Somewhat unhelpfully, what I keep thinking of for how I'd handle Falkner's team relies on post-gen 5 content. Being able to mega-evolve Pidgeot is self-explanatory, but he could also really use Talonflame (first early-route bird to be a serious threat in battle) and/or Kilowattrel (defensive answer to Electric on a bird body type). I guess we just need a new PWT in Champions?
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
i dont mind that the gsc teams are borked. they were created on the philosophy of being a direct sequel to gen 1 and an expansion pack to kanto. the philosophy of every region being its own thing with its own pokedex only really started after gen 3.
the problem is that hgss didnt fix shit. lets be real even the diehard hgss fans arent having nostalgia over bugsys kakuna and metapod, or chucks 2 pokemon team
the problem is that hgss didnt fix shit. lets be real even the diehard hgss fans arent having nostalgia over bugsys kakuna and metapod, or chucks 2 pokemon team
So, decided to post Johto rosters reimagined by me. 2 main goals:
1. More Johto Mons.
2. More difficulty but without being excessive.
Falkner's team:
-Pidgey
-Natu
-Delibird (with Peck and Mud Slap, no Present, which would be a level-up move, but at like level 15)
Explanation: This guy doesnt use any Flying type Mon, he uses Birds. So, things like Zubat, Togetic or Skiploom wouldnt work. Noctowl is too bulky, so Delibird seems right. It makes easier to use Cyndaquil in GSC, since the TM is Mud Slap.
Bugsy's team:
-Pineco (with Spikes).
-Spinarak
-Shuckle (with Berry)
-Scyther (lead in HGSS)
Explanation: Basically, a showcase of Johto Bugs. Ledyba is so pathetically bad, I am leaving it out. Shuckle looks hard, but since it has no recovery and no offensive power, its more an annoyance than actual threat. Both Quilava and Bayleef beat it easily.
Whitney's team:
-Clefairy
-Nidorina
-Miltank
Explanation: 3 Mons only, since one is the dreaded Miltank. She used Nidorina in the anime, so it works here to prevent Machop from sweeping.
Morty's team:
-Haunter
-Misdreavus
-Noctowl
-Gengar
Explanation: Misdreavus is an unused ghost. Noctowl is a nocturnal bird that fits on ghost theme.
Chuck's team:
-Primeape
-Granbull
-Heracross
-Poliwrath
Explanation: 3 Fight Mons + 1 tough Mon that fits.
Jasmine's team:
-Magneton
-Sudowoodo
-Skarmory
-Steelix
Explanation: Jasmine used to be a Rock type leader, Sudowoodo is a remnant of that. It prevents Fire Mons from easily sweeping her team.
Pryce's team:
-Jynx
-Ninetales
-Sneasel
-Dewgong
-Piloswine
Explanation: Pryce is old and wise. At his high age, he should in fact own 6 Mons, but since he is not last leader, I am giving him only 5. Ninetales is not due to the Alola form, it just fits his theme of being old and wise.
Claire's team:
-Arbok
-Dragonair
-Dragonair
-Dragonair
-Dunsparce
-Kingdra
Explanation: Strongest Gym leader has a full team, even though half of it are Dragonairs. Dunsparce is awesome and draconic enough, so is Arbok.
Rival's team:
-Sneasel
-Ampharos
-Golbat (Crobat in Kanto)
-Alakazam
-Porygon2
-Starter
Explanation: More Johto Mons than before. Originally was going to give him Lanturn for Surf... but Sneasel learns the move.
Will's team:
-Jynx
-Stantler
-Slowking
-Girafarig
-Exeggutor
-Xatu
Explanation: Elite Four need to have 6 Mons. Champion just has to have more power. Stantler is a future psychic Mon that fits here.
Koga's team:
-Qwilfish (with Spikes)
-Hypno
-Venomoth
-Muk
-Scizor
-Crobat
Explanation: Hypno is a creepy Mon that uses dirty tactics, Scizor is an armored ninja, like Koga.
