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the bigger problem I see is (from the most recent usage rates update) that Zama isn't even top5 in usage. it has less than half the usage rate of the "pokemon that the more usage it has, the healthier the tier is", Great Tusk.
i think saying it's "not even top 5" when it's 0.025% usage away from being in the top 5 is kind of missing the mark. we should also note that these are combined usage stats over three months, which is good for analyzing long-term trends for tier shifts but smooths over short-term increases or decreases in usage that are useful for real-time meta analysis. also, these are a month out of date—the stats for last month show zamazenta at number 4, and number 3 in the 1825 stats. if we want to get even more recent, it was the single most used mon in week 1 of spl and the third most in week 2. this is an extremely highly used mon that's in contention for being the best mon in the entire meta and i'm not sure what the "bigger problem" is here
also what the hell are we even doing man, why is annihilape being discussed in 2025. i thought we as a civilization were beyond this kind of tomfoolery
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it might be useful adding a "gimmick" option, for stuff like trick room or sticky web, or even just a catch-all "other", which could include like semistall. I'm also pretty sure the Kantonian Weezing sprite in the Balance image is meant to be a Galarian Weezing, but I'd bet 99% of competent players know what it represents
to be fair, a lot of the complaints of "but the opposing sweeper tera'd into a type that resisted/is immune to what would've killed it" usually happen because that mon happened to have set up a bit too much to begin with. yes, defensive tera on setup sweepers does make that class of mons even stronger, but most sweepers end up running offensive teras anyways. tera blast is more of a problem than tera itself. banning Tera would be a drastic change, that would perhaps fix the metagame? yeah. banning tera blast would also be beneficial to the current state of the metagame? absolutely. I personally think that removing tera blast would be worth a shot. unfortunately, Dragapult would lose its only reliable physical ghost-type STAB, Serperior would become even worse, but that mon's not really OU material anyways
point is, a mon that has reached an above 80% usage rate (pre-DLC) is a huge red flag to how the metagame isn't really healthy.
and that mon still has an usage rate 12% higher than the 2nd most used mon in the tier.
having a really high usage rate doesn’t necessarily mean that a metagame isn’t healthy. yveltal/etern/NDM is essentially on almost every single gen 8 ubers team but basically anyone who’s played the tier would tell you none of them are anywhere near unhealthy. (ubers and ou do have somewhat different tiering standards, but metagame health is a metric that both apply fairly similarly to the point that the comparison is fair). less extreme, but similarly, gen 8 lando-t had upwards of 50% usage at some points during the gen. it’s very hard to argue in good faith that lando-t of all pokemon is broken or required because the metagame is unhealthy- swsh is literally one of the most balanced OU generations
Let’s stop talking about freeing Annihilape now: it’s never going to go anywhere, and as long as it keeps Rage Fist and Tera remains in the tier, this Pokemon will never see the light of day in OU. It hasn’t come up as a re-suspect option for months, has little to no write ins on the survey, and will offer nothing to the tier except a broken threat that will singlehandidly kill Balance and Stall.
If people want to believe and advocate for freeing ape, let them- we have not seen this mon since literally the beginning of the generation, and while i do not believe it would be balanced personally it’s perfectly reasonable to at least bring it up as a possibility
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i think saying it's "not even top 5" when it's 0.025% usage away from being in the top 5 is kind of missing the mark. we should also note that these are combined usage stats over three months, which is good for analyzing long-term trends for tier shifts but smooths over short-term increases or decreases in usage that are useful for real-time meta analysis. also, these are a month out of date—the stats for last month show zamazenta at number 4, and number 3 in the 1825 stats. if we want to get even more recent, it was the single most used mon in week 1 of spl and the third most in week 2. this is an extremely highly used mon that's in contention for being the best mon in the entire meta and i'm not sure what the "bigger problem" is here
also what the hell are we even doing man, why is annihilape being discussed in 2025. i thought we as a civilization were beyond this kind of tomfoolery
I just mentioned Annihilape because yes, although I agree that the ape specifically should be banned, I wanted to show that, in 2025, the ape is not as oppressive as it was in 2023 when it was quickbanned. people are really missing the point on that post, please re-read it.
