Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Zacian Ban @ Post #671)

[ant4456]

Completely disagree here, this tier was never dominated by a centrally OU playerbase, most of the early people were simply inhabitants of stunfisk, the great majority of proper competitive players we have gotten are Ubers players that came by later on. Also note that the average OU player that might play this meta from time to have not been getting suspect reqs as you can see through the people who got them over our past suspects.

This is a fair assessment, I'm an outsider so I'm probs just out of touch that was just my thoughts bc I saw a lot of pro-Zacian stuff and a lot of disappointment, and I felt like there may be a correlation there

 

[Imperial]

Ngl idk what some of Zacian Squad expected, I would consider myself an outsider and here's the gist IMO:

-This is a tier that was literally made up (conceptually) by OU players for OU players who had wet dreams about playing OU + Magearna (to them it is OUBL)

-Then you have the Ubers heads who want it to be tiered like Ubers (so Ubers UU), (a lot of the vocal people you see in these threads are this category)

-There are a kazillion more OU players (of various skill) than Ubers players.

Ubers has always been and will always be significantly more niche because the way it is tiered is simply less appealing to a general audience (and that isn't a knock against it, that's fine)

-Tiering results are always going to look more like OU shit than Ubers shit.

Reading the Zacian thread every argument against it being banned is basically that it's broken except that it isn't because technically you can out-offense it and it doesn't remove skill, which is an argument which works to defend Ubers shitters like Calyrex-Shadow in SWSH. But most of the people playing this tier, by the nature of what it is and the history of the concept, would NEVER, EVER have fucked w/ shit like Caly Shadow in SWSH Ubers. For the vast majority of people who came here for OUBL, they'll vote like it's OUBL, and due to that it'll remain OUBL. In fact I think if there was a vote to kill Ubers usage effecting the OU mons in Ubers (ie. Lando T in UUbers) would probably pass with like 90%+.

this tier was made by some guy on reddit wanting to use dialga
it was then populated by most of these reddit people wanting to use their own favourite legendary
then (around chompy's first video) a few more serious players arrived for various reasons
after becoming official (or just before) lots of the ubers/ou players joined and thus begun the conflict in this identity.

anyway on zacian, whats done is done, but the defensive counterplay was there; moltres, zapdos, alomomola, solgaleo and magearna force tera, lugia, terapagos, unaware trio of clef, quag and dozo. not many of these are hard stops, but they get the job done, zacian is a much smaller problem without intrepid. Revenging was also a viable alternative; deoxys revenged, chi-yu revenged, wshifu and pfin revenge post tera, max pdef tina literally eats +3 pr, the multiscale twins, and teraring on your own front. i, personally, can't understand what made people think zacian was so oppressive when the counterplay felt so diverse, but this is just my own experience with building and playing.

as for the comparison to caly-s in swsh, caly-s in swsh is balanced lol. the closest comparison is koraidon in sv, and i think that they're both fine so /shrug. either way, drawing comparisons to surrounding tiers is fruitless, as this is uniquely ubers-uu and should really be treated as such (and this philosophy also shows why i disagree with certain decisions made.)

 

[Finchely]

Ngl idk what some of Zacian Squad expected, I would consider myself an outsider and here's the gist IMO:

-This is a tier that was literally made up (conceptually) by OU players for OU players who had wet dreams about playing OU + Magearna (to them it is OUBL)

-Then you have the Ubers heads who want it to be tiered like Ubers (so Ubers UU), (a lot of the vocal people you see in these threads are this category)

-There are a kazillion more OU players (of various skill) than Ubers players.

Ubers has always been and will always be significantly more niche because the way it is tiered is simply less appealing to a general audience (and that isn't a knock against it, that's fine)

-Tiering results are always going to look more like OU shit than Ubers shit.

Reading the Zacian thread every argument against it being banned is basically that it's broken except that it isn't because technically you can out-offense it and it doesn't remove skill, which is an argument which works to defend Ubers shitters like Calyrex-Shadow in SWSH. But most of the people playing this tier, by the nature of what it is and the history of the concept, would NEVER, EVER have fucked w/ shit like Caly Shadow in SWSH Ubers. For the vast majority of people who came here for OUBL, they'll vote like it's OUBL, and due to that it'll remain OUBL. In fact I think if there was a vote to kill Ubers usage effecting the OU mons in Ubers (ie. Lando T in UUbers) would probably pass with like 90%+.

Ngl idk what you expected the responses to this post would be. I would consider myself an insider and here's the gist IMO:

- Your post was literally made up, since you're an outside, because you have little knowledge on the inner workings of the community.

- Then you have the UUbers mains come and tell you you're wrong

- We have alot more knowledge on our tier and community than you, because we've been here and you haven't.

Your words have always been and will always be significantly more disrespectable because you make assumptions on the community.

- Tiering results have for the most part and probably will continue to look a little more like Ubers than OU.

You're making just absolutely massive assumptions about our community, without ever having actively participated or ever taken the time to actually try to understand us. You're just throwing your unsolicited and extremely misguided opinion at the wall in hopes that it'll stick, but evidently it hasn't. We're not OUBL, and the most passionate members of our community ensure that we are not OUBL. We have more respect for ourselves and the integrity of our tier, than you've ever even thought about giving to us. We'd never even consider having a vote to disregard Ubers' usage of OU mons. And even if there somehow was it'd fail with 0% of qualified voters voting for it since anybody fraudulent enough to actually campaign for it wouldn't have the slightest modicum of skill to attain reqs through the relentless gatekeeping they'd face.

 

[Celeste]

The dog is gone! I for one am happy, and also really enjoyed the tour put on yesterday (Thank you mozonite)!

I know there are people disappointed in this result and while I get why, i'm really excited to see the new direction this tier is headed in as this ban is gonna shake up a lot. With more obvious things like Palkia Origin and Arceus Dark already feeling pretty strong both in that tour and just in my earliest thoughts in the builder as well. I really just hope that this means we will get more direction in what to do about issues in the meta because to me it felt like the past few months have been dominated by no one being able to agree on an issue and even if the Zac ban isn't perfect for everyone hopefully it means going forwards we've established a precedent for how the community wants to handle threats like it.

 

[avaluggsimp]

It's refreshing to actually see change in this tier. No matter how this ends up being for the meta, I'll be happy.

I'm also happy that we've set a precedent for the tier. With all the discussions about "is this tier an Ubers metagame or not" I think we've set ourselves apart from Ubers in a healthy way. (Let's be honest, Ubers wouldn't have banned Zacian)

Anyways, excited for the new meta and what the community response will be.

