my friend, the toxic chain ban took effect on July 20th!
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Format Discussion Metronome Battle
- Thread starter Ivy
- Start date
Is the Ghost type too centralizing in Metronome Battles? Being immune to 21.3% (85/399) of offensive moves or 14.7% (85/577) of all Metronome moves means that roughly every 7 turns, your Pokemon will take no damage. This causes the more niche Normal and Fighting moves to become nearly game-ending (Explosion/Self-Destruct, High Jump/Axe Kick) or useless (Reversal, Endeavor, Horn Drill, Guillotine, Uproar, Bind, Wrap). Curse also becomes a blessing or a loss, depending on the situation. In exchange for these immunities, Ghosts only become weak to offensive Ghost and Dark moves, which only make up 8.78% of offensive moves (35/399). Running Mind's Eye is almost never worth it, so these relative defensive buffs are often unchecked by anything. Furthermore, these weaknesses are somewhat countered by the fact that Ghosts resists offensive Bug and Poison moves, which also make up 8.78% (35/399) of offensive moves. Other than Grass, there is almost no excuse for running a type besides Ghost.
However, Ghosts have their flaws. The main competition to the Ghost type is Grass, which is carried solely by Flower Veil Venusaur-Mega (also kind of centralizing). Being immune to opponent stat drops and non-volatile status is extremely valuable for maintaining offensive pressure and bulk. In addition, most base Ghost types suck with their low bulk or low offensive power, with Pecharunt being the sole exception. Because of this, Ghosts can generally be chipped down more easily than other Pokemon, but that's solved by the fact that those Pokemon usually run Tera Ghost themselves.
What do you think of Ghosts?
However, Ghosts have their flaws. The main competition to the Ghost type is Grass, which is carried solely by Flower Veil Venusaur-Mega (also kind of centralizing). Being immune to opponent stat drops and non-volatile status is extremely valuable for maintaining offensive pressure and bulk. In addition, most base Ghost types suck with their low bulk or low offensive power, with Pecharunt being the sole exception. Because of this, Ghosts can generally be chipped down more easily than other Pokemon, but that's solved by the fact that those Pokemon usually run Tera Ghost themselves.
What do you think of Ghosts?
Another fun way to deal with 'em is aerilate/galvanize. The latter can be part of an hadron engine setup as well, although the limited time is always a bummer.
Aerilate, Galvanize, Refrigerate, and Pixilate are all mostly subpar because it mostly is not worth it to get a 1.2x damage boost on 21.3% of all offensive moves over a 1.5x boost for all physical moves that are not Normal or Fighting (168/339) with Intrepid Sword or a 1.5x boost for all special moves that are not Normal or Fighting (146/339).
In practice you will be stacking STAB and/or tera on your -ate user unless you run two on one team, so it's going to be a 1.8x or a 2.4x multiplier on something from nothing, which is a satisfying stat swing to make an argument for especially when going all in on physical. And the alternative is a notable chance of doing 0 damage, so reducing that is more like a damage boost approaching infinity in the case of fighting a ghost.
Tera Electric Iron Hands Quick Attack vs. Tera Ghost Mew: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Galvanize Tera Electric Iron Hands Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mew: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Hands Leafage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Ghost Mew: 61-72 (15 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Intrepid Sword Tera Electric Iron Hands Leafage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Ghost Mew: 90-107 (22.2 - 26.4%) -- 16.8% chance to 4HKO
Yeah, in practice, I've found the -ates to be a lot less reliable than Intrepid Sword or even Sword of Ruin, mainly because of that less than 21.3% chance (you also have to consider the chance of rolling status moves) of rolling a move that the -ates apply to. Even adding STAB and Tera don't help.
Also, I made a mistake in my earlier post. Since the -ate abilities don't affect Fighting moves, they really only affect 14.28% (57/399) of moves.
Furthermore, I have seen nearly nobody use their Tera type to buff one of their -ate abilities, and I only found people using Tera Electric Ampharos-Mega or one person using Tera Normal Normalize Pokestar Giant (very scary if Ghost did not exist). Tera Ghost or Tera Grass is superior for defense.
