Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

:quagchamppogsire: While I think it's gaining some popularity, sub Ogerpon-W is still considered unconventional and can catch some opponents off guard.
:ogerpon-wellspring:
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
- Substitute

:quagchamppogsire:This one is a unconvential lead where instead of puking out spikes before you die (Ting-Lu does that now), you try to leave a dent or even get a kill or two before dying (or even sweep lol).
:ogerpon-cornerstone:
Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Trailblaze
- Encore
I see cornerstone!!! I would recommend knock prob, as without it you crumple to air balloon ghold(plus you can knock off araq custap berry)
 
I know it's been a few weeks since the latest OU Tiering Survey, but I am pretty much not surprised at all by the numbers with how Kyurem had a score far ahead of everything else on the survey by the qualified survey takers, in particular the SPL group. In my experience, Ogerpon-Wellspring is just much easier to account for in teambuilding than Kyurem is given Kyurem's set versatility, what a stupid move Freeze-Dry is since it invalidates a natural typing dynamic, and how Wellspring is item-locked and Tera Type-locked to Water.

I'm confident that an Ogerpon-Wellspring suspect would lead to a result with a DNB verdict that is not particularly close while Kyurem is the only Pokemon currently in SV OU that has anywhere near enough support for a potential ban. As Finchinator noted, in a PR thread, retesting Kyurem after SPL ends has some support with a reason being that it would free up time for many players, so hopefully we get a very high turnout and boot Kyurem's ass out of here after SPL has ended.
 
Best Kyurem answer (all sets)

371 (Zamazenta) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 16 HP / 248 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge

Use on teams with good WispRai switchins, otherwise just go 252 252 Jolly.

edit: or run this epic adamant spread but with tera fire
 
I've been pretty against banning Kyurem for the vast majority of the gen, but honestly I feel like more than anything it's just a nuisance that the tier would be better without & I've really come around on it recently. I feel pretty similarly about Kyurem as I do Archaludon in DOU: its inclusion in the tier brings more harm than its worth, and its niche in the metagame isn't worth its strain on the teambuilder. Its specs sets can blow past the two premier special walls in the tier (Glowking and Ting-Lu), and while SubRoost and Boots 4A do not have the raw breaking power of specs, they make up for it with the longevity they provide into offensive and defensive teams alike. Physical Kyurem is another matter in and of itself, with entirely different counterplay and a lot more sweeping potential. Rather than the immediate wallbreaking power of special Kyu, it trades off longevity for one of the nastiest combos introduced in gen 9: loaded dice scale shot. Kyurem is able to function as both a powerful special wallbreaker and a Baxcaliber LARP viably. This mon is broken. The arguments for banning it back in Gen 8 are almost even more saliant now because its physical and mixed sets are even more viable due to loaded dice and chilly reception.

ban kyurem!
 
personally i prefer knock over temper flare. it's a stronger immediate punish if you predict the balloon ghold switch-in and serves as a generally better click than temper flare if it's non-balloon or something else switches in. temper flare's nice and all, and i especially fw it on sun, but i really like how well knock off can ease the burden of prediction in the tusk-ghold matchup. luv me midgrounds, simple as

My problem with Knock Off is that it can frequently be punished by your opponent just not switching, which creates an ugly 50/50.

If an offensive mon clicks a damage move on you, while you click knock, your tusk is often dead weight now, at less than half and outsped for not much progress. You have to win the predicted switch to land the knock on Gholdengo.

When you have Temper Flare, you can safely click Rapid Spin. If your opponent switches into a Gholdengo, you get a free 150 power worth of progress onto something. If the opponent stays in instead, you can get chunked (like in the knock scenario above), but now hazards are gone, and you outspeed with a big Headlong Rush coming next turn.

Of course, Knock is way more useful against other ghosts, especially Dragapult and Sinischa, but Ice Spinner has basically the same calcs against them anyway. I could see Knock Off helping the Pecharunt matchup, depending on teams and predictions.

