Format Discussion Metronome Battle

No, Avalugg will still be a horrible Pokemon because there are 196 special moves and only 275 physical moves. It is worse than Pecharunt in almost every way besides the Attack and Defense stat.

Flame Body and Tinted Lens are definitely interesting, though. I remember I stopped using Poison Touch a while back due to it being too slow to damage the opposing Pokemon, however a burn would instead reduce the damage Heracross-Mega does to my Pokemon. Tinted Lens could be useful, but is doing relatively 1.3333x more damage on only resisted hits worth it? Pecharunt only has 4 weaknesses, after all.
 
Out of curiosity (and with a bit of ego), I checked the usage stats and saw that Aurumoth shot up between November and December; while I can't attribute this to myself, I have been using it on my main team which I wanted to show:

Aurumoth (M) @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Metronome

Pecharunt @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Power Spot
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Metronome

(i'll be real i have no idea how to add the sprites and i'm too lazy to find a guide)
Now, this certainly is not the best team one can run, but I've been consistently in the 1300's-1400's and have gotten to top 30 or above on occasion, so I'd say it's doing pretty well. Tera Stellar is just in the event that I misclick, but I always go for Tera Ghost on Aurumoth.
Honestly I'm not sure on what the consensus on Power Spot is, but you can feel the boost when Aurumoth gets a high-power move, especially STAB. This was an idea I had since around the start of the current generation, which I got from one particular Gen 8 Metronome team of Abyssal Bot's on rom.psim.us: Power Spot Cresselia and Normalize Choice Band Mega Kangaskhan. It should be obvious what that entails; the latter was often bringing down mons to under half with just one attack. Of course using such a team for this generation would be a death sentence for your ranking, and I honestly think that's a shame.

I've had several major revisions before arriving at this current iteration:
  1. Precursors from a very long time ago had Iron Valiant with Ice Scales and another mon with Power Spot, such as Ting-Lu and Tapu Fini(??).
  2. Eventually I settled on Mega Sableye as the Power Spot mon, and then after that I switched from Iron Valiant to Aurumoth as the offensive mon due to the latter's much better overall bulk while still having similar attacking stats.
  3. After playing for a while, I felt that Ice Scales wasn't necessary; patching up Aurumoth's middling special bulk was nice, but I figured giving it more offensive power would be better, so I changed to Download (having played without Ice Scales for a while now, I can say that it takes most neutral special hits comfortably). I believe this was after I swapped out Mega Sableye for Pecharunt, as I felt the former ended up being too passive (which is weird, considering the two have similar offenses); its allure to me was mostly being able to win almost all Perish Song situations, but that didn't happen enough to the point where I favoured Pecharunt's Toxic immunity (which freed up Lum Berry for Mirror Herb, according to my personal preferences) and usable speed.
  4. I got the idea to use Tinted Lens after many a game where Aurumoth would hit a big move, only for it to be resisted. Download activating Mirror Herb also was a significant hindrance at times, so I decided to test out Tinted Lens since just over a week ago, I want to say (can you tell I make my decisions on a whim?). What a coincidence with the discussion right above.
Tinted Lens doesn't come into play every single game, but it is satisfying to do 40-50% on a "resisted" move now and then. I did have ideas for some other abilities I could run for Aurumoth, but this team is definitely my go-to for the time being.
I probably had more to say, but I can't think of anything right now. Just wanted to toot my own horn a little, and I hope to reach 1500's eventually. If I see you on the ladder, hi :)

doipy hooves said:
Sirfetch'd (which I tried to use in December with Stellar but felt it was still too frail)
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I've also tried it; just swapped out the Aurumoth from the team above, with Ghost Tera. It feels like a 50/50 whenever I play with it, but it's fun when it gets the right hits. Also used Sniper for a bit, but always critting was definitely better than doing greater damage on more frequent, but not guaranteed, crits.
 
I don't know if I should be worried, but looking at the 1760 stats rather than the 1630 stats for December reveals a very concerning statistic.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-12/gen9metronomebattle-1760.txt
1737323215726.png


No Pokemon has hit more than 50% usage in 1760 weighted nor 1630 weighted stats for the entire year besides Pecharunt.

Should we ban Pecharunt and ban Flower Veil? I certainly don't want a Venusaur-Mega Flower Veil spam metagame again, but Pecharunt is arguably the best defensive wall because it doesn't need to use Ghost Terastalization and it is performing too well.
 
idk why people are complaining about this so much. the best mons are gonna be the best mons, pecha is centralizing sure but it's not like it's dominating and winning every single game. it's just a very good and easy to use mon and we shouldn't ban it cause the meta's a little boring and people want to arbitrarily shake things up.
 
