Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I am going to take a few personal days off from keeping my eyes on this thread/SV OU constantly because I have some important and time consuming IRL stuff going on, but:
  • Kyurem PR thread bumped after survey results here
  • Gave my current thoughts on metagame viability ranks here
  • Go play doomer elsewhere, thx
Ting-Lu in S is such a W, such a good catch all check, hazard whirlwind eq ruination is a classic, but rest talk is especially underrated due to its ability to repeatedly check annoying mons like moth bolt darkrai etc. I seriously hope people aren't serious about banning it because that would be a crushing blow to balance
 
yeah that was jack. cb entei is actually a beast (pun intended) on fat balance/semistall and i'm super hyped for the impending rmt he's doing with it. sacred fire being able to deal out massive damage and spread burns is an incredible boon to bulky structures
I think Entei has always been kind of an underrated Pokémon post-gen 6 because Sacred Fire is an absolutely cracked move. It takes a Pokémon with very “decent but not amazing” damage output and makes it surprisingly hard to switch into because a huge amount of the physically bulky ground type glue Pokémon that you see in every tier which would love to threaten Entei out absolutely hate getting burned, which is a coinflip minus miss% chance to happen on every single switchin to its STAB. Entei’s bulk is also quite strong, so it gets quite a few chances to spread burn throughout the game and can even clean up with Extremespeed in the endgame if need be. It’s a bit too much of a generalist while lacking super strong coverage options to be a top-tier threat, but you can never truly sleep on it, and I think certain structures that benefit from spreading status have a lot to gain from considering Entei.
 
Since Heatran is currently at the lowest point of its history (though I personally still think ita good), using CB Entei (especially in Sun), makes a lot of sense, those burns are annoying and it can also destroy weakened HOs with Extreme Speed, while ignoring Landos (who for me its also at its lowest point outside Oras, but still obviously good) Intimidate. If Heatran becomes common again, unless it uses Balloon (best item for it in my opinion, bulky Heatran is mediocre, offensive is the way to go), one Stomping Tantrum sends it home.
 
Since Heatran is currently at the lowest point of its history (though I personally still think ita good), using CB Entei (especially in Sun), makes a lot of sense, those burns are annoying and it can also destroy weakened HOs with Extreme Speed, while ignoring Landos (who for me its also at its lowest point outside Oras, but still obviously good) Intimidate. If Heatran becomes common again, unless it uses Balloon (best item for it in my opinion, bulky Heatran is mediocre, offensive is the way to go), one Stomping Tantrum sends it home.
tbh i'm not really sure entei is powerful enough to warrant the removal needed to run CB– you need to commit a significant amount of resources vs a ting-lu to keep rocks off, and if you aren't able to your entei's longevity is nonexistant. it could be a strong and cool breaker, i just don't think it's worth playing the hazard game already a mon behind if you can't remove them.
 
tbh i'm not really sure entei is powerful enough to warrant the removal needed to run CB– you need to commit a significant amount of resources vs a ting-lu to keep rocks off, and if you aren't able to your entei's longevity is nonexistant. it could be a strong and cool breaker, i just don't think it's worth playing the hazard game already a mon behind if you can't remove them.

Sure, but think about the following: Most people (70% more or less) see Rock weak Mons (for example Weavile) and assume Boots, playing around that. So, if you manage to handle hazards with the rest of the team (Tusk + Corvi for example, which due to Fraudstcha and Pecharunt stealing some usage from Ghold has become better) , these players often are unable to react to the immediate damage Choiced Rock weak Mon does. You can win many battles not by playing particularly well, but by the opponents playing terribly since they are not used to facing choiced rocks weak Mons.

Also, since you mention Ting Lu, I will mention Corviknight again. If Ting-Lu has Sinistcha or Pecharunt as a Ghost, its pretty useless vs Corv (and Pecharunt without NP cant break Corv either). If Ting Lu goes with Ghold, then Corvi is the useless one, but guess what type is Ghold weak to and Entei has.
 
Actual question for once: Why do Lando and Treads run special sets even though they are very clearly physical attackers? Just to avoid triggering Toxic Debris?

special iron treads occasionally sees use as a dedicated lead since it can actually threaten great tusk while keeping up hazards. it's not always optimal but it's an important niche and makes it a more effective role compression mon on offense compared to the standard physical attacking set

special landorus-T is generally better as a utility pivot for similar reasons as to iron treads, in addition to being able to check zamazenta
 
i don't think this is the metric we should be using because it has more to do with greninja just being kind of bad. it's got 103 spa, of course it's not gonna be 2hkoing everything straight out the gate with life orb. there's a reason we don't see, say, special life orb dragapult
Honestly that's part of the reason gren is like the one thing that really wants stellar because it can clench an okho and grab the battle bond boost faster.

