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Unpopular opinions

tbh Mud Slap being super effective doesn't even matter that much because it's so weak. Neutral STAB Tackle is way more threatening. The problem is that dumb kids wouldn't really know that. (I was a dumb kid but also powered through Falkner with an overleveled Cyndaquil, so eh?)
 
Karxrida said:
tbh Mud Slap being super effective doesn't even matter that much because it's so weak. Neutral STAB Tackle is way more threatening. The problem is that dumb kids wouldn't really know that. (I was a dumb kid but also powered through Falkner with an overleveled Cyndaquil, so eh?)
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GSC Falkner's Pidgey spams Mud Slap when it's super effective but completely avoids it otherwise, so its type matchups matter in that sense. On average, Cyndaquil and Mareep would have a better time if Pidgey used Tackle instead.

Changing topic, I've seen quite a few people recently say that they don't really like any Battle Frontier facility except the Battle Factory. In particular, I've seen a lot of disdain for the Pike, Pyramid and Arcade, but I really like all of those! Superficially, there's an RNG factor at play that could potentially make them really frustrating, but in practice:
  • the Pike compensates by being very chill in terms of actual battles and having a natural predator in Natural Cure Starmie
  • the Pyramid gives you ample opportunity to prep for each ascent (and is also much more straightforward than it seems imo)
  • the Arcade's events are within your control and the lack of held items (barring specific roulette spins) actually removes stuff like Brightpowder bs
 
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My guess is the idea was that Mud-Slap was basically a damage dealing version of Sand-Attack which from the start was pretty strongly associated with Pidgey. Pidgey is the very first Pokemon you'll see using Sand-Attack in RBY and flavor wise it basically involves Pidgey flapping its wings and blowing sand in the opponent's face.

Mud-Slap is likely a similar flavor as to why a Gym Leader with birds has it. The birds flap their wings and blow mud in the opponent's face instead of sand, and it being mud makes it deal damage (whereas Sand-Attack doesn't deal any actual damage whatsoever).
 
Cobalt Empoleon said:
Changing topic, I've seen quite a few people recently say that they don't really like any Battle Frontier facility except the Battle Factory. In particular, I've seen a lot of disdain for the Pike, Pyramid and Arcade, but I really like all of those! Superficially, there's an RNG factor at play that could potentially make them really frustrating, but in practice:
  • the Pike compensates by being very chill in terms of actual battles and having a natural predator in Natural Cure Starmie
  • the Pyramid gives you ample opportunity to prep for each ascent (and is also much more straightforward than it seems imo)
  • the Arcade's events are within your control and the lack of held items (barring specific roulette spins) actually removes stuff like Brightpowder bs
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The Pike's kind of my favourite of the seven Emerald facilities (maybe partly because it's the easiest?) because it's not really about luck at all. The name of the game is more about managing risk than anything else, because you can to some extent force outcomes: you can't get a double battle if you only have one active party member, you can't get statused if your whole party is afflicted, and you can completely avoid a scenario you don't want if you've been told it's behind a given door. Like a good 50% of the time you should know what you'll be facing when you enter a room (or what you could be facing, which is more key).

In the Adventures manga, Lucy says the key is "making your own luck" but that's definitely more true of the Pyramid than the Pike because, as you allude to, you can drastically alter the Pyramid by preparing for each round. A lot of guides say to avoid the wild Pokemon where you can and focus on the trainers and, like, that's certainly viable (just lead with Alakazam and Teleport away from 99% of fights) but I've found a lot of success in having a team tailored to each round's wild spawns and knocking stuff out for a rapidly increased circle of visibility.

The Arcade is in your control, I like it a lot less but maybe that's just my own personal taste. I've not played it a whole lot outside of "get the symbol" runs but I find it much more dependent on the whims of RNG: early on when I first played it I remember getting stung a lot by, for instance, choosing "get an item" and receiving something like the Lagging Tail or the Iron Ball. But maybe with the benefit of study I'd have a better idea of what's optimal and what shouldn't be chosen on the roulette. I think what makes it properly difficult is at higher levels any disadvantage is usually enough to end a streak - but I suppose the true challenge, then, is having a team that's so good that it can cope with a status or a rogue field effect. Maybe Natural Cure and Guts Pokemon are the key here... I should go study the top teams on the Gen IV Frontier thread.

...oh god, am I going to get sucked into Battle Arcade now?

For me, the truly bullshit facility is the Battle Palace, because that one really is a game of luck. True, you can alter the odds by bringing a Pokemon with the correct nature and moveset, but even then they're not guaranteed to attack. Outside of giving your lead a Choice Band and hoping the move you get hits all three opponents, it really is a matter of RNG and so there's not really an incentive for me to invest time in that because there's literally nothing you can do to improve your odds. Eventually, your Hasty Pokemon which has an 88% chance to use an offensive move will get that 12% inaction more than a couple of times and you'll lose through no fault of your own.
 