 

[Poosh_i]

0 discussion two weeks post zacian ban is insane, does anybody have any thoughts?

 

[Finchely]

will probably make a post after uufpl w1 ends .

 

[Celeste]

will probably make a post after uufpl w1 ends .

same

 

[Bazingatron]

0 discussion two weeks post zacian ban is insane, does anybody have any thoughts?

I got you dawg.

In this current post-Zacian ban meta, there has been a rise in special attackers. Without Zacian around to threaten things physically, the need for physical bulk has become less important. This has resulted in the downfall of Moltres, the decreased use of will-o-wisp in comparison to thunder wave, and mons such as Magearna shifting from phys-def builds to special-def builds. However, despite the shift to special bulk, there have been no particular developments in physical attackers to take advantage of the change in meta, with Arceus Poison and Gouging Fire being the main two physical attackers seen in the meta. There has also been a rise in shed tail teams, but that is presumably a result of unknown metas resulting in people using relatively unchanged HO teams to take advantage of unoptimized experimentation.

As for specific mons that have become threats, Palkia-Origin and Spectrier are the two current front-runners for most dangerous mon. Palkia-Origin runs a Twave/Sub/Rend/Pump set that allows it to threaten mons with high damage and status if allowed to set up substitute. Answers to this mon are minimal, as the few mons that are faster than it are too fragile to be able to force a switch. Magearna is currently set to be the best answer due to its special bulk and advantageous typing, but it would be easy for Palkia-origin to start running Fire Blast in place of Twave if Magearna becomes too prolific. Spectrier, on the other hand, threatens mons through high speed and naturally increasing its special attack through Grim Neigh. The current set runs something like shadow ball/draining kiss/nasty plot/a fourth move of choosing. There are very few normal type mons prominent in the meta at the moment, and the one that is faster than Spectrier, Cyclizar, is done in by Tera Fairy draining kiss. The mon that is best suited to counter Spectrier at the moment is Terapagos with dark pulse, but it does not see much use due to the role of bulky special attacker being taken by Palkia-Origin.

My general thoughts on this meta is that it seems okay so far. There is experimentation with mons such as Grafaiai and Primarina to counter act current threats, but no major developments at this time. There is a mild concern that the only team archetype to see play and experimentation so far is HO, but the rises and drops to and from Ubers at the end of the month should provide a large shake-up to all archetypes that will encourage exploring new possibilities for team composition.

 

[FishyRoads]

0 discussion two weeks post zacian ban is insane, does anybody have any thoughts?

I have made a post on the viability rankings a week ago that sums up my initial thoughts

 

[Celeste]

Happy day before shifts days! With another big change in the meta likely incoming i figured id drop some of the early things if noticed ab the post zac meta for fun as I think we've learned a lot of interesting things.

Arceus Dark and Palkia Origin, are they broken?
While this depends a lot on who you ask, I firmly think both of these are not broken. Both of these are obviously still good, but I don't think nearly as demanding as I expected going into this meta. Darkceus is still a huge builder threat, but I've found that more often then not it can be managed without explicitly tooling your draft to never lose to it. It's weakness to hazards, and other chip damage from things like burn, or the fact it can get shut down by paralysis makes it have a difficult time hitting the field, and still a hard time setting up as the darkceus player will have to manage speed ties, or staying alive vs things like arc poison. Palkia is a bit more of a problem, but its counterplay hasn't changed much since the Zacian ban. While Zacian was easily the most consistent revenge killer for it in the tier, the main way to manage Palkia is still mainly focused in out playing it, and managing your speed + hazards to limit its prolonged impact on the game, without zacian it just has a bit less in its way. I'd say its at best the 3rd best pokemon in the tier right now, with Arc Poison and Giratina being interchangeable for the top two spots.

Balance is back baby!
With one of the generally strongest attackers that was able to tool itself to beat pretty much whatever check it wanted gone, defensive teams are now much more able to diversify their defensive tools to help manage this metas threats, and with a lot more varying options too! Magearna is now more safely able to choose between spdef and physdef sets as is Giratina, and mons like Garganacl feel more more splashable with its ability to apply such consistent pressure to a huge variety of mons with rocks and salt cure. The offensive tools of Balance are now a bit less restricted as well, with old tools like Lando I, Deoxys, etc still being good but certain tools don't feel nearly as required, putting niche answers to stronger mons is less required and really helps make it such that balance has the tools to diversify how it handles the meta at large in my opinion. As again, I do not believe dedicated checks to Darkceus and Palkia origin are required on teams. They can certainly be put to good use, but not having one does not a bad team make in my opinion.

Biggest (niche-ish) Winners
Lots of mons that had a lingering presence/were falling off are really starting to at least make waves on my own person radar, so I wanted to go over a few of my own personal ones and what I think they bring as valuable tools to the metagame rn! (and no im not going to talk about primarina)

Okidogi
Okidogi already existed pre zac ban as a dedicated arc dark answer with a surprising capability to take on much more of the metagame, and it only gets better with these changes. It still threatens Darkceus, but is able to be a consistent source of knock off that is able to threaten things like Giratina, Terapagos, with the only "safe" switch in to it basically being arceus poison. It's help back by its insane weakness to arc poison as well as the fact it leaves you very open to Landorus, but its utility is something that I think is far more useful going forwards.
Personal ranking: B

Dialga-Origin
Once a VERY niche and pretty eh mon, I think Dialga has been set up to take more advantage of its special bulk in a much more specially focused meta as a rock setter and phaser, that is still able to apply a lot of offensive pressure notably annoying things like Giratina, CM Arc forms, Terapagos (which I will get to later as while it was good before for sure I think its having a huge resurgence in viability). It has good merit as a lead still, but is also able to be used effectively as a reactive tool to slow down a lot of offensive threats due to its bulk.
Personal ranking: B-

Iron Bundle
Who would have thought that when you remove the nigh ubiquitous speed tier of Zacian that the next fastest mon suddenly becomes more viable? Bundle's offensive tools plus access to encore and flip turn help it be both an offensive tool and utility option, being able to sacrifice damage for longevity with boots or opting for Life Orb to score more consistent damage vs Arceus and Giratina.
Personal Ranking: B+
Terapagos
Okay, I know this mon was pretty good for a while but towards the end of Zacian meta it had a pretty notable drop off in usage, as it was not able to hold up to a lot of the offensive pressure being thrown at it from all directions. Now, it has a lot more room to run a much wider breadth of sets in my opinion, with its offensive CM sets being good as always but the potential for phasing/maybe even HO lead sets being something it looks to be a lot more confident in now when it is far less likely to be immediately traded out.
Personal Ranking: A

Anyways, thats some scattered thoughts on the meta. Hope you enjoyed reading and I'm excited to see where things go posts shifts, I bet Mewtwo doesn't last a week.