Intrepid Sword: (4 * 1.5 + 1 * 0 + 24/192 * 0 (Fighting))/(5 + 24/192) = 1.17
Galvanize: (3.038 * 1 + 10/52 * 2 (Electric) + 42/52 * 2 * 1.2 (Normal) + 24/192 * 0 (Fighting))/(4.038 + 24/192) = 1.288
Galvanize and STAB Tera Electric are better than Intrepid Sword in a vacuum, but with the dominance of Venusaur-Mega Flower Veil weakening Galvanize, the defensive loss of a Tera Ghost, and the forced usage of Iron Hands or Ampharos-Mega, there really are not many benefits from this besides a double Ghost matchup.
Iron Hands also has horrible special defense and Electric is not exactly the best defensive type, only resisting 59 moves.
Furthermore, I have seen nearly nobody use their Tera type to buff one of their -ate abilities, and I only found people using Tera Electric Ampharos-Mega or one person using Tera Normal Normalize Pokestar Giant (very scary if Ghost did not exist). Tera Ghost or Tera Grass is superior for defense.
We are assuming we are fighting against two Ghosts. There are 168 non-Normal non-Fighting physical Metronome moves, compared to 42 Normal physical Metronome moves. 168/42 = 4, so the non-Normal non-Fighting physical Metronome moves are called 4 times more often than the Normal physical Metronome moves. Meanwhile, if the Pokemon is using an -ate ability with STAB boosts and Terastalization (let's assume Electric), then there are now 158 non-Normal non-Electric non-Fighting physical Metronome moves, compared to 52 Normal or Electric physical Metronome moves. 158/52 = 3.038, so non-Normal and non-Electric moves are called 3.038 times more often. There are 10 physical Electric Metronome moves. There are 24 physical Fighting Metronome moves.
Intrepid Sword: (4 * 1.5 + 1 * 0 + 24/192 * 0 (Fighting))/(5 + 24/192) = 1.17
Galvanize: (3.038 * 1 + 10/52 * 2 (Electric) + 42/52 * 2 * 1.2 (Normal) + 24/192 * 0 (Fighting))/(4.038 + 24/192) = 1.288
Galvanize and STAB Tera Electric are better than Intrepid Sword in a vacuum, but with the dominance of Venusaur-Mega Flower Veil weakening Galvanize, the defensive loss of a Tera Ghost, and the forced usage of Iron Hands or Ampharos-Mega, there really are not many benefits from this besides a double Ghost matchup.
Iron Hands also has horrible special defense and Electric is not exactly the best defensive type, only resisting 59 moves.
Happy Labour Day for those who celebrate. The stats for August are here, giving us a full month's look at a world without Toxic Chain, as well as a pleasant surprise I just found out about while writing this post.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-08/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-08/moveset/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt
The battle count rises up a bit to 23259.
August 2024: 1630-weighted top 10 + last month positions:
#1: Mega Venusaur (no change)
#2: Pecharunt (no change)
#3: Mega Heracross (#4)
#4: Ting-Lu (#3)
#5: Mega Ampharos (no change)
#6: Guzzlord (#10)
#7: Mega Sableye (#9)
#8: Necturna (no change)
#9: Mega Gengar (#7)
#10: Blissey (#6)
The more things change, the more they stay the same, with 3 pairs of traded places in the top 10 and Pecharunt still holding its ground. Though despite the higher number of battles, raw Venusaur and Ting-Lu usage has noticeably decreased while Heracross has gained, and of course a major riser like Guzzlord has increased as well, who is now leading with Magic Bounce but still maintains some Magic Guard usage, with Pickup trailing behind. Right outside the top 10 we see some interesting dark horse showings of Pokestar Giant at #11 with 993 (moveset file) uses and Volcanion at #12 with 514 (moveset file) uses. Their main sets seem to be Hasty Pickup Mirror Herb and Brave Specs Lightning Rod with a Venusaur partner respectively.
In the moveset file where the main differences lie, we have a brand new addition of usage stats for each tera type! This is pretty interesting, though I feel like most of the time it's an afterthought if you only plan to tera one mon, but it gives some more insight towards the recent discussion of how many ghosts there really are. Speaking of which, it is worth noting that Ampharos-Mega went from leading in Plus and Magic Bounce last month to now Hadron Engine and Competitive after it was mentioned, also gaining in raw usage alongside Iron Hands.