Bruno's team:
-Hitmontop
-Steelix
-Hitmonchan
-Ursaring
-Hitmonlee
-Machamp
Explanation: Evolved Onix and added an angry muscular bear.
Karen's team:
-Umbreon
-Vileplume
-Octillery
-Murkrow
-Gengar
-Houndoom
Explanation: She says you should try to win with your favorites and its the type of person who would like Octillery.
Lance's team:
-Gyarados
-Nidoking
-Lapras
-Aerodactyl
-Tyranitar
-Dragonite
Explanation: No longer a Dragon or Flying type expert, just a powerful and diverse trainer. Also has an actual Johto Mon now.
1. More Johto Mons.
2. More difficulty but without being excessive.
Falkner's team:
-Pidgey
-Natu
-Delibird (with Peck and Mud Slap, no Present, which would be a level-up move, but at like level 15)
Explanation: This guy doesnt use any Flying type Mon, he uses Birds. So, things like Zubat, Togetic or Skiploom wouldnt work. Noctowl is too bulky, so Delibird seems right. It makes easier to use Cyndaquil in GSC, since the TM is Mud Slap.
Bugsy's team:
-Pineco (with Spikes).
-Spinarak
-Shuckle (with Berry)
-Scyther (lead in HGSS)
Explanation: Basically, a showcase of Johto Bugs. Ledyba is so pathetically bad, I am leaving it out. Shuckle looks hard, but since it has no recovery and no offensive power, its more an annoyance than actual threat. Both Quilava and Bayleef beat it easily.
Whitney's team:
-Clefairy
-Nidorina
-Miltank
Explanation: 3 Mons only, since one is the dreaded Miltank. She used Nidorina in the anime, so it works here to prevent Machop from sweeping.
Morty's team:
-Haunter
-Misdreavus
-Noctowl
-Gengar
Explanation: Misdreavus is an unused ghost. Noctowl is a nocturnal bird that fits on ghost theme.
Chuck's team:
-Primeape
-Granbull
-Heracross
-Poliwrath
Explanation: 3 Fight Mons + 1 tough Mon that fits.
Jasmine's team:
-Magneton
-Sudowoodo
-Skarmory
-Steelix
Explanation: Jasmine used to be a Rock type leader, Sudowoodo is a remnant of that. It prevents Fire Mons from easily sweeping her team.
Pryce's team:
-Jynx
-Ninetales
-Sneasel
-Dewgong
-Piloswine
Explanation: Pryce is old and wise. At his high age, he should in fact own 6 Mons, but since he is not last leader, I am giving him only 5. Ninetales is not due to the Alola form, it just fits his theme of being old and wise.
Claire's team:
-Arbok
-Dragonair
-Dragonair
-Dragonair
-Dunsparce
-Kingdra
Explanation: Strongest Gym leader has a full team, even though half of it are Dragonairs. Dunsparce is awesome and draconic enough, so is Arbok.
Rival's team:
-Sneasel
-Ampharos
-Golbat (Crobat in Kanto)
-Alakazam
-Porygon2
-Starter
Explanation: More Johto Mons than before. Originally was going to give him Lanturn for Surf... but Sneasel learns the move.
Will's team:
-Jynx
-Stantler
-Slowking
-Girafarig
-Exeggutor
-Xatu
Explanation: Elite Four need to have 6 Mons. Champion just has to have more power. Stantler is a future psychic Mon that fits here.
Koga's team:
-Qwilfish (with Spikes)
-Hypno
-Venomoth
-Muk
-Scizor
-Crobat
Explanation: Hypno is a creepy Mon that uses dirty tactics, Scizor is an armored ninja, like Koga.
Bruno's team:
-Hitmontop
-Steelix
-Hitmonchan
-Ursaring
-Hitmonlee
-Machamp
Explanation: Evolved Onix and added an angry muscular bear.