 

[Bazingatron]

Initial thoughts on post-shift meta: It feels so much better with Mewtwo and Grimmsnarl. Hyper Offense feels much easier to pilot now that there is the formula of Grimm screens into mon with set-up move into set-up move into damage. Furthermore, Palkia-O has seemed to be kept in check with the presence of prankster taunt Grimmsnarl, although Spectrier is still very strong. Additionally, terapagos is seeing more play to check Spectrier and Mewtwo, and Arceus-Dark is seeing more usage for the same reason Arceus-Poison is seeing less: Mewtwo. Overall, it is very good that we are seeing a change in which mons are viable.

However, the shift in which archtypes are viable is more concerning. I have only seen HO, Offense, one sun team, one rain team, and one stall team. The addition of Mewtwo as a strong wall-breaker, the loss of Hatterene for sun, and the loss of Dondozo for stall means that multiple archtypes have fallen apart, reducing the meta to an arms-race of sorts where we try to make HO more hyper. This issue, unfortunately, cannot be solved with bans as the issue is with the mons that have left UUbers as opposed to the ones that have joined UUbers. While there are no mons that I recommend to bring these archetypes back, I would instead implore council to run some sort of teambuilding event starring these archetypes, or to promote the Great Cores thread to encourage more experimentation.

As for ladder engagement, between the ladder events and meta shake-ups, the ladder seems more active than ever. While there are still slow periods, they seem less frequent and slow compared to pre-Zacian ban times. Additionally, the userbase seems to have appreciated both a less-stagnant meta and more frequent events. As a result, sub-OU mon usage has dropped to normal levels (i.e. being used for legitimate means as opposed to manipulating usage stats). I believe the best thing to do for engagement post UUbers-Superbowl is to run another event similar to it, but with different events on ladder (say a special day-long ladder rush, or a GXE challenge), maybe a UUbers World Cup. Either way, as long as events keep happening on ladder and the meta continues to develop, things should continue to get better for Ubers UU.

 

[Finchely]

Wanna start up some discussion and also I have some thoughts of my own to share:

I think that the meta right now is okay... ish. The chief issue I often run into in the builder right now is Spectrier. This thing is a pretty terrifying midgame breaker/endgame cleaner, due to it having the incredibly potent base 130 speed tier, alongside the unresisted combo of shadow ball and dkiss. Previously it wasn't seen as much of an issue as it never ended up doing enough damage with leftovers, but it hits extremely hard with a life orb. Sticky Webs also further augments its speed tier to just about the best one in the tier, cause now virtually nothing outspeeds it asides from niche options such as scarf Landorus and boots Bundle. I've also seen CM spectrier variants pop up here and there. While I'd say that they aren't usually as good as the typical lorb Nasty Plot version, they've caught me out a few times simply because Spectrier starts taking a whole lot less damage from stuff like Magearna Fleur Cannon and Terapagos Starstorm.

Overall I think that Spectrier has come out as one of the tier's biggest winners from the Zacian ban, which is something I don't think anyone really expected. Zacian was pretty great at beating out spectrier, especially since people weren't using the lorb sets much back then. But now that lorb has gained a lot more traction, and there's no longer a base 138 speed monster with a free +1 atk and 115 defenses to scare out spectrier, I've found that it's become an extremely troublesome element in the metagame.

I have other thoughts on the metagame, but I don't want to overwhelm the discourse with too many topics to pick at so I'll share them later. Looking forward to hearing y'all's thoughts!

 

[FishyRoads]

Overall I think that Spectrier has come out as one of the tier's biggest winners from the Zacian ban, which is something I don't think anyone really expected.

I called this btw

Okay Spectrier, mon is pretty good, is it broken? A bit, honestly think it is pretty manageable, especially compared to the other offenders of offensive team


I've said this multiple times and apparently it is an unpopular opinion, the biggest offender for HO's dominance is Hamurott, the layers it sets are way too free while doing way too much damage, it causes many very dumb interactions, best case scenario you have a magearna and are able to volt into something faster, that will usually still cost you a spike and lots of chip on te revenge killer due to ceasless + sucker punch, although it is not uncommon to have games you are forced to give up more than one spike accompanied with lots of chip damage, it enables HO way too well.


Some say this is a "outplay" mon, my issue with Gouging Fire is how it simply ignores lots of speed control with bulwark, in the current metagame, many teams have to rely on priority to survive agianst HOs, Gouging shuts down that form of counterplay a lot, I believe it is much more of an issue than Spectrier purely due to that (thunder wave loses to substitute so it is also not consistent)

Honestly these are my main offenders right now, i believe Roaring Moon is fine and to have reasonable counterplay, i also believe webs are overall fine and not OP (though it might just be my very high priority move usage making me biased).

 

[Finchely]

I definitely do not enjoy what samurott does to this tier, but I feel like it's not the chief problem. While it's a great mon especially on lead for HO, I still feel like the most problematic metagame presences would still pose issues even if they didn't have samurott to support them.

Okay Spectrier, mon is pretty good, is it broken? A bit, honestly think it is pretty manageable

I'm curious what you mean by this though, could you elaborate?

 

[FishyRoads]

I definitely do not enjoy what samurott does to this tier, but I feel like it's not the chief problem. While it's a great mon especially on lead for HO, I still feel like the most problematic metagame presences would still pose issues even if they didn't have samurott to support them.


I'm curious what you mean by this though, could you elaborate?

I would say that while by some standards, spectrier is broken, I do think it is manageable (through Palafin and faster pokés (deoxys and Iron Bundle), many sets that lose to Garganacl, Clodsire and such, lots of Arceus formes that can help against it, generally having a hard time setting up into HO) It has exploitable weaknesses, especially when comparing it with other threats that define the offensive landscape of the meta

 

[Jusfordlolz]

I would say that while by some standards, spectrier is broken

So, while Spectrier has certainly become more potent, I don't see it as outrageously broken(yet).

The funny thing that I noticed with Spectrier is that it can LARP the stall breaker arceus set where D-kiss functions as a makeshift(albeit taunt-proof) Recover, Calm Mind, Shadow Ball (over Judgement), and Taunt.