Just looking at some top picks, Venusaur has 42% Stellar, 30% Grass, 23% Ghost. Pecharunt also has a similar 42% Stellar, followed by 28% Ghost/14% Fairy/12% Poison default. Heracross leads with 60% Ghost and the default 25% Bug with the rest in the single digits. Ting-Lu has 54% Grass and 31% Ghost rep, with 10% default Dark. Surprisingly Sableye leads with 37% Poison over 30% Ghost and 23% default Dark, and Gengar is rather split between Ghost and Stellar both almost at 40%. Guzzlord has 76% Ghost, 15% Dragon (default), and 7% Stellar, Mega Ampharos has 43% Electric/default and 23% Stellar, and Necturna barely has 38% Stellar over 37% Grass and trails with 17% Poison and 6% Ghost. Finally, Blissey is actually pretty split for an Imposter with 48% Ghost, 20% default Normal, 16% Poison, 8% Stellar, and 6% Grass.
As for the viability ceilings (highest GXE peak obtained with a mon), Mega Venusaur remains in the lead with 81, running the typical Flower Veil and Mirror Herb/Weakness Policy (with its former Toxic Chain usage now split between Well-Baked Body, the reappearance of Simple, and more "Other" abilities) and 252 Speed sets winning out again, tied with the much rarer pick of Enamorus-Therian (Delta Stream/Ice Scales/Aerilate with >25% usage, Sharp Break/Covert Cloak/Choice Band/Weakness Policy also around 20%). Following up at 80 we have Mega Heracross, Ting-Lu (without Toxic Chain, has pivotted to Simple/Ice Scales as it was), and the pair of Mega Gallade (running Defiant, Pickup, and even Flower Veil), and Mega Gardevoir (primarily Competitive with Magic Bounce behind). Lastly for 79, we have the ghosts of Mega Sableye (Sablenite is back in the lead...) and Mega Gengar (close between Competitive and Magic Bounce, with some Storm Drain). Checking in on some champions of last month, Dusclops and Type: Null have mostly dropped Magic Guard for Friend Guard and Good as Gold in general. Thanks for your reading.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-08/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-08/moveset/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt
The battle count rises up a bit to 23259.
August 2024: 1630-weighted top 10 + last month positions:
#1: Mega Venusaur (no change)
#2: Pecharunt (no change)
#3: Mega Heracross (#4)
#4: Ting-Lu (#3)
#5: Mega Ampharos (no change)
#6: Guzzlord (#10)
#7: Mega Sableye (#9)
#8: Necturna (no change)
#9: Mega Gengar (#7)
#10: Blissey (#6)
The more things change, the more they stay the same, with 3 pairs of traded places in the top 10 and Pecharunt still holding its ground. Though despite the higher number of battles, raw Venusaur and Ting-Lu usage has noticeably decreased while Heracross has gained, and of course a major riser like Guzzlord has increased as well, who is now leading with Magic Bounce but still maintains some Magic Guard usage, with Pickup trailing behind. Right outside the top 10 we see some interesting dark horse showings of Pokestar Giant at #11 with 993 (moveset file) uses and Volcanion at #12 with 514 (moveset file) uses. Their main sets seem to be Hasty Pickup Mirror Herb and Brave Specs Lightning Rod with a Venusaur partner respectively.
In the moveset file where the main differences lie, we have a brand new addition of usage stats for each tera type! This is pretty interesting, though I feel like most of the time it's an afterthought if you only plan to tera one mon, but it gives some more insight towards the recent discussion of how many ghosts there really are. Speaking of which, it is worth noting that Ampharos-Mega went from leading in Plus and Magic Bounce last month to now Hadron Engine and Competitive after it was mentioned, also gaining in raw usage alongside Iron Hands.
