Unpopular opinions

Mad Ram said:
It also doesn't help his ace is level 9. For the record, Geodude learns Rock Throw at level 11. You have to deliberately overlevel in order to have a good tool against Noctowl, and that's ignoring Mud-Slap screwing with the accuracy.
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And Onix gets it at 14. You're probably working with the NPC Trade one so boosted EXP, but your only good grinding spot is the Spout Tower. Which is bad for Onix and Geodude both for obvious reasons.

The other potential option is Mareep with Thundershock at level 9, but I cannot remember if you're allowed into Route 32 before beating Falkner.
 
Karxrida said:
And Onix gets it at 14. You're probably working with the NPC Trade one so boosted EXP, but your only good grinding spot is the Spout Tower. Which is bad for Onix and Geodude both for obvious reasons.

The other potential option is Mareep with Thundershock at level 9, but I cannot remember if you're allowed into Route 32 before beating Falkner.
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In GSC and HGSS, the Miracle Seed guy blocks you off until you get the Zephyr Badge and the Togepi Egg, but in HGSS they added a grass patch north of that guy so you can catch the Route 32 mons pre-Falkner. No such luck in GSC, though!

I agree with all the points about GSC Falkner being quite an awkward opponent to deal with. Low-level boss battles will always present problems, because even with today's abundant level-up movepools, there's a lot of early variance in when mons get their first decent attack (let's call it the Starly-Shinx dichotomy). It seems like you're intended to overlevel, which never feels good to me.
 
Karxrida said:
And Onix gets it at 14. You're probably working with the NPC Trade one so boosted EXP, but your only good grinding spot is the Spout Tower. Which is bad for Onix and Geodude both for obvious reasons.

The other potential option is Mareep with Thundershock at level 9, but I cannot remember if you're allowed into Route 32 before beating Falkner.
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You're not, and Mareep isn't in Crystal.

One of the very few legit fixes in HGSS was adding a patch of grass to the part of R32 that you can access before Falkner so that people could get Mareep before the 1st Gym.

Between outright bad options, Pidgeotto's stat advantage compared to most mons at that point, and Mud-Slap cheese, Falkner can be deceptively annoying to deal with.

I won't say it's objectively poorly designed like Brock, but under level cap rules, hoooooo boy. He's annoying. Cyndaquil doesn't even have Ember at this point. (It's Lv. 12)
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
One of the very few legit fixes in HGSS was adding a patch of grass to the part of R32 that you can access before Falkner so that people could get Mareep before the 1st Gym.
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I was thinking about it and while I agree that it's good to have pre-Falkner access to the Route 32 mons, it brought with it an unfortunate side effect: the devs felt the need to lower the levels of the Route 32 wilds slightly to compensate for their earlier availability, despite Falkner getting a level buff anyway. This affects all of Route 32, not just the patch you get immediate access to, so even this cool thing that HGSS did ended up making Johto's level curve ever so slightly worse.
 
What people are missing is that it's not that Falkner should have had Noctowl, he should have had Hoothoot as his lead. Just give us something as Gen 2 rep even if it's not the ace. Pidgeotto is basically not able to be swapped for anything, there's no birds with close to equivalent stats, though an overleveled 1st stage would make for a good scary-but-not-dangerous boss.

For reference, some bird BSTs:
Natu: 320
Delibird: 330
Pidgey: 251
Hoothoot: 262
Pidgeotto: 349
Togetic: 405
Murkrow: 405
Noctowl: 442

(also give Bugsy a Pineco and a Shuckle. There's no good replacements for Scyther, I know, but if you want him with bulky mons, at least use the Gen II bulky mons that can actually do something.)
 
CPU said:
Maybe Sage Troy was the real Flying type Gym Leader of Johto all along
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I double-checked this this morning and I'm surprised no one corrected me on this, I should have said, "Maybe Sage/Elder Li was the real Flying type Gym Leader of Johto all along."

I actually had the final trainer in Sprout Tower in mind when I made the post and thought that his name was Li, but checking Bulbapedia's HGSS trainer list for the Sage class, the only trainer there with a Hoothoot (which was the point of the post) was Troy. It turns out there are two Sprout Tower Sages that use Hoothoot, something I didn't remember, and that Li's trainer class got changed to Elder in HGSS, something the Bulbapedia article mentioned earlier on the Sage page, which is why I didn't see Li in the HGSS list.

