also in-lore using Shadow Pokemon that have been pumped to high hell with a non-standard power level (as are most Rocket Shadows) breaking 5 Digit Combat Power (for reference, Mega Rayquaza, the literal strongest thing you can get Numerically, caps out below 6500) that isn't retained when you rescue-capture the Pokemon yourself (as compared to the Orre Games' Narrative Shadows). You're essentially saying Giovanni proves the Champions can be stronger when the world building is that these Pokemon are artificially enhanced into fighting machines, literally a shortcut to power that the villains take because they're not good but want shortcuts to power.
  • Arceus in the Eternal Battle Reverie is a setting that has minimal Pokemon Battling compared to other Pokemon settings (even including a lot of spin-offs), and is hosted by the Capital-G God of the setting in what is either a dream or other-worldly scape. This is the equivalent of calling a Professional Boxer mid because they're not as strong as God summoning Angels or Beerus throwing Goku at you. Narratively these aren't comparable circumstances or rosters.
  • Also if we're going to bring post-game into this, do we just ignore the level jumps given to the E4 and Champions in most games which put their levels on top of the majority of in-game trainers that aren't player-plants (no, that dude in a Secret Base with 3 Level 100 Arceus is not canon, you numbskull)?

The Facilities specifically implement a Level set to equalize power between trainers: the guy using a Level 100 Latios isn't rocking Level 100 Pokemon he trained, he's running it because you max leveled your stuff and the Powers that be for the Game systems need to make sure you don't number stomp the Super Bosses the way you can the main game. Most of the Frontier Brains, the "best of the best" for their facilities, also have pretty unimpressive teams if not for the handicap of their facility's mechanics (Dusknoir with Fling when it's a slot machine to get a Berry, much less a thing to throw), and the anime/other depictions make a pretty consistent show that they're in line more with the stronger Gym Leaders than the Elite Four or Champions (Ash taking down the entire Hoenn frontier, meanwhile he can't even touch a Champion opponent until either the Runner-Up Kalos match or the Masters 8).

Diantha gets dunked on because she's in the gassed up Champion position and yet she has jack to do with the story until she's revealed as such: Gen 1 is nebulous because I was never clear if Lance was top dog before Blue or Blue replaced a prior champion, but Gens 2-5 all depict the Champion making multiple plot-important appearances before they take the spot of the endgame (which in BW still applies to N taking the title from Alder with his Dragon), while Diantha has 2 conversations amounting to "what are you talking about?" and then disappears during the impending WMD Apocalypse that was broadcast over the airwaves (Compare Steven/Wallace during the Weather Crisis or Cynthia following to the Distortion World) without any excuse or even handwave (like imagine if the Champ was Malva or a Team Flare Plant to manipulate the masses). Diantha is a terrible Champion not because her team is weak, but because the story almost seems to forget she plays the part until the last minute.

I've always found bringing game mechanics into Power Scaling (as opposed to events and feats acknowledged by the story) idiotic since games are by nature designed for the player rather than a 1-to-1 reflection of a story they're watching vs interacting with (notice how you losing a climactic battle never canonically causes the actual end of the world, vs everyone just waiting around to do a retake). This is the equivalent of arguing that because I can pit AI Krillin with a bunch of Super-Perks against AI Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in a DBZ game and have the former win, that Super Vegito isn't the strongest character in the roster due to the game making it possible for someone else to hit harder than him. If the Champions weren't truly great, neither were the arguments against them when we look at THIS as a standard.
 
I feel like there's something maternalistic aesthetically about Cynthia. i don't remember exactly what gave me that impression, it may have been how she interacted with Cyrus

She gives me maternalistic vibes too, what with all the chores she assigns me :psysad:

“Be a dear and take this medicine to those sick Psyduck on the other side of the region, if you’d please?”

“Be a dear and run this necklace up to my grandma in the next town over, would you?”

“Be a dear and stop that genocidal lunatic and the rampaging antimatter demon from destroying the world, if you wouldn’t mind?”
 
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I'm still adamant that monotype champions are better, to me Lance, Iris, and Steven are the hardest champs, because with a more diverse team, I'm more likely to have a counter I can trade down. And all I have to do is to have 1 Pokemon remaining after all the trades

With a monotype team (relatively speaking here) even if I have 1-2 counters for the specific type, it's likely to be insufficient to beat 6 strong Pokemon, which will cause me to think of a plan. For example, in HGSS, my Lapras could easily 1 v 1 a Dragonite, but even with Shell Bell, it couldn't do all 3.
By default, I'd probably assume that the player has a single stronger ace than a balanced team because that's where casual players seem to start with. So I think of monotype gyms more under the logic of stacking checks to a massive threat than exhausting a regular-strength answer (with multiple gyms splitting the duties since the typing of the player's ace isn't knowable). The champion needs to be consistently intense by itself, so it's more awkward in general. If you were running a faster Ice like Froslass, would multiple Dragonites still be a problem? Interestingly, I think of Diantha as not having a great team because I felt that I could threaten a sweep with one mon (aegislash) with her only answer being shared with another E4's primary type (so I would already be prepared for it).
 
