I like Rhyperior because he's fat. All fat Pokémon will be brought into Heaven when God rains hellfire on the world.
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- Thread starter Yung Dramps
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I disagree - I can think of MANY "bad pokemon". [they're bad in my opinion, but still]
One of them is Banette. Nothing short of a new evolution or total ground-up rework is going to save it. Its mega is actually WORSE than the base, which is unusual since this isn't a blatant Garchomp/Slowbro situation, but hear me out here.
The problems actually have very little to do with design imo - Banette's design isn't the most flashy, but for something from Gen 3, it's aged generally well. Mega Banette has an ever better design, taking the zipper aspect of base Banette further, and generally doing a good job at just that. The flavor surrounding Banette is also nice as well, and Mega Banette does a good job building on it. Overall, solid start, is it not?
The problem lies in... basically everything else about Banette.
Banette's stats fucking REEK of Gen 3 syndrome, where the pokemon that come out are slow, "bulky" mixed attackers, in a generation with the 510 ev limit. That's a bad start, because Banette is unbelievably frail. 64/65/63 defenses mean that you'll be hard-pressed to switch in on anything, and 65 speed means that even if you do somehow switch in, you'll be hard-pressed to do anything before you invariably die because of your defenses. Sure, 115 attack is great... only in Gen 3, where it can use physical Shadow Ball [a generally good move], because the physical-special split locked it in with the god-awful Shadow Claw [a move that you want to avoid if you can help it]. 83 special attack is confusing - what the actual mother of fuck is Banette, a primarily physical attacker, going to use it for? Even in Gen 3, it pretty much never used it at all, and come Gen 4, it has no use for that 83 special attack - 83 points which legitimately could have and frankly, SHOULD HAVE, gone elsewhere [speed, et tu?].
So, already, Banette is pretty much emblematic of all of the low points of Gen 3 pokemon design [usage-wise] - does it at least have a good movepool to back it up?
Movepool? Good? What is this, some kind of badly-written joke?
Ok, I should clarify, its movepool actually isn't bad bad - it gets cool utility in Will-o-Wisp and Thunder Wave, Taunt, Knock Off, all of that pizazz. However, beyond that, it basically gets nothing else of note, at least nothing else that other Ghosts don't have and can use indefinitely better than this worthless shitsack of a mon. It's just so thoroughly bland all around, made even worse when it doesn't even have a good STAB to use post-Physical/Special split. It's usable, but at that point I'd much rather use, say, Dusclops, Gengar, or frankly other Ghost-types, who have a little thing known as an ACTUAL STAT SPREAD and can use it to much better effect. Sure, it gets Poltergeist in Gen 9, but by then it's way too little, FAR too late to be worth it with a stat spread as putrid as it is.
It surely doesn't help that its abilities are genuinely the most bland, dry, and frankly middling thing around. Insomnia and Frisk are fine abilities but fail to save such a horrible stat spread, and Cursed Body falls into the same trap, being decent to okay-ish, but not being enough to carry Banette.
As for Mega Banette, I legitimately think it is the single most overrated Mega Evolution. Look, I can understand why people defend it, but I think those people are genuinely, beyond ANY shadow of a doubt, wrong.
Firstly, let's analyze its stats.
One thing that would stand out is that gigantic base 165 attack. To its credit, 165 attack is very good and lets Banette pose a good threat to the opponent. However, this is immediately undercut by two things:
1) the fact that it has no good physical Ghost STAB or high BP moves [in the two generations it was around, anyways - Poltergeist is fine but it does not fix the underlying issues with this mega evolution]
2) that speed tier. it's still genuinely shit. [i'll rip this apart later, don't you worry]
The rest of its stats are just... so, so, SO mediocre. It's basically just a Ghost-type version of Rampardos at this point. 64/75/83 defenses completely fail to hold up in the face of power creep, and 75 speed means that those low defenses are going to show themselves a lot more often than you'd like. Doesn't help that you can't even use in Trick Room very well [not like anyone sane is using Banette in Trick Room, much less Trick Room at all, at least in Singles] since 75 is too fast for it. And once again, 93 special attack is fine, but Banette still has no good way of using it.
So Mega Banette's stats are still putrid dogshit, basically like a Ghost-type Rampardos except it takes up an item slot and your team's Mega Slot. And stats are only one part of the picture.
What of its ability, might you be asking?
Well, it gets Prankster.
This... is actually a good ability! It circumvents Banette's godawful speed tier and with moves such as Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, and Thunder Wave, it can use it to good effect. It can even use the famed Prankster + Destiny Bond combo to score a knockout against an opponent who least expects it!
That's great, right?
...Right?
Wrong! This actually opens up another problem with Mega Banette, and one which I think seals it as the worst, and frankly, most overrated Mega Evolution of all time:
It fundamentally does not help you win. At all. It only makes you lose slower.