Temper Flare also has the added perk of demolishing Corviknight. Especially with Tera Fire (or even sun), Temper Flare can punish ground immunities, not just spinblockers.

Of course Knock Off still does it's thing against defensive teams, I like Temper Flare more, but there is every chance Knock is better. The case I'm trying to make is that I think Temper Flare is better at removing hazards than Knock.
 
Give me your slightly unorthodox moves/sets for common OU mon. I'm talking like Thunderbolt/Flamethrower Dragapult type shit, I need some heat for a team but I am unsure what to fill some slots on it just yet and I want to be inspired. :blobuwu:
garchomp the sequel (Gliscor) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Scale Shot

the kyurems will never see it coming

on a less shitpost-y note, i've been trying out eerie spell glowking and it can put in a surprising amount of work. taking 3 pp away from a recovery move or a strong attack can make a hell of a lot of difference, especially when you pair it with a pressure user. i've found that it can sometimes be more useful to stallbreaking and recovery disruption than psychic noise over the long term, since "oh shit i'm out of pp" doesn't wear off in 2 turns. bonus points, it's a sound move like pnoise, so you still get all the anti-sub benefits from that and deal slightly more damage. warning: you do need to be a bit more discerning about when you click this, since it's only got 8 pp of its own
 
Give me your slightly unorthodox moves/sets for common OU mon. I'm talking like Thunderbolt/Flamethrower Dragapult type shit, I need some heat for a team but I am unsure what to fill some slots on it just yet and I want to be inspired. :blobuwu:
quick claw kingambit. I figured that since I only send out gambit when i'm 90% sure it can sweep (i.e zama and tusk are gone) i didn't need passive healing from lefties or hazard immunity from boosts. And we all know that gambit LOVES making you guess when it's gonna click sucker so it's incredibly hilarious to have a 1/16 or so chance to get priority anyways. I've genuinely pissed off so many people with this set it's hilarious. Might try it on tera dark gambit to make sp a safer click into val's new vacuum wave sets (assuming +2) but i've had tons of success with tera fairy blast.
 
Of course, Knock is way more useful against other ghosts, especially Dragapult and Sinischa, but Ice Spinner has basically the same calcs against them anyway. I could see Knock Off helping the Pecharunt matchup, depending on teams and predictions.
knock off is definitely better into both of these mons than ice spinner– the calcs don't make as much of a difference as the item removal. Without Boots, Pult's ability to be a fast pivot gets hampered by hazards over the course of the game, same goes for Pech and Matcha guy. Without their items, their longevity is severely cut by hazards, which is part of what makes knock so good as a progress making move in the first place.

i think your post looks over how knock off in and of itself is a progress making move as it allows hazards to be more effective in their progress-making, as well as severely cutting the longevity of a lot of spinblockers
 
On the flip side, Knock Off is a splashable move because it gives progress into anything except a Booster Energy mon or a dedicated Knock absorber, and it cannibalizes itself - the first use it's a great move, but after that it's weak and accomplishes nothing.

Swapping out Knock Off on Great Tusk allows you to slot it on other mons without running into that risk, and there's an awful lot of potential users out there. Yeah, you've got to cover your spin blockers other than Gholdengo, but Gholdengo is the most common one, so that's not a terrible trade.
 