I'm not saying Zama isn't a problem, but I do find it very funny that it's not even among the top5 usage mons in OU regardless.
and look, other than the SPL, tusk is still the most used mon by a large margin, so... if you're complaining about a mon having a high usage rate...
having a really high usage rate doesn’t necessarily mean that a metagame isn’t healthy. yveltal/etern/NDM is essentially on almost every single gen 8 ubers team but basically anyone who’s played the tier would tell you none of them are anywhere near unhealthy. (ubers and ou do have somewhat different tiering standards, but metagame health is a metric that both apply fairly similarly to the point that the comparison is fair). less extreme, but similarly, gen 8 lando-t had upwards of 50% usage at some points during the gen. it’s very hard to argue in good faith that lando-t of all pokemon is broken or required because the metagame is unhealthy- swsh is literally one of the most balanced OU generations
yeah, the 80% before the DLCs was pretty ridiculous, though.
the main problem I have with tusk is not tusk being a really good mon that has every move it could possibly ever want, besides reliable recovery, being able to run multiple sets, having the ability to threaten the mons that commonly show up to block its rapid spin via Knock Off -> Headlong rush, etc..
the problem I really have is that there's a real conversation about suspect testing Pecharunt, a mon that has ONE viable set, because that would make Great Tusk even more viable in the OU tier.
maybe it's a poor choice of words from Srn on that post, but, you know...
and I may be taking too much credit over the Annihilape discussion, but I recently made a post advocating for less bans in this thread, where I used some calcs involving an already set-up ape vs Moltres and Zapdos, without tera, to show that it currently has more answers than it had before the DLCs came out.
ironically enough, I think neither Miraidon or Koraidon have ever been healthy for the Ubers tier, so there's that.
at least in Koraidon's defense, it gets hard walled by a freaking Dachsbun, I guess.
If people want to believe and advocate for freeing ape, let them- we have not seen this mon since literally the beginning of the generation, and while i do not believe it would be balanced personally it’s perfectly reasonable to at least bring it up as a possibility
ironically enough, I think neither Miraidon or Koraidon have ever been healthy for the Ubers tier, so there's that.
at least in Koraidon's defense, it gets hard walled by a freaking Dachsbun, I guess.
It derails the thread and is generally pointless. Do not discuss dropping an Uber, or Ubers in general, unless it is part of a suspect or tied into recent survey results. This is for OU metagame discussion, not Ubers and OU metagame discussion.
Shifting away from this topic, how do yall feel about Enamorus? It once again remains in OU with a relatively low usage stat, and I don’t really see anyone talk about it.
Idk how to feel, since I haven't seen it much at all. It's up to it's usual bag of tricks last I heard.
Scarf, CM, and the occasional Specs enthusiast (pretty neat once Glowking dies). I wouldn't say it doesn't deserve to be OU (it's still here for a reason), but if it dropped to UU, I doubt that many people would be too surprised. But, once again, doubt it's happening. Not sure how practical it is, but i'm partial to Tera Ground to gain STAB on Earth Power and flip the Raging Bolt matchup on it's head. That's some fun tech
It derails the thread and is generally pointless. Do not discuss dropping an Uber, or Ubers in general, unless it is part of a suspect or tied into recent survey results. This is for OU metagame discussion, not Ubers and OU metagame discussion.
Adding a bit of context: I mentioned the ape originally because I honestly think that OU is too ban heavy and that more suspect tests should be happening, and not just 1 mon at a time. I planned on making this a thread but Srn recommended me to post it as a reply in here instead.
Shifting away from this topic, how do yall feel about Enamorus? It once again remains in OU with a relatively low usage stat, and I don’t really see anyone talk about it.
the coolest thing I've seen involving that mon was having it with room service on a trick room team. hopping in on the last turn of TR to get that +1 speed, then proceed to sweep with superpower spam. it's a cool mon, she's also a good answer to Kingambit, if Tera has been exhausted already.
Shifting away from this topic, how do yall feel about Enamorus? It once again remains in OU with a relatively low usage stat, and I don’t really see anyone talk about it.
It definitely wishes it was slightly faster and had overall better abilities. Not saying that Contrary is bad. It just needs a better movepool to abuse it.