But coming back to some checks, Id say Palafin and scarf Rapid Shifu come to mind first

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 285-336 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (Meaning LO recoil kills it after)

Alternatively, Scarf Urshifu Surging Strikes also works well
252+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 309-369 (90.6 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

You also have the pokemon that naturally outspeed it in the form of Deoxys and Iron Bundle(Granted a CM set probably can handle these if Spectrier has enough health and SpD boosts).

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 398-468 (116.7 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 312-367 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

While Palafin/Shifu are checked by Giratina and Bundle and Deo having fundamental issues(in the form of being choice locked and frail respectively), the question becomes would you want to use 2 ghost types in your team? especially when you consider that Dark types have been gaining more prominence owing to the threat that is Mewtwo. Now you could use Toxapex in your team to check these pokemon (but now you are using a Toxapex on your non-stall team LOL). Conversely also consider that you could have teams which feature Palafin/Shifu with a Bundle/Deo, where Palafin and Shifu can safely pivot to these faster mons to threaten your team.

However, since Spectrier only needs 3 moves mandatorily in the form of Nasty Plot/Calm Mind, Shadow Ball, and Draining Kiss, it can easily slot in Substitute as a 4th move to tackle these threats. However, do keep in mind that these sets prefer leftover or boots more than life orb, especially because of the meta moving more in the direction of hazard stacking.

However, when considering the substitute set, it still is threatened by a DD Kyurem-White Set, while Tera Fairy D-kiss does not kill without a boost, meaning Kyurem can always setup one DD in front of a LO Spectrier which is behind a substitute

+1 252 Atk Kyurem-White Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 352-420 (103.2 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Spectrier Draining Kiss (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-White: 307-367 (78.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You also have other priority such as Hamurott's sucker punch which can threaten it if it doesn't have Tera

252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

From a defensive perspective, I do see Garganacl as an interesting meta option to handle Spectrier. Tera Poison could be seen as a 3rd viable tera type on Garg(over Fairy or Water) for a set that completely shuts down Spectrier (However, the question now becomes if poison is really a better tera type for it over Fairy?)

Nonetheless, while certainly more viable and threatening than before, it is yet to be seen if Spectrier could be considered a banworthy threat.

 

[Celeste]

So, while Spectrier has certainly become more potent, I don't see it as outrageously broken(yet).

The funny thing that I noticed with Spectrier is that it can LARP the stall breaker arceus set where D-kiss functions as a makeshift(albeit taunt-proof) Recover, Calm Mind, Shadow Ball (over Judgement), and Taunt.

But coming back to some checks, Id say Palafin and scarf Rapid Shifu come to mind first

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 285-336 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (Meaning LO recoil kills it after)

Alternatively, Scarf Urshifu Surging Strikes also works well
252+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 309-369 (90.6 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

You also have the pokemon that naturally outspeed it in the form of Deoxys and Iron Bundle(Granted a CM set probably can handle these if Spectrier has enough health and SpD boosts).

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 398-468 (116.7 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 312-367 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

While Palafin/Shifu are checked by Giratina and Bundle and Deo having fundamental issues(in the form of being choice locked and frail respectively), the question becomes would you want to use 2 ghost types in your team? especially when you consider that Dark types have been gaining more prominence owing to the threat that is Mewtwo. Now you could use Toxapex in your team to check these pokemon (but now you are using a Toxapex on your non-stall team LOL). Conversely also consider that you could have teams which feature Palafin/Shifu with a Bundle/Deo, where Palafin and Shifu can safely pivot to these faster mons to threaten your team.

However, since Spectrier only needs 3 moves mandatorily in the form of Nasty Plot/Calm Mind, Shadow Ball, and Draining Kiss, it can easily slot in Substitute as a 4th move to tackle these threats. However, do keep in mind that these sets prefer leftover or boots more than life orb, especially because of the meta moving more in the direction of hazard stacking.

However, when considering the substitute set, it still is threatened by a DD Kyurem-White Set, while Tera Fairy D-kiss does not kill without a boost, meaning Kyurem can always setup one DD in front of a LO Spectrier which is behind a substitute

+1 252 Atk Kyurem-White Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 352-420 (103.2 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Spectrier Draining Kiss (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-White: 307-367 (78.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You also have other priority such as Hamurott's sucker punch which can threaten it if it doesn't have Tera

252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

From a defensive perspective, I do see Garganacl as an interesting meta option to handle Spectrier. Tera Poison could be seen as a 3rd viable tera type on Garg(over Fairy or Water) for a set that completely shuts down Spectrier (However, the question now becomes if poison is really a better tera type for it over Fairy?)

Nonetheless, while certainly more viable and threatening than before, it is yet to be seen if Spectrier could be considered a banworthy threat.

I want to respond to this because while i disagree with the opinion that Spectrier isn't broken, I think a lot of your reasoning doesn't hold up when looking outside of the vacuum of a 1v1 matchup.

Palafin
Yeah, Palafin is an ok check against it as a revenger. Urshifu as well but I have separate points for that one. When it comes to fast, strong Pokémon I dont think that available means of revenging them (no matter how consistent it might be) alone can be a strong argument. While Palafin has seen some success as of late, Its not been the most common mon especially with how much it struggles into Giratina, Palkia Origin, and its hazard weakness when facing more bulky teams (which lean hazard stack as of now). Another issue with relying on revenging as your way of handling a threat like Spectrier is that most often it will be simply functioning as a trade, something H/O builds that Spectrier is on don't mind, and when facing a Jet Punch can even abuse with Roaring Moon and even more niche tools like Dragonite. This isn't to say Palafin doesn't have a good matchup into some H/O teams cause it 100% does, but looking at it in a vacuum as a neutralizing factor for Spectrier ignores a lot about building around Palafin (and how unpopular it is outside of certain players) due to how it creates a reliance on its priority for effective speed control, being the main way to handle Spectrier for the teams I've seen it used on recently.

Urshifu Rapid-Strike
Again, in a vacuum Urshifu is a fine way of managing a Spectrier, but also suffers from the similar issue as Palafin in that it struggles a lot into other top tier meta threats. I do quite like this mon as a scarfer but it is also exceedingly not popular right now with Ocean being the only one I've recently seen load it in tour play, I think due to the fact that the style of team it fits on tends to struggle into the more dominant H/O styles right now, even if Shifu itself can manage. It has the same issues with Palafin (or any choiced attacker for that matter) in that the moves it clicks may inadvertently allow for the rest of the team to get the free turn they want, which is a very dangerous game to play. And overall for both it and Palafin, these are B and B- tier mons respectively, who have niches but are not really competing with the biggest threats in the tier right now, and unless something changes to make them more viable they don't provide the best argument for Spectrier not being broken.

