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I feel like in this metagame (more than most others) an individual player's idea of what's "broken" varies a LOT more based on things like how they play and teambuild.
idc what the "qualified" "players" say banning tera blast instantly fixes every issue with the metagame. volcarona is balanced without tera blast and gives good tools to every playstyle while generally being a fun pokemon, regieleki without tera blast is a cool building tool that has great potential but is difficult to fit, etc.
I would like to see a TB-less meta but I just wanna talk about this point bc Volc has been contentious in literally every generation. It was doing the same thing as with Tera Blast but with the (albeit weaker but still QD boosted) Hidden Power - flipping the script on what could be a positive matchup for the opponent on paper to getting hit with a random Hidden Power that you couldn't even know which type you got hit by. Obviously, it's more than likely Volcarona would be unbanned without TB, but I don't think balanced would be an accurate statement - just less overwhelming.
Much like the Doomsday Clock moving to 89 seconds before midnight, I think this metagame will eventually fall apart in terms of on ladder as we move closer to the end of the generation. While it may mature like SS, in the sense that tournaments are strong in player pool and the metagame is regarded as skill-expressive, I have low hopes for anything but the tournaments scene (and even a reduced one, seeing as there are tourney players dissatisfied with the metagame) surviving until Generation 10. I know this is doomerism, but it is just what I see occurring in the future.
I think once people get bored we might see something like a tera suspect happen, as I don't see it as something that is impossible especially going into the later half of the gen when people will start to get burnt out and realizing removing tera could genuinely fix a ton of problems and bring a ton of mons back down to being reasonable
idc what the "qualified" "players" say banning tera blast instantly fixes every issue with the metagame. volcarona is balanced without tera blast and gives good tools to every playstyle while generally being a fun pokemon, regieleki without tera blast is a cool building tool that has great potential but is difficult to fit, etc.
I would like to see a TB-less meta but I just wanna talk about this point bc Volc has been contentious in literally every generation. It was doing the same thing as with Tera Blast but with the (albeit weaker but still QD boosted) Hidden Power - flipping the script on what could be a positive matchup for the opponent on paper to getting hit with a random Hidden Power that you couldn't even know which type you got hit by. Obviously, it's more than likely Volcarona would be unbanned without TB, but I don't think balanced would be an accurate statement - just less overwhelming.
so? hidden power doesn't exist in gen 9. if getting random coverage to blast past its checks is what breaks it, then it'd be balanced without tb in this gen.
ngl that's just a skill issue. if your only out to a sweeper is hoping they don't tera defensively, then either you misplayed or your team just has a horrible matchup into said sweeper. if the sweeper does that without either of those factors, the sweeper itself is the problem. I think tera itself is a net neutral to the metagame, as you can usually answer a tera with your own, but tera blast is unhealthy in that mons can just get whatever coverage they want. your defensive check that can take any move from a mon shouldn't be able to just be blown up, because a defensive check being your only check to a sweeper is much more reliable than an offensive check being your only check. idk maybe I'm just yapping.
ngl that's just a skill issue. if your only out to a sweeper is hoping they don't tera defensively, then either you misplayed or your team just has a horrible matchup into said sweeper. if the sweeper does that without either of those factors, the sweeper itself is the problem. I think tera itself is a net neutral to the metagame, as you can usually answer a tera with your own, but tera blast is unhealthy in that mons can just get whatever coverage they want. your defensive check that can take any move from a mon shouldn't be able to just be blown up, because a defensive check being your only check to a sweeper is much more reliable than an offensive check being your only check. idk maybe I'm just yapping.
Yeah I get that but it doesn’t make it any less fun to play against. Maybe I’m just old school but I miss when checks and counters were actually checks and counters. And if you found a way to get around a counter, you had to sacrifice something to do it. Remember when people were running natural gift grass on talonflame? Much more satisfying than just clicking the big glowing button and now you counter your counter.
I’m not qualified to speak on whether it’s actually a good competitive mechanic because I’m a mid ladder player at best. But it feels so not fun to play against to me.
Yeah I get that but it doesn’t make it any less fun to play against. Maybe I’m just old school but I miss when checks and counters were actually checks and counters. And if you found a way to get around a counter, you had to sacrifice something to do it. Remember when people were running natural gift grass on talonflame? Much more satisfying than just clicking the big glowing button and now you counter your counter.