When you're using Mega Banette - for anything - you are, first off, sacrificing a teamslot that could have gone to another, much better pokemon, and you are sacrificing the opportunity to use a much better Mega Evolution [i.e. basically everything else, except for Audino, Abomasnow, and Glalie]. This wouldn't be so bad if Mega Banette offered immediate value to your team, and to an extent, it can. Prankster Wisp/Thunder Wave are annoying and can prove an easy way to cripple the opponent. However, beyond that, Banette is offering LITERALLY NOTHING of immediate value to your team [minus spinblocking, which at that point you might as well just use another Ghost-type that ideally doesn't burn through your mega slot]. It can't hit hard, since that meaty 165 attack is being undercut by its bad offensive movepool, it can't hit first, since 75 speed is far too slow, it can't tank hits since it dies to... basically any semi-competent offensive pokemon, and its team support is fine but not only can they be replicated with other, much better, pokemon, but they are also just SO not worth the mega slot. Prankster Destiny Bond, which Mega Banette is best known for, is ultimately just a shitty gimmick that any half-competent player can and often will play around with ease since its offensive pressure is kneecapped by its bad offensive movepool. All of this isn't helped by Dark-types being made immune to Prankster, and considering how common they are, Mega Banette's utility is not only less valuable but also significantly less applicable, which is also not helped by the fact that it's totally unable to do jackshit to them back.
And even if you can overlook or rationalize out all of these flaws, the question of "How does this specifically help me win?" is a question Mega Banette fundamentally cannot answer because its tools are either a) unnecessary, b) outright bad, c) far too specialized, or d) can be covered by using better pokemon in place of a bad Mega Evolution of a bad pokemon. The only teams you're ever going to be winning against with Mega Banette are teams that are already bad and have more issues than it. Mega Banette fixes none of its base form's flaws, and if anything, introduces significantly worse flaws to compound the ones that already exist.
tl;dr: Mega Banette is garbage, and so is base Banette. If you want a Ghost-type, use basically anything else at this point.
i aint reading allatI disagree with these takes because these ideas are different and can coexist. You can say some Pokemon are bad, and still agree they have fans and have things that make them likable. You can disagree with the first and agree with the second. (Coincidentally, this is what I believe.) All you need to believe for this is that:
1) Pokemon can have negative traits in addition to positive traits,
2) The negative can outweigh the positive, and
3) Popularity is different from quality (people can like things that are bad).
I agree with all of these claims.
I'll use Rhyperior as an example. I think Rhyperior is bad, but I understand why people like it.
I think people like Rhyperior, even though I think it is bad, because it has relatively surface level positive traits. It's big and strong and manly, and it has some spikes and stuff, spikes and stuff are cool. If you look at Rhyperior and don't think hard about its existence, it gives a positive impression.
However, to me, Rhyperior has several negative traits, which become more apparent the more you think about it. I will explain this, and by extension why any given Pokemon can be bad. The core of my argument is this. When you think about them more, Rhydon's design/concept sends a clear, focused message with its design, while Rhyperior is unfocused and undermines itself.
I use and focus on the original Pokemon's sprites here because I want to evaluate them as they were made, without being limited by any concessions to future graphical requirements or new stylistic directions.
Looking at Rhydon makes something perfectly clear. This is a pocket monster that will run you down and trample you without a second thought. The design elements work together to communicate this. Its vertical stance towers over the ground. It's built solid, like a rock, like a mountain. Look at that tree trunk torso and legs! Its thick tail also evokes a Godzilla-like behemoth. You're more likely to win the Goldenrod lottery than topple this behemoth. Its narrowed, angry, focused, forward-facing eyes make obvious that it considers you some kind of enemy, even if you don't rise up to the level of "threat", as does its scowl. For all I know, you just looked at it wrong. But may God have mercy on your soul.
Maybe you like cute, friendly Pokemon, so this raging beast isn't really your cup of tea. And that's totally cool. I'm right with you there – some of my favorites are Alcremie, Minun, and Ledian. But even if Rhydon doesn't specifically appeal to my tastes, I can appreciate the craft in making it. And, even though it's not my personal favorite, I think it's pretty freaking cool.
When I look at Rhyperior and take the time to think about it, there are clearly some ideas cooking.
Its shoulder spikes seem like blades, its tail like a club, its hand cannons like... cannons. There's some kind of weapon emphasis. This Pokemon is less about trampling you with brute strength like Rhydon, taking a more passive, reactive stance preparing to receive blows. This aligns with the Protector integrated into its design, giving it what seems to be a helmet and some scattered protection elsewhere, suggesting it's preparing to get hit and counter attack. It's almost like Rhyperior is even more dangerous than Rhydon because it's using these advanced techniques versus just raw might.