I do feel it loves the rise of sticky web teams, tho
it might be useful adding a "gimmick" option, for stuff like trick room or sticky web, or even just a catch-all "other", which could include like semistall. I'm also pretty sure the Kantonian Weezing sprite in the Balance image is meant to be a Galarian Weezing, but I'd bet 99% of competent players know what it represents
If it was a more thorough survey adding those options would be a good idea, but with such a small sample size (>100 currently) I thought just having the broad teamstyles was ok. Most gimmicky/niche styles can comfortably fall under one of the main 4. Webs and TR are HO, and semistall can go in either balance or stall.
For the weezing thing I just took the teams from the sample thread, and they use a weezing icon because there’s no pmd g-weezing sprite lol.
I've always wondered why choice item is standard on Enamorus when the entire appeal of the mon is how insane Fairy/Ground coverage is. Feels like you're taking away its main strength.
Granted, I don't know my Enamorus calcs that well, but there has to be a place for it other than Scarf because slower than the base 110's is intolerable.
yeah, the 80% before the DLCs was pretty ridiculous, though.
the main problem I have with tusk is not tusk being a really good mon that has every move it could possibly ever want, besides reliable recovery, being able to run multiple sets, having the ability to threaten the mons that commonly show up to block its rapid spin via Knock Off -> Headlong rush, etc..
the problem I really have is that there's a real conversation about suspect testing Pecharunt, a mon that has ONE viable set, because that would make Great Tusk even more viable in the OU tier.
maybe it's a poor choice of words from Srn on that post, but, you know...
and I may be taking too much credit over the Annihilape discussion, but I recently made a post advocating for less bans in this thread, where I used some calcs involving an already set-up ape vs Moltres and Zapdos, without tera, to show that it currently has more answers than it had before the DLCs came out.
ironically enough, I think neither Miraidon or Koraidon have ever been healthy for the Ubers tier, so there's that.
at least in Koraidon's defense, it gets hard walled by a freaking Dachsbun, I guess.
Tusk is objectively not that big of a threat in the meta rn. It sees high usage primarily for its utility in checking a few things and removing/setting hazards, not because it's ending games. I also want to say that high usage =/= unhealthy, broken etc. You can look at metas in the past like BW ubers kyogre or "current" ones like gsc ou snorlax. These are examples of pokemon that are definitely strong but are well contained and actually improve the meta by being around. I've been told that a gsc ou meta w/out snorlax was worse because threats like raikou and zapdos couldn't be limited.
But yes, let's move on from annihilape discussion. It will never be a healthy addition to the tier because some moves like rage fist were simply not designed with a singles meta in mind.
I've always wondered why choice item is standard on Enamorus when the entire appeal of the mon is how insane Fairy/Ground coverage is. Feels like you're taking away its main strength.
Granted, I don't know my Enamorus calcs that well, but there has to be a place for it other than Scarf because slower than the base 110's is intolerable.
here's a very sad calc for enamorus:
0- SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 296-350 (102.4 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Iron moth may not be the most popular mon in the tier, but it has its usage. it is also faster than scarf enamorus, unless it's SpA boosting, in which case it gets OHKOed by earth power.
just for funsies, though, if you ran a specially defensive iron moth, this is the minimal calc to survive a non-crit:
252 SpA Enamorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 232 SpD Iron Moth: 304-360 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and that same set does this:
28+ SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 480-566 (166 - 195.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 28+ SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 303-357 (104.8 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It definitely wishes it was slightly faster and had overall better abilities. Not saying that Contrary is bad. It just needs a better movepool to abuse it.
I do feel it loves the rise of sticky web teams, tho
I still think about how Pinkacross made teams with female physical attackers to avoid getting janked by Cute Charm. Imagine a world where Emamorus could change its gender and be an annoying POS fishing for Cute Charm procs (even if it doesn't have the bulk to do it well like the RNG birds).