Hera said:
idk why people are complaining about this so much. the best mons are gonna be the best mons, pecha is centralizing sure but it's not like it's dominating and winning every single game. it's just a very good and easy to use mon and we shouldn't ban it cause the meta's a little boring and people want to arbitrarily shake things up.
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Except the problem is that Pecharunt is a combination of the two best legal types in the metagame, an extremely high defense stat, and passable offenses. Because of these qualities, double Pecharunt teams can best take advantage of Tera Stellar. For single Pecharunt teams, Pecharunt allows its partner to use Tera Ghost, which is highly important for Pokemon with poor typings such as Heracross-Mega, Ting-Lu, Iron Hands, etc.

What makes Pecharunt different from Cofagrigus and Dusclops is its bulk, Poison as its secondary typing, and passable offenses. Its bulk is higher than Eviolite Dusclops and Cofagrigus, Poison type makes it only crippled by Burn, and 88/88 offenses are higher than both Cofagrigus (besides SpA) and Dusclops by a few decent base points.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
Except the problem is that Pecharunt is a combination of the two best legal types in the metagame, an extremely high defense stat, and passable offenses. Because of these qualities, double Pecharunt teams can best take advantage of Tera Stellar. For single Pecharunt teams, Pecharunt allows its partner to use Tera Ghost, which is highly important for Pokemon with poor typings such as Heracross-Mega, Ting-Lu, Iron Hands, etc.

What makes Pecharunt different from Cofagrigus and Dusclops is its bulk, Poison as its secondary typing, and passable offenses. Its bulk is higher than Eviolite Dusclops and Cofagrigus, Poison type makes it only crippled by Burn, and 88/88 offenses are higher than both Cofagrigus (besides SpA) and Dusclops by a few decent base points.
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yeah, this is all stuff we know and the main reasons why pecha is very good. the case you have to make though is that pecha is broken enough to be banworthy, and so far i've not really seeing that. it's obviously a very good mon, but wanting to ban is because it's really good instead of it actually being broken or over centralizing is strange to me. you're welcome to make the case that pecha is actually banworthy beyond stating what makes it so good or pointing at usage stats; you need to explain why these qualities make pecha oppressive.
 
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InkyDarkBird said:
I don't know if I should be worried, but looking at the 1760 stats rather than the 1630 stats for December reveals a very concerning statistic.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-12/gen9metronomebattle-1760.txt
View attachment 706132

No Pokemon has hit more than 50% usage in 1760 weighted nor 1630 weighted stats for the entire year besides Pecharunt.

Should we ban Pecharunt and ban Flower Veil? I certainly don't want a Venusaur-Mega Flower Veil spam metagame again, but Pecharunt is arguably the best defensive wall because it doesn't need to use Ghost Terastalization and it is performing too well.
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That is frankly quite alarming. Note the average weight per team is 0.007. That indicates that this data represents the very tippy top of high rated usage in Metronome battle. Looking at the corresponding moveset data for that month, those Pecharunt are running ~83% Ice Scales WP. It is also its most common teammate at 38%. That means a solid 20% of all the best performance in the meta is double Pecharunt teams, and those are basically all double Ice Scales + Weakness Policy. Considering that there are only two other species that even appear on >20% of teams within spitting distance of 1760, and Pecharunt is the most common teammate of one of them, I think its safe to say Pecharunt has been unusually successful at reaching and maintaining high win rates.

I agree that something should probably change, but it doesn’t necessarily need to be a Pecharunt ban. I think Ice Scales is honestly an absurd ability and Pokémon that are already an incredible fit for the meta like Pecharunt and Ting Lu get so much value out of it that it usually does better against opposing Weakness Policy and Mirror Herb than Unaware does. That said, I think Pecharunt is far and away the main abuser of Ice Scales, as Ting Lu sees much more variety in its abilities and other users are hardly even worth mentioning. In short, I don’t think Ice Scales is truly broken without Pecharunt, and I’m not sure Pecharunt is broken without Ice Scales. This is not anywhere on the level of Shedinja being utterly unviable without Sturdy and vice versa, though.

