Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

1825 stats are pretty bad for a picture of the meta, Corviknight is the #3 mon and Dondozo is the #9 mon. Sample sizes are just too small and all the mons you even mentioned still being very different from the spl usage shows that the more accurate usage for a few mons is just by chance and not 1825 being more helpful.

The tournament stats are even smaller of a sample size. The overall point is that the premise to compare Tour, 1695, 1825, while good, comes with a lot of flaws that should be considered which I dont think the op made. I dont think its as easy as X mon has lower usage cause ladder hasnt caught up, consistency is important. Another way to look at the data could be win percent. Corviknight for example has a whooping 67.27% wr in SPL. While its #3 position in ladder comes from stall teams, its also been shining with Defog against non dengo hazard stacks, and ID Brave Bird sets.

My pov remains that its better to try to judge from self experience, and use whatever data as help, rather than to directly draw conclusions from it. Hence why I mentioned Pokemon like Scizor, Weezing-Galar, Ninetales-Alola, Manaphy, and Ribombee.
 
Ok so to somewhat revive jirachi talk, I replaced kingambit with specs dragapult and now we're off to the races again

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2323067776-j07csaujvybnyv83t33ld8tw6ibnv3dpw

Mimikyu stardust had me stressing with inteleon turn 1 but we brought it back. Up 1760 and climbing. Dragapult improves zamazenta and tusk matchup while being neutral or slightly better into ogerpon too

Roaring moon still a problem, more to come on that later
 
Place your bets folks, Gliscor or Roaring Moon?
Roaring Moon. I haven't even seen people seriously talking about Gliscor, VFTC thread is pretty much all Moon. And rightly so, TB Fairy autosweeps certain teams that are otherwise good.

Just want to point out that if we had banned Tera Blast, we wouldn't have to worry about TB Moon...



Gardevoir... breaks into the 1700s?!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2318232116

If I can get this team to at least 1850, I'll write up an RMT. I finally have two alts above 1700, so you know I gotta keep climbing.

(Don't use Quaquaval btw, I've since changed that slot to a superior water.)
 
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My unsolicited opinions on our suspect potential culprits:

Gliscor can be hard to break, typically mandating ice stab or coverage on any offensive team, but that isn't a bad thing to have in general. I find the SD variants to be much less threatening (I live in the 1600-1800 range right now) since I am already packing taunt/encore or phasing for the myriad of set up sweepers in the tier. The toxic/spike/knock/protect sets I find the most tedious, similar to garg in that they have so much bulk and utility that they can cripple 2-3 mons before they get lost and that makes the rest of the game difficult. Just generally annoying and not interactive but not inherently broken. If Kyurem or Waterpon were to leave, then the conversation changes.

I have lost to bulky moon sets after tera recently, specifically roost variants that just become hard to kill even with priority. Hard to gage the tera on preview and if I guess fairy and it's flying or ghost or vice versa you can lose on the spot. Similar energy to gouging fire. I'm not sure if it is just feasting on the current popular ting-zama-pech/ghold teams but as people experiment more it can definitely become more problematic. I'm not sure if it would really relieve that much more builder stress as a lot of what manages moon (priority, phasing, status) is already deeply engrained in what you need to pack in gen 9.

Finally, I was wondering what mixed Kyurem sets people are liking. This is what I have used but wondering if there are other ideas out there:

Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 180 Atk / 76 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
 
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https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/quaquaval/

Am I overlooking something or has no-one written a guide for Quaquaval? For a starter mon that has been a pillar of UU all gen its weird there are literally no guides for it.

I've played a bunch of aqua step, sweeper Quaq, I'm curious to try spinner Quaq, presumably with roost. Does anyone have any advice on how this is usually built?

It feels like it doesn't have enough attack to make knock or aqua step threaten the ghosts, are you supposed to run wave crash? Or is it stabs + roost? Or is close combat + knock + roost an option?
 
Place your bets folks, Gliscor or Roaring Moon?
Moon probably, Gliscor is more of an annoyance than anything and moon definitely feels more recent dominance wise

So I think moon is definitely the route to take

If its not either it could be a surprise 3rd kyurem suspect but that feels like it will happen after moon
 
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/quaquaval/

Am I overlooking something or has no-one written a guide for Quaquaval? For a starter mon that has been a pillar of UU all gen its weird there are literally no guides for it.

I've played a bunch of aqua step, sweeper Quaq, I'm curious to try spinner Quaq, presumably with roost. Does anyone have any advice on how this is usually built?