But yeah, it can't 'sink' its stats on its own unless you run Superpower and desperately needs more speed which is why the majority of Enams use Scarf.
yeah, the 80% before the DLCs was pretty ridiculous, though.
the main problem I have with tusk is not tusk being a really good mon that has every move it could possibly ever want, besides reliable recovery, being able to run multiple sets, having the ability to threaten the mons that commonly show up to block its rapid spin via Knock Off -> Headlong rush, etc..
the problem I really have is that there's a real conversation about suspect testing Pecharunt, a mon that has ONE viable set, because that would make Great Tusk even more viable in the OU tier.
maybe it's a poor choice of words from Srn on that post, but, you know...
and I may be taking too much credit over the Annihilape discussion, but I recently made a post advocating for less bans in this thread, where I used some calcs involving an already set-up ape vs Moltres and Zapdos, without tera, to show that it currently has more answers than it had before the DLCs came out.
ironically enough, I think neither Miraidon or Koraidon have ever been healthy for the Ubers tier, so there's that.
at least in Koraidon's defense, it gets hard walled by a freaking Dachsbun, I guess.
To be sort of fair, Srn does identify that as a hot take, and Finchinator replies with contrasting logic immediately afterwards. And the logic there seems to be less about keeping Great Tusk good and more that it's undercutting the already-lacking Hazard removal of the tier on top of the RNG issue raised.
On the greater topic, I understand wanting to retest some banned Pokemon, but simultaneously I just don't think there are any Pokemon that (on paper) would have a fruitful discussion for Suspecting down, given Palafin didn't fare too well and was the least egregious (barring the two cited for TB usage). Part of THAT in turn is because several of them just feel very "linear" to me: Annihilape always has the same end game goal of finding a Bulk Up chance and RF to win; Baxcalibur is Snow and Snow Accessories to Murder; a lot of them don't really have room to innovate, they simply do one (or more in Gouging Fire's Case) thing(s) stupid effectively at a level OU can't keep up with. This compared to Kyurem who, while controversial, does at least have answers to each of its sets rather than plowing through 80% of the tier with 1 and using the other specifically to surprise those who over prepare for that first.
Shifting away from this topic, how do yall feel about Enamorus? It once again remains in OU with a relatively low usage stat, and I don’t really see anyone talk about it.
Enamorus always feels like what I know as a "Spice" pick, in that it's not particularly common enough that you will prepare specifically for it, and usually you'll have it soft-checked just by building well normally, but if you end up weak to it (whether in teambuilding or a match in progress), you will REALLY feel it there.
It's hard to get discussion on because at a glance, I don't feel like there's a great deal of versatility to its kit. This doesn't mean it's unviable, but there's not a lot to do with it that isn't already dug into and known, so talk mostly pops up if the Meta shifts in a favorable way (Webs help with its speed while floating itself) or someone simply wants to try it out (be it asking for tips or finding success with it to share). Enamorus is sort of a 2-3 trick pony and its viability hinges on how effective any of those tricks are at a given time.
the coolest thing I've seen involving that mon was having it with room service on a trick room team. hopping in on the last turn of TR to get that +1 speed, then proceed to sweep with superpower spam. it's a cool mon, she's also a good answer to Kingambit, if Tera has been exhausted already.
Enamorus always feels like what I know as a "Spice" pick, in that it's not particularly common enough that you will prepare specifically for it, and usually you'll have it soft-checked just by building well normally, but if you end up weak to it (whether in teambuilding or a match in progress), you will REALLY feel it there.
It's hard to get discussion on because at a glance, I don't feel like there's a great deal of versatility to its kit. This doesn't mean it's unviable, but there's not a lot to do with it that isn't already dug into and known, so talk mostly pops up if the Meta shifts in a favorable way (Webs help with its speed while floating itself) or someone simply wants to try it out (be it asking for tips or finding success with it to share). Enamorus is sort of a 2-3 trick pony and its viability hinges on how effective any of those tricks are at a given time.
I think that's a great way to describe Enamorus. One of those "Hey, I wonder if this thing's good" turned "Yeah. That was a good idea" pokemon. You love to see it
On the greater topic, I understand wanting to retest some banned Pokemon, but simultaneously I just don't think there are any Pokemon that (on paper) would have a fruitful discussion for Suspecting down, given Palafin didn't fare too well and was the least egregious
which, again, I reiterate that suspect testing *just* Palafin, while already a good step forward with the suspect testing, is not the same thing as suspect testing Palafin alongside other mons that got quickbanned pre-DLC.