Just looking at some top picks, Venusaur has 42% Stellar, 30% Grass, 23% Ghost. Pecharunt also has a similar 42% Stellar, followed by 28% Ghost/14% Fairy/12% Poison default. Heracross leads with 60% Ghost and the default 25% Bug with the rest in the single digits. Ting-Lu has 54% Grass and 31% Ghost rep, with 10% default Dark. Surprisingly Sableye leads with 37% Poison over 30% Ghost and 23% default Dark, and Gengar is rather split between Ghost and Stellar both almost at 40%. Guzzlord has 76% Ghost, 15% Dragon (default), and 7% Stellar, Mega Ampharos has 43% Electric/default and 23% Stellar, and Necturna barely has 38% Stellar over 37% Grass and trails with 17% Poison and 6% Ghost. Finally, Blissey is actually pretty split for an Imposter with 48% Ghost, 20% default Normal, 16% Poison, 8% Stellar, and 6% Grass.
As for the viability ceilings (highest GXE peak obtained with a mon), Mega Venusaur remains in the lead with 81, running the typical Flower Veil and Mirror Herb/Weakness Policy (with its former Toxic Chain usage now split between Well-Baked Body, the reappearance of Simple, and more "Other" abilities) and 252 Speed sets winning out again, tied with the much rarer pick of Enamorus-Therian (Delta Stream/Ice Scales/Aerilate with >25% usage, Sharp Break/Covert Cloak/Choice Band/Weakness Policy also around 20%). Following up at 80 we have Mega Heracross, Ting-Lu (without Toxic Chain, has pivotted to Simple/Ice Scales as it was), and the pair of Mega Gallade (running Defiant, Pickup, and even Flower Veil), and Mega Gardevoir (primarily Competitive with Magic Bounce behind). Lastly for 79, we have the ghosts of Mega Sableye (Sablenite is back in the lead...) and Mega Gengar (close between Competitive and Magic Bounce, with some Storm Drain). Checking in on some champions of last month, Dusclops and Type: Null have mostly dropped Magic Guard for Friend Guard and Good as Gold in general. Thanks for your reading.
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They removed accounts that don't have GXE from the leaderboards - Metronome is no longer 1500 hell, we have been liberated!
Can we have a serious discussion about banning Hera? It's honestly imbalanced to the point where it's unhealthy in the meta.
CB + Sword Heracross takes out large chunks of HP, and even OHKOs, every time it rolls a physical move. Here's it's damage with some randomly chosen early game, low power, moves. (Note the damage calc says +2, but it counts CB as +1)
These are some of the lowest power moves in the game and it's still able to do a nice chunk of damage. I've seen dozens of times where Double Heracross wins turn 1, before the opponent can even make a move, because both got a STAB or super effective phsycial attack. That's not healthy for a meta.
There's the argument that it gets balanced out with a horrific special, and it can click status moves for 10 turns. But saying they can be unlucky isn't a defense, when getting just average luck can be enough to knock out even the bulkiest mons in 2-3 hits. Plus, Heracross is decently bulky itself and can tank damage. It has comparable bulk to Mega Venusaur, Mega Ampharos, Mega Sableye, and Guzzlord. It also doesn't need any synergy/support so it can run Ghost Terra without any issue at all.
Which leads to my next point that it takes away from the meta, because it can be such a strong standalone mon. We're losing creativity and diversity with it in the meta. Double Heracross is a common team, but you can throw it next to literally any mon and that offensive team becomes better. It takes away incentive to try or make other mons work. Anytime you have an offense team, if you're trying to win, you usually can't justify not using at least one Heracross.
After Hera is gone, Bannette will probably take it's place and maybe that needs to be banned down the line, who knows. But at the very least , getting rid of Hera will make the meta better now.
CB + Sword Heracross takes out large chunks of HP, and even OHKOs, every time it rolls a physical move. Here's it's damage with some randomly chosen early game, low power, moves. (Note the damage calc says +2, but it counts CB as +1)
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 147-173 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 147-173 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Grass Ting-Lu: 116-137 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 25.9% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Grass Ting-Lu: 145-171 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Grass Ting-Lu: 204-240 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Grass Ting-Lu: 174-205 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Grass Ting-Lu: 145-171 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Grass Ting-Lu: 204-240 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Grass Ting-Lu: 174-205 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 121-143 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 85-100 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 15.8% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 290-342 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 85-100 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 15.8% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 290-342 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 131-155 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 164-193 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 57-67 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 196-231 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 164-193 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 57-67 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 196-231 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 197-232 (30.3 - 35.6%) -- 36.1% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 246-290 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 172-203 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 147-174 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- 32.5% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 246-290 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 172-203 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 147-174 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- 32.5% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 68-81 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- 23.3% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 116-137 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Peck vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 68-81 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- 23.3% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Heracross-Mega Bite vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 116-137 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
These are some of the lowest power moves in the game and it's still able to do a nice chunk of damage. I've seen dozens of times where Double Heracross wins turn 1, before the opponent can even make a move, because both got a STAB or super effective phsycial attack. That's not healthy for a meta.