I’m not qualified to speak on whether it’s actually a good competitive mechanic because I’m a mid ladder player at best. But it feels so not fun to play against to me.
Yeah I get that but it doesn’t make it any less fun to play against. Maybe I’m just old school but I miss when checks and counters were actually checks and counters. And if you found a way to get around a counter, you had to sacrifice something to do it. Remember when people were running natural gift grass on talonflame? Much more satisfying than just clicking the big glowing button and now you counter your counter.
I’m not qualified to speak on whether it’s actually a good competitive mechanic because I’m a mid ladder player at best. But it feels so not fun to play against to me.
idk if this helps but a helpful mindset for looking at Tera is that it's a one time opportunity to break through (or wall) a check. Late game Kingambit with Tera is allowed to ignore a single check of yours, so you should be playing with this in mind. Under this mindset, clicking Close Combat into an unrevealed Tera Gambit is an awful play. Ghost, Fairy, and Flying are all common Tera types that resist Fighting and clearly the Gambit is not going to let you CC it if it has Tera still. If for example you have a Valiant up against it, you could Moonblast instead for the sure chip since only Tera Fire Gambit punishes this play. If you're in the situation where you have only a Fighting typr vs Tera Gambit, it feels like you got cheesed if it Tera Ghosts but actually they had more resources than you. You also had a Tera. They simply put the game into a position where their Tera wins them the game, or in other words, into an endgame where they have more resources than you, which is a skill.
Of course your opinion is valid if this isn't the kinda gameplay you enjoy, that's totally fair.
If I recall JackRG is planning on making an RMT with a team he had a lot of success with. I’ve tried it myself on high ladder and it’s actually quite good. I’ll leave sharing it sooner than he plans to his discretion.
Has any Entei teams been posted yet? I played around with a CB set some months back and felt like it had serious potential but never got to build around the thing
Jack’s team (or at least an earlier version of it) is the first team Pokeaimmd battles against in their specs iron moth video. You can get the mons and a lot of the sets there.
Edit: I take that back. Jack said it isn't actually the latest version Rekka's Backend
Jack’s team (or at least an earlier version of it) is the first team Pokeaimmd battles against in their specs iron moth video. You can get the mons and a lot of the sets there.
Its almost time for the January usage stats, what are your predictions?
I've noticed that for some reason, theres a lot of psyspam on high ladder, so i wonder if indeedee will have an abnormally high usage rate for the 1825+ stats.
Its almost time for the January usage stats, what are your predictions?
I've noticed that for some reason, theres a lot of psyspam on high ladder, so i wonder if indeedee will have an abnormally high usage rate for the 1825+ stats.
every day lokix patiently waits for tier shifts so it can victimize the new uu mons...
anyways i have a sneaking suspicion araq is going further up than it was previously since webs is kinda this cool new trend. I've had a lot of fun with webs teams and i feel like webs makes it 10x easier to actually use ghold (i like my mons hitting first and ghold is just barely too slow to do that to most mons. idk ghold just feels awkward to me.)
everyone wants to play webs especially when the webs setter isnt complete and utter dead weight into everything else than clicking one or two buttons and keeling over on the spot (bum ass r*bombee)
Step three: Laugh as your opponent can't lead Araquanid.
What makes this a really fun matchup is that Araquanid doesn't OHKO Maushold, leaving Araquanid in a losing matchup. If it doesn't use defensive tera, it dies to Population Bomb, and if it does and attacks, Maushold can click Encore and sacrifice itself to keep webs off. Who wants a free Wellspring SD versus a team style that's usually built without much speed? If Araquanid clicks Sticky Web, Maushold can Tidy Up on its second turn instead, and the attack boost means that Sticky Web's higher PP doesn't matter.
Araquanid does avoid dying to +6 Bite unless Maushold clicks Tera Dark, but triggering the Custap is good enough. Take the attack, Tidy Up again to clear webs, and leave a crippled entry hazard setter. If you get attacked, just Encore the attack and you're once again sacrificing yourself for the enemy tera and keeping Sticky Webs off the field, which is a good trade.
On general Maushold notes, try using it as primarily an offensive mon, with the ability to clear hazards a bonus. There's a lot that gets outsped and OHKO'd by Population Bomb (uninvested Kyurem takes at least 99.3%, for example), and between Tidy Up and a fast Encore, Maushold isn't going to find itself deadweight very often.