(and dear mod, stop deleting my comments just because you're salty that I brought up the fact that this tier IS too ban-heavy and that post mentioned Annihilape. I was told this is the place to discuss that topic, so I'm here. point me to a more appropriate thread to discuss the topic if you're unhappy about it. and the DLC's been out for 16 months and 13 months respectively. since then, there was exactly ONE suspect test on a pre-dlc quickban. and there are 14 mons that got banned since the first DLC came out, and 2 that have been banned and later unbanned. one of which got banned again and unbanned due to cheated votes, which indicates a bigger problem.)
Kingambit's gameplan is: chip down the enemy team, sac enough mons, spam sucker punch.
which is just as simple, if not more. there are answers to the mon. gambit has a 4x weakness, which, admittedly ape doesn't, both are weak to burn. and depending on tera, those are non-issues.
weather wars are always annoying, yes. agreed. but on the flip side, it made weather teams a bit more interesting into the tier, mainly rain, since Baxcalibur was very happy to take a fire-type attack.
which, again, I reiterate that suspect testing *just* Palafin, while already a good step forward with the suspect testing, is not the same thing as suspect testing Palafin alongside other mons that got quickbanned pre-DLC.
(and dear mod, stop deleting my comments just because you're salty that I brought up the fact that this tier IS too ban-heavy and that post mentioned Annihilape. I was told this is the place to discuss that topic, so I'm here. point me to a more appropriate thread to discuss the topic if you're unhappy about it. and the DLC's been out for 16 months and 13 months respectively. since then, there was exactly ONE suspect test on a pre-dlc quickban. and there are 7 mons that got banned since the first DLC came out, and 2 that have been banned and later unbanned. one of which got banned again and unbanned due to cheated votes, which indicates a bigger problem.)
The place to discuss dropping Ubers is during the survey. If it gets enough support, then its worth talking about. Claiming this tier is too ban-heavy is ridiculous when almost every single ban done in this tier either had the support of the people through a suspect test or scored high enough on a survey to warrant a quickban. Furthermore, none of them have been remotely high enough on a subsequent survey to justify a re-test, other than during DLC shifts (which we are no longer in) and during the Likeshop suspect, which resulted in an overwhelming rejection of Palafin. There is no support for unbanning Ubers, not without significant metagame shifts such as a Tera Blast ban, and even then, it would not be towards Pokemon like Annihilape or Baxcalibur, but instead lower tier threats like Volcarona and Regileki.
Kingambit's gameplan is: chip down the enemy team, sac enough mons, spam sucker punch.
which is just as simple, if not more. there are answers to the mon. gambit has a 4x weakness, which, admittedly ape doesn't, both are weak to burn. and depending on tera, those are non-issues.
The comparison between Kingambit and Annihilape is ridiculous, but I'll tackle it anyways. Kingambit is much easier to stop for Balance and Stall teams, since you can reliably count on checks like Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Moltres, Corviknight, Landorus-Therian, etc, to at least pressure Kingambit and force out a Tera, if not cripple them entirely. Tera Fire variants keep their weakness to Ground-type attacks, Tera Ghost variants lose their precious Dark-type resistance, so on, so forth. This doesn't even touch on the offensive ways to handle Kingambit through Encore users like Ogerpon-Wellspring or Iron Valiant, and even just natural Dark resists like its fellow Dark-types Darkrai and Roaring Moon. Most well-built teams will always have at least 2-3 ways of handling Kingambit, and while it certainly can find its way through weakened teams, it's not a metagame breaking threat in any sense, and certainly not on the level of Annihilape.
Annihilape, in the other hand, does not have these weaknesses anywhere near the same degree. It has no resists in the tier: the combo of Ghost and Fighting ensures its only true resist is Normal Ghost, and we aren't in Home metagame anymore where Hisuian Zoroak was usable. Furthermore, Bulk Up Taunt sets completely shut down almost all defensive counterplay, removing any hope of recovery or Status effects from bulkier Pokemon. It feasts upon Zamazenta and Landorus-Therian, two of the most popular Physical checks, and can Rest off any status effects it can catch while switching in. Furthermore, it also does not have to wait for its team to stop dropping in order to gain strength like Kingambit: it can come in at any time and start gaining Rage Fist boosts and threatning to break your team in two. Annihilape devastates most balance teams and all stall teams, plain and simple. While there may be ways to handle it in Bulky Offense and Hyper Offense, this unhealthy presence in the tier is not wanted by most, and thus it has never gained any notable traction to be unbanned.
weather wars are always annoying, yes. agreed. but on the flip side, it made weather teams a bit more interesting into the tier, mainly rain, since Baxcalibur was very happy to take a fire-type attack.