Battle Bond gren is the best stellar tera user and its not even close
 
Dropping my survey answers here as well:

Enjoyment: 4/10
Competitiveness: 2/10

I overall still somewhat enjoy laddering and I think there it's still enjoyable to stack offensive threats together trying to wear down mutual checks, even by using some funny tera sets or just trying to be more conservative and abusing hazards + phazers like Ting Lu. I do really think that the tier is a mess though, I've always though Tera is incredibly uncompetitive and I think that we have too many mons in the tier that should be Ubers. Even by making correct plays throughout whole games with decent teams, I sometimes end up getting reverse swept by Gambit/Bolt or some teams really just struggle against Tera Setuppers and you often are not able to scout those sets properly, on threats like Dnite, RM and Valiant; making the experience really frustrating and kinda forcing you into running the same type of structures with very strong Prios, hoping the oppo won't have the right tera for them, or running Red Cards and Phazers, hoping to not get OHKO'd by a creative Tera set or even Taunted. I overall still do believe that SV has great qualities, with interesting mons like the booster setuppers, Meowscarada with Flower Trick, Garganacl and Gholdengo having innovative abilities etc, but it's far from being a tier that I would be enjoying playing and I also wouldn't be able to pick one mon to get suspect tested, Kyurem might be the easiest one but it already got suspect tested twice and it survived, but as some people has been pointing out, banning a supposedly oppressive mon like Zamazenta would lead up to mons like Kingambit being even stronger, and banning Kingambit would lead to Gholdengo being stronger, so I really think the solution wouldn't be a single ban but a little banwave.

Kingambit: 5/5
I think that a well-played Kingambit will always able to reverse sweep a game if you get turns right, something that might not happen very often as you still need to get those turns right, but even when you don't you still can comeback a lot of bad situations, and having a mon that is capable of doing so is crazy to me. It could be fine without Tera, but with the access to different viable Tera's like Ghost, Fire, Fairy with Tera Blast, or Dark to boost its damages, it's incredibly hard to play against, especially with Tera Blast Fairy being incredibly hard to scout as you risk it just setupping again on your sack/pivot that is trying to scout, Tera Dark simply killing everything after an SD, and Tera Ghost + Lefties recovering so much HP that it reminds me of SS Heatran, I really fail to understand how people can be fine with this mon in the tier.

Kyurem: 5/5
If Kingambit benefits a lot from Tera, Kyurem manages to abuse it even in a better way. Kyurem already is a great mon able to trade into most of stuff thanks to its bulk and attack, but tera helps DD/Mixed sets even more, with you being able to run different Tera Blast to pick the coverage you like with stuff like Tera Blast Ghost, Fire, Ground, Electric all giving you important tools to break the few mons that can try to stop it. Speaking of scouting tera abusers, this mon is just hard to know what it will run sometimes and giving it a free turn of setup can be deadly; besides the Specs Kyurem structures with a pivot + Glowking, it can often be HDB, AV, SubTect, Mixed, DD + Tera Blast, DD + Mixed are all great sets that will either deal an incredible amount of damage or setup and threatening to win on spot, with some of the more decent checks being Scarf/Balloon Gholdengo and Booster Encore Valiant, as soft checks like Moltres really just risk dying to Rock Slide, or other mons trying to scout a special set like Glowking, risk giving a DD into another DD or just dying to stuff like Tera Blast Ground or Ghost, which also will make them very hard to kill and will most likely force a Tera and most likely still manage to get the second kill anyways.

Ogerpon-W: 5/5
Waterpon is not really a notorious Tera abuser, but it still has all what it needs to be an incredibly centralizing and strong mon in my opinion. Having a 120BP contact-less STAB with no drawbacks that has high crit ratio is just illegal, considering it has a nice bulk being able to take pretty much all x1 hits without any problem, and a very great speed tiers, let alone not having any switch-in cause you are able to Play Rough the Dragons, Knock-Off or U-turn the few viable Grass-types in the tier, while still being able to up Spikes yourself. Besides all of that, it can even setup with Swords Dance and even Trailblaze on some sets, while Tera will give it +1 SpDef to top on it, and if it wasn't enough, it even has a STAB Horn Leech and can opt for reliable recovery in Synthesis in other sets. As if having Horn Leech and Trailblaze wasn't enough to guess in-between, it also has Power Whip which has 144BP + STAB and will just deal incredible damages. It also doesn't fail to procure utility, it has the aforementioned U-Turn and also Taunt + Encore, with Encore being a very important move this gen and Taunt still being able to annoy some defensive mons, deny webs from Araquanid, or not risking setup from mons like Kyurem or Dragonite. I might agree with the thought of it being the less-broken between the choices given here, and if possible I would probably have given it a 4.5, but I definetely think this mon is absurd.