It feels like it doesn't have enough attack to make knock or aqua step threaten the ghosts, are you supposed to run wave crash? Or is it stabs + roost? Or is close combat + knock + roost an option?
It's banned in UU bro, they took the guide for it down

+ in OU it doesn't have a significant enough presence or niche to actually warrant an analysis
 
Am I overlooking something or has no-one written a guide for Quaquaval? For a starter mon that has been a pillar of UU all gen its weird there are literally no guides for it.
Its not legal in UU anymore, and its D rank on the VR which means it will get an analysis if it stays but only in a very long time (probably over a year ngl). Before D-rank mons like Quaquaval will be written, every mon higher on the VR needs an analysis and with how long the process takes, a lot of mons that were already written will need to be rewritten as the old analyses will be at best not very helpful and at worst contain egregious misinfo about the meta due to being written a long time ago.
 
As the inevitable Moon suspect approaches, my hottest take is that Dragonite is more banworthy than Roaring Moon. It can do everything that Moon can, but with the added benefits of:
-being impossible to OKO without Icicle Spear Kyurem or Weavile
-being ungrounded
-having +2 priority
-having (arguably) a better defensive typing
-not suffering from 4MSS
-not relying on Tera in order to break
 
As the inevitable Moon suspect approaches, my hottest take is that Dragonite is more banworthy than Roaring Moon. It can do everything that Moon can, but with the added benefits of:
-being impossible to OKO without Icicle Spear Kyurem or Weavile
-being ungrounded
-having +2 priority
-having (arguably) a better defensive typing
-not suffering from 4MSS
-not relying on Tera in order to break
You do realize a triple axel would wipe it off the map too right? Weavile would cook Dragonite with a triple axel, the fact you said icicle spear and not triple axel is funny since one is way more used than the other
 
As the inevitable Moon suspect approaches, my hottest take is that Dragonite is more banworthy than Roaring Moon. It can do everything that Moon can, but with the added benefits of:
-being impossible to OKO without Icicle Spear Kyurem or Weavile
-being ungrounded
-having +2 priority
-having (arguably) a better defensive typing
-not suffering from 4MSS
-not relying on Tera in order to break
i mean.... there are a couple downsides.

- arguably an even bigger tera merchant than moon, and that's saying something
- can't even knock off boots in the event chance it gets hardwalled by smth like tera'd pecharunt
- low speed means it can get locked down by ival encore, moon has no such issue
- natural immunity to spikes is nullifed by having to wear boots for multiscale anyways
- everyone and their mother is tera ghost for zama anyways, making espeed not the best
 
You do realize a triple axel would wipe it off the map too right? Weavile would cook Dragonite with a triple axel, the fact you said icicle spear and not triple axel is funny since one is way more used than the other
you're entirely misunderstanding what bro is saying for the "um actually", he specified icicle spear kyurem because that's the only variant of kyurem that can OHKO dnite, he was generally stating Weavile BECAUSE basically every Weavile can cook dragonite since every real set runs taxel
 
As the inevitable Moon suspect approaches, my hottest take is that Dragonite is more banworthy than Roaring Moon. It can do everything that Moon can, but with the added benefits of:
-being impossible to OKO without Icicle Spear Kyurem or Weavile
-being ungrounded
-having +2 priority
-having (arguably) a better defensive typing
-not suffering from 4MSS
-not relying on Tera in order to break
Dragonite suffers from 4MSS just as much, if not more, than Roaring Moon does (and the 4mss Moon has is overstated and honestly a weak argument). It can never fit enough moves to beat enough checks in one build, and has a much lower initial power. Even at +1 it isn’t threatening OHKOs on much of anything healthy, and since it rarely runs “STAB” (Espeed is pseudo stab due to Tera) that lack of initial power even at +1 is further pronounced. Its starting speed is also comparatively middling and it tends to be relied on for defensive duties too which means it won’t have an easy time just sweeping as it’s often dragged in to sponge some kind of hit, knocking out multiscale.

Because it comes in and out of battle more it also means that it’s more prone to being chipped by helmets or risking status from Zap/Molt. Teams tend to have far more soft checks stacked to deal with it just by building well and they tend to overlap, unlike Moon who has very specific counter play that doesn’t have nearly as much overlapping answers.

Dnite is a great Pokémon and a borderline S- rank, but it’s not broken or close to it. Moon meanwhile is a blight on the tier that chokes team building due to its Tera variance and threat level.
 