I think these ideas, on paper, look great. It builds on Rhydon with a new and natural progression, finding a creative new way to add danger and menace. Rhyperior won't just take you down, he's ready for whatever you've got and knows how to disassemble you.
Here are the problems when going from ideas to execution, where I think this messaging gets muddied.
1) The weapons are inherently awkward.
don't know how he's ever hitting me with that stubby tail. Those shoulder blades look totally unwieldy. His hands being cannons means it's awkward for him to grab or punch me. In contrast, I definitely believe Rhydon can run in a line, and whatever was standing there will be gone.
2) The weapons are used awkwardly.
Whenever you look at Pokedex or flavor for Rhydon, there are two weapons it emphasizes. Mostly its hand cannons, and, to its lesser extent... its natural horn that it already had. Its horn can be used as a drill, but that's just as true for Rhydon, if anything more so. What is the point of this broad weapon theming if it's going to focus on one new weapon and the horn it already had? I'll also note that the hand cannons feel a bit "tacked onto" the design – they aren't visually prominent, and I can't even see them in the sprite I added – which makes this awkward use even worse to me.
3) The Protector / "armor" is inherently awkward.
First, Rhydon's hide already looked impregnable. Why are we adding more stuff onto it to make it even more impregnable? I could understand if the grafted material was something important and sensible in its own right – maybe Rhydon found new metals in its environment and got additional elemental resistance from that, for example. However, the Protector is very arbitrarily "thrown out there" as this evolution tool of unknown substance for a Pokemon that was already very protected.
Next, I put "armor" in quotes because the Protector is far from full body armor. The helmet area is pretty complete, but the torso is just one belt, and elsewhere are just scattered patches to the... knees and groin. Okay. Why is this important protective armor so incomplete? Rhyperior simultaneously looks bulky and slow – the Protector is said to be very stiff and heavy – while not looking very protected.
4) The Protector / "armor" is used awkwardly.
The part of Rhyperior that gets the most flavor emphasis is its ability to shoot projectiles, from its hand cannons. If it knocks some enemy out with a shot rock, it doesn't need to take hits from them, which makes armor less important. Rhyperior's design is all about slow, ponderous bulk, but projectile + heavy armor is generally a bad idea with poor synergy. You'll note medieval knights, not archers, went into battle with a full suit of plate armor. There are definitely exceptions, e.g. poking out from behind walls or armor to shoot your projectile (think a pavise, a slit in a castle wall, or cover in a shooter), or bulk being necessary to process very large projectiles (think a catapult or trebuchet). Rhyperior isn't these exceptions, though. Notably, its projectiles are small – rocks, not boulders – and a bulky tail or arm spikes wouldn't help it shoot large rocks anyway.
5) Rhyperior's intelligence is used awkwardly.
There is a lot of messaging from Rhyperior suggesting it is smart. Its use of weapons and (non-natural) armor, and its reactive fighting technique, certainly seem more sophisticated than Rhydon's blunt force trauma and natural rocky hide. On Rhyperior, the Protector looks like human clothing – a helmet, knee pads, and a cup / crotch guard. This makes Rhyperior look more human like, and suggests it might work around humans wearing similar equipment – doing construction work, perhaps? Helping clear open tunnels for miners? Even its items name, the Protector, suggests a more mature, helpful, defensive role than Rhydon's rampages. Also, Rhydon uses walking upright to show more intelligence than the foolish Rhyhorn, and Rhyperior keeps that trend up. Evolutions are normally smarter than their pre-evolutions, anyway.
Is Rhyperior serving some kind of more humanlike, sapient role in its environment, or working with humans, for this to make sense?
No.
Literally the opposite. It's actively dumber than Rhydon and all it does is fight. Why is there all this intelligence setup just to do the opposite?
6) Where do we go from here? Like with Rhydon, Rhyperior's vibe is something I was never that into. I'm not really into macho, bulky guys like it. However, unlike with Rhydon, where I appreciate the craft and enjoy the guy as being super cool, Rhyperior just makes me confused and annoyed. It has lots of cool ideas with potential in another context, but as is, it's clumsy and self-defeating to me, so I can't really appreciate it. In fact, I anti-appreciate it, because it takes the spotlight away from Rhydon, who I believe is better.
...okay? I didn't make it for you.
I made it for Sparky, the person who made the takes I responded to, to fairly and thoroughly consider their argument, and for anyone else who happens to appreciate in-depth analysis. I also underlined the key takeaways so you can skim it if you want, and then look at the deeper analysis if you were surprised at any argument and wanted to learn more.