Zamazenta: 5/5
Zamazenta somehow manages to have all the most annoying perks of the 3 above-mentioned mons, being able to reverse-sweep entire endgame, being a very strong Tera Abuser with plenty of viable options, having its decent utility in Roaring out a lot of threats and moreso Booster mons, saving you from getting swept by mons like Dragonite. The Tera pool is usually Dark, Steel, Fire, Stellar, but it can always try to run other Tera's to boost its moves or to help setup against the relatively recent high usage of Pecharunt. It can even run some less-explored options like Howl, or boosting items like Choice Band and LO which is more common on Grassy Terrain, but Muscle Band and Expert Belt have seen usage as well. With IDBP you basically threat 90% of the meta bar the 3-4 Ghost mons that still have to fear Crunch with a great 20% to drop or being able to get boosted with Tera Dark, and if against the other mons you usually can counter-tera, teraing against Zama and becoming vulnerable to Body Press is often a terrible idea. Let alone that Zamazenta can also run stuff like Sub + Tera Steel to annoy BP-resists like Glowking and Gholdengo, while also being able of forcing scenario's to trade said mons just to then reveal Resto+Chesto. Really terrible to face no matter what you run, it always could have that 1 annoying tera and get that 1 timed drop to fuck you up. Very hard to check and ID boosts its defenses while making its STAB stronger, while having basically unlimited Coverage with options like Ice Fang, Heavy Slam/Iron Head, Crunch, Psychic Fangs, Wild Charge. The only positive thing that this mon does is supposedly checking Kingambit, but I really think they both just deserve a ban.

Raging Bolt: 5/5
Malding Bolt is similar to Kingambit, he will get less opportunities to setup and win as it usually runs Booster, but thanks to Booster he also often will only need 1 setup turn, which isn't hard to get on a team with great teammates and thanks to its bulk + typing, the same bulk which will make so that you don't even to risk Thunderclap "5050s" sometimes and is an amazing tool to force trades on offensive teams. Besides being an amazing endgame setup sweeper and a good tool on offensive teams to force progress on mons like Ting-Lu, it also can run sets like Specs or Boots. The higher speed tier and the access to stabs like DMeteor is what makes me not think less of him than a Kingambit. The speedtier means you can comfortably beat Kingambit in a 1v1, and having Draco Meteor and Volt Switch makes Choice Specs incredibly hard to play against as it will always force good progress no matter what. Sets like HDB still hit incredibly hard while keeping the option of having Thunderclap, but it also can run a helpful Taunt, which can be great to avoid recovery of mons like Clodsire, hazards from mons like Ting-Lu, situational occassions like a Moltres trying to Tera + Roar you out, or preventing Glowking from pivotting. Tera's aren't as explored on him as he really only needs to prevent those Ground and Dragon weaknesses usually, so Fairy is the most Popular with Bug, Flying, Ghost, Fire also being fairly common.

Gliscor: 5/5
Gliscor is yet another setupper that can use different tera's and provide different type of utilities. SD sets pretty much cook stall with their best answer being often their own Gliscor, as you can pp-stall Steel Birds and Knock Off Unawares, but also BO and balance teams really struggle with their counterplay to Gliscor, as the ice coverage isn't common and Encore users can slowly waste their pp's. It can run Tera's to boost its attacks like Tera Dark and Normal, but also defensive tera's like Water and Fairy to become incredibly hard to kill, although those are more common on its utility sets. Gliscor is of course a great Knock Off absorber, a status absorber, a great Ground Type and also a strong Ground-Immune mon that isn't much scared of hazards. It can run Spikes, Stealth Rock, even Toxic Spikes and it can also be a great Pivot with u-Turn while offering utility in Toxic and Knock-Off, being able to Toxic stall a lot of mons thanks to Protect + Poison Heal, while also having the possibility to run SubTect + Toxic. In those last months this mon has felt less oppressing as the meta has been more offensive and BO teams have been using Pecharunt which is annoying enough for Gliscor, so in general I believe it's the most fine between the 6 mons, but we must not forget what this mon is capable of doing.