I'd also like to point out you undersold an arguably better Spectrier answer then either of these in Deoxys, which is much easier to fit on teams and has many more good matchups compared to Pfin and Shifu, especially when its much more splashable on non H/O.

Kyurem White
I don't really know why you mentioned this, as
1. Kyurem white is not the most popular H/O mon right now
2. it relies on the assumption that the Spectrier and Kyurem will be both +0 when first meeting
Both these together don't really make a convincing arguement as to how Spectrier under control. Not only would a Spectrier not be likely to be a teams answer after a +1 Kyurem white gets a kill as it would probably pretty clearly die, but if the Kyurem-White is the Spectrier answer it will likely have to take on a Spectrier that is already at least at +1, and Kyurem Itself may be weakened to hazards. Your vacuum scenario where Kyurem and Spectrier are in a 1v1 does result in Kyurem winning, but I think looking at more specific interactions like this should be done with more nuance.

Samurott is a fine shout but, most non lead Samus are Scarf anyways so a great revenging option regardless. Sucker also assumes Spectrier hasn't terad

Garganacl
Garganacle is an interesting one, since its pretty known that the spdef set can't really handle Spectier. I think tera poison could be interesting, but it leaves you unable to use Garganacl's Tera as an effective panic button in response to Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, Arc forms, Lando-I, etc and instead leaving you still vulnerable to 3 of the mons I just mentioned, all of which are part of some H/O teams running around that you would want your Garganacl to also be able to manage if needed.

In closing I think I see where you are coming from with this as Spectrier is not without checks, however I think you should be looking at these checks still with better reference to the overall meta and common interactions, because that is a huge limiting aspect of every Spectrier check you discussed. I believe that Spectrier leans broken due to the fact that at the very least it is able to consistently trade, and is able to easily threaten clean sweeps if given 1 free turn.

 

[Finchely]

I was gonna make a much longer forum post in response to justfordlolz's post when I had the time, but Celeste went and said most of what I was gonna say. I don't have really much extra, but there are a few points that haven't been made yet which I think are pertinent to the discussion though.

Sticky Web
Sticky web is arguably the best archetype that Spectrier fits on rn, as it makes just about every scarfer fail to be able to threaten out Spectrier. With webs, both Scarf Ursh and Deoxys go out the window as viable revenge killers.

Screens
Screens is alright rn imo not meta-defining but no slouch at all either. Spectrier also fits right at home on this HO archetype, as screens massively increase its bulk. In particular, I've seen substitute screens Spectrier as a method of evading Garganacl's Salt Cure, after which Garganacl is nearly helpless to deal with the massive amounts of boosts Spectrier can then accumulate. And even outside of screens, Substitute in general also allows Spectrier to evade Sucker Punch.

 

[FishyRoads]

METAGAME REPORT
It is I, Fishyroads, giving all those interested a brief rundown on trends i have been noticing from games i have watched, those of UUFPL, SUUberbowl and especially UMBD as I actually keep up with it

Priority
Priority users have seen a major rise recently, Palafin, Deoxys, Dragonite and especially Extreme Killer Arceus have seen plenty of tournament usage recently, as they help a lot against the common Hyper Offense of the tier, some of them fit in those HO structures, further increasing in value, one could also mention the popularity of Grimmsnarl here

Sticky Web
To absolutely no one's surprise, Sticky Web maintains a spot as one of the main HO styles in the current meta. Scary Pokémon, such as Spectrier and Arceus-Ice only get scarier with the support of Sticky Web, the premier setter is still that of Araquanid, although some have dabbled with the alternate choice of Smeargle, more on that fella later

Screens
Screens has seen great use recently as a form of HO powered by the recently dropped Grimmsnarl, it is particularly popular in Suuberbowl, being used to great effect during the tournaments first round. Common screens teams you will see include the likes of DD Taunt Roaring Moon, DD Gouging Fire and CM Arceus Ice

Personal Experimentation
This section is less that of what the current metagame is like and more of recent things i have explored to success and that i believe are viable, Grassy Terrain is able to get lots of Grassy Seed value with Pokémon such as Spectrier and Double Dance Magearna, whille Rillaboom posesses valuable tools in Knock Off and priority. Dragon Dance Kyurem-White has also shown me great results recently, shoutouts Frito i shamelessly stole that set like 2 months ago, tweaked it and have been using it ever since, very few things can actually stop it, those being Steel Types, which are vulnerable to Fusion Flare and Garganacl, which is usually occupied by Kyurem's teammate Spectrier. I have come to believe in Cloyster after its recent performance (it has won 3/3 tournament games, two mine, one from good friend Jusfordlolz ), ty for showing it to me and Mozonite who made me want to use it. It fits in certain HO structures, especially those of Screens and Shed Tail and is surprisingly strong for a Pokémon resident of the NU Ban List

Other Stuff
Smeargle has been seen some surprising success as a Sticky Web lead in UMBD, it is able to use many tools, notably Spore, Nuzzle, Memento, Ceasless Edge and Stone Axe, not much to say, keep doing your thing Xu9. Early UUFPL saw lots of Lokix usage, something i thought would hold up, when it sadly did not, OceanicGamer would be disappointed, it does work as a Priority having Poké, although it seems it has not been the preferred prio user, being overshadowed by its fellow[/SIZE]

I did not intend for it to be this long and i did not cover fat, uh, TLDR, fat is transitioning into a more hazard stack based playstyle with many having Hisuian Samurott. GN UUbers

 

[Finchely]

Can't comment on Cloyster cause I haven't encountered it yet, but I think that Arc-Ice is kinda busted icl.

For basically all of UUbers history, Magearna has been the premier ice-resist of the tier, since the tier's water resists tend not to hold up to scrutiny. Solgaleo has also just shown itself to be a rather middling pokemon as well. And Magearna. After all, the only relevant ice-type in the tier was Kyurem-W, and Magearna just needed to be able to switch in on an Ice Beam and threaten a Fleur Cannon back. But Arceus-Ice has come in to basically completely screw up this dynamic.