Thank you for all your responses! If anyone else has some niche sets they'd want to share absolutely do go ahead.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
- Substitute
Sub on Waterpon is downright evil shit. That actually looks super fun though, usually I've only ever run Playrough to ruin some dragons day but this looks very fun.
Iron Treads @ Soft Sand
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
Love the idea of soft sand here, especially cuz I feel like raw attacker Treads feels kinda good at times for what it provides ngl.
i've been trying out eerie spell glowking and it can put in a surprising amount of work. taking 3 pp away from a recovery move or a strong attack can make a hell of a lot of difference, especially when you pair it with a pressure user. i've found that it can sometimes be more useful to stallbreaking and recovery disruption than psychic noise over the long term, since "oh shit i'm out of pp" doesn't wear off in 2 turns. bonus points, it's a sound move like pnoise, so you still get all the anti-sub benefits from that and deal slightly more damage. warning: you do need to be a bit more discerning about when you click this, since it's only got 8 pp of its own
I've been using this off and on for awhile to deal with gargs, absolutely demolishes their saltcure usage lol
 
Thank you for all your responses! If anyone else has some niche sets they'd want to share absolutely do go ahead.

Sub on Waterpon is downright evil shit. That actually looks super fun though, usually I've only ever run Playrough to ruin some dragons day but this looks very fun.

Love the idea of soft sand here, especially cuz I feel like raw attacker Treads feels kinda good at times for what it provides ngl.

I've been using this off and on for awhile to deal with gargs, absolutely demolishes their saltcure usage lol
Volcanion @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 160 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Body Press
Forgot to post this, but here's a volcanion set that I've been liking a lot. This ofc, is dependant on g-terrain being up, but if it is, then its an absolute monster. It is probably one of the single best trade mons I have ever used, with it being able to take down two pokemon minimum per game, and having very good chances to get 3 or 4 pokemon. Grassy seed boost not only boosts your survivability, but it also means you can use boosted body presses, which absolutely rip through blissey and roaring moon.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 186-218 (61.7 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah uhh, this thing tanks basically any physical hit easily.
 
Volcanion @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 160 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Body Press
Forgot to post this, but here's a volcanion set that I've been liking a lot. This ofc, is dependant on g-terrain being up, but if it is, then its an absolute monster. It is probably one of the single best trade mons I have ever used, with it being able to take down two pokemon minimum per game, and having very good chances to get 3 or 4 pokemon. Grassy seed boost not only boosts your survivability, but it also means you can use boosted body presses, which absolutely rip through blissey and roaring moon.
Now THIS is the sort of sick twisted perverted shit I'm after. I have to give this a try because Body Press on Volcanion is just the right amount of twisted mind gameplay I'm a junkie for.
 
Has anyone tried cooking with Empoleon or have some fun cores? I saw him show up in some people's VR slates, and watching a Pecharunt use parting shot on it is like, basically drugs or something. Both utility and agility sets seems like they could be fun, but being slower than the relevant offensive grounds is pain.
https://pokepast.es/cbfceecd0d8c803f
This is a team I made built around empoleon. It honestly isn't great, but it doesn't feel horrible. You could maybe replace waterpon with something else on this team, but I think the foundation of empo+pecha+ting lu is pretty good. You have your hazard core in empo+ting, your hazard detterence core in empo+pecha, and your god core in pecha+ting lu.
You could maybe swap out ice beam for somthing else like grass knot or knock off, but it works so far.
 
Now THIS is the sort of sick twisted perverted shit I'm after. I have to give this a try because Body Press on Volcanion is just the right amount of twisted mind gameplay I'm a junkie for.
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 120 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Icicle Spear
- Protect
Be a meanie and cheese your way to win
Evs are for outspeeding wellspring at +1, surviving max atk val cc, and surviving ghold make it rain
 
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Thank you for all your responses! If anyone else has some niche sets they'd want to share absolutely do go ahead.
Not sure how much this leans as far as niche goes, so you be the judge of this:

Iron Crown wChoice Specs
Tera Steel
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
Tachyon Cutter
Psyshock
Psychic Noise / Future Sight
Volt Switch

Why drop Focus Blast? Well, i'm either crazy or see something some people can't. Hard to say. Why? Because relying on it's garbage accuracy with prediction is nonsense to me. Yes, you can't hit grounded Steels that well, especially the occasional Heatran, and Ting-Lu pretty much completely blanks you, but in return, you got a breaker who can either set up for a Tag Team combo with Future Sight (which goes crazy on the Stall MU especially, usually forcing a Tera or even a kill if you're lucky), or deck some staples with Psyshock. Sort of like Tapu Lele in USUM and SS if you think about it.