There's the argument that it gets balanced out with a horrific special, and it can click status moves for 10 turns. But saying they can be unlucky isn't a defense, when getting just average luck can be enough to knock out even the bulkiest mons in 2-3 hits. Plus, Heracross is decently bulky itself and can tank damage. It has comparable bulk to Mega Venusaur, Mega Ampharos, Mega Sableye, and Guzzlord. It also doesn't need any synergy/support so it can run Ghost Terra without any issue at all.
Which leads to my next point that it takes away from the meta, because it can be such a strong standalone mon. We're losing creativity and diversity with it in the meta. Double Heracross is a common team, but you can throw it next to literally any mon and that offensive team becomes better. It takes away incentive to try or make other mons work. Anytime you have an offense team, if you're trying to win, you usually can't justify not using at least one Heracross.
After Hera is gone, Bannette will probably take it's place and maybe that needs to be banned down the line, who knows. But at the very least , getting rid of Hera will make the meta better now.
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I think the meta has adapted around heracross in a healthy way. Between imposter blisseys, aerilate, and hard stall with eviolite type null or smth, as well as the spamming of mirror herb, i see this as a healthy adaptation because the one teamstyle most threatened by the raw damage output and STAB types of heracross is flower veil, and indeed heracross HO is one of the few structures that has even a neutral matchup into flower veil. Banning heracross would allow veil teams to get even greedier in their techs, further centralizing the meta around veil. In conclusion I find hera's presence a net benefit. I want to add that none of the 3 teams i listed are exclusively a heracross matchup fish so i don't see a particular unhealthy rock-paper-scissors dynamic forming.
First of all, your damage calculations are wrong because you put +2 and Choice Band, instead of +1 and Choice Band.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 110-130 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 39.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Rock Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 90-107 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- 93.2% chance to 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 87-103 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO
In addition, spending Terastalization on Heracross-Mega on a team with only one Heracross-Mega is not worthwhile because of its frailty. The other Pokemon with Heracross-Mega is usually more defensive and thus more useful to spend the Terastalization on to preserve them for the long run. This means that Heracross-Mega usually does not Terastalize massively suffers from its Flying weakness and is unable to repel Normal and Fighting attacks.
The metagame is not losing creativity with Heracross-Mega. I'd argue that Flower Veil Venusaur-Mega with another Grass Pokemon (Terastalization or not) is far more uncreative and centralizing because of how easy it is to slap on nearly any partner Pokemon with Venusaur-Mega and still have a solid team.
Banette-Mega will not take Heracross-Mega's place if it is ever banned. Banette-Mega is 33% less defensively bulky and 22% less specially defensively bulky than Heracross-Mega.
Well evidently this thing glitched. But, I still stand by point that Hera is imba. If everyone disagrees, so be it. But I'll keep rooting for a Hera ban. Also there's nothing wrong with banning Venu as well. The meta is super centralizing, so if banning a few things opens it up, I don't see the issue.
I don't know if this exists already, but I suggest an implementation of a win rate percentage datasheet for every Pokemon every month in this tier.
Currently, it seems somewhat difficult to make substantive arguments over Pokemon that might just be a bit too broken (such as Heracross-Mega) due to the luck aspect of Metronome Battles almost nullifying damage calculations. A win rate percentage for every Pokemon would provide more information for the council and the playerbase for tiering actions.
Currently, it seems somewhat difficult to make substantive arguments over Pokemon that might just be a bit too broken (such as Heracross-Mega) due to the luck aspect of Metronome Battles almost nullifying damage calculations. A win rate percentage for every Pokemon would provide more information for the council and the playerbase for tiering actions.