We do not tier to save Weather teams, or else Archaludon would still be in this tier. Baxcalibur was a nightmare to handle in the tier and has also not gained any notable traction to be unbanned, and I doubt ever will this generation, unless for some reason we ban Alolan Ninetales in the future.
This discussion has gone on for far longer than it should have, so it is ending here. This thread is for OU metagame discussion, not talking about an Ubers threat with zero support for its re-suspect into the tier. The place to bring up this topic is during surveys, and if it gets enough support there, you can bring it up back there. But considering Annihilape received only one mention last survey, and Baxcalibur none, I doubt this will happen soon.
just to clarify: I had to edit multiple times cause I remembered 7 post-DLC bans off the top of my head, then went to the tiering action list of posts and counted them all, which resulted into the original post being edited to correct it to 16, 2 of which got later unbanned. that is a lot of bans, and a single re-test being done is not a lot. it's an average of 1 new ban per month since the first DLC came out, including Gliscor and Kyurem that are no longer banned. and both are filling important roles in the tier. gliscor as a defensive mon that can set hazards, absorb a knock off (after Toxic Orb's activation) and Kyurem being a solid answer to stall teams, which surely can get a bit out of control with snow from chilly reception giving it that effective +1Def while setting up (if physical), or straight up enabling blizzard spam from specs.
And since you've mentioned it: I honestly prefer the idea of banning tera blast and releasing the aforementioned "lower tier threats" that were mostly banned because of how they abused the move. I personally dislike how much a properly timed tera can swing a match, but it still fulfills the role of keeping the meta interesting.
Additionally (and I've mentioned that in the original post that led to this discussion), considering Stored Power is the sole reason why Espathra is banned, and the major reason why Magearna (which, admittedly is another really strong mon) got banned, and caused Latias to be banned from UU, (which I KNOW THIS IS NOT AN UU THREAD, I'M JUST MENTIONING IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT) I believe would be another healthy change for the tier. the downside is that the 6 mons that learn it still in OU wouldn't be able to run it. not that these mons were using stored power sets anyways. and I haven't seen any discussions around this topic either.
I've only mentioned that as one "positive" impact that specific mon had in the tier. archetype diversity usually means healthier metagame.
if you don't mind me changing the quote to
some people may have an impression that certain mons got elected to be "the face of OU" and that tiering is done to make sure those mons don't fall off. (again, I'm alluding to Srn's "hot take" on Great Tusk in the other thread, which is extremely valid.)
I do find it particularly interesting that Garchomp, who's another mon that fills the role of a hazard setter and can run both bulky and offensive sets, similar to Great Tusk, got banned from UU (again, I know this is not an UU thread) due to its overwhelming build diversity, while the same argument being made for Tusk doesn't apply. I know the tiering teams have different philosophies when it comes to balancing, and that's the reason why certain mons are banned from lower tiers while not being played enough to be in OU.
and I love when a mon that's in a way lower tier suddenly jumps to from OU because of some meta development making that mon viable in a certain team archetype.
just to be a bit ridiculous here, if Koraidon was suddenly unbanned, Dachsbun would suddenly become a viable OU mon since it completely walls the current strongest mon in the Ubers tier and *can* OHKO it with just 8attack IVs.
and no, I'm not saying Koraidon would be healthy in OU. just mentioning this is extremely amusing.
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Dachsbun: 96-114 (30.2 - 35.9%) -- 40% chance to 3HKO
vs
8 Atk Dachsbun Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 292-348 (85.6 - 102%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Dachsbun Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
as I've previously stated, the original point on mentioning the ape was just as an example of how a mon that is extremely strong now has a few more answers than back when it was originally banned from the tier.
what I am advocating for: more suspect tests in the tier, not specifically for a certain mon to be unbanned.
the goal was not discussing the ape, but rather the lack of suspect testing to unban pre-DLC bans. and that just suspect testing one threat at a time may have a different impact than suspect testing a different batch of mons.
furthermore, there is currently an ongoing conversation about banning Pecharunt, that basically has to pick between 6 usable moves at most. realistically 5 given that Shadow Ball is only better than Hex when you can't poison the opposing mon (which, 12 out of the 39 current OU mons are immune to).