By no means is this Crown set anything particularly novel, but it's got it's positives for sure. Just have a sturdy plan for Kingambit and Ting-Lu and you'll see that Crown is still the goat like usual
 
Volcanion @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 160 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Body Press
Forgot to post this, but here's a volcanion set that I've been liking a lot. This ofc, is dependant on g-terrain being up, but if it is, then its an absolute monster. It is probably one of the single best trade mons I have ever used, with it being able to take down two pokemon minimum per game, and having very good chances to get 3 or 4 pokemon. Grassy seed boost not only boosts your survivability, but it also means you can use boosted body presses, which absolutely rip through blissey and roaring moon.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 186-218 (61.7 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah uhh, this thing tanks basically any physical hit easily.
please pass me a team with that that looks amazing. Also whats press damage into moon?
 
Volcanion @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 160 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Body Press
This seems cool! It reminds me of a similar one but with :raging-bolt:raging bolt instead, it also utilises grassy terrain reduced bp on certain ground moves. Although I'll say it's not as efficient now due to :ting-lu:ting-lu and :dragonite:dragonite usage rising right now, I guess :volcanion:volcanion is in a similar boat but it suffers more against dragonite compared to ting-lu.
 
Volcanion @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 160 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Body Press
Forgot to post this, but here's a volcanion set that I've been liking a lot. This ofc, is dependant on g-terrain being up, but if it is, then its an absolute monster. It is probably one of the single best trade mons I have ever used, with it being able to take down two pokemon minimum per game, and having very good chances to get 3 or 4 pokemon. Grassy seed boost not only boosts your survivability, but it also means you can use boosted body presses, which absolutely rip through blissey and roaring moon.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 186-218 (61.7 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah uhh, this thing tanks basically any physical hit easily.
i just ran the numbers and it turns out you can actually optimize this further by going for 48 hp/112 def, which slightly improves most of these calcs and also bolsters its spdef a bit:

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 48 HP / 112 Def Volcanion: 204-242 (65.1 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +1 48 HP / 112 Def Volcanion: 243-286 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. +1 48 HP / 112 Def Volcanion: 264-312 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. +1 48 HP / 112 Def Volcanion: 192-228 (61.3 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (somehow the max roll is worse but let's be real this is by far the least important calc on here)

you can also go for something like 60/120 with 232 spa if you're comfortable taking a little bit of its kill power away
 
Not sure how much this leans as far as niche goes, so you be the judge of this:

Iron Crown wChoice Specs
Tera Steel
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
Tachyon Cutter
Psyshock
Psychic Noise / Future Sight
Volt Switch

Why drop Focus Blast? Well, i'm either crazy or see something some people can't. Hard to say. Why? Because relying on it's garbage accuracy with prediction is nonsense to me. Yes, you can't hit grounded Steels that well, especially the occasional Heatran, and Ting-Lu pretty much completely blanks you, but in return, you got a breaker who can either set up for a Tag Team combo with Future Sight (which goes crazy on the Stall MU especially, usually forcing a Tera or even a kill if you're lucky), or deck some staples with Psyshock. Sort of like Tapu Lele in USUM and SS if you think about it.

By no means is this Crown set anything particularly novel, but it's got it's positives for sure. Just have a sturdy plan for Kingambit and Ting-Lu and you'll see that Crown is still the goat like usual
I don’t think specs Crown ever ran Focus Blast. Tera Steel Tachyon does 40 to Kingambit and Ting-Lu anyway

edit: my favourite set btw
 
please pass me a team with that that looks amazing. Also whats press damage into moon?
+1 160 Def Volcanion Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 306-360 (87.1 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Yeah uhh, moon isn't taking this too well.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 82-97 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 160 Def Volcanion: 148-176 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Moon also does jack shit back to you, which is very funny.
 