I think enough has been said already about what makes Pecharunt so strong, but I’d like to point out that besides Sturdinja, there is only one Pokémon banned from Metronome that is neither Steel type nor over 625 BST, and that Pokemon is Pokestar Spirit. Spirit has 100/100/100/100/100/100 stats and a Ghost/Dark typing, making it remarkably similar to our friend Pecharunt. It was banned for being what Pecharunt is now: the obvious best choice for any role not taken by Choice Band Mega Heracross, Flower Veil Mega Venusaur, Imposter Blissey, or Eviolite Dusclops, while competing with and even outperforming those teams on the ladder*. I say we unban Pokestar Spirit and see how it compares to Pecharunt. Pecharunt has an arguably better stat spread and typing than Spirit, especially given that Ice Scales is allowed.

*Well, okay, this isn’t entirely true. Pokestar Spirit was banned when the steel type ban was only a Steel/Ghost ban, so it was outperforming things like Magearna, Celesteela, and Pokestar MT. That doesn’t mean Pecharunt isn’t as good as Spirit, though. On the contrary, I think if Pecharunt had existed back in gen 7 Metronome, it might have gotten banned too. Hell, Pecharunt and Spirit existing at the same time back then might have been enough to get ghost types blanket banned.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I don’t see what Flower Veil has to do with this. The only thing that made it oppressive before was Toxic Chain, which is banned now.
 
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I am someone who is new to the format, playing only for one month, but I did get multiple different teams to above 1400 all on fresh accounts over the holidays. I can share my thoughts on the meta/game.

First of all, I also wanted to mention if it is worth making a discord for this. Would be nice to have a chat to talk about this format. I am not a big forum user myself but I appreciate all the work in this forum and its fun to see compiled usage stats outside myself going through the index of stats manually. Doesn't have to be an officially linked one, and I didn't want to make it since I am not a common user on the forums even though I've played various formats for years, but I think for a chill gamemode like this a casual chat like a discord might be well suited.

Regarding Pecharunt: I am usually not someone pro banning things. There will always be "the best option" to use in a meta. This gamemode has an entire type banned, with many abilities and there are still clear winners. I also think "x% usage in x elo" is slightly arbitrary. Would 49% usage be unproblematic suddenly because it is 1% less? idk not my vibe, but if something should be banned then it should not be Pecharunt.

Regarding ice scales: Definitely the "problem" especially when paired with high defense mons. I ran a team with one Pecharunt one mega Veno, both with ice scales and I climbed even faster than the 2x Pecharunt team, two different accounts at different times of day. Before banning an entire mon, this is def worth considering since the ability itself seems very unfun/stally.

Re Flower-Veil: I may have only played this format more-invested recently, but I was around for Toxic Chain and played more casually then. No idea why this was even brought up now, and I think the Pecharunt ban convo itself is a bit unserious when the original post mentions banning this ability before ice scales due to a hypothetical follow up meta.

Re Pokestar-Spirit: Unban could be cool. As far as I understand, a lot of bans happened in older gens, might be worth seeing how things play out. How are bans/unbans decided btw?

Re Blissey: While we are on the topic of meta/the game, I think Blissey is unfun. If we are randomly talking about things that are not fun, what is everyone's opinion on Blissey. Teambuilding is the only thing you control in this mode, and facing Blissey just feels like meh, and I also think it discourages some types of teams.

Re Stats: I'm curious if the 1760s stats are actually appropriate for this gamemode since I think they represent an unrealistic ceiling. Would be interested to see what people think.

Anyway, happy to discuss all this stuff, I'll probably try a few more creative teams and see how those go.
 
Imposter Blissey does potently well against offensive teams (e.g. double Mega Heracross, double Glastrier, double Mega Ampharos) and glaringly poorly against stallier teams (e.g. double Pecharunt, Type: Null + Dusclops). It's a match-up fish, and I dare say its best match-ups are getting rarer and rarer.

Regular Blissey is a liability in this meta (at least IMO) due to its poor physical defense.
 
Lectrys said:
Imposter Blissey does potently well against offensive teams (e.g. double Mega Heracross, double Glastrier, double Mega Ampharos) and glaringly poorly against stallier teams (e.g. double Pecharunt, Type: Null + Dusclops). It's a match-up fish, and I dare say its best match-ups are getting rarer and rarer.

Regular Blissey is a liability in this meta (at least IMO) due to its poor physical defense.
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Mhm, was just curious what people's feelings on it are, just as a vibe based thing, because to me it's prob the team I like playing against the least, even though most teams I've ran are on the slower side. Not a winrate thing, more of just vibes based feel.