Pecharunt's honestly a healthy presence in the tier, even though with enough hax it beats mons it probably shouldn't beat in the first place.
just to clarify: I had to edit multiple times cause I remembered 7 post-DLC bans off the top of my head, then went to the tiering action list of posts and counted them all, which resulted into the original post being edited to correct it to 16, 2 of which got later unbanned. that is a lot of bans, and a single re-test being done is not a lot. it's an average of 1 new ban per month since the first DLC came out, including Gliscor and Kyurem that are no longer banned. and both are filling important roles in the tier. gliscor as a defensive mon that can set hazards, absorb a knock off (after Toxic Orb's activation) and Kyurem being a solid answer to stall teams, which surely can get a bit out of control with snow from chilly reception giving it that effective +1Def while setting up (if physical), or straight up enabling blizzard spam from specs.
And since you've mentioned it: I honestly prefer the idea of banning tera blast and releasing the aforementioned "lower tier threats" that were mostly banned because of how they abused the move. I personally dislike how much a properly timed tera can swing a match, but it still fulfills the role of keeping the meta interesting.
Additionally (and I've mentioned that in the original post that led to this discussion), considering Stored Power is the sole reason why Espathra is banned, and the major reason why Magearna (which, admittedly is another really strong mon) got banned, and caused Latias to be banned from UU, (which I KNOW THIS IS NOT AN UU THREAD, I'M JUST MENTIONING IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT) I believe would be another healthy change for the tier. the downside is that the 6 mons that learn it still in OU wouldn't be able to run it. not that these mons were using stored power sets anyways. and I haven't seen any discussions around this topic either.
I've only mentioned that as one "positive" impact that specific mon had in the tier. archetype diversity usually means healthier metagame.
if you don't mind me changing the quote to
some people may have an impression that certain mons got elected to be "the face of OU" and that tiering is done to make sure those mons don't fall off. (again, I'm alluding to Srn's "hot take" on Great Tusk in the other thread, which is extremely valid.)
I do find it particularly interesting that Garchomp, who's another mon that fills the role of a hazard setter and can run both bulky and offensive sets, similar to Great Tusk, got banned from UU (again, I know this is not an UU thread) due to its overwhelming build diversity, while the same argument being made for Tusk doesn't apply. I know the tiering teams have different philosophies when it comes to balancing, and that's the reason why certain mons are banned from lower tiers while not being played enough to be in OU.
and I love when a mon that's in a way lower tier suddenly jumps to from OU because of some meta development making that mon viable in a certain team archetype.
just to be a bit ridiculous here, if Koraidon was suddenly unbanned, Dachsbun would suddenly become a viable OU mon since it completely walls the current strongest mon in the Ubers tier and *can* OHKO it with just 8attack IVs.
and no, I'm not saying Koraidon would be healthy in OU. just mentioning this is extremely amusing.
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Dachsbun: 96-114 (30.2 - 35.9%) -- 40% chance to 3HKO
vs
8 Atk Dachsbun Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 292-348 (85.6 - 102%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Dachsbun Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
as I've previously stated, the original point on mentioning the ape was just as an example of how a mon that is extremely strong now has a few more answers than back when it was originally banned from the tier.
what I am advocating for: more suspect tests in the tier, not specifically for a certain mon to be unbanned.
the goal was not discussing the ape, but rather the lack of suspect testing to unban pre-DLC bans. and that just suspect testing one threat at a time may have a different impact than suspect testing a different batch of mons.
furthermore, there is currently an ongoing conversation about banning Pecharunt, that basically has to pick between 6 usable moves at most. realistically 5 given that Shadow Ball is only better than Hex when you can't poison the opposing mon (which, 12 out of the 39 current OU mons are immune to).
Pecharunt's honestly a healthy presence in the tier, even though with enough hax it beats mons it probably shouldn't beat in the first place.