Karen's team:
-Umbreon
-Vileplume
-Octillery
-Murkrow
-Gengar
-Houndoom
Explanation: She says you should try to win with your favorites and its the type of person who would like Octillery.
Lance's team:
-Gyarados
-Nidoking
-Lapras
-Aerodactyl
-Tyranitar
-Dragonite
Explanation: No longer a Dragon or Flying type expert, just a powerful and diverse trainer. Also has an actual Johto Mon now.
I don’t want to disappoint you, but this would count as wishlisting due to explicit “dream team” type of thing and brief explanations for additions or removals.
To stay on-topic of the forum’s name though? Having Bruno as part of the Johto-game Elite Four is a poor choice given Chuck is already a Fighting-type specialist and both have overlapping Pokémon, so he might either go for a different type (Ground, to refer his Onix members as those are part Ground-type) or be removed, as Agatha and Lorelei are also removed to avoid overlap with Morty and Pryce respectively.
you want the first gym leader to have an ace with 100 HP and 96 Special Defense?
He was also an abysmal leader that railroaded Kanto's early-game about as hard as the Unova triplets.
If the anime hadn't saved his rep, people would hate his guts.
Get a Geodude or die lmao. And that's with Falkner having Mud-Slap as a TM, which only makes things even worse.
For reference, here's Cyndaquil and Pidgeotto.
I get that Noctowl fits Falkner visually, but people really gotta do the math and test it out before saying things like this.
Well the anime also made him a comic relief pervert, so it's a wash at best.If the anime hadn't saved his rep, people would hate his guts.
The rabbit hole is a bit deeper than that.
Rock Throw also has imperfect accuracy, as do most Rock moves. Geodude is generally slower than Noctowl too. There's a very real risk that you might not even get an attack off.
And Onix gets it at 14. You're probably working with the NPC Trade one so boosted EXP, but your only good grinding spot is the Spout Tower. Which is bad for Onix and Geodude both for obvious reasons.
The other potential option is Mareep with Thundershock at level 9, but I cannot remember if you're allowed into Route 32 before beating Falkner.
In GSC and HGSS, the Miracle Seed guy blocks you off until you get the Zephyr Badge and the Togepi Egg, but in HGSS they added a grass patch north of that guy so you can catch the Route 32 mons pre-Falkner. No such luck in GSC, though!
I agree with all the points about GSC Falkner being quite an awkward opponent to deal with. Low-level boss battles will always present problems, because even with today's abundant level-up movepools, there's a lot of early variance in when mons get their first decent attack (let's call it the Starly-Shinx dichotomy). It seems like you're intended to overlevel, which never feels good to me.
You're not, and Mareep isn't in Crystal.
One of the very few legit fixes in HGSS was adding a patch of grass to the part of R32 that you can access before Falkner so that people could get Mareep before the 1st Gym.
Between outright bad options, Pidgeotto's stat advantage compared to most mons at that point, and Mud-Slap cheese, Falkner can be deceptively annoying to deal with.
I won't say it's objectively poorly designed like Brock, but under level cap rules, hoooooo boy. He's annoying. Cyndaquil doesn't even have Ember at this point. (It's Lv. 12)
I was thinking about it and while I agree that it's good to have pre-Falkner access to the Route 32 mons, it brought with it an unfortunate side effect: the devs felt the need to lower the levels of the Route 32 wilds slightly to compensate for their earlier availability, despite Falkner getting a level buff anyway. This affects all of Route 32, not just the patch you get immediate access to, so even this cool thing that HGSS did ended up making Johto's level curve ever so slightly worse.
What people are missing is that it's not that Falkner should have had Noctowl, he should have had Hoothoot as his lead. Just give us something as Gen 2 rep even if it's not the ace. Pidgeotto is basically not able to be swapped for anything, there's no birds with close to equivalent stats, though an overleveled 1st stage would make for a good scary-but-not-dangerous boss.