Arceus-Ice mainly runs 2 sets: the CM Taunt set, and the CM Earth Power set. Neither of which Magearna can beat, despite being more or less the only switchin to ice-type judgment that the tier really has. Garganacl can work as a soft check... sort of. Arceus-Ice can get forced out by salt cure chip, but Garganacl does not enjoy eating neutral judgments, or even Earth Powers. It also does not enjoy getting taunted when it tries to recover. The issue further compounds when Garganacl is also being relied upon as the team's Fire and Ghost resist, aka gouger and spectrier check. The only ways I've found that I can beat Arceus-Ice with is setting Stealth Rock early, and keeping up offensive pressure so as not to even give it a chance to start going. The issue I have with this however, is how disproportionately this harms balance teams more than any other archetype, due to the fact that balance staples in Giratina and Landorus get hit by Judgment, and because Balance can't always be applying offensive pressure.

Arceus-Ice also greatly benefits from the two dominant types of HO rn, being webs and screens. On webs, Arceus-Ice has an unparalleled speed tier and offensive counterplay amounts to incredibly tight play to try and kill it with priority, with the defensive counterplay being really shaky as I've established. With screens, Iceus might as well lose any detriments of its awful defensive type, since a 720 BST monster under screens is nigh unkillable. Good luck with offensive counterplay when it just won't die. And of course, it's a wonderful abuser of Tera. Tera ground makes its earth powers truly terrifying, and tera water means that Chi-Yu and the already shaky check of Gouging-Fire become setup fodder.

I previously stated that I thought Spectrier was the most broken mon in the meta, but recently Iceus has begun to take hold of far too much real estate in my head. Partly because they're both pretty great together. Iceus breaks down Magearna and Garganacl, which can allow Spectrier to really go ham in an endgame.

I don't really have a proposal on what should be done just yet, but I want to hear people's thoughts on the mons.

 

[Celeste]

I feel like giving my thoughts on everything on the survey, so here we go! This will be in order of when the mons appeared, and then some extra things i think should be on the survey as well/overall meta thoughts (wanted to do something more detailed then my survey response for fun)

Mewtwo
​

Mewtwo is something I thought initially would be a pretty broken addition to the tier, but as things settle down I feel like its honestly been one of the healthiest changes in recent history. Mewtwo's speed tier sitting comfortably above Arceus, power, and movepool let it be this meta's most successful "Swiss Army Knife", as it can (and has) run a large variety of sets that all support teams in different ways. This versatility without any single set being completely overwhelming allows Mewtwo to work well on basically any sort of team you want it on in almost any role. It can effectively break with Plot sets (life orb included or not), can run supporting moves like Knock Off, Taunt, Will-o, and T-Wave, and can even pair that with bulkier spreads to let it stick around longer. As I said I don't believe any of these sets are inherently broken/unhealthy, and are most often broadcast on team preview allowing for players to figure Mewtwo out at least a bit, and the consequences for a wrong guess aren't too drastic. It can still wield things like Tera Ghost to shut down E-Killer arcs or offensive teras to break through tankier mons, but this isn't anything unheard of when comparing to other common offensive mons. Mewtwo is definately at least A+ tier, and overall provides a lot of positives with practically no negatives in my opinion.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you support tiering action on Mewtwo?
1

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Spectrier
​

Spectrier is one of two very obviously broken aspects of H/O paired with another mon I will discuss later (in my opinion of course), and Spectrier does this with relative ease and just one main set. It shares the same speed tier as Mewtwo, trading the versatility for sheer offensive power and sweeping potential. The only question about Spectrier is what the fourth move is, because its practically guaranteed to have Plot, Shadow Ball, and Draining Kiss with Tera Fairy. The fourth slot can pretty comfortably be any of Taunt, Sub, or Disable (with some other interesting options as well). The fact that it is so simple yet still often has outs against counterplay meant to slow it down (spdef Terapagos, spdef Garganacl, getting predicts into tera clicks) while getting a special attack boost often off of minor mistakes in play is what makes it fit the "broken" category specifically. However I don't see it as unhealthy or a strongly negative part of the tier, as compared to many other setup mons on H/O its lack of boosting speed can leave it more vulnerable to revenge killing, and to make the most progress it often has to lose the ghost type that keeps it steady in the face of many priority users in the tier. At it's core I see Spectrier as a slightly more broken "skill check" mon compared to some other mons in the survey. It may have cases when it can just win with no counterplay, but that will often be the case with H/O mons and not something I see as inherently bad. The bad aspects of Spectrier are when it is able to circumvent its counterplay by punishing slightly sub-perfect play with game ending kills, but I also don't think it does that enough at a higher skilled level to warrant action. I am just kind of neutral on this one getting tested.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you support tiering action on Spectrier?
5

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Arceus Ice
​

This is the other thing on this survey I think is the definition of a "skill check" mon, that is just a lot more punishing then many other CM arcs due to the surprising amount of flexibility it has due to how much minute changes like its Tera type can alter a matchup. However I think its weaknesses (mainly to phasing and its natural weaknesses as an Ice type) make up for its ability to run away with games if someone doesn't know how to manage it or simply doesn't have the tools. H/O can position around it to limit it from even getting started through aggresive plays with mons like Gouging Fire and Tera on their other pieces, and more balancey tools should still have consistent access to phasing, hazards, and speed control that can apply pressure and keep Iceus from spiralling out of control. It has more variety then the other main CM arc in Arc Electric, notably being able to run Mono Stab freeing up a slot for Taunt, Agility, or coverage moves. However I still think due to its weaknesses it finds itself as a generally very strong part of the meta but overall a healthy piece that just requires competent play/building to manage on a game to game basis.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you support tiering action on Arceus-Ice?
1

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Arceus Poison
​

I don't have as much to say about this other then the fact that it is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier right now doesn't make it a candidate for action in my eyes, Giratina is basically mandatory and Arc Poison still has to manage the flurry of Status and Phasing prevalent in the tier, while often being outpaced by a lot of other sweepers when it itself isn't in a sweeping position. We all know its good so i wont go into all of that as much since none of that is particularily controversial. I think some of its sets are a bit underexplored due to how consistent the E-Killer and DD sets are, but beyond that yeah this thing is chill.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you support tiering action on Arceus-Poison?
1

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Shed Tail
​

Shed tail is without a doubt the lest consistent and generally least effective H/O style in the tier right now. It has some really big supporters, but I think it's own success is based much more on the skill of the opponent then the skill of the player using Shed Tail. In the past few months in tour play I have seen Webs. Screens, and Hazard based H/O be a viable means of trying to take out a stronger player in a skill imbalance. I have seen shed tail flip some matchups, but it does so much more rarely given how much more I've seen people attempting to make it work in SUUberbowl and UMBD (I think it has come to one UUFPL game). While other H/O aims to have passive conditions give them free turns/an advantage, Shed Tails reliance on the Shed Tail mon itself getting value and the substitutes being up in the first place means that this teamstyle has a much more defined lose condition, and I have consistently seen higher level players take advantage of that. Its gimmicky and annoying at times, but not actionable.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you support tiering action on Shed Tail?
1