Tera Blast: 1/5
I can understand why people want Tera Blast banned, it gives your opponent the perfect coverage they wish with a whole STAB move, and it makes mons like Kyurem and Valiant even scarier. I don't think it's the major issue here though, I will always be of the opinion that Tera is the bigger issue that allows all of those minor-issues and also I think that if those mons that I voted 5/5 on would get banned, Tera Blast would be left with 2 or 3 abusers, which already have incredible coverage available (see Iron Moth and Iron Valiant) and the major issue being probably Dragonite. But as I believe Tera is the issue, I don't see myself supporting or believing a Tera Blast would solve major issues.

Other mentions:

Tera: As I mentioned a couple of times, I really think Tera is what makes me not like this tier or find it really competitive

Gholdengo: Gholdengo is another incredible threat capable of doing whatever he wants thanks to all the sets he can run with 6-7 viable items and strong moves, with an amazing type and an ability that is incredibly broken.

Pecharunt: I don't believe Pecharunt is banworthy, I specified Poison Puppeteer as that move is pretty much a huge gamble that often ends up changing games 50% of the times, not sure if a complex ban of the move would ever be on the table but I already think the likes of Static and Flame Body are laughable in a competitive environment, let alone this amazing move.

Samurott-Hisui: While not being nearly as strong and popular as the mons in the survey, I think this mon is too underrated as it gets Spikes up while killing Mons and having a great typing that allows it to get a lot of switch-ins and chances in the meta.
 
I've seen a bunch of comments on Ting-Lu write-ins. It honestly surprised me when it topped the write-in section. Most comments on it are along the lines of why ban such a good spdef glue. Personally Ting-Lu has come up when I think through band that could help the meta game, but it never is directly through it as a Pokémon. I have seen a lot of focus on hazards in the past and how they are skewing the tier offensively. So I thought how do we help with hazards. Three options top the list right now.

Gholdengo: This Pokémon blocks every form of removal except Tidy-Up, Court Change, and a couple of Defoggers. This has been a topic of discussion for some time and it seems that most people agree that it wouldn't help as much as one would think.

Samurott-H: This Pokémon is absolutely amazing. Never a slouch and always makes progress, perhaps too much progress. Ceaseless Edge and Sharpness is pretty close to broken. Add Knock Off to the mix and another strong STAB and you are borderline already. Samu is definitely a candidate for a hazard related ban, because of its offensive pressure combined with the ability to set up unblockable spikes at the same time.

Ting-Lu: A legendary tank. This Pokémon lives basically everything ever and is not even close to passive. With Whirlwind, EQ, Ruination, and your hazard of choice, Ting-Lu can sit on almost all of the special attackers and spew damage and hazards. I normally see Ting-Lu as a purely hazard control problem. All of its other traits are quite welcoming in a super offensive meta game, but its ability to set hazards and tank hits and deal consistent damage is definitely a reason to be watched.
 
post from waffle04 in the kyurem retest PR threat
I thought this post had some really good and relevant points to Kyurem and a possible third suspect for it.

Seperately:
To me, I could see the argument for banning Kyurem, but it has never seemed all that banworthy to me. I think its reliance on either boots making it a weaker attacker or a non-boots item making it weak to hazards does make it a lot more difficult to sweep with it. It losing access to roost after gen 8 is also a huge loss for it, as roost would allow it to have a lot more staying power even despite its rocks weakness (see gouging fire).

As for its presence in the metagame, i think kyurem is really good for its ability to damage trade well into ting-lu hstack structures (especially with boots) and counter gliscor and non-play rough wellspring. I think it does keep a lot of defensive mons in check that otherwise would have a lot less counterplay and can fill a role on basically any kind of structure.

this just an opinion and has no basis in policy: but, I also think that suspecting kyurem so soon after already failing to ban it twice does not feel right- i understand that it came up fairly high on the survey, but to me it seems cheap to suspect the same mon that’s already been kept twice.
 
You know, with an Ogerpon-W suspect in the cards, it's a good thing that Palafin didn't end up staying in OU. I just know that if that suspect happened with Palafin still here, there would be a subset of players who would argue, "But we can't ban Ogerpon! We need it to check Palafin!"
Instead, we now have people claiming we need to keep Waterpon around for Alomomola :)

But anyways, Entei is a cool mon, but its always going to be a niche pick. It wants CB to do insane damage to things, but that makes it rocks weak. But if it decides to go boots, then pokemon such as clefable will wall it. But either way, its a cool mon.
 