Have there been attempts to do one imposter Bliss instead of a double with anything outside hera (like a slower team)? I haven't noticed a positioning standard in many teams I've faced (as in a certain pokemon always being first or second) so I assume there aren't too many attempts on it (and the only hera bliss I saw was the one I ran at some point). It's weird because stats show Bliss is Bliss partner only 1/4th of the time, with hera being the next most ran at like 15%, but after that the percentages get so small it seems like random non-representative teams
 
Game Brain said:
Have there been attempts to do one imposter Bliss instead of a double with anything outside hera (like a slower team)? I haven't noticed a positioning standard in many teams I've faced (as in a certain pokemon always being first or second) so I assume there aren't too many attempts on it (and the only hera bliss I saw was the one I ran at some point). It's weird because stats show Bliss is Bliss partner only 1/4th of the time, with hera being the next most ran at like 15%, but after that the percentages get so small it seems like random non-representative teams
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I remember trying Glastrier + Imposter Blissey for a time. It was decent, but Shox + Pecharunt got me the highest on the ladder so far (better than my offensive teams) and consistently gets into the 1400s, unlike Glastrier + Imposter Blissey.
 
Going off of Lectrys's team I hit 1500 with Pecharunt and Veno

1737578656725.png


1737578679001.png

nut (Pecharunt) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Ice Scales
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

1737578640136.png

bean (Venusaur-Mega) (F) @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

This team was used from 1400 to 1500. I hit 1450 a few times using some variants of this (before falling back down), one with banded ice scales regirock over veno which also felt good but too vulnerable to status. I can probably compile all teams I've used if there is interest.

Edit: had to edit post since images were broken
 
justindoes said:
(i'll be real i have no idea how to add the sprites and i'm too lazy to find a guide)
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(You can type :sv/pokemon: to get a 3D model, replace sv with other gens like rs for different sprites or just :pokemon: for a minisprite).

Happy to see appreciate seeing more active discussion going on to start off 2025 and the different breadths of analysis people are bringing up. I think it's interesting to see how the recent posts over the last month may have been relevant to influencing some of the major shifts in January's stats, which I feel goes to show popularity/trend-based the meta can ultimately seem, but that might just be me.

(After all, Pokestar Spirit was technically still usable for years yet got no usage because it was supposed to be banned. I think that says something about people and the honour system. Or more of the fact that despite being banned, someone decided to still try to use it anyway through an oversight with cosmetic forms in the process, so maybe it more says something about how even the most unpredictable things will happen eventually.)

Also this is kind of late, but the RNG manipulation trick ended up getting patched.
Game Brain said:
Re Pokestar-Spirit: Unban could be cool. As far as I understand, a lot of bans happened in older gens, might be worth seeing how things play out. How are bans/unbans decided btw?

Re Stats: I'm curious if the 1760s stats are actually appropriate for this gamemode since I think they represent an unrealistic ceiling. Would be interested to see what people think.

Anyway, happy to discuss all this stuff, I'll probably try a few more creative teams and see how those go.
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To be honest, suspects are really more just a matter of enough public opinion/discussion and up to Ivy to officially decide on in the end.

I feel like the 1700s are around where you might see the #1 ladderers at, which I see as kind of similar to viability ceilings in terms of more representing what might peak with a good streak which could be for a number of different reasons. For example, in the 1760 stats for this month Shox is #9 despite having 230 raw uses. It's interesting to point out in that sense and I appreciate the observation, but I personally see the 1630s as more representative of the general state of the ladder around ~1300 ELO and more varied to look at.


https://www.smogon.com/stats/2025-01/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2025-01/moveset/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt

The battle count went down a bit again to 26046 but is still relatively alright.

January 2025: 1630-weighted top 10 + last month positions​

#1: Pecharunt (#2) :pecharunt:
#2: Mega Heracross (#1) :heracross-mega:
#3: Mega Ampharos (#5) :ampharos-mega:
#4: Mega Venusaur (#3) :venusaur-mega:
#5: Blissey (#4) :blissey:
#6: Ting-Lu (no change) :ting-lu:
#7: Aurumoth (#31) :aurumoth:
#8: Mega Slowbro (#11) :slowbro-mega:
#9: Glastrier (#22) :glastrier:
#10: Mega Sableye (#7) :sableye-mega:

Quite a bit of shakeups to be noticed, with shuffles and upsets all around. First things first, to start off 2025, Pecharunt has made it to an undisputed first in both raw and weighted usage after its recent spotlights here, cleanly surpassing even Heracross (8669 to 8395 in the moveset file). It seems like quite a bit of Venusaur's raw usage that's been chasing after Heracross has shifted over to Pecharunt instead (Venusaur is at 6071 now). Based on the moveset file, Ice Scales is pretty much the prime ability at 54%, though the Power Spot set mentioned above is at a fair second/24% which can also be seen with the prevalence of Aurumoth itself. The top half has mostly shuffled around otherwise, with Ting-Lu still hanging in 6th, but it's a pretty interesting sign of a greater change in sentiment from the recent discussions.