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Grimmsnarl
​

Screens are def good right now, but I don't think they are actionable either, and honestly I think Grimmsnarl in particular is the 3rd strongest H/O lead around rn (Samu 1, Araquanid 2). I do think it has made screens a lot better, but I don't think it has any broken or unhealthy aspects that would constitute action and I'd be interested to hear the perspective of someone who thinks otherwise.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you support tiering action on Grimmsnarl?
1

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THINGS I WANT TO SEE ACTION TAKEN ON

Roaring Moon
​

The fact this wasn't a part of the survey was pretty surprising to me, as it is without a doubt the most volatile and unhealthy aspect of H/O right now. It's huge variety of sets it can use by changing Tera types, its coverage moves, adding options like Taunt or Roost, etc can make deciding how to manage your resources to handle a late game Roaring Moon really difficult. I think it can be manageable but it is a bit too inconsistent of a threat to answer for me to confidently say it is healthy right now.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do I support tiering action on Roaring Moon?
Id say a solid 8. Would I vote ban? I'm unsure, but I think a test would be worthwhile.

---

META OPINIONS

On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you believe the metagame is?
8

I have some issues with the health and balance right now but through my time in UUFPL, UMBD, and SUUberbowl I find myself consistently enjoying the meta. I think there is a lot of fun in the tier right now and it is balanced enough that while sometimes I have found myself in a matchup that is just unwinnable on preview (about twice in the last lil while) its not remotely frequent enough to take away from my enjoyment of this tier.

On a scale of 1-10, how balanced do you believe the metagame is?
6

H/O is definately a little overtuned right now, and if Roaring Moon isn't bannable I don't think there is any one part of this meta that is genuinely too out of control that is fixable. UUbers is definately not a "balanced" tier right now, but I'm also not overly distraught about the state of the tier and am excited to see where things go regardless.

Thanks for reading, and I'm looking forwards to seeing the community views from the survey.

 

[Finchely]

This ain't gonna be the most professionally done post since It's late and I'm tired, but I know that i'll forget if I don't get it done now. Thankfully, I don't get paid to do any of this so technically I don't have to do anything professionally haha joking.


This thing is hilariously strong in the best way possible and I think it is one of the few things keeping HO from being just the best archetype in the tier rn. Particularly the boots Nasty Plot set. Huge fan icl. I think it's the best M2 set by actually. being completely immune to any and all entry hazards means that Mewtwo can actually leverage its pretty decent bulk in order to pretty consistently get a nasty plot once per game. And once M2 is at +2, HO can struggle to deal. Especially webs. Boots np M2 eviscerates webs which really just gets decimated by fast mons that are unburdened by the entry hazard. I think this mon is great and honestly the most "broken" sets (mostly just lorb) are not that broken imo cause they just do not fit in that well in the current meta. They don't get opportunities as easily and damage themselves too easily to properly leverage their bulk. Lorb only rlly fits on screens imo, but screens already vulnurable to spikes and m2 is just killing itself even faster. This mon ain't a problem I hope to see it stay.

This thing is not as bad as I once thought it to be. It's still annoying af tho and I dislike its presence especially on webs. The lorb set puts up stupid numbers if you give it a chance which means that u gotta finesse it right. But that's not an impossible ask. I very rarely see a game where Spect truly robs a game, and most of them are deserved imo. The worst things I have left to feel about this pokemon tho are that it's too good at debilitating certain special blobs in the tier, as well as speed-tying M2. Spect trading into walls is not in and of itself a horrible thing, but it feels pretty oppressive when its paired with like 1 or two other things that were held in check by that mon you just traded into. The other thing about speed ties is that very often HO isn't running a mon faster than Mewtwo, and spect is the next best thing. Most HOs can get by on ekiller + Spect as pretty good speed control, but Mewtwo comes in and fucks up this dynamic. So when a HO is pushed against the wall, I've seen more than a few cases of Spect being sent in to gamble the speed tie. Now this is a precarious position, cause If spect wins the tie, that's absolutely massive. But in the mid to late game when this scenario often happens, a balance team isn't always prepared to easily switch into a spectrier at that point. So you have this really awkward situation that I don't really like. Not too keen on banning spect cause it doesn't actually feel broken enough, but imo this is the thing I would absolutely do away with for the sake of tier health if I didn't have to abide by stupid tiering policy framework stuff.

My thoughts on Arceus-Ice aren't too much different from Spect. This thing is a bitch ass mf to deal with but is also a bit of a skill check. Rocks weakness is kind of damning on top of spikes weakness, and successfully getting up rocks is massively rewarding should u do it. This thing is absolutely a Tera demon tho icl. Tera Ground EP CM pulls some nasty numbers and has mamoswine coverage, while Tera Water Taunt makes stuff like encore and roar cease to be an issue and also gouging fire gets screwed over even more than it usually does. That said, CM arc-ice is a mon that is best at robbing games in the mid to end game after things have been chipped for it, so that it's not wasting so many turns trying to get to +bajillion to ohko its checks from full. The issue here is that it's very feasible to have hazards up by the time an opposing team is properly softened up, and Arc-Ice becomes significantly easier to KO. Something else I've also come to realize recently that has helped a lot in dealing iwth Arceus-Ice is the presence of BOOTS NASTY PLOT MEWTWO WHOOOYIPPEEEE. This thing never takes chip damage until you let it take chip damage, and can absolutely eat a +1 Judgment probably even +2 judgment if its an HP invested arc-ice. After which you can nasty plot and now Psystrike is threatening goob damange. You don't even necessarily need to Nasty Plot tho cause if you chip Arc-Ice down enough, Mewtwo outspeeds and psystrike ignores SpD boosts. IN conclusino I think this mon is not a huge problem anymore but it's still annoying but tbh it just warrants more boost np m2 i can't lie.


Idk this mon probably should've been swapped for something else on the survey. Arc Poison is not broken has never been and probably never will be. Giratina is one of the best mons always has been and probably always will be. Outrage Arc-Poison is kind of meh and also not a great move imo. Full disclosure for transparency's sake: council does not get very active when it comes to the creation of tiering surveys. There were only a few ppl who responded to the ping with what they wanted on the survey, so I just threw it all on cause there isn't actually a downside to putting something on a tiering survey. I don't expect this mon to crack an average of even 4.