You know, with an Ogerpon-W suspect in the cards, it's a good thing that Palafin didn't end up staying in OU. I just know that if that suspect happened with Palafin still here, there would be a subset of players who would argue, "But we can't ban Ogerpon! We need it to check Palafin!"
90% of the players who argued to ban Palafin don't want Ogerpon-W gone either way so it is likely it won't be banned still.
 
Much like the Doomsday Clock moving to 89 seconds before midnight, I think this metagame will eventually fall apart in terms of on ladder as we move closer to the end of the generation. While it may mature like SS, in the sense that tournaments are strong in player pool and the metagame is regarded as skill-expressive, I have low hopes for anything but the tournaments scene (and even a reduced one, seeing as there are tourney players dissatisfied with the metagame) surviving until Generation 10. I know this is doomerism, but it is just what I see occurring in the future.
 
Much like the Doomsday Clock moving to 89 seconds before midnight, I think this metagame will eventually fall apart in terms of on ladder as we move closer to the end of the generation. While it may mature like SS, in the sense that tournaments are strong in player pool and the metagame is regarded as skill-expressive, I have low hopes for anything but the tournaments scene (and even a reduced one, seeing as there are tourney players dissatisfied with the metagame) surviving until Generation 10. I know this is doomerism, but it is just what I see occurring in the future.
I'd put so much more faith in that than I do in the doomsday clock itself: absolutely none. At least your prediction is based on trends and what other qualified people are saying, instead of the whims of 4-6 angry old men.
Personally, I think that, barring any big changes, what we have is what we'll get, and while discontent will brew in the background, eventually people will come to (begrudgingly) accept the SV meta for what it is: a faster-paced meta where team composition and their order of use matters more than previous generations. That doesn't mean that stall or other slower styles won't see usage, but it does mean they likely won't ever be as popular as they were in, say, SS OU (can you tell i'm still hung up on the guy who requested a look at SS Toxapex of all things?).
Maybe Kyurem will finally get the ban people clearly want it to get. Maybe the entire upper crust gets shaved off after one or two pressure valves open up and force a chain reaction of bans. Who knows? Not me, that's for sure, but I do know that, barring any real change, things will tend towards medicority, towards a passive, reluctant acceptance.
 
Has any Entei teams been posted yet? I played around with a CB set some months back and felt like it had serious potential but never got to build around the thing
If I recall JackRG is planning on making an RMT with a team he had a lot of success with. I’ve tried it myself on high ladder and it’s actually quite good. I’ll leave sharing it sooner than he plans to his discretion.
 
If I recall JackRG is planning on making an RMT with a team he had a lot of success with. I’ve tried it myself on high ladder and it’s actually quite good. I’ll leave sharing it sooner than he plans to his discretion.
should be getting to it this weekend, I have an important college exam on friday so I need to focus on that first. Get ready tho its gonna be heat.
 
Suspects should not take any external factors into account - anything that gets a high score in a survey should automatically be approved for a suspect regardless of how many times it has been voted down in the past.
i actually think they should take external factors into account. not in the "this got voted down twice so let's not suspect it" way, but in the "we should probably lower the bar for a ban if something's been controversial enough to suspect three separate times" way. weighting things towards the status quo is nice and all, but when people have been consistently dissatisfied with the status quo, we might need to reevaluate what we're doing here
 
i actually think they should take external factors into account. not in the "this got voted down twice so let's not suspect it" way, but in the "we should probably lower the bar for a ban if something's been controversial enough to suspect three separate times" way. weighting things towards the status quo is nice and all, but when people have been consistently dissatisfied with the status quo, we might need to reevaluate what we're doing here
I feel like in this metagame (more than most others) an individual player's idea of what's "broken" varies a LOT more based on things like how they play and teambuild. If you primarily play HO or build your defensive backbones in a way that you can reliably deal with most kyurem sets, you won't find kyurem to be an overbearing force in the metagame. If you're really careful and stringent on keeping your team alive and only save tera for when absolutely necessary, you'll have a far easier time dealing with something like zama than someone who will sacrifice huge game pieces for a seemingly lower tradeoff that adds up in the end.

I feel like i've said the exact same thing a hundred times in this thread (and I definitely have at least 5 times) but there is an issue with the metagame. Lots of things are threatening but no one is able to agree on what that thing is. In my personal opinion, that "thing" is gliscor but I do know how to beat it, it just pisses me off to no end and it genuinely makes the metagame like 10x less enjoyable for me, even less so than gliscor was in previous gens.

also literally every issue in the current metagame could be solved by the existence of ferrothorn but yaint hear it from me...
 
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