Meanwhile, Aurumoth is a dark horse that's also been getting some revitalized discussion recently from justindoes above with the idea of Tinted Lens, which is indeed the primary set it's represented with. This is actually Aurumoth's debut in a proper top 10, though technically it's appeared in one of these once before according to a search, but only in October 2020's 9 days worth of SWSH DLC2 stats. It's a good effort arguing for Tinted Lens, which is an ability I was pretty fond of with Shaymin back in the Steel days, and perhaps it has a new place in this particular meta. Speaking of SWSH DLC2, Glastrier has also returned as a white horse, and surprisingly Aerilate seems to lead on it with some kind of double Glastrier strategy involved. As mentioned earlier in this post and thread, Shox is actually doing pretty well for itself at #25 even with 1630-weighting, and Rotom-Wash is at #19 in terms of the bot watch, barely beating out Mega Gengar.

Going over the moveset file, the viability ceilings (highest GXE of any user of a mon) are pretty representative of the meta too, so may as well get right into it. Starting off at 84 we have Mega Slowbro (Ice Scales/Lightning Rod, Weakness Policy and Power Herb is still here for some reason), and Hisuian Zoroark who has so many abilities and items listed that I don't really know what to say other than Good as Gold/Mind's Eye and Choice Specs/Mirror Herb are in the lead, and its primary teammate is Mega Sableye I guess.

Following up is a five-way tie at 82 with Mega Heracross (mainly Pecharunt teammate), Mega Ampharos (Plus/Minus leading), Mega Camerupt (Storm Drain/Choice Specs with mainly stall partners like Ting-Lu/Pecharunt/Slowbro/Regirock...), Iron Hands (running Weakness Policy/Flower Veil with Venusaur? Pickup Mirror Herb with Ting-Lu? Ice Scales? Lots going on. I'm not sure if Flower Veil Iron Hands is a new thing or not, so I'll just note that specific phrase here for reference at least), and even just Magic Bounce/Absolite Mega Absol played straight with Diancie/Dragonite teammates. I'm really not sure what to say about that, considering it's placed #99 otherwise, but I guess it got a good run for itself.

Rounding off to a nice 10 mons, at 80 there's the main meta of Pecharunt (whose primary teammate is actually Heracross, followed by Pecharunt and Aurumoth), Mega Venusaur (Flower Veil and Magic Bounce both at ~36% usage, also with a main Pecharunt teammate), and Imposter Blissey (Ghost tera still around 58% usage, Stellar fell a bit to 24%, Mystery Berry only 3%). With that, that's 10 mons within a ceiling of 80, which I think is a new record and the newest highest point that I've stopped at, following up from 8 and 7 mons in the last 2 months. Is this a sign of a new age of parity, and/or has Pecharunt found a meta role of splashable teammate like prime Ting-Lu? Either way, thanks for your reading, and feel free to share your thoughts/personal experiences as always.
 
There's a lot to say but I guess let's start off with this.

Hit 1500 on another account (inspired by a Ting-Lu team someone shared with me). Not as consistent as my last team, but was still pretty good (played from around 1350 to 1500).
image 1500.png


1738624409678.png

Zhongli (Regirock) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

1738624486181.png

Sigewinne (Blissey) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Imposter
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Metronome


Some comments, especially regarding Regirock, I think the mon is underrated. I actually tested it quite a bit last month too, and was a bit surprised to see little mention in stats post even though it went from the 43rd spot to top 25 without the actual raw number changing much. There are many small variants of the set above I have had success with. Ice scales Rock with choice band partnered with Pecha got to 1450 multiple times, and I even tried Ice Scales tera grass with flower veil Veno which did really well as well. In general ice scales pairs well with this mon's great physical bulk, and I think there is a lot to be explored with it. Overall, I love using Regirock and I think it can find a spot in the meta that I think most people are ignoring right now (it's not better than Ting-Lu probably, but for sure has much less usage than it deserves).