For reference, some bird BSTs:
Natu: 320
Delibird: 330
Pidgey: 251
Hoothoot: 262
Pidgeotto: 349
Togetic: 405
Murkrow: 405
Noctowl: 442
(also give Bugsy a Pineco and a Shuckle. There's no good replacements for Scyther, I know, but if you want him with bulky mons, at least use the Gen II bulky mons that can actually do something.)
For reference, some bird BSTs:
Natu: 320
Delibird: 330
Pidgey: 251
Hoothoot: 262
Pidgeotto: 349
Togetic: 405
Murkrow: 405
Noctowl: 442
(also give Bugsy a Pineco and a Shuckle. There's no good replacements for Scyther, I know, but if you want him with bulky mons, at least use the Gen II bulky mons that can actually do something.)
I double-checked this this morning and I'm surprised no one corrected me on this, I should have said, "Maybe Sage/Elder Li was the real Flying type Gym Leader of Johto all along."
I actually had the final trainer in Sprout Tower in mind when I made the post and thought that his name was Li, but checking Bulbapedia's HGSS trainer list for the Sage class, the only trainer there with a Hoothoot (which was the point of the post) was Troy. It turns out there are two Sprout Tower Sages that use Hoothoot, something I didn't remember, and that Li's trainer class got changed to Elder in HGSS, something the Bulbapedia article mentioned earlier on the Sage page, which is why I didn't see Li in the HGSS list.
I guess no one else thought to look too far into it because the point of my post (that another story-mandatory [in HGSS, anyway] trainer in the same city as Falkner uses Johto's regional bird) clearly got across anyway.
Also haha Elder Li/Elderly
I thought you were deliberately choosing Sage Troy because he has a higher proportion of Flying mons on his team than Elder Li hahaI double-checked this this morning and I'm surprised no one corrected me on this, I should have said, "Maybe Sage/Elder Li was the real Flying type Gym Leader of Johto all along."
I actually had the final trainer in Sprout Tower in mind when I made the post and thought that his name was Li, but checking Bulbapedia's HGSS trainer list for the Sage class, the only trainer there with a Hoothoot (which was the point of the post) was Troy. It turns out there are two Sprout Tower Sages that use Hoothoot, something I didn't remember, and that Li's trainer class got changed to Elder in HGSS, something the Bulbapedia article mentioned earlier on the Sage page, which is why I didn't see Li in the HGSS list.
I guess no one else thought to look too far into it because the point of my post (that another story-mandatory [in HGSS, anyway] trainer in the same city as Falkner uses Johto's regional bird) clearly got across anyway.
Also haha Elder Li/Elderly
I could never beat Falkner with Geodude alone, Mud Slap is desgined to mess with you. Cyndaquil can also struggle here. Chikorita, the fan designated "black sheep" of Johto, unironically has better chances than Cyndaquil since early Reflect makes her quite tanky.
Roost in HGSS might seem a bit too much for first players to handle, but then again, this game lets you catch Mareep earlier haha
Mud Slap is just such a weird move to give Falkner TBH. The type coverage it gives is too much for a 1st gym, the secondary effect is broken, and it's not particularly associated with birds. I get that the flying-type options for a TM are limited(there aren't any good ones at that point), but almost anything would have been better.
It's fun to look at the Gen 2 TM list and realise that the closest thing to a Flying TM is the ???-type Curse, which would be comically busted on such a low-levelled team where the player has such limited attacking options
Not just that, the list of flying-type moves is almost 100% offensive with no secondary effect, which makes them rather poor as potential TMs(either too good or not good enough), so you can't just swap out Mud Slap. And the only other early game TMs are Swift, which would push the player even harder at Onix/Geodude, or Roar, LOL.
I get why Gamefreak went with Mud Slap(seriously, "Make Mirror Move a TM" is possibly the best option, which is scary), but Mud Slap is just so bad. It actively discourages Geodude/Onix/Mareep, which should be the solution for this Gym. And it increases RNG, which is not fun.