There's a few issues with this. First of all, just like with OU and every other tier where you create your own team, ladder winrates all cluster at 50% because that's how the ELO system works - bad teams play against other bad teams. This is further exacerbated by metronome luck which makes the margins much slimmer than in more skill based tiers. Even a great team against a pretty bad team might only have a 60% winrate, whereas in OU it would be more like 90%. This would even *further* cluster the winrates around 50%. Trying to get statistically significant results out of this cluster of near 50% would be meaningless, as the expected variance due to small sample size far outweighs the small fluctuations away from 50% you would see. The reason Randbats gets away with using winrates is that since people don't bring their own teams, the usage rates are flat and evenly distributed across the ladder. And even then only the most played randbats formats can be balanced using winrates, they don't have enough games played for many of the smaller ones.
The win rate percentages could simply just be narrowed down to the top 75-100 used Pokemon in that month with greater weights for higher ELO games to eliminate bad teams.
Intrepid Sword in the ability slot automatically adds a +1 itself regardless of the +1 stage you set, you have to go either one or the other.
Regarding winrates I feel like it would probably not be a viable option, but also the nature of 2v2 teams makes head to head winrates kind of hard to determine for individual mons, though it does remind me of fwqef running mass simulations back in the day between teams with poke-env which is probably a more efficient way to get such stats to argue with.
I've been delayed on my end, so sorry about that, but I'm still here now around the start of October, so let's just pick up the September usage stats and check them out.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-09/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-09/moveset/gen9metronomebattle-1630.txt
The battle count rises again even more to 28472, almost back up to 30k.
September 2024: 1630-weighted top 10 + last month positions:
#1: Mega Venusaur (no change)
#2: Mega Heracross (#3)
#3: Pecharunt (#2)
#4: Mega Ampharos (#5)
#5: Ting-Lu (#4)
#6: Blissey (#10)
#7: Mega Sableye (no change)
#8: Mega Slowbro (#15)
#9: Mega Gengar (no change)
#10: Spiritomb (#37)
While Venusaur retains its top spot, Heracross has actually surpassed it in raw usage this month again. Ting-Lu continues to drop reaching a notable low of #5 as Ampharos overtakes it, while Necturna and Guzzlord barely drop back out of the rankings. Fittingly for the spooky month, Spiritomb barely sneaks into #10 to make its debut into the top 10 (seems to be a double Spiritomb Magic Bounce and Choice Band/Normalium Z split), though it's made a few showings in viability ceilings in 2021 and also reached #12 in October 2020. Some other notable dark horses of the month include (Imposter) Pikachu-Starter making #15 just under Necturna/Hisuian Zoroark/Type: Null/Glastrier and above Guzzlord, who is also kind of a dark horse by usage relative to its placement, along with Iron Hands at #18.
Taking a look at the changes in tera types through the moveset file compared to last time, Grass is actually above Stellar for Venusaur now compared to last month, while Necturna's gap between Stellar and Grass widens even more. Ampharos's wild range of secondary tera types behind Electric all coalesced into Ghost, Sableye is now far ahead with its default Dark tera type at 67% beyond the poisons and ghosts of yesterday, though Pecharunt's tera Poison is actually on par with Ghost now but both still behind Stellar, and Guzzlord has Stellar in the lead by far now over Ghost. Everyone else about stays the same in terms of relative order just based on who I checked around the top. As for mons I didn't mention before, the Pikachu-Starters seem to be going all in on Ghost, and an interesting point is that Slowbro is actually 46% Grass now implying heavy Flower Veil usage, with Ghost straying behind and default Water nowhere in sight, compared to last month with an even Ghost/Grass/Water split. Finally, Spiritomb seems to be all Stellar, which makes more sense than whatever's going on with Sableye.
Going over the viability ceilings (highest GXE of anyone using that mon), there is a huge leading strategy of Download/Beads of Ruin Specs Mega Ampharos and Simple/Scales/Pickup Herb/WP Ting-Lu sharing a ceiling of 84, though neither record each other as the highest teammates so these may not reflect the actual strats used to get them there. I did actually start looking at the ladder for reference today with the GXE change (and to get reranked from a 100 provisional state), and the highest I saw currently was a 79.8% but I guess people can rise and fall pretty quickly.