Ignoring how these suggestions all flagrantly ignore or oppose tiering policy, this is once again, not the thread for this. If you want to suggest a change in how OU runs their suspect tests, go to Policy Review. If you want to push for a move ban, write it in on the survey. This thread is for discussing the current OU metagame, and any more posts continuing this Ubers/Broken checks Broken detour will be deleted.
Steering the discussion back, Garchomp saw a surprising rise in usage last month, breaking the usage threshold into proper OU-status once more. Have any of you tried it? Do you think it's a passing fad, or does Garchomp finally have a chance to reclaim its old throne?
which, again, I reiterate that suspect testing *just* Palafin, while already a good step forward with the suspect testing, is not the same thing as suspect testing Palafin alongside other mons that got quickbanned pre-DLC.
the DLC's been out for 16 months and 13 months respectively. since then, there was exactly ONE suspect test on a pre-dlc quickban. and there are 14 mons that got banned since the first DLC came out, and 2 that have been banned and later unbanned. one of which got banned again and unbanned due to cheated votes, which indicates a bigger problem.)
Suspects are supposed to test a pokemon in the CURRENT metagame, whether testing to ban or to unban. In either case, testing multiple pokemon at once instead of one at a time just upends that current metagame and doesn't give an accurate representation of a single suspect target's impact is, and muddies the process.
Second point... so? The support for unbans isn't there and rightly so. Palafin was the least egregious pokemon to retest and it still was pretty comfortably kept locked up after that. Why do you even care about the quantity of bans instead of something more important, like... the quality of the tier? Ultimately we want a competitive and overall enjoyable game, and bans are part of the process to reaching that point. How many it takes shouldn't be something to focus on. Also, no one is tiering to "ensure certain mons don't fall off".
Steering the discussion back, Garchomp saw a surprising rise in usage last month, breaking the usage threshold into proper OU-status once more. Have any of you tried it? Do you think it's a passing fad, or does Garchomp finally have a chance to reclaim its old throne?
I've been taking a break from playing for a bit but I've been watching SPL and some ladder and... I dunno I just haven't really been impressed by what Chomp can do. Yeah it can do stuff, but not particularly in a world beating way and when the ground type competition is so, so stringent, I struggle to think of anything it does over other grounds (especially right now when Ting-Lu is a top 3 mon at worst and does hazard setting better in most cases). So to answer, I feel like it's a very specific mon choice that isn't bad, but I really don't expect this weird usage rise to last an even if it somehow rose to OU proper, I don't think it'll be anything more than "niche/specific" to build with.
and the DLC's been out for 16 months and 13 months respectively. since then, there was exactly ONE suspect test on a pre-dlc quickban. and there are 14 mons that got banned since the first DLC came out, and 2 that have been banned and later unbanned. one of which got banned again and unbanned due to cheated votes, which indicates a bigger problem.)
why does any of that matter? are we supposed to be tiering according to some arbitrary quota? are we supposed to go "welp, it's been x number of months, time to test something that nobody asked to be tested"? are we supposed to just stop tiering after we hit a certain number of bans? what sort of metrics are you proposing that we use to determine when a tier is "too ban-heavy"? why is this more important than the actual quality of the meta itself? why are you even bringing this up in the meta discussion thread instead of discussing the meta?
Steering the discussion back, Garchomp saw a surprising rise in usage last month, breaking the usage threshold into proper OU-status once more. Have any of you tried it? Do you think it's a passing fad, or does Garchomp finally have a chance to reclaim its old throne?
i dunno about chomp. my gut says this is probably a flash-in-the-pan moment that was spurred on by the sort-of-rediscovery of loaded dice, which increased from 27% usage on chomp in december to 43% in january, but i haven't seen enough of it to really be certain. from what i have seen, it's heavily outclassed as a hazard setter by ting, it competes for teamspace with lando-t a bit too often and loses out most of the time on that front, and it feels like almost any offensive role it can play is filled better by like five or six other grounds and three other tera grounds. i hate to be a garchomp doubter but i think this will probably fade over time as the meta shifts
Great Tusk @ Eject Pack
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Headlong Rush
Rapid Spin
Taunt
Temper Flare
need to ask chat if I'm cooking w this or I burned down the kitchen, saw some talk about Taunt earlier in the thread and I'm wondering if Ice Spinner can be dropped for it