:shed-tail:
I don't think this thing is particularly broken, esp since I think whirlwind Lugia is really good rn. But it's annoying for sure. It punishes lazy play really hard and kind of is just fishing for free turns against ppl who haven't fought it b4. Chucked this on the survey cause recently there were ppl crying for action on it and it's always been contentious given its cheese-ey nature. This here is def another case of "it's not broken so i don't feel comfortable banning it, but also I'd totally ban ts cause it does nothing positive for the tier".

Not entirely sure how to feel about grimmscreens just yet. On the one hand I think Grimm is a stupid annoying setter that's annoyingly good at providing free turns to sweepers. On the other hand, it feels like it has a super losing matchup against Samu-H spikes teams, particularly the HO ones. As the meta is right now, I think that grimmscreens are kind of a fish for balance teams since in my experience those are the ones that suffer the most vs grimmscreens. On these teams you can afford to put turbo greed stuff you wouldn't be able to get away with elsewhere cause now your sweepers have kind of crazy bulk, and as a result can tear through balance teams which are often designed in such a way that the defense works well-enough short term so that the offense picks up and starts picking off the opponent's offense. But this dynamic doesn't work nearly as well when your own offense is having a tough time bc of screens. Grimmscreens are by no means broken imo their matchup vs lead Samu-H HO is pretty awful imo, but I do not like their presence in the tier probably even more so than Shed tail and Spectrier, due to how much more it effects the overall state of the meta and shifts the equilibrium of how much viability each team archetype has.

And now onto the secret last topic that wasn't actually on the survey.

I can see it for sure. The number of permutations within the DD set is kind of difficult to bear in the builder. In particular, taunt is pretty damning for stuff like Giratina or various encore Pokemon. The roost set is alright, but I haven't really seen a game where roost moon performed better than if it had just a standard third coverage. The issue I find with roost is that imo it doesn't actually help all that much vs the most consistent counterplay vs rmoon, being espeed. Rmoon has a pretty good spdef stat but pretty bad def stat, and Espeed is really instrumental in limiting the amount of damage rmoon can do before it dies imo. The biggest way I can think of where roost rmoon steals a game is where the opponent is operating under the assumption that the rmoon does not have recovery and tries to slowly chip it down, only to find it has roost and then collapses because they had no other way of dealing with it more immediately. This in my opinion is eh, cause it sounds like a symptom of rmoon beating up a team that frankly was not terribly prepared to take on rmoon anyways. Again I think that taunt is the bigger deal and lets rmoon get more free turns which is always great for it not so much the opponent. Oh I guess tera ghost sets haven't popped up yet but they could happen now that my opps know how much I like to use espeed to beat rmoon. Simply diabolical. Oh yeah and also webs and Hamu-H HO tends to have pretty good tools to deal with rmoon imo. Rmoon has just barely enough bulk + typing to set up, but spikes begin to really start eating into that. Webs also completely screw up Rmoon's speed and makes it a lot more difficult to sweep. Mmq on HO also is pretty damning to Rmoon since you get the free 1 phaze if it clicks anything other than knock, and then it's lost its booster. If it clicks knock, then its risking getting ohkoed by play rough. It can also Tera to eat the play rough but Play rough + Shadow Sneak, or even just eating a curse begins to really eat into its HP leaving it vulnurable to revenging. This is kind of why I think that HO is almost the most consistent playstyle rn, cause it most readily has the tools to beat itself. Boots Mewtwo being the 1 thing keeping HO from exploding everything ofc ilysm boots m2. Definitlely up for suspecting this mon tho I think it comes the closest to actually touching broken territory from all the mons on this list. Tots should've put it on the survey. Not gonna send out a whole new survey what's done is done, but I'll be sure to monitor discussion to hear what the rest of the community thinks about rmoon.

 

[OceanicGamer]

Okay my turn to put my survey thoughts!! Also, what I put on the survey may differe slightly from what I put here. I won't be writing as much as other posts because then it'll just be a repetition



Mewtwo

I don't particular find Mewtwo to be unhealthy. As Celeste said earlier it can do so much without being too overbearing, and while it is for sure it is very strong, I do think it is just a net positive for this tier.



Spectrier

I think this mon is lowkey a bitch, it can be extremely frustrating to play against, especially when Sticky Web is up. It is so so strong, and the worst part is that it's last slot is versatile as well. Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, Draining Kiss and what? Wisp ruins Arceus trying to live one and revenge with Earthquakde, Taunt ruins Terapagos and Substitute can make it even harder to slow down. However, this being a skill check mon is something that is absolutely true.



Arceus-Ice

Arceus-Ice is like Arceus-Dark just with a better offensive type. It's mono coverage is really good, but unlike Arceus-Dark it doesn't completely thud into the extremely common Tera Fairy running around. Tera Ground EP is an amazing set, giving it perfect coverage while also ruining one of the best Ice-resists, being Magearna. Tera Water/Ghost/Poison Taunt is a personal favorite of mine, which can be frustrating for defensive teams to take down, and even Double Dance Tera Ice can shred unprepared teams with ease. It's an amazing Tera abuser, however Arc-Ice has a weakness to the infamous Stealth Rock, meaning most times it will be starting a rampage at 75%. Also, as stated by Finchely earlier, Boots Mewtwo is an excellent offensive check to it, as well as Boots Encore Bundle being annoying for it. I do think this mon is a bit annoying, but I also do think the metagame has enough tools to keep it in check... now give it Triple Axel...



Arceus-Poison
Bruh exists. Lmao xd why is bro here.



Shed Tail

I personally like Shed Tail, during the suuberbowl I spammed the daylights out of it. However, Shed Tail is quite unconsistent, with the it's low tournament success displaying this. While Cyclizar is decent for this role with its speed and Taunt, as well as Regenerator, I just think using a different type of H/O is safer, such as Hamu or Webs.



Grimmsnarl

Screens are strong for sure, but I don't think neither it or Grimmsnarl should have action taken against them. The prevalence of Samurott-Hisui is really a pain in their side. This may seem weird, but remember that Samurott-Hisui carries Encore. This mean Grimm gets locked into one screen, or Play Rough which is abusable AND 95% of the time Hamu gets a Spike. Besides that, Grimmsnarl often loses a lot of its health during the beginning stages of the game, especially if it clicks Taunt into an attack (skill issue!).



Roaring Moon



How did this not make it on the survey????? This thing has 414 attack before Booster Energy, STAB Knock Off and Outrage, Earthquake for Magearna, Roost, Taunt, and too many Tera types viable. Look at my goat Celestes post for more.