Sub-Tect Kyurem? Encore. Last-mon Kingambit? Force it to use Sucker Punch with another mon, then Encore. Wellspring? Outsped and killed. Alomomola? Guaranteed 2HKO from Population Bomb, so it needs Rocky Helmet, and sets without it (either a different item, or due to Knock Off) can't switch in. Dondozo? Counting the miss chance, it's almost exactly a coinflip to die to two Population Bombs, meaning it's a risky switch in.
The ghosts? If you get the read right and Tidy Up on the switch, +1 Tera Dark Bite is an OHKO on offensive Gholdengo, a 2HKO on bulky Ghold (but survives 0 Spa Make It Rain before hazards, so there's a chance), an OHKO on Dragapult, a 2HKO on Pecharunt, even a 2HKO on specially defensive Skeledirge. The only ghost that really answers Maushold is Sinistcha, who can Strength Sap to force out the mice, but Sinistcha has mostly fallen off.
Maushold remains fragile as all hell, but as a revenge killer that doesn't matter so much. Keep it away from Flame Body or Rocky Helmet and it'll put in work.
on a similar trend of shitmons that aren't used enough, I've been really impressed by H Lilligant. Life Orb Encore 3 attack has been putting loads of work in for me at the 1600s (tldr I'm ass not Lilligant lol). It's massive speed with Chlorophyll lets it go Adamant and still outrun the entire +1 metagame. It's frankly amazing speed control for Sun teams which otherwise have to rely on Speed booster Band Moon (waste of a Moon imo) for real speed or Wake and Venusaur for okayish speed. Even its typing is great for it speed control role, resisting all of Sucker, Thunderclap, Jet, and Glide. Personally I like Tera Ghost to also own Dragonite that think they can OHKO you with +1 ESpeed (they can).
Speed isn't the only thing Lilligant has going for it though. CC Solar Blade Triple Axel is really nice high base power coverage that can be boosted further by Life Orb given how frail Lilli is anyways. Your opponent better have either one of Moltres, Ghold, or Pecha or amazing predictions because everything else gets hit pretty hard (if they do have a Moltres you might as well just resign yourself to the fact that Lilligant will not click a single button ever). Solar Blade is a silly move which is both thankfully and unfortunately limited by Sun. It does like 35-40 to +1 IDBP Zama which you can further embarrass by clicking Tera Ghost.
Hopefully this can convince more Ninetales girlies to use Lilligant, it's a really nice revenger/breaker/cleaner that brings some nice utility to Sun teams. As long as you don't throw it into a Tusk Ice Spinner for no reason, it'll probably put in work in every game. Best Chlorophyll user, it does not deserve to be ranked lower than shit Venusaur. Sun RMT with neat techs incoming at some point when I can claim a higher peak than 1640 lol. shout-out to that one person that brought sand and made me very sad when I couldn't ever click Solar Blade.
on a similar trend of shitmons that aren't used enough, I've been really impressed by H Lilligant. Life Orb Encore 3 attack has been putting loads of work in for me at the 1600s (tldr I'm ass not Lilligant lol). It's massive speed with Chlorophyll lets it go Adamant and still outrun the entire +1 metagame. It's frankly amazing speed control for Sun teams which otherwise have to rely on Speed booster Band Moon (waste of a Moon imo) for real speed or Wake and Venusaur for okayish speed. Even its typing is great for it speed control role, resisting all of Sucker, Thunderclap, Jet, and Glide. Personally I like Tera Ghost to also own Dragonite that think they can OHKO you with +1 ESpeed (they can).
Speed isn't the only thing Lilligant has going for it though. CC Solar Blade Triple Axel is really nice high base power coverage that can be boosted further by Life Orb given how frail Lilli is anyways. Your opponent better have either one of Moltres, Ghold, or Pecha or amazing predictions because everything else gets hit pretty hard (if they do have a Moltres you might as well just resign yourself to the fact that Lilligant will not click a single button ever). Solar Blade is a silly move which is both thankfully and unfortunately limited by Sun. It does like 35-40 to +1 IDBP Zama which you can further embarrass by clicking Tera Ghost.