A suspect seems likely for later this or earlier next week.
Great. I was just about to come back and ask if anything was happening yet.
Place your bets folks, Gliscor or Roaring Moon?
People are finally starting to realize that Roaring Moon has underrated bulk and more sets than people thought. Better late than never. Here's hoping Roaring Moon finally gets what he deserves.

Gliscor annoys people, but it isn't really a problem like that. I'll be upset if we see a third Gliscor suspect before even a third Kyurem suspect.
 
Great. I was just about to come back and ask if anything was happening yet.

People are finally starting to realize that Roaring Moon has underrated bulk and more sets than people thought. Better late than never. Here's hoping Roaring Moon finally gets what he deserves.

Gliscor annoys people, but it isn't really a problem like that. I'll be upset if we see a third Gliscor suspect before even a third Kyurem suspect.
Moon physical bad in itself is quite bad. It's the combination of EV investment in bulk and Taunt/Roost and other STAB moves like Knock off/Jaw lock that makes it surprisingly hard to kill if Moon can exploit, especially with Tera Fairy. Uninvested moon is quite frail.
 
As the inevitable Moon suspect approaches, my hottest take is that Dragonite is more banworthy than Roaring Moon. It can do everything that Moon can, but with the added benefits of:
-being impossible to OKO without Icicle Spear Kyurem or Weavile
-being ungrounded
-having +2 priority
-having (arguably) a better defensive typing
-not suffering from 4MSS
-not relying on Tera in order to break
First of all, specs bolt (21% of bolts ran specs this past month) OHKOs with draco, but I won't be nit-picky about that. I don't know that some of your points are necessarily true, mainly the last two. I think that dnite does somewhat suffer from 4MSS, having to choose between EQ, Ice Spinner, ESpeed, and Roost. Even if you use it as a full on sweeper and forgo roost, it can still struggle against tusk even with ice spinner because tusk breaks multiscale with a rapid spin and then outspeeds and KOs with Ice Spinner. This, of course, can be avoided by tera-ing, but then that negates your last point. That's also a good segue into the notion that DNite relies on tera to break less heavily than moon. I have no idea what you're talking about. Moon can routinely break or wear down teams without tera-ing, and I can easily argue that DNite is more of a tera hog than moon. One of the biggest things about moon that makes it so tough, IMO, is that even though it doesn't have too much set variety but messing up on the moveset prediction can lose you the game. It also has so much more immediate power than DNite, and can even do a lot of work against stall with the taunt sets while DNite is useless against stall (except for the loaded dice encore set, which also takes rocks so its not even amazing against stall). Furthermore, the insanely powerful knock off that moon provides is so important it cannot be understated, another thing dnite lacks. For example, neither DNite nor Moon likes attacking into moltres because of potential burn, but moon can at least knock off its boots to force progress while doing damage. DNite takes the burn and is now useless.
There are also other issues with DNite that prevent it from being as broken, and you just only cherry picked the good factors. Firstly, its slow. Considering it typically runs adamant, even at +1, Dragapult outspeeds and wisps. You also get outsped by IVal at +2, and IVal also routinely runs tera ghost which avoids ESpeed. Second of all, which I already touched on, it DOES have 4MSS. Not saying that its terrible or that Moon doesn't, but if you don't run roost than you lack the longevity which it loves. And if you do run roost, than losing either Ice Spinner or EQ means that you cant break a lot of common defensive mons.
It's not that DNite isn't strong- its just not banworthy because it's not problematic. Not nearly as problematic or unhealthy as Moon at least
 
Honestly i'd be hard pressed to call whatever moon has going on as 4MSS. Within any given set you know pretty much exactly what you want out of it and it's mostly just decisions on whether you want to wipe half its checks off the face of the earth with tera blast or wipe the other half off with jaw lock or some dumbass tech like that. You're always running knock off because if you didn't it's like you actively want to lose, and if you want to mess around with the new doohickey bulky sets you bring dragon dance and roost, otherwise you bring DD and 3 attacks of your choice (u-turn or something) or whatever 4 attacks CB runs.

Moon is pretty well-defined as more of a cleaner than anything, you bring it in when your opponent doesn't have fairies anymore and clean house (or bruteforce them with coverage if your opponent is dumb enough to let you set up too many ddances) (tera steel metal claw? new meta development???)

The other flaws moon has are pretty fair judgements though. The guy is a massive tera hog undoubtedly (the espeed merchant is more of one though. dont even joke lad) and literally any fairy type can check him reasonably well + my glorious bait king unaware clef absolutely dogs on this guy like lebron in a paralympics game.
 
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