I guess no one else thought to look too far into it because the point of my post (that another story-mandatory [in HGSS, anyway] trainer in the same city as Falkner uses Johto's regional bird) clearly got across anyway.

Also haha Elder Li/Elderly :totodiLUL:
 
CPU said:
I double-checked this this morning and I'm surprised no one corrected me on this, I should have said, "Maybe Sage/Elder Li was the real Flying type Gym Leader of Johto all along."

I actually had the final trainer in Sprout Tower in mind when I made the post and thought that his name was Li, but checking Bulbapedia's HGSS trainer list for the Sage class, the only trainer there with a Hoothoot (which was the point of the post) was Troy. It turns out there are two Sprout Tower Sages that use Hoothoot, something I didn't remember, and that Li's trainer class got changed to Elder in HGSS, something the Bulbapedia article mentioned earlier on the Sage page, which is why I didn't see Li in the HGSS list.

I guess no one else thought to look too far into it because the point of my post (that another story-mandatory [in HGSS, anyway] trainer in the same city as Falkner uses Johto's regional bird) clearly got across anyway.

Also haha Elder Li/Elderly :totodiLUL:
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I thought you were deliberately choosing Sage Troy because he has a higher proportion of Flying mons on his team than Elder Li haha
 
Mad Ram said:
It also doesn't help his ace is level 9. For the record, Geodude learns Rock Throw at level 11. You have to deliberately overlevel in order to have a good tool against Noctowl, and that's ignoring Mud-Slap screwing with the accuracy.
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I could never beat Falkner with Geodude alone, Mud Slap is desgined to mess with you. Cyndaquil can also struggle here. Chikorita, the fan designated "black sheep" of Johto, unironically has better chances than Cyndaquil since early Reflect makes her quite tanky.

Roost in HGSS might seem a bit too much for first players to handle, but then again, this game lets you catch Mareep earlier haha
 
Mud Slap is just such a weird move to give Falkner TBH. The type coverage it gives is too much for a 1st gym, the secondary effect is broken, and it's not particularly associated with birds. I get that the flying-type options for a TM are limited(there aren't any good ones at that point), but almost anything would have been better.
 
Cobalt Empoleon said:
It's fun to look at the Gen 2 TM list and realise that the closest thing to a Flying TM is the ???-type Curse, which would be comically busted on such a low-levelled team where the player has such limited attacking options
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Not just that, the list of flying-type moves is almost 100% offensive with no secondary effect, which makes them rather poor as potential TMs(either too good or not good enough), so you can't just swap out Mud Slap. And the only other early game TMs are Swift, which would push the player even harder at Onix/Geodude, or Roar, LOL.

I get why Gamefreak went with Mud Slap(seriously, "Make Mirror Move a TM" is possibly the best option, which is scary), but Mud Slap is just so bad. It actively discourages Geodude/Onix/Mareep, which should be the solution for this Gym. And it increases RNG, which is not fun.
 
tbh Mud Slap being super effective doesn't even matter that much because it's so weak. Neutral STAB Tackle is way more threatening. The problem is that dumb kids wouldn't really know that. (I was a dumb kid but also powered through Falkner with an overleveled Cyndaquil, so eh?)
 
Karxrida said:
tbh Mud Slap being super effective doesn't even matter that much because it's so weak. Neutral STAB Tackle is way more threatening. The problem is that dumb kids wouldn't really know that. (I was a dumb kid but also powered through Falkner with an overleveled Cyndaquil, so eh?)
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GSC Falkner's Pidgey spams Mud Slap when it's super effective but completely avoids it otherwise, so its type matchups matter in that sense. On average, Cyndaquil and Mareep would have a better time if Pidgey used Tackle instead.