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Cobalt Empoleon said:
GSC Falkner spams Mud Slap when it's super effective but completely avoids it otherwise, so its type matchups matter in that sense. On average, Cyndaquil and Mareep would have a better time if Pidgey used Tackle instead.
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No?

Stab Tackle: 35 × 1.5 = 52.5
Super Effective Mud Slap: 20 × 2 = 40

And this is gen 2, so they're both coming off the same stat. They would have their accuracy lowered but they're taking more than 25% more damage per hit.
 
AztecCroc said:
No?

Stab Tackle: 35 × 1.5 = 52.5
Super Effective Mud Slap: 20 × 2 = 40

And this is gen 2, so they're both coming off the same stat. They would have their accuracy lowered but they're taking more than 25% more damage per hit.
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Two things:

1) Adeleine is right that I meant both Cynda and Mareep would rather have Falkner prioritise the move that's stronger on paper if the alternative is getting a couple of accuracy drops
2) If you actually pull up the damage calculator for GSC and put in Falkner's Pidgey (DVs of 11, 9, 10, 7, 7 btw!), you'll see that, owing to a quirk of the damage formula at lower levels, Tackle and Mud-Slap actually deal exactly equal damage to a mon of a similar level that's neutral to the former and weak to the latter

another classic AztecCroc reply, I guess!
 
Sorry for continuing this topic

While GSC Falkner's Pidgeotto always clicks Gust, his Pidgey always spams Mud-Slap against Cyndaquil and Growlithe 100% of the time, doesn't matter if Tackle is stronger. Try using Cyndaquil against Falkner's Pidgey in GSC yourself and keep resetting until it uses Tackle (it always click Mud-Slap). Mud-slap dealing less damage doesn't matter there, the problem is moreso turning that fight into RNG fest, and its a lot worse for a Cyndaquil. Without Ember, it has to land like 2 or 3 Tackles to beat Pidgey, whereas Growlithe and Rock Throw Geodude only need one hit to beat Pidgey. If you asked me, a Cyndaquil without Ember is far worse than Chikorita against Falkner.

I have 0 problem reaching L10-L11 by Falkner and if you can reach that level at that point in HGSS, then you shouldn't have issue doing so in GSC. The problem here is moreso that some people just cared so much about not getting overleveled there. Unless you're doing a hardcore nuzlocke, you should be overleveling there anyway, and that's not a bad thing and its not like you get punished so heavily for doing so (Look, Its not a bad thing to have a L11 Geodude by Falkner). You wouldn't feel that in HGSS because Falkner is much higher leveled there.

GSC Falkner is so low-leveled, and yes its a really bad thing and just highlights Jotho's bad leveling curve. The fact that the last trainer at the sprout tower has a L10 Hoothoot compared to Falkner's L9 Pidgeotto should tell you so. Even the very first trainer at the gym has a L9 Spearow that is pretty much a mini-boss, and THAT thing has 60 Base Attack and 70 Base Speed. For reference, Pidgeotto has 60 Base Attack and 71 Base Speed.
 
Hugin said:
Mud Slap is just such a weird move to give Falkner TBH. The type coverage it gives is too much for a 1st gym, the secondary effect is broken, and it's not particularly associated with birds. I get that the flying-type options for a TM are limited(there aren't any good ones at that point), but almost anything would have been better.
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It's really not.

Here's the list of Flying TMs in GSC: :wo:

These are all the Flying moves in GSC: Mirror Move, Peck, Gust, Wing Attack, Drill Peck, Fly, and Sky Attack. Gen 2 added Aeroblast. That's it.

Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?

Mirror Move is the only reasonable option, but it's incredibly underwhelming, and it's not like "Parrot Mimicry" would fit a lot of mons either way. Mimic was already a pretty mid option in Gen 1, and that was the best version of it by a mile. This would be an even worse copy of that.

To be fair, Mud-Slap is an awful move, but it does work to give birds a fighting chance against all the Rock-types in Union Cave.

If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?
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Honestly considering in later gens Aerial Ace is a TM... Gust could have been a TM as well and fill that hole.
Low BP, accurate without secondary effect, sounds about something that could have been a TM and been on some random non-flying mons with wings or similar.
 
I've never cared that some Johto gym leaders don't use gen 2 mons. Johto and Kanto are the only two regions that are connected, so it's never bothered me.
Worldie said:
Honestly considering in later gens Aerial Ace is a TM... Gust could have been a TM as well and fill that hole.
Low BP, accurate without secondary effect, sounds about something that could have been a TM and been on some random non-flying mons with wings or similar.
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Water gun was a TM in gen 1, so Gust could have worked too. I've always wondered why Wing Attack wasn't a TM in these earlier gens.
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.
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Do you feel swapping with Whitney would make it better?
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
The answer is: "Don't have a gym *that* early".
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I don't think you're that wrong, but lvl 10 is honestly fine for a gym and more-or-less fits with the various gyms throughout the series.