Now you're twice posting about how much stuff you're not reading. This isn't a good look for you. If you don't want to read a post, fine, no skin off my back. But taking up air to post about it, as if we should care, just makes you look lazy and entitled.
not reading allat
"what we really need is an unnecessary rethread of the 15 year old ds game, ive literally been feenin for this ever since Turboslop Supreme came out"
Someone please explain to me why the amount of people with this take is so distressingly high. I thought Unovaheads liked the sprites???
idk maybe cause the game was good or something who knows
The game is good, yes, which is why it doesn't seem like a particularly productive use of development resources that could be put towards exciting new experiences on doing the same thing again. It's not even a game that could really benefit from a graphical spit-and-shine like, say, Dead Space: Like I said, I thought BW's visual appeal was fundamentally tied to being a sprite-based DS game. I'm all for a brand new game set in Unova - I'm sure there's plenty of ways you could expand on the region further and re-interpret its Pokemon and worldbuilding in a new design space. I've thought of quite a few fun ideas myself! Thing is, all of these ideas hinge on not having to be tethered to the shell of a game that released in the Obama administration.
Let me put it this way: Is there a reason a BW1 remake is "needed" that wouldn't be satisfied by a straight port of the original duology to NSO accompanied by a Legends game or BW3 or whatever?
It's so fucked up that the Obama administration is now being used as a benchmark for things being old.
i just said remaster cause that seems way more likely than an actual b&w 3 or legends, i mean i'd def prefer that but a remaster is prob gonna happen first since lets go oras and bdsp exist, as for a port that'd be nice but like that still doesn't satisify the need of wanting more unova games, also why are you making it out that the game being old means it shouldn't get a remaster if anything that means it should get a remaster more, like when d&p released the ps3 wasn't even out yet
I too am looking forward to the upcoming X & Y remake
id rather play swsh remastered
I feel like it's not even a huge hot take to say baxcalibur is the worst pseudo-legend. The concept is cool, but execution wise it kinda falls flat with the big ice scales seeming more like undersized butterfly wings and a head that's just kinda got an ice beard? which is cool but I was under the impression that bax had ice spikes on its forehead which would have made the design at least in contention for "not the worst pseudo" but I went to look it up since I haven't actually looked at the guy in a while and he is really boring.
I actually fw most of the grass types introduced this gen (arboliva excluded). Brambleghast is a pretty cool albeit somewhat uninteresting take on the "haunted plants" thing seen a few times (even though its only real competition are the trevenant and gourgeist lines which... they're fine ig). Sinistcha is pretty cute and Hydrapple is up there in terms of dragon types I like (top 3 definitely). Meowscarada isn't my favorite starter, that spot goes to skeledirge, but the starter lines aren't exactly the weakest link in terms of gen 9 designs.
there are smogon members born during the obama administration btw
some of yall was born when bill clinton was still president
name 3 pseudos that are worse than bax
dragonite garchomp tyranitar. reason: i dont liek them
i think dragonite, hydreigon, kommo-o, and goodra have cases for being worse than bax. i still probably put bax at worst, but for any of those four, i'd get it. dragonite and hydrei for being played out (dragonite less so but it's more awkward in several ways to compensate), and kommo-o and goodra for struggling to communicate why they're interesting emphatically enough. bax has weaknesses, but i don't think these two are among them
honestly, I think Goodra should have been a Dragon/Poison type. it being mono-Dragon just feels... kinda boring.
still not really sure how Hydreigon would be considered "played out" though.
still not really sure how Hydreigon would be considered "played out" though.
dragonite slander is an offense worthy of being waterboarded and exiled to north sentinel island tbh. he's my awesome big happy dragon friend leave him be
Maybe its just that no psuedo's are bad. I like baxcalibur, the only two I could see being worse are goodra and kommo-o. And I like both of them quite a bit.
But unfortunately, something has to be last, and baxcalibur is probably the easiest to put there.
But unfortunately, something has to be last, and baxcalibur is probably the easiest to put there.
Sorry that it took a second to respond, large messages like that take some time for me to process. Thank you for including the 3 points at the top it really did help me understand. I agree that pokemon can have negative traits, but those can be subjective. I think that Kleavor's design is lacking and could've been handled better, I see that as a negative trait in that pokemon, someone else may not think that. Using Kleavor again, I do love its color pallet, I think the colors go well together, but I definitely think the poor design out weights that. I have seen many of Cacturne fans, while I think the pokemon is on the poorer side.
I personally am not one to hate any pokemon, I think no pokemon is 'bad', but that is what I think. It all comes down to opinions, and you do seem to understand that from what I gathered. I did read your full post and I hope it doesn't seem like I didn't. I am terrible at arguments and such so hope what I wrote makes sense, but basically, I do agree with you, pokemon can be bad, but it is subjective, and up to every person themselves. :)
hop off hydreigon he's my second favorite