Changing topic, I've seen quite a few people recently say that they don't really like any Battle Frontier facility except the Battle Factory. In particular, I've seen a lot of disdain for the Pike, Pyramid and Arcade, but I really like all of those! Superficially, there's an RNG factor at play that could potentially make them really frustrating, but in practice:
  • the Pike compensates by being very chill in terms of actual battles and having a natural predator in Natural Cure Starmie
  • the Pyramid gives you ample opportunity to prep for each ascent (and is also much more straightforward than it seems imo)
  • the Arcade's events are within your control and the lack of held items (barring specific roulette spins) actually removes stuff like Brightpowder bs
 
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My guess is the idea was that Mud-Slap was basically a damage dealing version of Sand-Attack which from the start was pretty strongly associated with Pidgey. Pidgey is the very first Pokemon you'll see using Sand-Attack in RBY and flavor wise it basically involves Pidgey flapping its wings and blowing sand in the opponent's face.

Mud-Slap is likely a similar flavor as to why a Gym Leader with birds has it. The birds flap their wings and blow mud in the opponent's face instead of sand, and it being mud makes it deal damage (whereas Sand-Attack doesn't deal any actual damage whatsoever).
 
Cobalt Empoleon said:
Changing topic, I've seen quite a few people recently say that they don't really like any Battle Frontier facility except the Battle Factory. In particular, I've seen a lot of disdain for the Pike, Pyramid and Arcade, but I really like all of those! Superficially, there's an RNG factor at play that could potentially make them really frustrating, but in practice:
  • the Pike compensates by being very chill in terms of actual battles and having a natural predator in Natural Cure Starmie
  • the Pyramid gives you ample opportunity to prep for each ascent (and is also much more straightforward than it seems imo)
  • the Arcade's events are within your control and the lack of held items (barring specific roulette spins) actually removes stuff like Brightpowder bs
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The Pike's kind of my favourite of the seven Emerald facilities (maybe partly because it's the easiest?) because it's not really about luck at all. The name of the game is more about managing risk than anything else, because you can to some extent force outcomes: you can't get a double battle if you only have one active party member, you can't get statused if your whole party is afflicted, and you can completely avoid a scenario you don't want if you've been told it's behind a given door. Like a good 50% of the time you should know what you'll be facing when you enter a room (or what you could be facing, which is more key).

In the Adventures manga, Lucy says the key is "making your own luck" but that's definitely more true of the Pyramid than the Pike because, as you allude to, you can drastically alter the Pyramid by preparing for each round. A lot of guides say to avoid the wild Pokemon where you can and focus on the trainers and, like, that's certainly viable (just lead with Alakazam and Teleport away from 99% of fights) but I've found a lot of success in having a team tailored to each round's wild spawns and knocking stuff out for a rapidly increased circle of visibility.

The Arcade is in your control, I like it a lot less but maybe that's just my own personal taste. I've not played it a whole lot outside of "get the symbol" runs but I find it much more dependent on the whims of RNG: early on when I first played it I remember getting stung a lot by, for instance, choosing "get an item" and receiving something like the Lagging Tail or the Iron Ball. But maybe with the benefit of study I'd have a better idea of what's optimal and what shouldn't be chosen on the roulette. I think what makes it properly difficult is at higher levels any disadvantage is usually enough to end a streak - but I suppose the true challenge, then, is having a team that's so good that it can cope with a status or a rogue field effect. Maybe Natural Cure and Guts Pokemon are the key here... I should go study the top teams on the Gen IV Frontier thread.

...oh god, am I going to get sucked into Battle Arcade now?

For me, the truly bullshit facility is the Battle Palace, because that one really is a game of luck. True, you can alter the odds by bringing a Pokemon with the correct nature and moveset, but even then they're not guaranteed to attack. Outside of giving your lead a Choice Band and hoping the move you get hits all three opponents, it really is a matter of RNG and so there's not really an incentive for me to invest time in that because there's literally nothing you can do to improve your odds. Eventually, your Hasty Pokemon which has an 88% chance to use an offensive move will get that 12% inaction more than a couple of times and you'll lose through no fault of your own.
 
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Cobalt Empoleon said:
GSC Falkner spams Mud Slap when it's super effective but completely avoids it otherwise, so its type matchups matter in that sense. On average, Cyndaquil and Mareep would have a better time if Pidgey used Tackle instead.
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No?

Stab Tackle: 35 × 1.5 = 52.5
Super Effective Mud Slap: 20 × 2 = 40

And this is gen 2, so they're both coming off the same stat. They would have their accuracy lowered but they're taking more than 25% more damage per hit.
 
AztecCroc said:
No?