That's... an interesting point of view.

I guess it depends a lot on the type and team composition. For example, Wallace can put some pressure on people because Water is such a great type, but can you really say you don't have at least 2 mons with TBolt to beat him?
That's fair. I haven't played through each game that many times
My biggest problem with Cynthia's team is that Spiritomb, besides the "Holy shit, it has no weaknesses" factor, is not threatening enough. If it could effectively handle one mon on its own somehow, it'd be a lot better and she'd be even stronger.

As is, you're kind of right, you usually have to go band for band until you can Ice Beam that Garchomp and pack her up. Even then, it's impressive how Cynthia usually can have answers to what mons you got. Usually, a major in-game trainer boils down to "Pick a lead with a type advantage, press A on the SE move as needed, win." Outside of Switch mode (And that's mostly because it tells you her switch-in), you're not in a great spot after KOing something against her.

To me, it boils down to strong mons and a coherent strategy.
Against Cynthia, my team was Houndoom, Azumarill, (naked) Rotom with specs, Staraptor, Garchomp, and Bronzong

My general strategy was to start Houndoom, take out Spiritomb, then Cynthia brings in Milotic. I let Houndoom go down, and then bring in Choice Specs Rotom who one shots. Cynthia brings in Garchomp, who one shots Rotom. I intim spam with Staraptor and switch in Bronzong. When safe, bring in Azumarill who can KO Garchomp with Ice Punch.

Then, Cynthia brings out Roserade, and I can bring in Bronzong who walls it. Then there's Lucario who Garchomp can deal with, and Togekiss can be handled between wtv remains of Garchomp and Azumarill and Staraptor.

I beat Cynthia the first time my team was between 52-56 in levels i think, or wtv is reasonable.


With Lance in HGSS, I went in there with Typhlosion, Scyther, Quagsire, Lapras, Heracross, and a slightly underleveled Ursaring, and I had trouble with him at a similar level disparity. Half the team couldn't do jack. Ofc part of that is the lack of good tms in Johto and hiding Thunderbolt behind a fucking minigame but...

By default, I'd probably assume that the player has a single stronger ace than a balanced team because that's where casual players seem to start with. So I think of monotype gyms more under the logic of stacking checks to a massive threat than exhausting a regular-strength answer (with multiple gyms splitting the duties since the typing of the player's ace isn't knowable). The champion needs to be consistently intense by itself, so it's more awkward in general. If you were running a faster Ice like Froslass, would multiple Dragonites still be a problem? Interestingly, I think of Diantha as not having a great team because I felt that I could threaten a sweep with one mon (aegislash) with her only answer being shared with another E4's primary type (so I would already be prepared for it).
that's fair and an interesting assessment I hadn't considered.

With HGSS Lance, he's def a bit lower down in terms of champions I like bc I'd say the difficulty comes in part from your limitations as to movesets/tms and lack of available counters in the region. Iris does it better, although you're right, if you have a great counter it trivializes the fight.
 
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You're missing the forest for the trees.

No one is directly comparing OoT to Platinum as games. The comparison made was their impact on their franchises as gold standards and how, in certain ways, despite their impact, they're showing their age.

Also, that second bit is objectively incorrect. The Zelda franchise did not start at OoT. A Link to the Past had a fairly similar structure to it in many ways. The biggest difference is that Ocarina of Time did it in 3D and on an unprecedented scale at the time. Building upon the old games, as Platinum itself did, is one of the reasons Ocarina wound up so iconic.


Perfectly said. :blobthumbsup:

There's another layer to this. Pokémon games nowadays have major gimmicks attached to them since XY introduced Megas. SV went a step beyond and made the game open-world. Regardless of how one feels towards it, SV is very different from a traditional Pokémon game. That only reinforces the comparison between OoT and Platinum's impacts on their franchises.
I'm gonna make it entirely blunt: I do not think Pokemon Platinum is a good videogame, I think Ocarina of Time is a good videogame, even though I am not personally a fan of Ocarina of Time either.

Pokemon Platinum does not have a steep legacy that brought what Pokemon is today. Generation 5 itself denied 80% of what Sinnoh did and brought along new things, and despite what people may say, the games afterwards are actually fairly direct follow ups on Unova's game design trends.

What Generation 4 brings in legacy is Physical/Special Split and Wi-Fi Battles, features that likely would have come anyways, and just happen to be in the generation of Sinnoh.

Sinnoh's game design cannot be an Ocarina of Time because it's just Kanto Game Design but 10 years later, and unlike the jump from A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time, Platinum is actually fucking uglier and less technically impressive than its predecessors, Gen 3. I've said it before several times, I think Generation 4, especially DP, is the most behind Game Freak has ever been with its technical prowess: Including the Switch generation. At best, it slides slightly ahead of one of the Switch games.

There is no leap. Generation 4 was a very linear "upgrade" from its predecessors. Most of its new shit has been ignored since. Its legacy is happenstance additions and characters like Cynthia, and Pokemon; things that move on from every generation.
 
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