More fundamentally, I think every gym should do some combination of teaching the player something and testing them on that thing. This is not something the series has ever particularly gone for, but it's in theory the point of a dungeon into boss fight setup. A first gym then should be the most basic mechancs. Falkner is weird there, since what you SHOULD do is bring Geodude/Onix/Mareep to the fight. SE STAB, resist the birds, win. But the birds have coverage that makes that annoying, arguably punishing you for using the "correct" mons. AND it's coverage that the gym trainers don't have, which means you can't prepare and adapt to it. Just a weird decision.
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
It's really not.

Here's the list of Flying TMs in GSC: :wo:

These are all the Flying moves in GSC: Mirror Move, Peck, Gust, Wing Attack, Drill Peck, Fly, and Sky Attack. Gen 2 added Aeroblast. That's it.

Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?

Mirror Move is the only reasonable option, but it's incredibly underwhelming, and it's not like "Parrot Mimicry" would fit a lot of mons either way. Mimic was already a pretty mid option in Gen 1, and that was the best version of it by a mile. This would be an even worse copy of that.

To be fair, Mud-Slap is an awful move, but it does work to give birds a fighting chance against all the Rock-types in Union Cave.

If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.
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The last sentence is key. I don't know what I'd do in GF's place to fix that gym, I just know that I don't like any of their current decisions.
Yung Dramps said:
If anything I'd say swap Falkner and Bugsy: Ledian or Ariados as first gym ace and Noctowl or Murkrow as second would work out pretty nice
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...have we ever had a version-exclusive mon as an ace? Arcanine for Blaine is the only one that comes to mind. I agree with your point, to be clear, but I'm more distracted with this question now.
 
Hugin said:
I don't think you're that wrong, but lvl 10 is honestly fine for a gym and more-or-less fits with the various gyms throughout the series.
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Falkner isn't level 10 though, Pidgeotto's level 9 (13 in HGSS).
Hugin said:
have we ever had a version-exclusive mon as an ace? Arcanine for Blaine is the only one that comes to mind. I agree with your point, to be clear, but I'm more distracted with this question now
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We've had few, aside from as you mentioned Blaine, there's:
  • Misty while not initially in RBY becomes one in gen 3 as the Staryu line can't be found in FireRed.
  • Erika in all gens, Vileplume's exclusive to Red/FireRed/LGP.
  • Tate & Liza technically, Solrock and Lunatone are version exclusives.
  • Roark, Cranidos is Diamond exclusive.
  • Fantina, Mismagius is Pearl exclusive.
  • Byron, Bastiodon is Pearl exclusive.
  • Iono, Mismagius is Violet exclusive.
  • If we're including Kahunas as Gym Leaders, Olivia has Dusk Lycanroc which is (Ultra) Moon exclusive.
Also RB Koga if you want to include third version exclusives since Weezing is unavailable in Yellow.
 
Hugin said:
I don't think you're that wrong, but lvl 10 is honestly fine for a gym and more-or-less fits with the various gyms throughout the series.
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It's less about the level range, and more about the options available.

For example, let's compare Falkner to Cheren and Viola, as they're also leaders that are battle *very* early in their games. The immediate thing you notice is that the player has more options to team build compared to GSC. The other one is that more often than not (Dammit, Riolu!) they'll have STAB options, even if they're as weak as Ember.

GSC doesn't really have either. HGSS fixes the STAB issue, but the battle is entirely different as Roost Pidgeotto doesn't play anything close to Mud-Slap Pidgeotto.

So you're in a situation that is entirely dysfunctional. The battle isn't interesting, as it's just the first of many janky bosses that Johto has to offer, your options are poor offensively and defensively, and they're also uninteresting since more likely than not you'll be using Tackle.

So they've made a boss that tries to teach you about coverage moves before you even have STAB. It just doesn't work man, it's telling that most games have at least 2 routes and a dungeon before the first gym. The problem is that even though GSC has Sprout Tower and Dark Cave, none of the options are helpful. Realistically, what is Lick Gastly and 20BP Leech Life Zubat even doing here?
 
Karxrida said:
To be fair, Roark. Plus Ariados is slow enough with a bad enough offensive typing that they could have gotten away with it, even with STAB Fury Cutter.
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1747007071442.png

The moves it'd have at this point would be... Poison Sting, Constrict, Scary Face, and String Shot.
It doesn't learn Fury Cutter. :regiF:

That's... actually pretty bad for a 1st Gym's ace at Lv.9. Incredible. Somehow, it'd be a downgrade to Falkner.:totodiLUL:
 
CynicalGiant said:
I just want to say that it has annoyed me for quite a while that Ledian and Ariados have BSTs on par with Butterfree and Beedrill as if they evolve at level 10 when they evolve at EIGHTEEN and TWENTY-TWO respectively

it makes me so mad man why did they do this lol
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Fortunately they learned their lesson. Beautifly, Dustox, Kricketune, and Vivillon all evolve at 10-12 with the 400 BST value. Vikavolt, Orbeetle*, and Lokix all get better BSTs and worse evolution levels to balance it. Interestingly, Unova doesn't really do the early-game bug-type unless you count Leavanny, which falls in the latter group.

*Dottler doesn't evolve until level 30 and has base 335 stats, btw.
 
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