I don't think we are close to anything like a suspect test or ban yet, but I do think it's interesting to see how Ice Scales teams are evolving. I think clear amulet, and especially covert cloak are great items for ice scales mons, especially due to making the double pickup matchup a bit better. I'm sure there will be more new teams innovated, and I think there are a lot of underexplored mons, as recent rises like Shox (and hopefully Regirock now) have shown. I do think there is something notable about the influence of these forums on ladder as well: I noticed a few people picked up my Pecha/Veno team. I faced that team quite a bit, compared to a team that someone shared with me involving Ting-Lu and no Pecha (that hit 1500 quite easily, idk if they want the team shared here so I won't type more), that wasn't shared on here, and thus saw little representation.

I do believe Pecha is the strongest mon, but there are many unique teams that can still see play, and hit top of ladder (quick nod to aggressive double pickup teams doing really well into ice scales weakness policy from what I've seen). I hope people continue sharing their fun and unique teams here, because it's honestly really enjoyable to just que up and play fun and creative combinations.
 
Ok so I'm making another post with a few updates. A friend helped me set up a bot for large scale testing. If anyone is interested in testing minor differences between two teams or anything like that please let me know. That said I will try to not just have it running constantly as I do not want to spam the ladder, because unlike hippobotas, I can only change teams manually.

Speaking of teams, double Ampharos with plus/minus specs is actually much much better than I originally thought (and I thought it was pretty good). Bot broke 1500 in just a few hours of running it during the stress test (including facing double bliss and double pecha quite often). Thanks to pyuk for our discussion on it!

hunter 1500.png


Instead of just dumping a single team, especially since this one is not really fully mine, I made a pokepaste with many of my teams - some are for fun (not that good), while others can be good ladder options and inlcude teams I've posted here before. Note certain sets may not be optimal or are slightly outdated, but many of these I just que for fun. Sorry for the bad formatting, didn't know how else to separate teams in pokepaste.

https://pokepast.es/02f52a4119093361

The ampharos team the bot used is at the top of that list, and there are some really fun teams I enjoy such as the Bungus Family (inspired by the old sample team). Intimidate Sableye turning into mega after is also something I think may have a nice niche but needs more testing. Has overall good matchups and is very cheesy into double bliss leaving them with an objectively worse mon (obviously need to hard stop running it though if a single person on ladder is running defiant at the same time as you). Anyway, many of the more niche teams on there are not as good ladder options as some of the better ones posted in this forum, but they can lead to a fun metronome session most of the time imo.

That's all for now. I hope we can get a room or a discord or something but it looks like there isn't much interest. Maybe a sub room in OM chat or something could work? Not sure how the details for something like that work.