Stab Tackle: 35 × 1.5 = 52.5
Super Effective Mud Slap: 20 × 2 = 40

And this is gen 2, so they're both coming off the same stat. They would have their accuracy lowered but they're taking more than 25% more damage per hit.
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Two things:

1) Adeleine is right that I meant both Cynda and Mareep would rather have Falkner prioritise the move that's stronger on paper if the alternative is getting a couple of accuracy drops
2) If you actually pull up the damage calculator for GSC and put in Falkner's Pidgey (DVs of 11, 9, 10, 7, 7 btw!), you'll see that, owing to a quirk of the damage formula at lower levels, Tackle and Mud-Slap actually deal exactly equal damage to a mon of a similar level that's neutral to the former and weak to the latter

another classic AztecCroc reply, I guess!
 
Sorry for continuing this topic

While GSC Falkner's Pidgeotto always clicks Gust, his Pidgey always spams Mud-Slap against Cyndaquil and Growlithe 100% of the time, doesn't matter if Tackle is stronger. Try using Cyndaquil against Falkner's Pidgey in GSC yourself and keep resetting until it uses Tackle (it always click Mud-Slap). Mud-slap dealing less damage doesn't matter there, the problem is moreso turning that fight into RNG fest, and its a lot worse for a Cyndaquil. Without Ember, it has to land like 2 or 3 Tackles to beat Pidgey, whereas Growlithe and Rock Throw Geodude only need one hit to beat Pidgey. If you asked me, a Cyndaquil without Ember is far worse than Chikorita against Falkner.

I have 0 problem reaching L10-L11 by Falkner and if you can reach that level at that point in HGSS, then you shouldn't have issue doing so in GSC. The problem here is moreso that some people just cared so much about not getting overleveled there. Unless you're doing a hardcore nuzlocke, you should be overleveling there anyway, and that's not a bad thing and its not like you get punished so heavily for doing so (Look, Its not a bad thing to have a L11 Geodude by Falkner). You wouldn't feel that in HGSS because Falkner is much higher leveled there.

GSC Falkner is so low-leveled, and yes its a really bad thing and just highlights Jotho's bad leveling curve. The fact that the last trainer at the sprout tower has a L10 Hoothoot compared to Falkner's L9 Pidgeotto should tell you so. Even the very first trainer at the gym has a L9 Spearow that is pretty much a mini-boss, and THAT thing has 60 Base Attack and 70 Base Speed. For reference, Pidgeotto has 60 Base Attack and 71 Base Speed.
 
Hugin said:
Mud Slap is just such a weird move to give Falkner TBH. The type coverage it gives is too much for a 1st gym, the secondary effect is broken, and it's not particularly associated with birds. I get that the flying-type options for a TM are limited(there aren't any good ones at that point), but almost anything would have been better.
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It's really not.

Here's the list of Flying TMs in GSC: :wo:

These are all the Flying moves in GSC: Mirror Move, Peck, Gust, Wing Attack, Drill Peck, Fly, and Sky Attack. Gen 2 added Aeroblast. That's it.

Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?

Mirror Move is the only reasonable option, but it's incredibly underwhelming, and it's not like "Parrot Mimicry" would fit a lot of mons either way. Mimic was already a pretty mid option in Gen 1, and that was the best version of it by a mile. This would be an even worse copy of that.

To be fair, Mud-Slap is an awful move, but it does work to give birds a fighting chance against all the Rock-types in Union Cave.

If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?
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Honestly considering in later gens Aerial Ace is a TM... Gust could have been a TM as well and fill that hole.
Low BP, accurate without secondary effect, sounds about something that could have been a TM and been on some random non-flying mons with wings or similar.
 
I've never cared that some Johto gym leaders don't use gen 2 mons. Johto and Kanto are the only two regions that are connected, so it's never bothered me.
Worldie said:
Honestly considering in later gens Aerial Ace is a TM... Gust could have been a TM as well and fill that hole.
Low BP, accurate without secondary effect, sounds about something that could have been a TM and been on some random non-flying mons with wings or similar.
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Water gun was a TM in gen 1, so Gust could have worked too. I've always wondered why Wing Attack wasn't a TM in these earlier gens.
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.
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Do you feel swapping with Whitney would make it better?
 
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