Following that are Mega Venusaur and Heracross at 82 (Naive and Lonely natures are barely top for some reason? I don't even get it as a teambuilder suggestion just looking at my teams), Hisuian Zoroark at 81 also repping Specs Download, then a four way tie between Necturna (Thick Fat/Flower Veil/Pickup split)/Chromera (Simple/Ice Scales, Clear Amulet/WP) and Regidrago/Regieleki (Pickup Mirror Herb) for 80 (definitely the CAPs and regis paired with each other), rounding out for 10 mons with Imposter Blissey alone at 79. Though I did check 78 and there are 5 ghosts there between Mega Sableye, Gengar, Dragapult, Mew, Blacephalon, and Marshadow which is kind of neat. Thanks for your reading.
ADDENDUM: I decided to figure out why Naive was #1 on Venusaur and it turns out it is actually a default, but only when you're making a team fully from scratch.
If you start with a fresh no move Venusaur from teambuilder, and add Metronome, it suggests Naive. At first if you go to the EV section before doing this then it just doesn't give you a spread.
But once you have Metronome set and leave the team (back to the main teambuilder menu) and come back, the suggested nature becomes Lax.
But also if you go to EVs without setting a move, then moves, then EVs again, then you get a weird spread without SpA.
Finally if you set Metronome in slot 2/3/4, you can keep the Naive suggestion permanently even after leaving and reentering.
Overall this may not seem that game changing if you already set natures manually, but I think it's worth noting that in practice ~20% of random Venusaurs you see on ladder might just be +Speed just because it's the arbitrary default nature.
Just wanted to say I looked at the stats, Slowbro was used around 1000 times and i played at least 400 games last month spamming a Sassy tera grass weakness policy ice scales slowbro on veil -- Tera grass 46% Weakness Policy 54% Ice Scales 67% Sassy 42% usage. The "trend" is just me using my favorite team at a pretty meh GXE
Slowbor Mega is underrated. My judgementJust wanted to say I looked at the stats, Slowbro was used around 1000 times and i played at least 400 games last month spamming a Sassy tera grass weakness policy ice scales slowbro on veil -- Tera grass 46% Weakness Policy 54% Ice Scales 67% Sassy 42% usage. The "trend" is just me using my favorite team at a pretty meh GXE
A 25 BST increase would bring in Blastoise-Mega (less bulky than Venusaur-Mega), Sceptile-Mega (fraud Venusaur-Mega), Blaziken-Mega (definitely broken HO Pokemon), Charizard-Mega-X/Y (better Abomasnow-Mega/worse Ampharos-Mega), Swampert-Mega (very potentially broken with Sap Sipper), Gyarados-Mega (worse Swampert-Mega besides Dark STAB), Greninja-Ash (slightly stronger Blacephalon) and Palafin-Hero (definitely broken, literally just better Heracross-Mega).
Been getting more into metronome battles, what should I keep in mind for effective teambuilding?
So there's a lot of tried and true sets as you can see from the usage stats and sample teams. Generally you can't go wrong with sorting by high BST in the teambuilder and picking out some strong abilities like Magic Bounce and many others. Ghosts are a particularly safe pick against the common Normal/Fighting rolls, but you can also tera into one. STAB isn't too big a deal to focus on, but it is a nice bonus that you can notice.
There are much less viable choices for items in comparison, though Mirror Herb seems like the most generalist option these days, while Choice items are strong for stat stacking but lock you out of multi turn moves.
I would say most people use speed as a dump stat for natures because of its lack of impact and Perish Song choosing who to win being the last to faint, but I have seen some arguments for speed creep being a deciding factor in mirror matchups, and it does feel nice in a scenario where you're both in the red.
If you want to get fancy, there are quite a few ability combos you can use to cover weaknesses or provide unique support from another slot like Storm Drain/Desolate Land Mega Camerupt or the notable Flower Veil archetype, and many builds can aim to counter other meta sets. But overall, I still stand by my stance from 2018 in that you can really just have fun and start by using whatever you like to see how it works out, getting experience from there.
This is really helpful, thank you!
i have obtained an honest win with a pair of truant slakoths, i can now move onto something more difficult and obscure