What do you guys think happened to life orb? It seems non existent in SV OU
Life Orb can be a great item but in my opinion is only ideal if the user has some way of mitigating the recoil. The three common ways of recoil mitigation are:

Sheer Force - Feraligatr, Nidoking, Braviary, etc

Powerful Draining Moves - Venusaur, Ceruledge

Direct Recovery (Roost, Recover) - Latios

Other than these occasions, it’s rare that Life Orb will be better than just running Boots or a Choice Item. Sometimes, the power boost can be worth it if there are crucial OHKOs that can be achieved. (I.e. I’ve used LO Keldeo because it makes Secret Sword OHKO Kyurem and Vacuum Wave OHKO Kingambit)
 
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so in order to further explain why life orb is washed, i'm going to go through all of the things that run life orb in this meta (according to last month's stats), why they run them, and why i'd rather not run them most of the time:

:zamazenta: - the damage boost from this is actually quite nice for all-out-attacker zama, and combined with tera stellar it can be legitimately terrifying in the late game, but it seriously cuts into the mon's longevity. this is perfectly workable in the late game, but aoa zamazenta's so broadly useful throughout the span of a game that hazard immunity just generally ends up putting in more work than the damage boost. personally, if i'm looking for a damage boost on zama, i'm either running expert belt (its coverage is good enough to make this worth it) or putting a band on and going for breaker instead

:iron valiant: - life orb is neat on mixed valiant where booster energy on an attacking stat wouldn't suffice, but mixed valiant works much better in its anti-offense booster speed role, and pivot sets that don't like booster at all would usually rather go for boots because, well, they're pivot sets in a boots gen

:dragapult: - i'll admit this can actually be pretty solid with life orb if you're going for a mixed set, or you're running physical with sucker punch and don't want to end up being locked into it, or something like that. but with pult, i usually prefer to pick a side and run the choice item for it, and if i'm mixed i'd rather just go for boots. yeah this is gonna come up a lot

:darkrai: - this generally serves the same purpose as expert belt but is much less prediction-reliant and better on neutral hits. but if i'm gonna be running a set like that i'm probably hitting most of the meta supereffectively anyway and i'd rather just go all in on the predictions

:hatterene: - when you have... wait, seriously? people are running life orb on this? why?

:enamorus: - life orb is neat for those superpower contrary sets sometimes because the extra damage on top of enamorus's kinda insane coverage can wreck shit. but the aforementioned insane coverage means that she can just go for expert belt instead

:garchomp: - i'm gonna be honest i don't know why this is even in ou by usage recently. like i can see the factors that put it there, but every time i use the mon it feels like dead weight whose job can be accomplished better by ting or kyu

:walking wake: - just use the specs. this thing is built to not have to switch moves

:rillaboom: - now this one is actually quite interesting because grassy terrain partially offsets the life orb recoil, which minimizes the main drawback of the item. but band is just generally better because many of rillaboom's moves are fine even if you're locked in—u-turn, knock off, and the absolute nuclear bomb that is wood hammer are all extremely broad-spectrum clicks

there are other mons that run life orb in ou, but none of them are actually in the tier by usage and this post is running long already so i won't include them. surprisingly (though not actually very surprisingly), the only magic guard mon in the tier doesn't actually run life orb at all
 
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:rillaboom: - now this one is actually quite interesting because grassy terrain partially offsets the life orb recoil, which minimizes the main drawback of the item. but band is just generally better because many of rillaboom's moves are fine even if you're locked in—u-turn, knock off, and the absolute nuclear bomb that is wood hammer are all extremely broad-spectrum clicks
Even in the case of Rilla, I swear by Miracle Seed > Life Orb for the SD set. Most of the benefit with no recoil. Life Orb Wood Hammer is suicidal.
 
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