Hopefully this can convince more Ninetales girlies to use Lilligant, it's a really nice revenger/breaker/cleaner that brings some nice utility to Sun teams. As long as you don't throw it into a Tusk Ice Spinner for no reason, it'll probably put in work in every game. Best Chlorophyll user, it does not deserve to be ranked lower than shit Venusaur. Sun RMT with neat techs incoming at some point when I can claim a higher peak than 1640 lol. shout-out to that one person that brought sand and made me very sad when I couldn't ever click Solar Blade.
The correct Lilligant set will always be CC Solar Blade Triple Axel Tera Blast with Tera Fire Adamant Life Orb. The receipt from the great Pinkacross below for proof (and I'll PM you the team). I'm looking forward to you topping 1800 with your sun build :).
Originally, I wanted to start a whole thread with this post, but I was asked to post this in here instead.
Firstly, I want to preface this by stating that I do acknowledge that the power level in Gen9 is the highest it's ever been, and that bans are a way to combat the power creep of the metagame. I just want to maybe discuss some aspects of how this tool has been used during gen9.
(and yes, the title is a bit on the clickbait side.)
During the early days of the metagame, some threats that are now banned, such as Annihilape, Palafin, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Espathra, Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane were indeed centralizing the whole meta, as once those mons got going, the game was as good as over.
However, the game has evolved over the now over 2 years it's been out. there were 2 DLCs that brought some answers to some of the mons that got banned before the DLC, however, the suspect tests were far and few since then.
Palafin was somewhat recently tested in OU, which led to it being banned once again.
I personally like the initiative of letting certain mons be suspect tested, if a thread asking for the suspect test reaches enough votes.
That, however, only allows for one specific mon to be tested at a time, which doesn't reflect the environment of a more generalized unban situation, which I personally believe would be a more interesting approach to the situation.
Using the Palafin suspect test as an example, I believe the votes would have been different if it was tested in an environment where other, currently banned threats, were also being tested.
Volcarona would be an interesting matchup, since a tera grass set would be a better answer, while it was the tera ground set that led to its ban.
Tera water Annihilape is also a good answer to Palafin, which now also has more answers than before, as the physically defensive Kanto birds that became popular in OU both can survive up to a +3 150bp rage fist from the ape, and have different answers to it. Moltres being able to burn and phase it out, or Zapdos having the ability to paralyze and even threaten a 2HKO with hurricane. (yes, Annihilape is still a very strong mon, I'm not saying it isn't.)
+2 0 Atk Annihilape Rage Fist(200BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 375-442 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+3 0 Atk Annihilape Rage Fist(150BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 364-430 (95 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+3 0 Atk Annihilape Rage Fist(150BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 351-414 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 222-264 (52.7 - 62.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 182-216 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 140-168 (33.2 - 39.9%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 91-108 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO
In other words, and I may be repeating myself, the dynamic of palafin being tested in OU on its own vs. being tested in OU alongside other currently banned mons is a valid thing to look into.
Whenever a strong offensive mon is removed from the tier, not only stall becomes ever so slightly stronger, which let's be honest here: nobody enjoys fighting against stall, but also a power vacuum is created, and now a different mon that used to have a losing matchup against the newly banned mon is even stronger, which eventually may lead to another suspect test banning it. at this point, it's just a matter of time until Raging Bolt, Kingambit, Iron Valiant and Kyurem (without the whole cheating incident) get banned. we got to the point where even Gliscor, that no longer has roost, has been banned before and suspected tested twice right now.
The current gen has many mons that are banned from OU and struggling to find any viable sets in Ubers.
yes. the Ubers UU metagame has been created for that exact reason, but even then, there are some mons that aren't viable even on that.
also, I know some of you are thinking of Solgaleo right now. I personally can see a world where this mon would end up falling into the UUBL tier. I see you, Joey.
And then there's also the Espathra case where, although it is a good mon, with a good ability and good coverage, it probably wouldn't be ban worthy if the move stored power was banned instead.
Understandably Smogon prefers to ban mons that have a strong signature move instead of banning just the move, as they initially did with Houndstone, due to it initially being the only mon able to learn Last Respects (which is currently even banned from the Ubers tier) but that is simply not the case.
arguably, stored power is the reason why Latias is banned from the UU tier, as well as one of the reasons why Magearna (which is undoubtedly a very strong mon) got banned as well.