Edit: Fixed some typos
 
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Hey guys. So I am here with a quest: Make an entirely NEW Top 10 for this metagame. I know it sounds ridiculous, given the extreme popularity of every regular top 10 Pokemon. AND I'm making a post about this, so people could quite honestly just not use anything. But if there's anything I know about this tier, it's that people test things out every now and then. I wanna test out something new as well, so I give you the following Top 10 Pokemon, in no particular order.
:Abomasnow mega::Pinsir mega::Gardevoir mega::deoxys attack::Dhelmise::regirock::gigalith::Gengar mega::volcanion::goodra:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
1. :SV/Abomasnow Mega:
Now I do want to preface this by saying, all of these mons have probably seen a Top 10 usage before, or at least Top 100. Now in the beginning of me playing this tier, I used things like Wishiwashi-School and Mega Camerupt. This is because they are some of the more bulky mixed bulk options, which also got some firepower behind them. Now let's assume all 3 of these guys are against a Mega Heracross Choice Band Body Slam, for the calcs purpose.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Camerupt-Mega: 236-278 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Wishiwashi-School: 197-232 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Abomasnow-Mega: 228-269 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^ The difference in bulk between these 3 is not too far apart, but it is noticable enough to make a difference in battle. Then you add in the fact that it's only 8 stats lower in offenses than Wishiwashi School form, it's literally just better than all of these. It's also got the same amount of special bulk, so it's pretty good as just a Wishiwashi School type mon. Oh, and it's the same speed as Wishiwashi-School as well. Optimization is real folks.
As for how to use it... most people, myself included, are opting for a set with Primordial Sea/Well Baked Body/Flash Fire to get rid of the 4x weakness to Fire. Items aren't very diverse, being Weakness Policy, Mirror Herb, Band, Normalium Z, and like Specs. The item choice isn't what matters here, but the abilities do. Past the abilities that make you immune to Fire, you can use something like Friend Guard or Unaware as a niche method to aid your partner. Or my favorite option: Flower Veil.
2. :SV/pinsir mega:
Okay so why in the world would you use this over the much, MUCH stronger Mega Heracross, who ALSO has better bulk to boot? Because it's faster. Now normally, speed doesn't matter at all. However, with Mega Heracross being a thing, outspeeding it as an offensive option is pretty damn important. That and, Pecharunt is even faster than it at base 88 speed. So then there's this guy: 155 Attack and 105 Speed, with okay 65/120/90 bulk. Its ability Aerilate is probably the best way to use it. Given it's faster than Mega Heracross, has natural STAB for its ability, AND Mega Heracross is quad weak to Flying? Yes please. Now let's say we face a Pecharunt. How much are we losing for using Mega Pinsir instead of Heracross?
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 192-228 (50.5 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pinsir-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 170-200 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
^ Well turns out, we are missing a lot of damage. And as mentioned earlier, Mega Heracross is bulkier than Pinsir. However, this guy is still really good. Would invest in Mega Pinsir stonks soon. Meta will be shifting following March and beyond.
3. :SV/gardevoir mega:
"So not only is he recommending me a worse Mega Heracross, but a worse Mega Ampharos as well? No thanks."
Wait, wait, wait. Just hear me out on this one. They have the same Special Attack of 165, AND this guy is faster! Like with Mega Heracross, Speed do be important as of late. And fortunately, we can use Pixilate on this guy to have a similar effect to Aerilate Mega Pinsir. Though Pixilate Normal moves are resisted by Pecharunt, you trade this for a super effective move into Mega Heracross AND Mega Ampharos. These are the 2 main offensive things in the tier, so having a fast special attacker to wack them is pretty nice. However, the trade-off is that this guy is a lot frailer than Mega Ampharos on the physical side of things, and its barely specially bulkier.
4. :SV/deoxys attack:
Mega Heracross has 185 Attack. This guy has 180 Attack. This guy also has 180 Special Attack. AND 150 Speed. It's likely faster than most of the meta relevant things you see, and stronger too. Mega Heracross and Mega Ampharos combinations are known to end games when they call moves of their favorable stat buff, so why not just have both options? Unfortunately, such offensive prowess comes with, the worst bulk you'll ever see. 50/20/20 bulk is MAYBE going to live 2 attacks maximum, so using this guy is very risky.
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Cut vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Attack: 199-235 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^ For godsake, it takes 77% from CUT. The move with 50 BASE POWER. However, it is still VERY powerful. So much so that it could even get away with both offensively methods used by Mega Heracross and Ampharos. And a little secret for you...
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Attack with an ally's Friend Guard: 253-298 (83.2 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^ A Friend Guard partner makes it survive 3-4 hits instead of 2. Though if need be, you could simply use Sturdy and live 1 of anything.
5. :SV/dhelmise:
Dhelmise has 131 Attack, and is a Ghost Grass type. It's got roughly the same bulk as Necturna, and has 1 more stat in Special Attack. So why do people use Necturna? Not sure, maybe they just don't like Dhelmise. But Ghost Grass typing is really useful. It means you have a Flower Veil partner that's NATURALLY got Tera Ghost, probably the most popular Tera Type in the tier. It is kinda slow, but neither is the comparison to it. Whatever you use Necturna for, this guy does better, assuming its speed doesn't matter.
6/7. :SV/regirock: :SV/gigalith:
These 2 fill much of the same role: Bulky Rock type. Rock is a good type in this tier, because it procs Weakness Policy about as often as Grass types, and has resistances to Normal and Flying--which are both pretty common offensive typings. Gigalith is nowhere near as bulky as Regirock, yes, BUT it is stronger. Like, a lot stronger. 135 Attack is low, until you think of it in a broader light. It's stronger than Dragonite. It's pretty far from Landorus-Therian levels of power, and it definitely shouldn't try to be more powerful. Although, Ice Scales and the like are pretty good for it.
8. :SV/gengar mega:
Now let's try the special side of things. 170 Special Attack and ghost type naturally. This thing is even stronger than Mega Ampharos/Gardevoir. And faster too. It's got 130 speed, so it's faster than most things. Sounds like a recipe for amazing things. But it's got 65 Attack, which kinda sucks, but it's better than nothing. But 60/80 physical bulk isn't good. It's got pros and cons to it, and it's pretty solid imo. Imagine if Mega Gengar had actual bulk to it. Very scary idea imo.
9. :SV/volcanion:
Such a downgrade man. 130 Special Attack instead of 160-180? It's not weak tho. only 5 points weaker than Chi-Yu. And even though Chi-Yu itself isn't really common, its ability is. Beads of Ruin on this guy is honestly pretty powerful, as are things like Analytic, Competitive, and Choice Specs. 80/120/90 bulk is solid as well, and it's got the same Attack as Ting-Lu. Just gotta put things in perspective man.
10. :SV/goodra:
Last thing on the list. This is the special wall. And while special walls aren't very common, keep in mind that special attackers do exist. Having something to taken them on is pretty valuable man.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mold Breaker Ampharos-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tera Normal Goodra: 121-143 (31.5 - 37.2%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mold Breaker Ampharos-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regice: 96-114 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
^ It's like a 6% differential. And Goodra is stronger. I think this thing is going to see an increase in usage overtime. We just need to wait.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
TLDR; At the end of the day, it's all just opportunity cost. Why use X when Y is stronger, bulkier, faster? People think that the best things are just the most balanced in what they can do, and while true, other things exist. Typing and stats play into how good something is. Bug-Fighting is a pretty bleh type defensively, but Mega Heracross got 185 Attack and 80/115/105 bulk to compensate. Same with Mega Ampharos--165 Special Attack and a better 90/105/110 bulk baseline than everything stronger. All of these mons have usage in Metronome Battles, so they aren't bad. Pretty sure something like Regirock even made the top 10 usage charts one month. But yea. I personally will see to it that I make every single combination of mon that these guys can have, which is... 100 teams. JUST to see how good everything is, and what their perks are. It takes more than word of mouth and a few calcs to see how good something is, especially since the calcs are not likely to happen. But it's for reference purposes. Comparing 1 moves likelyhood of KOing to another gives you an understanding of what stronger and weaker hits can accomplish damage wise.
See y'all when the first guy is done :3
 
Lectrys said:
Weakness Policy procs force the Pickup guys to pick up the Weakness Policy instead of Mirror Herb. Watch the look on their face when their Tera Ghost guy picks Weakness Policy up.
Click to expand...
Weakness Policy is not a counter to Pickup Mirror Herb for obvious reasons. If you want a real counter, Unaware completely shuts down their whole gimmick leaving them effectively without an item or ability. If you want a gimmicky counter, slow Speed Boost will activate after Pickup which almost guarantees that you’ll burn both Mirror Herbs on a useless +1 Speed in such a way that they can’t pick them back up again. Alternatively, you could just use a team that runs on raw power with little to no boosts like Plus/Minus or Sword/Beads of Ruin. I won’t say Imposter is a sure fire counter, but with at least two speed ties and Leppa Berries in the mix, things tend to get really chaotic after Turn 5.

Edit: If you want to disrupt Pickup Mirror Herb with an item, Kee/Maranga Berry is a much better answer than Weakness Policy. It activates sooner and gives a much less unequalizing boost to the opponent.
 
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pyuk said:
Weakness Policy is not a counter to Pickup Mirror Herb for obvious reasons. If you want a real counter, Unaware completely shuts down their whole gimmick leaving them effectively without an item or ability. If you want a gimmicky counter, slow Speed Boost will activate after Pickup which almost guarantees that you’ll burn both Mirror Herbs on a useless +1 Speed in such a way that they can’t pick them back up again. Alternatively, you could just use a team that runs on raw power with little to no boosts like Plus/Minus or Sword/Beads of Ruin. I won’t say Imposter is a sure fire counter, but with at least two speed ties and Leppa Berries in the mix, things tend to get really chaotic after Turn 5.

Edit: If you want to disrupt Pickup Mirror Herb with an item, Kee/Maranga Berry is a much better answer than Weakness Policy. It activates sooner and gives a much less unequalizing boost to the opponent.
Click to expand...
I named Weakness Policy as a natural counter to Pickup Mirror Herb precisely because I have witnessed Pickup misfire and pick up an opposing Weakness Policy many times, thus halting the Mirror Herb chain. See this replay's Turn 1 for an example of Pickup picking up Weakness Policy and essentially halting for the rest of the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9metronomebattle-2299789153
 
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